One more time- again. The mentally ill are far more often VICTIMS

[cali]

of violence than perpetrators of it.

Furthermore when we are talking about the dangerously mentally ill, we're talking about a very tiny subset of a subset
-the SPMI population. Severely (or seriously, depending who you're talking to in the field) and Persistently Mentally Ill).

Add to that that accurately predicting behavior is both near impossible and dangerous, the calls to "do something" about the mentally ill are, just stupid. Sorry, but they are. Stupid. And ignorant.

I've worked with mentally ill criminals, people in prisons and who were committed to the state hospital by the courts as incompetent. At Waterbury, I don't think I ever ran into someone who was committed and had a diagnosis as a psychopath/sociopath. In the prison system I did.

But again, most people with a diagnosis of mental illness are no more prone to violence then those without such a diagnosis.

Lay the hell off this persecuted population.

[phil89]

1. 100% true and empirically supported.

People with severe mental illness are far more likely to be victims. Tv/movie educated people don't seem to understand this.

[cali]

2. Lots of intelligent DUers don't seem to understand this either. n/t

[Roy Rolling]

35. Terminology

A big part of the problem is the naming of brain diseases. "Mental illness" conjures up the notion that willpower will change the symptoms. "Brain disease and behavioral disorders" more accurately defines the medical disease and should be adopted by medical professionals.

There is no"mental" organ or mechanism in human physiology, it's time the medical profession come out of the dark ages on this.

So, the first step is to call these diseases "brain disease" just like other afflictions of the brain.

[Avalux]

3. I agree with you completely. Great post. n/t

[cali]

4. thanks for the support.

[Squinch]

5. Won't it be nice when that fact is obvious to all around here? Think it'll ever happen?

[cali]

6. No. and we'll just have to keep reminding people.

[Neoma]

11. I try on my end.

But more people are misinformed than informed on this topic.

[Louisiana1976]

7. Excellent post. K&R

[woo me with science]

8. Excellent, much-needed post.

Thank you. K&R

[uppityperson]

9. my 1st reaction used to be we needed more affordable, accessible, non-stigmatic mental health servic

services. After reading several posts like this, I still hold that opinion but also agree strongly that the mentally ill are more often victims and focusing on them after a mentally ill person runs amok is wrong.

We need more mental health services that can actually be used and are non-stigmatic. That is a fact.

BUT.

To look at people who have mental health issues after someone does something like this and imply they are the problem is dead wrong.

I do not know if having better access would in any way stop any of these tragedies from happening, but it would help a lot of people be healthier, happier.

I hope this comes across as I mean it to, if not please let me know and I'll try to figure out how to better express what I am trying to say.

K&R also.

[Warren Stupidity]

23. This person had access to all the services there are.

Obviously better access to mental health services was not the issue in this event, nor is it a solution to our disgusting problem with mass shootings. Everyone should of course have access to all the health care services they need of any sort, but that is not why we keep having mass shootings.

[uppityperson]

28. I agree, 2 different things and why focusing on mental illness in relation to an event like this

does not much to help anything.

[Neoma]

10. K&R

[steve2470]

12. 100% agree

Right now my understanding of the system is, only people who have been involuntarily committed are barred from buying weapons. I don't know if that's nationwide.

You obviously can't force everyone to undergo a psychiatric exam to buy a weapon, that's a non-starter. Requiring psychiatrists to submit reports to the authorities also has its problems, namely 1) psychiatrists are wrong sometimes and 2) such a requirement will deter people from seeking mental health care/exams.

[Neoma]

13. Well, after the last time I went to the hospital.

I got barred from owning a gun for five years. voluntarily I might add.

[steve2470]

14. were you able to appeal that ?

I'm guessing if so, it would have been a big hassle and quite expensive. I think the involuntary commitment thing is gross overkill. There's a huge difference between someone who is suicidal and/or psychotic, and someone wishing to commit homicide. The homicidally-inclined, in my experience, were a very very small percentage.

[Neoma]

17. I was never involuntarily committed.

I don't particularly want a gun, though I love skeet shooting, but I haven't done that since I was a kid. If I was to have a weapon, it'd be a bow and arrow anyways. Because again, love target practice. But since I have videogames, why would I need it?

Let heads explode over that one. I'm dead serious.

