Michael Moore's FB comment on the UCSB shootings,

[G_j]

With due respect to those who are asking me to comment on last night's tragic mass shooting at UCSB in Isla Vista, CA -- I no longer have anything to say about what is now part of normal American life. Everything I have to say about this, I said it 12 years ago: We are a people easily manipulated by fear which causes us to arm ourselves with a quarter BILLION guns in our homes that are often easily accessible to young people, burglars, the mentally ill and anyone who momentarily snaps. We are a nation founded in violence, grew our borders through violence, and allow men in power to use violence around the world to further our so-called American (corporate) "interests." The gun, not the eagle, is our true national symbol. While other countries have more violent pasts (Germany, Japan), more guns per capita in their homes (Canada [mostly hunting guns]), and the kids in most other countries watch the same violent movies and play the same violent video games that our kids play, no one even comes close to killing as many of its own citizens on a daily basis as we do -- and yet we don't seem to want to ask ourselves this simple question: "Why us? What is it about US?" Nearly all of our mass shootings are by angry or disturbed white males. None of them are committed by the majority gender, women. Hmmm, why is that? Even when 90% of the American public calls for stronger gun laws, Congress refuses -- and then we the people refuse to remove them from office. So the onus is on us, all of us. We won't pass the necessary laws, but more importantly we won't consider why this happens here all the time. When the NRA says, "Guns don't kill people -- people kill people," they've got it half-right. Except I would amend it to this: "Guns don't kill people -- Americans kill people." Enjoy the rest of your day, and rest assured this will all happen again very soon.

[malaise]

1. 100% accurate and deeply profound

Get thee to the greatest page

[G_j]

3. heartbroken

and deeply disturbed at the state of gun violence in America, as any sane person is.

[malaise]

60. He sure sounds fed up

because very little has changed since he addressed this topic over a decade ago.

[Kablooie]

116. California has the strictest gun control laws and it still happens here.

Gun control is not the whole answer to this plague.
Certainly more comprehensive gun control laws couldn't hurt but it won't solve the problem.

MM is right, there is something in the air in America that tells young men that killing people is the answer to their problems.

[AlinPA]

143. "..that tells young men that killing people (add "with guns") is the answer to their problems."

[Brigid]

2. Yes, Mike . . .

Unfortunately, it will all happen again very soon.

[lamp_shade]

4. Will this be the big story a week from now? I doubt it.

[malaise]

5. It can't be because as Michael Moore is pointing out

this is American foreign policy.

[newfie11]

8. Nope

Sadly it seems people are used to this.

If the killing of all those beautiful children didn't change things I don't know what will.

[RKP5637]

15. Americans are great for bemoaning tragedies, a nations of mourners and then

doing nothing. It's the SOS over and over again. US = United Stupidity.

[newfie11]

31. +1

[BlancheSplanchnik]

49. ^^^ this^^^

Bemoaning tragedies and doing nothing. Yep. Say the right smarmy words and you're good.

[hatrack]

106. Too busy looking for "closure" and "healing", I guess . . .

And while we're waiting for the Blue Bird of Happiness to flutter back into our lives, nothing happens.

[RKP5637]

118. Yep, basically collective wishful thinking across the nation. It seems is just gets worse and worse,

and for these nationally aired tragedies there are many more smaller that never catch MSM attention.

[awoke_in_2003]

59. Yep

If Sandy Hook didn't wakes us up, nothing will

[Chemisse]

164. I know. When that happened in Ct, I thought maybe we had finally reached a tipping point.

But no.

[classykaren]

34. No, it is already being pushed out by the Kardashian wedding

[LiberalElite]

78. Of course not - there's the Kardashian wedding this weekend!

[SevenSixtyTwo]

6. He started his rampage by stabbing three men to death.

Had his victims been armed, even with a little lightweight Ruger LCP in the pocket, he may have been stopped before going on to kill more people by whatever means he had available including guns, his car, knives, fists, martial arts. Disarming victims won't stop a murderer. If the day ever comes that you're face to face with someone with a knife, you'll understand. When and IF you wake up in the ER with people working to save your life, you'll think about arming yourself as well. It's a life changer.

[malaise]

7. Yep Chris Martinez who was shot in the back could have responded if he had a gun

FFS!

[AngryOldDem]

22. See my post below.

Are you really surprised?

[malaise]

28. Not in the least

[JJChambers]

30. It would never have gotten to that point

Had one of the first three victims who were stabbed to death been able to defend themselves and had killed the murderer before he went on his spree. I believe that is the point of the poster to which you were replying.

[treestar]

156. Then the first victim not having a gun

and failing to kill him first is the cause of the other murders. That is a little much.

[AtheistCrusader]

171. I think of it as a missed opportunity.

He started small, with a contact weapon. Scaled up to firearm/automobile.

I think it's unfortunate that none of the first victims managed to defend themselves, with a firearm or anything, fists, lamp, whatever. I don't blame them though. 99.9% of us get up in the morning not expecting to have to fight for our lives. And that's a reasonable mindset. And it seems he abused his relationship to them to get into a position enabling him to successfully attack with a knife.

Whole damn thing is sad no matter how you look at it. Cops had an opportunity, missed it. His psychologists had an opportunity, missed it.

Shit.

[valerief]

84. +1 gazillion!!!!

[MrMickeysMom]

92. FFS, indeed….

What the fuck is wrong with some of these posters, anyway? I see the low post counts and cringe.

