Elliot Rodger's California shooting spree: further proof that misogyny kills

[XemaSab]

(long snip)

If we need to talk about this tragic shooting in terms of illness, though, let's start with talking about our cultural sickness – a sickness that refuses to see misogyny as anything other than inevitable.

It was reported on Saturday that Rodger's family had contacted the police about his violent and strange videos "weeks" before the shooting. The family attorney said that police interviewed Rodger and thought he was a "perfectly polite, kind and wonderful human".

I have to wonder how much police dismissed Rodger's video rants because of the expectation that violent misogyny in young men is normal and expected. "Dismissing violent misogynists as 'crazy' is a neat way of saying that violent misogyny is an individual problem, not a cultural one," feminist blogger Melissa McEwan tweeted.

The truth is that there is no such thing as a lone misogynist – they are created by our culture, and by communities that tells them that their hatred is both commonplace and justified.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/may/24/elliot-rodgers-california-shooting-mental-health-misogyny

[gollygee]

1. This should be a fun thread.

But i'll give it a K&R.

[Gman]

2. Mysogeny has nothing to do with it

That's just as wrong as the Fox News "expert" who argued he was gay and he felt women stole men from him.

[gollygee]

3. Did you hear his misogynist rants?

How can you say misogyny had nothing to do with it after hearing him say he wanted to kill women because women don't want to have sex with him.

[Gman]

12. Would you have preferred a rant about Satan?

Why do you even take the rantings of someone criminally insane seriously?

[gollygee]

13. ASD doesn't = "criminally insane"

Well the police officer who interviewed him obviously didn't take it seriously either.

[Gman]

14. Then I guess it was Satan that made him do it.

[gollygee]

20. Have you ever met anyone with an autism spectrum disorder?

They don't rant about Satan and things like that.

[Gman]

108. Yes, I had a student in my class

And I know other folks with affected children. I even know one adult. So I've seen how they can be in their own world with their own often unique perspectives that do not reflect reality.

When they reclassified and redefined autism to include the related disorders they drew a lot of criticism. But it was a wise choice because the various related disorders often defy specific definition. "They really don't know" can often be heard from the parents.

[Gravitycollapse]

17. Why wouldn't you take them seriously? Taking them seriously doesn't mean they're true...

In part or totality. It means you understand there is something important to be gained from reading and listening to them.

[nomorenomore08]

52. +1

[PeaceNikki]

4. really??

[Gman]

9. Yes really. Ever heard of Autism Spectrum Disorder?

It has nothing to do with mysogeny. It's a mental illness. Would you have preferred a rant about Satan? Would it then be a legitimate illness?

[Shivering Jemmy]

16. I am not mentally ill

I am on the autism spectrum. I am perfectly fine the way I am.

It's you norms that have the problem.

[11 Bravo]

33. Help me out here. Is "norms" the new DU slur du jour?

Fuck, I guess I'm a "norm", but I've never felt bad about it.

[1000words]

42. "Norms?"

Does that make you an "abnorm?"

[Shivering Jemmy]

47. It makes me more than two standard deviations

From the mean of the distribution.
It does not make me ill.

[Gravitycollapse]

18. Misogyny gave him an enemy. It didn't make him mentally disturbed.

His disturbance latched onto the ideology of misogyny. It provided a scapegoat.

[theHandpuppet]

39. Yep -- misogyny offered him validation

And like like gasoline tossed onto a smoldering fire, the result was an inferno.

[Spider Jerusalem]

19. Autism is not a mental illness.

It is a neurodevelopmental disorder. ASD doesn't make you delusional or psychotic.

http://www.autism.org.uk/About-autism/Autism-and-Asperger-syndrome-an-introduction/What-is-Asperger-syndrome.aspx

[Gravitycollapse]

28. You don't have to be delusional or psychotic to have a mental illness, FYI.

Autism is a neurological disorder which can manifest itself in mental health issues.

[Spider Jerusalem]

30. There may be comorbid mental health issues.

But autistic spectrum disorders themselves are not "mental illness". It is not helpful for ignorant people to claim they are.

[Gravitycollapse]

31. That depends on how you choose to use the term "comorbid."

Are you saying two conditions exist along side each other independently? Or the existence of one is the consequence of the other?

[Spider Jerusalem]

35. Existing independently.

The only consequential mental health issues from autistic disorders I'm aware of are major depression and dysthymia.

[Gravitycollapse]

38. So you admit that autism can cause mental health issues. That is what I'm saying as well.

All sorts of health issues can lead to mental health problems without themselves being related to mental health.

Whether or not autism can cause something like a narcissistic personality disorder, I frankly don't know. I'm not a psychologist. I just stayed at a Holiday Inn.

[Spider Jerusalem]

41. I'm autistic. I probably have somewhat more insight into this than you do.

I would find it doubtful that ASD could "cause" something like a narcissistic personality disorder. There seems to've been more going on there than merely ASD. (Especially if what I saw about a psychiatrist wanting to prescribe risperidone is true; risperidone is an antipsychotic.)

[Gravitycollapse]

43. I concede to your understanding of ASD. But I know a bit about risperidone...

It is an atypical antipsychotic which can be used to treat myriad of mental health issues beyond psychotic disorders. It would be impossible to pin the reason for that prescription down to one medical diagnoses without seeing the specific medical history.