[steve2470]

19. oh ok I misunderstood

Videogames are great. Too bad I've lost the inspiration for WoW

[Neoma]

24. Never played WOW.

Right now my favorite game is Oddworld where you're a weapon less alien trying to rescue all the other aliens like you so they won't turn into a food source for meat. It's a really old Playstation game that's available in the PS3 store. Kids (like I was) used to play this game to death. Figuratively speaking of course.

[1000words]

15. It's DU: There are points to be won, for varying crusades.

[YoungDemCA]

16. It's a red herring to distract from the real causes of this tragedy

Namely, a deeply alarming sense of sexual entitlement + a persecution complex that was fueled by MRA talking points, combined with access to firearms.

[mopinko]

39. ^^^ this^^

[DeadLetterOffice]

18. THANK YOU.

It's very hard for a lot of people to imagine, but being murderous does not mean you're mentally ill. I think that's what trips a lot of well-meaning people up, this assumption that you have to be 'crazy' to kill people.

[Warren Stupidity]

20. +1. The scapegoat distraction from the OBVIOUS PROBLEM.

[H2O Man]

21. Thank you.

Recommended.

[LeftishBrit]

22. k&r

[loyalsister]

25. Truth

I think a lot of the problem is circularly manifest in our language and entertainment. Things that lie beyond our comprehension are so frequently labeled as "crazy," "insane," or some other language also used to describe people who have mental illnesses. I have most recently begun to hear "bipolar" used as an insult. Psychopathology and sociopathic criminals are so frequently portrayed in crime dramas that people think they are actually common conditions and use the terms outside of the clinical context. Not to mention the frequency that he criminals are claimed to have ordinary mental illnesses.

Rage and irrational behavior are not mental illnesses and they are common enough that most have experienced and participated in various contexts and degrees. These criminals are us. It's terrifying for sure, but anyone who has yelled at another driver and flipped them the bird has expressed anger with an irrational response. Yet it is approved of because it is common and doesn't actually hurt anyone. Some take it a step further and rear end a driver who makes them angry. Others, don't approve, but they do understand.

Killing a cheating spouse, expressing rage in extreme ways toward someone who perpetrated a severe slight are actions that ordinary people empathize or even approve of. What would be the response to someone who shot some wall streeters who they think should have been jailed?

These criminals are us with tools, skills, and inclinations to take their rage and maladaptive responses to greater extremes than most of us would.

Skills and inclinations have no systemic solutions. The availability of tools that inflict the greatest damage in a way that is distant enough to reduce the crisis of conscience do.

[VanillaRhapsody]

26. but if the psychotic refuse medication as in this case? What do we do?

[uppityperson]

29. What do we do when those in need refuse the help? That is a problem for which

most just end up being unhappy and harming themselves, and a few end up harming others.

Have you thoughts on what to do?

[VanillaRhapsody]

30. I think if they are deemed psychotic and refuse medication.....then I think they should be

locked up. As they cannot make rational decisions for themselves. They are unable to "consent" to any sort of transaction in the legal sense to me....

[H2O Man]

34. There has been no

evidence that suggests medication would be successful in treating the killer. If, for example, he was diagnosed as a sociopath, there isn't a medication to "treat" those symptoms.

The topic of non-compliance is, of course, a valid and important one -- even if it isn't at issue in this case. Mentally ill people often do have issues with taking medications prescribed to them, especially early on in treatment. This is not that different from medications such as antibiotics; when a person feels good/better, they may either forget or chose not to take medication.

There is, of course, a co-morbidity with mental illness and substance abuse in populations under 65 today. There are a number of reasons for this, of course. But certain diseases have high rates of relapse, and these two often go hand-in-hand.

It's not a crime to be mentally ill. Hence, the options that family and friends have are limited. But, at that same time, the support from family and friends can be a huge positive factor -- in dealing with the illness, and in coming to accept the benefits of medication.

[cali]

43. I doubt very much that he was pychotic at all. His memoir reflects no obvious psychosis

sociopaths and psychopaths are not mentally ill in the sense that one can medicate the problems away.

Forced medication has, in the past, led to terrible, terrible things for too many people. It should be very hard to force medicate someone.