[malaise]

97. We know

;

[thesquanderer]

10. Pepper spray can stop someone with a knife.

Guns are not the only means of defense, especially against people who aren't attacking you with guns.

But also, no one is saying that restricting guns will end murder. But it will go a long away toward ending "high volume" murder, indiscriminate murder, murder that can be achieved at a distance. And also "accidental" murder, whether it's kids finding guns, or people not knowing they're loaded when manipulating them.

No rule or law is perfect. Is it possible that more restrictive gun laws could possibly cost someone their life? Yes, it is possible. But we are learning that many more innocent lives will be taken if we don't better regulate guns.

[Le Taz Hot]

13. And the gungeoners show up

even in this thread.

<flush>

[RKP5637]

16. Yep, they appear, SOS, defending the tragedy, no solution. n/t

[AngryOldDem]

27. SO fucking SICK of that argument.

It is just as much a part of the problem.

[valerief]

85. Their gun lust is as obsessive as our murderer du jour's hatred of women

and belief he was destined to win MegaMillions.

[tofuandbeer]

100. Whenever they hear about an horrid trajedy like this, their first thought is...

"MY GUNS!"
Sick, selfish bastards.

[lastlib]

165. The first words out of George Bush's mouth.....

...when asked to comment about the VA Tech massacre: "I support the right of the American people to keep and bear arms." Period. NOT A F*CKING WORD of sympathy for the victims--it was about saving the guns. "Sickening" doesn't begin to describe it. And no words can describe the seething hatred I have for the sociopathic basturds who think that way.

[tofuandbeer]

172. :O I didn't know that. What a screwup of a President he was.

[pangaia]

32. You are suggesting that everyone walk around with a loaded gun?

Who knows which of 'us' will be attacked, or when. Therefore the only solution is for everyone to carry a gun.

[WinkyDink]

50. More---He's suggesting we all walk around our HOMES while armed! These men were roommates!

[valerief]

86. I think he'd like us to have guns implanted in our foreheads, so we'd

be ready at all times to murder. God help us if we sneeze the things go off, though.

[treestar]

157. How did he kill three of them

You'd think the second and third one could have fought back.

I think the manifesto said he would lure them one by one, so they may not have been roommates.

[WinkyDink]

190. They were his roommates. A knife in the back is pretty silent. Anyway, Google: "Richard Speck."

Roommates: http://hollywoodlife.com/2014/05/25/elliot-rodger-roommates-names-police-identify/

Speck: http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/a-mass-murderer-leaves-eight-women-dead

[treestar]

193. I've since found out two were roommates and one was a visitor

They might have been in different rooms.

I used to wonder how OJ (or whoever) managed it, too. Seems like it has to be at separate times and right, the first strike would have to be disabling.

[bearssoapbox]

175. Not only do we need to carry a loaded gun but...

wouldn't the next logical step, after ccw and open carry, be "open pointing"?

[bravenak]

177. Stealing this one.

It's perfectly appropriate.

[WinkyDink]

48. How stupid. AS IF his stabbing victims had time to reach into their, what? Pockets? for a gun, aim,

cock, and shoot! Do gun-owners normally walk around their own places armed?

[handmade34]

51. normally

I try to be civil and nice… but you sir, have no idea about the content of what Michael Moore has said and what is really the problem…

a life changer would be the United States doing some serious self-reflection and acting to change our culture of violence and exploitation

[Hoyt]

54. Do we know if he had his gun at that time?

[VanillaRhapsody]

56. I have faced a crazy drug addicted ex-husband who put a sawwed off between my eyes....

and I STILL think we need stronger gun laws!

YOUR little theory is severely flawwed...

[Lefta Dissenter]

71. Vanilla

[53tammy]

88. VanillaRhapsody you make a good point.

Having a gun pulled on me has not changed my mind about carrying a gun. With a gun in every home it is just to easy to use. in a domestic despite, road rage, or a argument over a neighbors dog. Just Google Killed in Dog Poop Dispute and you will be shocked.

[alsame]

64. Yes, we should

all walk around like this at all times. First graders too.

[IMG][/IMG]

[Hoyt]

119. Sadly, there are plenty of gunners who prepare themselves for just that.

Heck, one of the gungeoneers posted about his new lethal accessory -- a "red dot sight" -- responding to the question why he needed something like that -- "I never know when I might need to clear a room."

This has gone too far.

[llmart]

141. Ironically, those are the sort of guys who......

never leave their LazyBoy recliner in their living room and yet they try to act like they're confronted by rabid killers on the loose every day.

[Maedhros]

162. People like that guy buy guns and get their concealed carry permits

just aching to be able to use them someday.

[Hoyt]

167. I know it's a Catch-22, but I think if one is attracted to that kind of stuff, they should be

prohibited from being near guns.

[yuiyoshida]

136. That seems

like a NRA wet dream.

[AAO]

99. It's the victims fault - as usual.

[Scootaloo]

112. "Had his victims been armed..."

You really have no fucking clue how tiresome that bullshit talking point is, do you?

[AAO]

198. If you take that POV to its logical conclusion

It's stupid, and downright un-American not to be armed to protect your family. And I say FUCKEMALL!!

[hunter]

117. I have zero respect for fearful men or their guns.

Have a nice day.

