Question about Those that are making statements about Elliot Rodger:

[Raine1967]

Things like, Was he gay; Was he an MRA, was he just a self entitled ass (or any version of the sort… There has been a lot of speculation on DU about this. That's understandable, as this is a discussion board)

I'm not quite sure how to phrase this, but it appears as tho a lot of people are coming to a thesis based on his 'manifesto', and assuming that everything he wrote was absolute truth. This guy created a work of his own truths, as I see it.

I have not had a chance to read or even seen any comments from the many people he grew up with, or his family. Why are we taking his manifesto as truth? How do we know that anything he wrote was true at this point?

I assume it's easy to believe that the result of that very disturbed writing is proof. (and I am actually reading it, it looks like he was making excuses for what he did, blame blame blame)

Has anyone of the many MANY people mention in that writing had a chance to comment on what happened? The guy killed people. HE killed a lot of people, why should we take his words as truth?

He was a selfish murderous POS, I base this on his actions. I am not willing to get into his motives based on his words and his words only. I would very much like to see what so many of the people who interacted with him have to say. He named a lot of people; people who might be able to verify or discredit anything he wrote or recorded.


He killed innocents, I am not sure that I willing to give his words or manifesto credence.

[bettyellen]

1. I think his anger and hatred of his peers, especially women is self evident. The why and how is not.

[FSogol]

2. What they are saying is: "He was _____*______."

* = insert a group you hate/dislike. Bonus points if it is a group that you argue about constantly/frequently on DU.

DU?

[sufrommich]

3. The guy was both sexist and racist. That's pretty

hard to deny.

[FSogol]

6. The guy's thought processes were clearly diseased. There is no lesson to be learned

other than we need to keep guns out of the hands of individuals like that and try to get them some help before things like this happen.

[sufrommich]

8. The same could be said when angry deranged people kill

abortion doctors or shoot up liberal churches,both have happened and in both cases the shooters were crazy and latched on to a crazy cause. The fact that they were crazy shouldn't be ignored,but neither should the virulent,hate filled cause that they were attracted to.

[FSogol]

9. Good point, but what is gained from using the tragedy to score points against groups that

posters argue with on DU? Murderers can always come up with justification for their actions.

[sufrommich]

11. I didn't see the scoring points OPs,unless you're

talking about posts linking him to MRA groups and there is evidence linking him to such groups.

[Mojorabbit]

16. Sums it up perfectly. nt

[Eleanors38]

32. Yep. 'Bout sums it up. Deduct points if you don't toe somebody's line.

[Warren Stupidity]

4. He expressed "mens rights" ideas and sympathies, he did not state he was gay.

So I find the theories that he was gay more or less homophobic bullshit, while the theory that he was a misogynist men's rights activist more or less self evident.

[Raine1967]

10. To certain extent I agree.

I am going to say the very nicest way, NOT A FAN of MRA -- I think he may have found a comfortable place there in those forums with his mindset. Ugly mindsets can strange things.

No one is talking about his apparently increased sense of self imposed isolation and his obsession with gaming.

I just find it all very strange that so many people are making conclusions without the evidence beyond what he left. Videos and a manifesto. He killed people. HE had a midst that believed killing people was somehow justified. Along that line of though, why would I believe anything he said was completely truthful?

People knew him. His family knew him. This entire tragedy seems to be a lot different than what happened -- as an example not a comparison -- in Newtown.

[gollygee]

33. Why would you think what he wrote that he thought wasn't what he thought?

You think he wrote a, what, 140-page manifesto to throw people off the trail of what he was really thinking? I don't really get what you're saying.

[theHandpuppet]

26. Well said.

That pretty well sums it up.

[HipChick]

5. Even if he had gotta laid...

It still sounds like he would have ended up murdering people he had relationships with....he tore apart his room, and cried his eyes out, because he bought a Powerball ticket, and it was not the winning one? yeah...entitlement at it's best..

[gollygee]

34. He does sound like the kind of guy

who would be controlling and violent in a relationship. But that is often an expression of misogyny as well.

[Warpy]

7. He left cyber footprints in a lot of MRA/PUA groups

He was most likely twisted up with rage and hate before he found those groups. They probably acted as a safety fuse for a while but they also legitimized his rage and hatred.

One excuse would have been good as any other for someone like this. He could have converted to a rabid antiabortion group or to radical, fundy Islam. All would have served him as well as those MRA/PUA groups did.

It should be pointed out is that most of his victims were men. That suggests his rage was only directed at women verbally. Otherwise, it was just a random and lethal expression of rage against the whole world.

it's almost too bad he was shot dead. He would have provided a lot of information to FBI psychiatrists about these juvenile bundles of rabid rage.

[Raine1967]

14. I can understand what you are saying.

I said in another threat that I wish he lived long enough to correct his destructive thought process what ever that may have been.

it would have saved hundreds of people a lot of pain.