[NealK]

51. +1 n/t

[Jamastiene]

27. Thank you!

I'm glad to hear more people speaking up about this. The stigma is overwhelming enough already, but made much worse when people lump people with mental illness in with violent mass shooters and other extremely violent people. My condition makes it so I have a harder time than most witnessing violence or hearing about it, but to be lumped in with the person who perpetrated that violence just makes it all that much worse. I feel like I cannot come together with the majority of the community to try to cope because so many people blame "the mentally ill" when these things happen. Most of us who have some form of mental illness or another abhor violence and would not harm anyone.

[cali]

44. You are more than welcome.

[Bjorn Against]

31. As a person with a brother who has schizophrenia I thank you for this thread.

[Scuba]

32. K&R Thank you cali for this important reminder.

[Enthusiast]

33. Kicked and recommended a whole bunch!

[Rozlee]

36. It especially angers me how they're playing out the autism and Asperger's angle.

I have a grandchild with Asperger's and it galls me how it's being made such a side show in the cases of Adam Lanza and now Elliot Rodger. People with high-functioning autism are no more or less likely to go on a killing spree than anyone else in the general population.

[Jamastiene]

40. +1000000

[defacto7]

37. Thank you.

It needs repeating.

[dballance]

38. Thank You!

Thanks for making a statement that really needs to be made.

People get so caught up in anecdotal instances that are fired and flamed by the media they don't stop to think this is a case of an outlier. Not the case of a typical person.

[pipoman]

41. I agree for the most part. ..

But again, most people with a diagnosis of mental illness are no more prone to violence then those without such a diagnosis. 

This statement is true. It is also true that people with a diagnosis of mental illness are somewhat more prone than the general public to commit crimes and suicide. Access to mental health and addiction services was reduced by Ronnie Raygun.

I believe it is time to do something about mental health patients. It is time to find a way to fund mental health and addiction services for anyone who needs them regardless their ability to pay...maybe like ending the funding for the war on most drugs, and maybe even some tax revenue from some of the statistically more benign recreational products. Further, a mechanism for people to voluntarily put themselves on the nics prohibited buyers list and a simplified way to remove the prohibition at a later time for voluntary signers. There are many things possible to do something about the mentally ill that is/would be helpful..not bad for the mentally ill community.

I have an aunt who is debilitated by bipolar disorder among other things. She was on a waiting list for two years to get into independent living housing for the mentally ill. It is great. It is too bad she had to wait so long. She would never gotten in if she was unable to self pay.

[cali]

45. there is much debate about that, so no it's not true. It's not established as fact

and the studies that have been done that indicate such, indicate a very slight difference in populations.

[me b zola]

42. K&R

[treestar]

46. ...

http://depts.washington.edu/mhreport/facts_violence.php

It's a comfort to people more than anything else. I guess they don't want to believe people can be violent and not mentally ill, that is, perfectly aware of what they are doing and knowing it is wrong.

[Initech]

47. And once again it all gets traced back to Reagan.

Who cut funding to mental health facilities? Reagan.

Who closed most of our country's mental health hospitals? Reagan.

Worst president ever!!!

[cali]

48. psychopaths/sociopaths are notoriously hard to treat

and the indicators are that Elliot Rodger was one.

[Initech]

49. My point isn't who's harder to treat.

My point is that had we not elected a president with such disdain for the mentally ill that he cut funding for mental health facilities and hospitals that we could have had better treatments now than we had 30 years ago.

[kcr]

50. Rec

Especially for this: "Add to that that accurately predicting behavior is both near impossible and dangerous, the calls to "do something" about the mentally ill are, just stupid. Sorry, but they are. Stupid. And ignorant."

[NealK]

52. K&R

Thank you.

[MarianJack]

53. Something DOES need to be done about the mentally ill,...

...like proper care, treatment and basic human RESPECT! You don't hold it against people when they have a physical illness, than why such a stigma on mental illness?

I'm sick and tired of the GD NRA trying to criminalize mental illness every time a gun but goes on a rampage!

PEACE!

[Neoma]

56. Hear, hear!

[Not a Fan]

54. this thread

Thank you for this.

[Chakab]

55. Indeed. It should also be noted that most "nice guys" can't get dates are not potentional

mass murderers or women abusers. They generally just suffer in silence and watch a lot of porn.