[Logical]

120. LOL, most people do not want or need a gun 100% of the time. nt

[morningfog]

123. What steaming pile of shit and lies. ALL of it. Get lost.

[arcane1]

128. What a sad, pathetic way to live, in constant fear and terror.

If I'm ever so terrified that I have to walk around in my home with a gun on me at all times, I hope someone does stab me to death, because I would obviously be miserable

[SevenSixtyTwo]

130. Apparently,

I'm not the one who's sad, pathetic and miserable in constant fear and terror. I'm quite happy. We just returned from the beach. Had a hell of a good time with a lot of good people. The beaches are packed!

[SomethingFishy]

149. How many people got stabbed?

So how many needed their guns?

Do you really think walking around armed 24/7 is the solution to what ails this nation?

[Fortinbras Armstrong]

134. In other words, the solution to gun violence is more guns

Even a gun nut should see the disconnect.

[SevenSixtyTwo]

144. Sitting here at the computer,

no. In the middle of the night when someone is breaking in, yes. When you call 911, when the police finally arrive, they will approach the situation with guns drawn. Hopefully, in the time it takes the police to stop what they're doing, drive to your house, assess the situation and take action, it won't be too late and it won't be a rape murder case. For several minutes, it's up to you to protect yourself and your family.

[Fortinbras Armstrong]

176. In other words, you are telling us to be afraid

Of something that might happen. Tell me, has anyone ever actually broken into your home?

No, the solution to gun violence is fewer guns, not more. But you gun nuts consider that killing a few dozen school children is a small price to pay to hold onto your guns. As I said, you don't give a damn about the health and safety of anyone other than yourself. For if you did, you would be calling for gun control.

[SevenSixtyTwo]

184. Not afraid. Prepared.

I wear my seatbelt and have for decades just in case of an accident. They're quite common as are home break-ins. Fewer guns as in no guns in the hands of criminals and mentally unstable people is the answer. I'm not a gun nut and my guns had nothing to do with killing of school children. Mrs Lanza should have had her guns locked in a safe out of reach of her son. Our son is retired military and even he doesn't have access to our safe. She paid the ultimate price as did many others. Leaving firearms laying around for easy access by kids or neighborhood scofflaws should be illegal. You don't know what I give a damn about but thanks for the personal attack. Says more about you than it does me.

[treestar]

155. So you'd require every college student to go around armed?

Just in case? That seems extreme. We should be able to go out without a gun.

[Maedhros]

161. Well, that was a repugnant post.

The idea, you fool, is to live in a country which doesn't require one to be armed to be safe. Other countries do it, why not ours?

/ignore.

[99Forever]

9. In one simple sentence:

"The gun, not the eagle, is our true national symbol." Michael Moore has laid out the results of the NRA's war on America.

The blood of every gun death, is on the hands of every screaming 2nd proponent. Every fucking one of them.

[joching]

11. Stats on Canada vs USA?

MM seems to be getting stats from someplace other than the WashPost or wikiP on the per capita ownership of guns. It is 88.8 guns per 100 people (USA) vs. 30.8 (Canada). See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country

[dawg]

23. It is still possible that a higher % of Canadians could have a gun in their home.

The U.S. per capita number could be skewed by gun collectors who have many, many guns.

[pangaia]

35. eeeeeeeiiiiii

PLEASE. PLEASE,,give a warning when you are going to post that photo!!!

Damn dog, you ruined my breakfast.

[dawg]

36. I'm sorry.

Since that photo was taken, I have also gotten a Ruger 22/10 and a Playstation 4.

[pangaia]

40. Apology accepted.

On my second coffee..
I don't even know what a Ruger 22/10 is..
(Don't tell me,)

[dawg]

41. Just for clarification's sake ...

I was joking about the Ruger and Playstation. (That isn't really me )

[pangaia]

42. Sure you were..

[dawg]

43. Well ...

I've lost a few pounds since that photo was taken. And I have a much better hair cut.

[pangaia]

44. Stop Stop

Stop answering me...

[snort]

69. You're Beautiful

just the way you are!

[dawg]

70. Thank you.

Do you mind if I show this post to my Mom so she'll stop making fun of me?

[Doctor_J]

151. Do you still have the strat? Looks like an Albert Lee

love Albert

[Enthusiast]

101. You find the attractive patriot repulsive?

[classykaren]

38. There it is Sex,Guns & RocknRoll lol

[calimary]

80. Hmmm... holding his gun next to his dick (or where his dick should be?)...

Utterly revolting. Yeah, you sure are some big hot ferocious More-Rambo-Than-Thou macho man, there, pal.

Mongo impressed... NOT!!!!!

[llmart]

142. Well, at least he can find his gun......

with that horrendous beer belly I highly doubt he can even find his dick.

That is the ugliest damned guy and yet I'll bet he thinks he's Hawt

[cantbeserious]

12. K & R

eom

[TBF]

14. Sadly he's right. nt

[redruddyred]

17. michael moore is a national treasure.

we are so lucky to have him. thanx, mike.

[Mira]

66. I was about to say that and see you already did. I also call him

the national conscience.

[ananda]

18. Moore is, so sadly, right.

..

[ancianita]

19. We have to face that we ourselves want the 2nd Amendment. But we must change it. We must.

We must face that we must make the Second Amendment's change a litmus test for office.

We must face that gun manufacturers in every state will not close down, that people don't want to lose their gun manufacturer jobs, that gun violence is a major staple of our entertainment.

Moore is right. We need to vote out every congress person who takes gun lobby money.