[boston bean]

15. Many MRA's believe that men are part of their problem.

His words in that context were MRA as well.

[gollygee]

35. MRAs hate women and also hate the men women choose to be with

because they think women should be choosing them instead. Or that they shouldn't have a choice.

This is still misogyny.

[boston bean]

12. Well, he wrote and believed a lot of things MRA's say, and he has been on those sites.

So I think it's perfectly fine to discuss that angle.

[Union Scribe]

13. Mass shooters are canvases

onto which posters project their pet theories of evil regardless of what role they may or may not have played. Anti-depressants, MRA, mental illness, NRA, etc. etc. People do the same with Hitler. And it isn't out of any interest in the truth, or even in avoiding future murders. It's just about confirming to themselves that they're right about those awful (fill in the blank).

[KT2000]

17. it was a senseless and frightening

act that may leave us all unsettled until we can explain it, at least to ourselves. If we can identify a problem, that means we can fix it - then we can proceed without living in fear.
It is a way of maintaining our own mental health.

[Jamaal510]

18. The speculations

about him being homosexual are just ridiculous. He clearly wasn't gay. He was just sexually frustrated, just like many other (socially inept) young guys. He was probably angry that none of the girls who he tried to get at wanted anything to do with him, and decided to go nuts.

[Raine1967]

20. As a teen, in reading his writing

he never wrote that he tried to approach a girl. He never approached a person to ask them out or to try to create a relationship with a female.

I have posted in a few threads about this, and I am angry that he killed innocent people. I am not sure it is my place to put blame on anything quite yet. Looking for responsibility is fair, I think, but blame, I don't know. This all strikes very close to home, in a personal manner.

[PeaceNikki]

21. This is exactly what struck me as well. In all of those pages, he never gave a SINGLE example of

actually being rejected. It seems he never tried. And hated them because he just knew they would. It's so weird.

[Raine1967]

22. To be honest, as much as I have read, he was never rejected by another person.

he was the one rejecting based in his own words. I still would very much like to hear from the people he spoke of. I am sitting here wondering about his personal narrative.

The entire thing is very weird.

[NobodyHere]

25. Just because he didn't write doesn't mean it didn't happen

Maybe he tried and was rejected. Maybe he didn't. I dunno.

It does seem clear though that he was very depressed had trouble dealing with automatic negative thoughts.

[PeaceNikki]

27. Did you read his manifesto? I did. If he tried and had been rejected,

I believe we would have very detailed accounts of that happening.

[Tom Ripley]

19. "This guy created a work of his own truths, as I see it." +1000

[Gravitycollapse]

23. "He was a selfish murderous POS, I base this on his actions." - That is circular reasoning

"2+2=4 because 2+2=4." That is a non-answer. To explain you must give a proof of the logical chain.

Why is he a selfish murderous POS? His actions don't explain his intentions. You're doing exactly what everyone is doing; speculating.

[Raine1967]

24. No, I am not.

Why would you quote "2+2=4 because 2+2=4." as a response to my OP? I never said such a thing.

I am actually not speculating at all in this OP. I was asking about something that I was curious about.

now if you think I have circular reasoning, fine, but I was trying to be objective.


ETA: I find it interesting that you are the very first person to come into this thread and make it something that should be defended.

you dropped a turd with no efficacy to back it up. I am not looking for discourse. Until now, no one else in this thread did either.


ETA2: His actions, whatever his intentions, killed people. Go back and read my OP. I questioned his honesty, I questioned whether we should judge him soley on those words without hearing what his friends, family and acquaintances -- in a real and physical form -- had to say about him and their relationships with him.

You are looking for a contentious debate when there is no need to have one.

good evening.

[Gravitycollapse]

28. Of course, you're speculating. Not speculating would mean not saying anything at all.

Are you here right now claiming he was a murderous piece of shit? Yes, you are.

[Raine1967]

30. I'm not.

and to be honest, It appears that the posts you are responding to are trying to deflect from what I was saying.


It's not about me. Please take those fingers you are pointing some place else. My OP came from an honest place. what you are doing is just plain out and out shitty.

You're not in this thread to discuss an issue that I tried to present, you are here to discuss me. If I am wrong, try reframing your disagreement without using me as a part of your point. Try not making it personally about me.

Oh, once again, read my OP. I'd like to discuss that.

[Gravitycollapse]

31. Are you really not that self-aware? Your OP is one gigantic self-contradiction.

You write about not wanting to jump to conclusions based on his words. Then you jump to conclusions based on his actions.

This is only a comment on you personally because you are the one who personally made the OP. You call out a bunch of people and then do exactly what you called them out for doing.

[uppityperson]

29. I do not take anything he wrote as "truth" to the rest of the world but as rantings of a delusional

mind. His reality and the rest of the universe's reality were not the same.

[Starry Messenger]

36. If he'd written about how much he hated abortions

and then headed to a clinic to kill a bunch of people at a Planned Parenthood, wouldn't that lead one to draw some conclusions?