[Eleanors38]

20. Does MM still have his own Armed bodyguard? nt

[Nuclear Unicorn]

45. He should also hire an editor.

He talks about a nation manipulated into fear but then spends hundreds of words telling us how we should all be scared.

[WinkyDink]

52. You mean someone actually employed to protect and defend?

[Eleanors38]

63. Whatever. If he deems it necessary, he should...

just don't prevent other, less-well-heeled Americans from defending themselves with similar weaponry. Moore does make a good case that America is quite hypocritical in how we purposefully don't live up to our espoused standards.

[thucythucy]

79. Michael Moore received literally hundreds of death threats

after his outspoken opposition to the war in Iraq.

To expect him not to take these seriously--especially considering how many Teabaggers LOVE to own and display their weaponry--would be borderline suicidal.

I doubt most gun owners are under the same sort of threat.

President Obama supports stricter gun laws. Do you think he's a hypocrite as well, for accepting armed Secret Service protection for himself and his family?

[Eleanors38]

105. Re-read. If he needs armed protection, he has a right to it.

Just don't deny that protection to an old fart who cannot drive or afford a guard, to the single head-of-household who has to walk 4 blks at midnight after getting off a bus, to someone in Section 8 housing, to someone who must travel for a living, to anyone who is potentially at risk of attack. Moore doesn't have to directly face his moral dilemma. Someone else's "face" is there to keep him from the mirror.

[thucythucy]

135. I have family and friends who live in Section 8 housing

and oddly enough none of them feel compelled to own a gun. Neither have I ever felt a need to have one, when going for a visit. It's kind of a weird comment to make, I think, to use people in "section 8 housing" to justify allowing easy--too easy--access to guns.

But that's the argument, isn't it? The world is a hyper-dangerous place, and so we all need guns to protect ourselves against--mostly--other people with guns. And it's now to the point that there are so many guns sloshing around this continent that someone as obviously dysfunctional and hate filled as this loser is able to get his hands on one, with horrific consequences. With the result that we periodically have these massacres.

If there were fewer guns--and thus fewer hate-filled sociopaths able to access guns--maybe Michael Moore wouldn't need armed protection.

Just a thought.

[Eleanors38]

139. "weird comment:" Are you driving at something Thucy?

I can give you more situations to cover a number of cultural contingencies; in fact, I thought I did. So, the "weirdness" rings truer on your part.

In all my years at DU, never have I seen a group of people (gun-banners & controllers) rush to accuse another group (80,000,000 gun owners) of promoting fear, even while "awash" in their own. Get a gun for yourself, or don't. It 's your choice.
It may surprise you, but I and my gun-totin' friends sleep well at night. Part of the reason is that violent crime, gun-homicides in particular, are down, and have been so for years. And anyone who gets past the Flash-Bang of the nightly news can discover most of the violent crime occurs in limited areas in metro areas, and to avoid those areas. On the whole, this country is more peaceful than some here give it credit for. (Frankly, we need more of a political ruckus over decent wages, job security, student debt, public works, NSA abuses and a host of other issues.)

I'm glad Moore can avail himself of armed protection. I think all law-abiding citizens should be able to avail themselves of armed protection if they so choose. It's a right, not a privilege for elites.

Thank you for the discussion.

[llmart]

145. Sociopaths sleep well at night, too.

It's due to lack of a conscience.

[Eleanors38]

148. Well, I wouldn't know.

[WinkyDink]

192. Sorry, but famous people are different from you and me.

[Eleanors38]

196. Yes, I must remind myself of that.

[BrotherIvan]

131. You mean he has to have bodyguards to protect himself?

From who I wonder? Would the answer be PARANOID GUN NUTS?

Maybe because gunners should stop spouting about their "rights" in threads about people who have been shot. Do you think maybe you could stop thinking about your gun for one second and think about all the lives that are lost daily? Because I've never seen you argue any differently and it's frankly disturbing.

[AngryOldDem]

21. Moore is absolutely right.

There is nothing more to be said about mass shootings.

Until society steps up and enacts serious gun reform and destigmatizes mental health and makes quality mental health care more accessible, mass shootings will continue to be part and parcel of our lives. When the common answer always seems to be to just arm everyone else, and make guns more accessible -- which always seems to be the theme of most debate after these tragedies -- then what more can anyone say? Why all the shock and horror that someone else has picked up a weapon and mowed down countless others? Seriously -- what the fuck do we expect in this country?

If Sandy Hook didn't wake this country up, then nothing ever will. Unfortunately, a lot -- A LOT -- of innocents will pay with their lives for this ignorance until people wake up. IF they ever wake up.

[gratuitous]

29. Because what we're doing now isn't working

What's that saying about doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting different results?

[drm604]

37. So what should we do differently?

Obviously we need to change something, but what? Arming more people? Just because what we're currently doing isn't working, that doesn't mean that there's only one other answer - arm everybody.

Sure, it's possible that someone with a weapon could have stopped this, but that doesn't logically lead to the idea that arming more of the populace will lead to less gun deaths.

It could be that arming everyone may lead to an occasional save, but would overall increase gun violence. To me that seems to be the most likely outcome. You may disagree, but we don't know the answer do we? And it's not like we can take back all of those additional guns if it turns out that you're wrong.

Saying that arming more people would lead to less deaths is like saying we should give nuclear weapons to all countries to prevent war. Would anyone support a policy like that?

I don't know what the answer is, but I do know that arming more people isn't likely to be it.

[LAGC]

68. You know, if the gun control side (led by Mayor Bloomberg) would just STFU for awhile and quit...

...trying to capitalize off each tragedy, we could really make some progress, just by stopping the knee-jerk response of folks wanting to run out and buy more guns every time the threat of new restrictions manifests itself.

Yes, the NRA is a big part of the problem, but they'd have no voice if not for the very real prospect of new restrictions being foisted on law-abiding gun owners.

As more people move from rural areas into more densely populated areas, they tend to get rid of their guns on their own.

But ring that clarion bell and start calling for more controls and its circle-the-wagons time, and double-down on MOAR GUNZ.

As President Obama so succinctly put it during his 2008 run: &quot in desperate times)...they cling to guns or religion..."

[G_j]

83. are you kidding?

without any help, the NRA consistently makes up false yarns about the government taking everyone's guns away.
And after waiting the traditional 72 hours, will jump to exploit any tragedy.

[LAGC]

94. And why do so many gun owners listen to the NRA?

Their propaganda would gain no traction if not for outspoken politicians (Feinstein, Schumer, Bloomberg, etc.) confirming their worst fears by calling for outright bans.

Look: the bottom-line is that gun control will never be as high of a priority of issue with the left as it is with the right.

It's a wedge-issue that plays well in more populated districts, but costs us rural seats all the time. Especially in non-presidential election years like in 2010 and likely this year as well.

If we really want to reduce the proliferation of guns in society, we need to quit feeding the bonfire that's fueling all the demand.

[G_j]

125. most anyone who has dared say anything, has called for very reasonable, common sense gun regulations

but most keep silent because of the bullying tactics of the NRA. So you want the very few who say anything at all, to shut up, because the NRA will twist what they say into something it's not?
That's a complete FAIL!

[LAGC]

127. If only that were the case...

Unfortunately, time and time again, these folks calling for "reasonable restrictions" have revealed their true motives:

You simply aren't going to get rural voters on board when you play right into the NRA's hands.

[G_j]

129. I believe she is talking about assault weapons.

This clip is perfectly edited to make one think she wants to ban ALL guns. You have illustrated my point.

[LAGC]

133. No, you're right, she was in that clip.

But the problem is, when you start talking about wanting to ban an entire class of firearms, it only gives credence to the NRA's talking point of "where will it end?" When you claim you are only for "reasonable restrictions" like universal background checks, it rings hollow when you were just a few years earlier talking about wanting total bans on certain firearms.

The biggest disconnect here is that rifles ("assault weapons" or not) only account for a very small percentage of the total gun violence out there. The biggest killers, by far, are HANDGUNS, which the gun control lobby USED to be all about wanting to ban, before HCI (Handgun Control, Inc.) realized it was a futile cause, and changed their name to the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence instead to try to soften their image. But again, we're back to these groups calling for "reasonable restrictions" now, when just a few years earlier they were talking about outright bans. People just aren't buying it.

The bottom-line though is that the gun lobby just has way more passion (and money) behind their side of the argument than the gun control folks do. And the political reality is that there's no way to win back control of the House without rural support. So getting into a big pissing match with the NRA is always going to result in lopsided results, unless the political calculus ever changes at the national level. I just don't see that happening any time soon.

Don't get me wrong -- I sympathize with much of MM's argument in your OP, but its pretty clear that even he realizes that pursuing stricter gun control has become a fool's errand. I mean, not to sound callous, but if 20 dead first graders couldn't get even universal background checks passed in this country, what on Earth do you think will? And how does it bode for any stricter gun controls beyond?

[SomethingFishy]

152. In one single post you managed to say that:

"when you start talking about wanting to ban an entire class of firearms, it only gives credence to the NRA's talking point of "where will it end?"

And

"I mean, not to sound callous, but if 20 dead first graders couldn't get even universal background checks passed in this country, what on Earth do you think will?"


A lot of people in this country are for reasonable gun control legislation. I don't want to deny your right to own a gun, but I also don't want to live in the wild west, so some restrictions should be in place. I'm sure any reasonable gun owner would agree. This is why we pay our representatives, to represent opposing sides of an issue and hammer out a middle ground that both sides can agree on. However, this only works if both sides are reasonable, and "where will it end" is not a reasonable position. Just as "ban all guns" is not a reasonable position. The problem lies in the fact that "ban all guns" is a deeply minority position, while "where will it end" is the damn battle cry for the right. Any attempt to produce any legislation at all has been met with vicious opposition. Just ask the 2 Colorado Senators who were recalled after trying to pass restrictions on guns.
The logical extreme of the gun control debate is "do you think anyone should be allowed to own a nuclear weapon?" The obvious answer is no, and therefore you believe in some limits on weapons ownership. Now we just have to decide where the line is drawn. But we can't if the 2nd amendment champs aren't willing to come to the table.

[quakerboy]

174. Disagree. We might be better off in the wild west

At least as far as the attitude toward guns goes. Mythos aside, they knew that carrying loaded pistols into town was a recipe for trouble. Carrying it out on the range for work purposes was one thing, but if you went to Tombstone, you were legally obligated to check your pistol with the sheriff and you didn't get it back till you were headed out of town.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

188. Because they're easily-led, fear-driven dumbfucks.

[Enthusiast]

102. It's a gravy train.

1) Strike fear in the hearts of a simple people. Tell them the liberals are going to take their guns.

2) Manufacture plenty of extra guns and ammunition.

3) Set up a secret account in the Caiman Islands. You're going to need somewhere to put all your millions of dollars.

[AngryOldDem]

104. ^^This^^

At the end of the day, NRA leadership could give a rat's ass about the "rights" of its membership, as long as the membership keeps ponying up the dues and and convinces even more of their sheeple friends to do the same. It's like any other conservative group that targets "simple people" -- wrap the cause (whatever it is) around the flag, Mom, and apple pie; make them part with their hard-earned cash so that their rights continue to be "protected" from a tyrannical "guvmint"; and laugh all the way to the bank.

Quite the scam that seems to be working out rather well. Wayne and all the gun manufacturers rake in huge profits, while innocents continue to get killed. What a deal.

[Enthusiast]

107. I would imagine that manufacturing guns is

one of the few growth opportunities left in American manufacturing. Just a guess.

[AngryOldDem]

110. Sadly, I think you're right. n/t

[AngryOldDem]

108. I seriously don't know if there is any answer anymore.

The last possible chance for any meaningful discussion about guns and gun laws died when Congress refused to take up the issue after Sandy Hook.

Of course more guns aren't the answer. But if that's the society we've created, then we're just going to have to live with it. No wonder Michael Moore seems to be walking away from the discussion (at least in this case).

I find the whole idea of a Wild West culture sickening beyond belief -- that's where this "arm everybody and nobody will get shot" bullshit started -- but that's where we're headed. If we aren't already there.

[AlinPA]

153. Well said. "--what the f--- do we expect in this country?" Indeed. In this gun culture, people seem

to have accepted the butchery as a way of life in order to protect the right to bear arms. It trumps everything, even the country's morals.

[treestar]

158. they are insane

They continue to insist more people having guns will result in fewer shootings!

[KansDem]

24. It's quite telling for a country where 20 first-graders are wantonly slaughtered...

...by a psychopath with an assault rifle, that the NRA could hold a gun-fest rally less than 5 months after the tragedy.

http://www.nbcnews.com/video/nbc-news-channel/51759987#51759987

It leaves one speechless and in disbelief...

[The Wizard]

25. Are we lemmings? (NT)

[villager]

76. Well, look at the rote, defend-guns-at-all-costs lemming posts in this very thread

I mean, if you have NRA-babble here at an "Underground," really, they've successfully manipulated enough people everywhere to keep anything meaningful from being done....

[mountain grammy]

26. "it can't happen to your child until it does" is what Chris Martinez's father said.

No one has a right to live when gun ownership and use by everyone is promoted and encouraged. Everyone, including those who are unstable or violent or the children of the wealthy elite. There's no way this kid's family didn't have the means to access mental health care for their son, just like the Lanza family.

[spanone]

33. K&r...

[Warren Stupidity]

39. Kick.

Soon enough this discussion will be banned from gd. Part and parcel of the bipartisan consensus to do nothing about "our little problem." Gun control is the embarrassing uncle of politics.

[G_j]

57. sort of mirrors

the national picture, sweep it under the carpet ASAP.

[Gidney N Cloyd]

46. Minor correction-- a rare exception to his claim 'none are committed by women'

Brenda Ann 'I don't like Mondays' Spencer

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleveland_Elementary_School_shooting_%28San_Diego%29

Other than that minor quibble, excellent statement.

[Orrex]

58. Rare indeed

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hetzel_Union_Building_shooting#1996_Shooting

Off the top of my head I can't think of any others in the past few decades.

[valerief]

89. So rare as to be statistically non-existent. nt

[Gidney N Cloyd]

114. No offense intended.

[llmart]

146. And maybe that is the beginning of the solution......

We just need more women (sane ones, not the low-IQ types like Palin) in power - in Congress, in the Oval Office, in State legislatures, the whole nine yards.

[valerief]

199. I don't care if they're male, female, or intersex. I just want progressives representing us. nt

[heaven05]

47. bravo

he's never had a problem speaking truth to the powers that be. A true american.

[flvegan]

53. He's almost got that right.

I like his excerpt: "Guns don't kill people, Americans kill people." as it puts a finer point on it. But again, only almost right. How it really should read is "Guns don't kill people, selfish people kill people." Or for that matter, "Guns don't kill, selfish people do."

Lets face it, if one uses a gun for any sort of violence, save for defense (or survival...yes subsistence hunters, I see you), then one is a selfish asshole.

Ego is a funny thing.

[calimary]

95. My comment usually is - "guns don't kill people? People kill people?" Well, yes. People kill people.

WITH GUNS.

[lostincalifornia]

55. For not having anything to say about, this is perhaps his most eloquent description of it

[asiliveandbreathe]

61. Michael is so right!

we are in a war zone of our own making..we all share the burden and until we put our guns down and use our voices and votes, to rid our nation of these NRA A+ rated politicians, this will certainly happen again - America, wake up!

[renate]

124. agreed, and

Welcome to DU!

[SunSeeker]

181. Welcome to DU, asiliveandbreath!

[toby jo]

62. Our spiritual leaders have to step up to the plate, en masse.

After Newtown, the Pepsident Preacher from Texas was on the morning news show and when asked if this showed we needed better gun control, he said, "Oh, no, I don't think it's that." With this kind of a message coming down from "on high", xstians won't budge.

We need our REAL spiritual leaders to step up to the plate, the ones who have a conscience and who aren't afraid of the NRA. Men and woman of every faith, getting together, and changing the message, enacting a new and better amendment.

[treestar]

65. What nation wasn't founded on violence?

Using this to turn it into a "how bad is America" thing is disgusting. Stick to arguing for gun control. Geez.

[Ash_F]

111. As soon as we put this useless boomer congress in the dustbin of history. /nt

[navarth]

137. what do you mean 'boomer' congress? nt

[Ash_F]

150. 50-70 year olds. /nt

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baby_boomers

[Skittles]

159. why smear boomers?

that Congress doesn't represent me any more than it represents you

[Ash_F]

160. The sooner that generation is gone from power, the better.

Agree or disagree?

[Skittles]

163. I don't agree with smearing boomers, no, not at ALL

[Ash_F]

168. You dodged. /nt

[Skittles]

169. done here

[Ash_F]

170. You sure are. /nt

[navarth]

180. ah.

Stereotyping and ageism. Got it.

Unlikely there would be any use in talking to you anymore.

[AngryOldDem]

186. I'd be curious to know how he/she thinks the younger generation will be better.

Will they be any less beholden to moneyed and special interest groups (and a Supreme Court that continually enables said groups) than the current Congress?

That's the problem, right there. At the end of the day, money rules. Until that changes (as in an overturn of Citizens United, for starters) public interest will always take a back seat to Wayne LaPierre and his ilk.

[Ash_F]

189. Fair point, but generations are different

The generation before them passed civil rights reform, welfare reform, clean air ect. The one before that passed the New Deal.

There won't be gun reform with this congress. This congress is going to be this congress for another 20 years. Sorry.

Yes, I do think the next generation will do better.

[Ash_F]

187. Not at all

In 20-30 years, their children will be the same age and in congress and then there will be significant movement in this country. Generationism?

In any case, I am so disgusted with them that whatever you accuse me of falls flat. They have failed their children and their grand children.

Here's a prediction. The first significant national gun regulations in this country will come about 20 years from now. When that comes to pass, you and I can have a nice debate on why it turned out that way. If you are still around.

Cheers.

[navarth]

195. pfft.

Dude.

Wanna be a dick? Knock yourself out, but do it alone. You either want to make trouble, or you're really fucking stupid. Either way: Bye.

[Ash_F]

197. You injected yourself into this subthread

If you can't handle it, feel free to bow out.

Your righteous indignation has been duly noted, however.

[justiceischeap]

138. It's a valid question... HOWEVER

most other nations that were founded on violence matured and left the violence and paranoia behind. Frankly, with Americas' propensity towards violence, whether domestically or abroad, it makes us seem like the kid in the room who rather shoot you in the face than take their ball and go home.

[joeybee12]

67. So fucking accurate it hurts...knr

[EEO]

72. Well said.

[Iliyah]

73. The loudest so called spiritual "Christian" leaders

are hate mongers. They live by the love for guns because of course JC would approve. They hate gays, abortion, women, immigrates, and anyone who does not toll the line with them.

When will it be enough? I felt hope for major gun law changes (Sandy Hook). But the GOPers hate children as well.

Europe sent their criminals here. Persecuted religious groups travelled here for "freedom". Native Americans were slaughtered and displaced. Slaves were brought to work to fields and were treated as non-humans. And today, It looks like we are going backwards - back to the wild wild west.

[dhill926]

75. cannot K and R this enough…

[maced666]

77. 'Nearly all of our mass shootings are by angry or disturbed white males'

Moore is having trouble with his numbers. Again.
He correctly identified males but "African-American males have committed 15% of mass shootings while making up only 12.5% of the overall male population."
http://www.the-broad-side.com/race-gender-gun-violence

snip-If we really want a male demographic at which to wag our proverbial finger we have to look to Asian men, who have committed mass shootings at more than twice the rate at which they appear in the overall male population. A mere 10% of the total shootings, sure, but when you consider Asian males make up less than 5% of the United States’ male population it’s no statistic at which to thumb your nose.
more-Of all the men in the United States, regardless of their skin color, less than four one hundred thousandths of a percent of them have committed mass gun violence in the past forty years.
If you’re wondering what that looks like by the numbers, it looks like this: 0.00004%

Nice job, Michael. You've successfully grouped the race of white men in a neat little bag for you to punch over and over all the while accomplishing little other than showing you know how to break down everything you see by race and groups.
Not very progressive of you.
He could have avoided all this by sticking to male/mentally disturbed. BOOM. There's your demographic.
By throwing the in 'white' he provides misdirection and incomplete information, as I just proved.
Fail.

[LAGC]

82. Welcome to DU.

I'm curious about your numbers... besides the Virginia Tech shooter (Cho), how many other mass-shooters have been Asian?

[valerief]

91. Gun lust makes men crazy. Stop gun lust. nt

[Ash_F]

113. That source seems to badly under-report mass shootings.

Check out this link

http://www.reddit.com/r/GunsAreCool/wiki/2014massshootings

[michaz]

81. He couldn't be more right!

Just reading that line for line sure puts it in perspective.

[smallcat88]

87. Another mass shooting

another flurry of media coverage and the usual arguments from both sides of the gun debate. Then on to the next story. Moore is right, nothing will be done until we start talking with our votes. Polls show that only a very small percentage of Dems and moderates consider gun laws a priority when they vote. Not so on the right.

Until mainstream American make gun control a priority when they vote, nothing will change.

[LittleBlue]

90. "Nearly all of our mass shootings are by angry or disturbed white males."- whaaat?

This guy wasn't a white male. Neither was the guy at Virginia Tech. Neither was the Fort Hood shooting, that was by Hasan. The more recent Fort Hood shooting was by Ivan Lopez. The Washington Naval Yard shooting was done by Aaron Alexis, a black man. The Beltway Snipers were both black. Those are just off the top of my head.

As for shootings that aren't high profile:

Of the offenders for whom race was known, 53.4 percent were black, 44.3 percent were white, and 2.3 percent were of other races. The race was unknown for 4,228 offenders.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2012/crime-in-the-u.s.-2012/offenses-known-to-law-enforcement/expanded-homicide


What an absurd statement by Moore. This is an issue of mental health, not race.

[valerief]

93. Some of us are so sick of the "it's mental health" gungeoneer gun lusters. nt

[LittleBlue]

96. I'm not a gungeoneer

and I agree with reasonable gun control laws.

This whackjob wrote a 140 page manifesto of mostly insane ramblings. He has untreated mental mental health problems. Having insufficient gun laws shouldn't mean ignoring our inadequate mental health services in the US.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

98. Expect a bunch of White Male denial.

[shanti]

103. yeah, i was waiting for it too

and sure enough, they came

[Gumboot]

109. One aspect of mass killings that is never discussed...

... is that the damaged young men who carry them out are almost always on heavy doses of SSRIs.

Millions of Americans are prescribed these psychoactive drugs for depression, anxiety, and other mental health conditions.

These drugs can cause violent rage, the destruction of perspective, and the reasoning process in the users. I've seen it myself many times. I now call them harmaceuticals.

Throw a gun and a grudge into the mix, and... we see the outcome over and over again.

The NRA is only a part of the problem. Drug companies that pay doctors to prescribe SSRIs have escaped scrutiny thus far.

[Hoyt]

122. +1 Unfortunately, lots of gun fanciers are on those and other meds that can cause aggression.

Yet we ignore it.

While this was a young man, there are lots of older gun owners who should have them taken away, just like the keys to the car.

[DeadLetterOffice]

126. You do get the whole "correlation doesn't equal causation" thing, right?

"I've seen it myself many times" is not actually empirically sound data.

[uriel1972]

173. Umm....

I'm on a gaggle of meds and I hang out with people on a gaggle of meds and as far as I can tell none of us have carried out mass shootings or know of anyone on these meds carry out mass shootings. I have seen this time and time again.

Maybe, just maybe, that is because I live in a country with strict gun controls and barely adequate psychiatric facilities. But what would I know, I'm a crazy person on meds.

[goldent]

115. The gun issue is part of American culture

and I don't expect a resolution in my lifetime. All sides have emotional and political investments that they aren't about to give up. It all supports keeing the status quo.

[AlinPA]

147. Killing with guns is part of American culture. That's what America excels in.

[aikoaiko]

121. That sounds like a surrender to me.

[TeamPooka]

132. K&R!

[Boomerproud]

140. "Enjoy the rest of your day and rest assured this will all happen again very soon."

How can anyone argue with those words? I've had it with flags and stuffed animals and candlelight vigils and all the other crap we've seen hundreds of times. Enough is enough and I have run out of patience. It's way past time to have gotten our act together.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

154. Until the country wakes up it will happen again and again

[underthematrix]

166. Thank you Michael Moore

[fujiyama]

178. I'm not the biggest MM fan...

but it's hard to disagree with him on this.

We live in a very sick society.

And we're basically numb to this constant violence, almost like those coming from war-torn countries.

[Hekate]

179. I've been heartsick about this for days. Moore is right. nt

[workinclasszero]

182. The NRA\white teabagger militia is a terrorist front

The gun humping nazis have this country in its death grip and no one is safe.

Now the brownshirts are carrying assault rifles into restaurants and scaring the life out of children for God's sake!

The dirty bastards could care less.

[Laelth]

183. Nearly 200 posts, and not a word about ...

... men.

Nearly all of our mass shootings are by angry or disturbed white males. None of them are committed by the majority gender, women. Hmmm, why is that?

Moore asks the right question, but then drops it like a hot potato, preferring, instead, to focus on the guns. I see this whole mess as a gender issue. Not like I have any answers, but I think it's tragic that we ignore the number of men who are quite clearly (and sometimes violently) expressing anger and frustration. I think this situation will continue to get worse until it's addressed.

-Laelth

[SevenSixtyTwo]

185. Women

have been known to kill their own kids. They drown them, poison them, stab them, and recently a woman shot her two teenage kids. Guns are just one of the tools people can use to kill other people. Getting rid of guns doesn't solve the problem. Many other tools are available. Cars and pools kill far more kids than firearms yet people aren't about to slow down or secure their pools. Oh but I have a car and I like to haul ass so we're not going to address that child danger. Pit Bulls are cool too so I'm going to have one regardless of the danger to the kids or neighbors. Firearms are easy. Lock them in a safe when not in the immediate possession and control of their owner.

[WinkyDink]

191. I think we all are aware of the prison stats.

[Laelth]

194. Prison stats ...

... mortality rates, on-the-job injury rates, college graduation rates ... I could go on and on.

By nearly every measure of social statistics, it's worse to be a man.

But, really, we don't want to talk about that, do we?



-Laelth