[muriel_volestrangler]

133. I don't think this is about 'ignorance', but the definitions that various professionals use

eg

There are many different mental illnesses, including depression, schizophrenia, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD), autism, and obsessive-compulsive disorder.

http://science.education.nih.gov/supplements/nih5/mental/guide/info-mental-a.htm

Do you consider there is a fundamental difference between a 'disorder' and an 'illness'? I think many people don't.

[Spider Jerusalem]

134. Yes, there's a fundamental difference.

A neurodevelopmental disorder (like autistic spectrum disorder) is not curable and not treatable with medication, and generally manifests in early childhood. A mental illness (like depression, bipolar disorder, or schizophrenia) very rarely and indeed almost never manifests in childhood (adolescence is more common for onset of such things), and mental illnesses are treatable with medication. See for instance the Civil Service guidelines, here: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:vpHJEvKyYc4J:www.civilservice.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/differences_disability_illness_tcm6-2251.rtf+&cd=7&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk

See also this: http://www.autism.org.uk/~/media/NAS/Documents/News-and-events/NAS-conferences/Challenging-Behaviour-London-2011/Crocombe-Autism-and-mental-health-the-challenge-of-complex-diagnosis.ashx (NB the first bit, "the nature of ASD&quot .

[muriel_volestrangler]

135. But, as we see, the NIH does define developmental disorders as illnesses

The definitions are not universally agreed by the professionals.

[Spider Jerusalem]

136. They are, actually. Or at least by a majority of professionals.

Whether NIH defines it as a mental illness or not is irrelevant; they do so because of a US law (Public Law 102-321) which defines "mental illness" as including developmental disorders. This is a legal definition, and not a medical one:

The National Institute of Mental Health (NIMH) has made a substantial commitment to research designed to discover autism’s causes and improve diagnosis and treatment. Not only has NIMH become the lead institute for autism research at NIH, we have become the largest single source of funding for autism research in the country.

Why has NIMH taken on this leading role in autism research? While included in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders*, autism is usually considered a developmental disorder rather than a mental illness. Why would NIMH commit essential resources to a non-mental illness? (goes on to mention other neurodevelopmental conditions)

http://www.nimh.nih.gov/about/director/2009/autism-progress.shtml

And the broad consensus of expert opinion is that ASD != "mental illness"; see for instance the NHS: https://www.google.co.uk/#q=autism+%22not+a+mental+illness%22+site:nhs.uk

See also results limited to US universities (the .edu domain): https://www.google.co.uk/#q=autism+%22not+a+mental+illness%22+site:.edu

[Nevernose]

111. FTR, the killer was neither delusional nor psychotic

Although, like you, I imagine being autistic had little or nothing to do with his rampage.

[Spider Jerusalem]

113. That doesn't seem to be what this says:

“Elliot has always been troubled and couldn’t express himself,” the source tells us.

“His parents did everything they could to help him. It seemed that Elliot suffered from extreme paranoia and heard voices, but it was impossible to properly diagnose because he just wouldn’t talk. Having been prescribed psychiatric medication, Elliot refused to take it.


http://radaronline.com/exclusives/2014/05/ucsb-mass-shooter-refused-psychiatric-medicines-parents-in-hiding/

Extreme paranoia and hearing voices? That sounds like schizophrenia. Which is a psychotic disorder that causes delusions.

Also, "like you"? What "rampage"? Somehow pointing out that people are wrong = "rampage", now?

[Nevernose]

117. The shooting rampage?

Like you, I think autism had very little to do with the shooting rampage?

Thanks for pointing out the part about him hearing voices; in the mass of information, I must have missed it. There are a lot of things that could cause one to hear voices, but we'll probably never know.

[Spider Jerusalem]

118. He was also prescribed risperidone (an antipsychotic) which he refused to take, apparently.

And schizophrenia seems like a good guess; hearing voices + extreme paranoia, but then, I'm not Bill Frist and don't have magical diagnosis-at-a-distance powers. (This is something that a forensic examination of his brain might show one way or another, but that probably won't happen, either.)

[mopinko]

123. actually

i was under the impression that brain samples were part of a normal coroners exam, and that researchers do have access to them.
i know of at least one book based on this.

[LeftyMom]

27. MRA and PUA communities fed his misogyny.

It's possible that his ASD contributed to the situation in that it made him socially awkward and his need for rules and order to understand relationships led him to Pick Up Artists.

But his diagnosis doesn't change the fact that MRA beliefs are associated with violence against women, and this is only the latest example.

[bravenak]

36. It is not a mental illness.

He hated women and blamed them for everything.
My daughter has autism and does not go take to giving long winded diatribes about how mich she hates women. You are being disrespectful, and do not seem to know anything about autism.

[Gman]

114. It's a disorder not an illness.

And I'm sure your daughter, depending greatly on the degree of her disorder, can seemingly become very focused on something. The student I had could go on and on about a rock. He focused on the rejection from women.

[bravenak]

120. She is still saying sorry about breaking her kindle last year.

I bought her a new one but she can't stop focusing on that one.

[Squinch]

37. ASD did not make him do this. I hope you will educate yourself about ASD because what you are

saying is ridiculous.

[Gman]

110. Schizophrenics are usually nonviolent too

Then one shoots a congressman in AZ The issue is the distorted perceptions because of the disorder

[Squinch]

122. That statement doesn't make any sense. You need to educate yourself about ASD before you

make statements about it.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

44. His AS disorder was cause of his lack of dating success & that turned into misogyny.

His Autism Spectrum disorder was cause of his lack of success with women because it made him less empathetic (probably unempathetic) and less able to read others' emotions. It was also the vehicle that carried his rationalizations of his misogyny to extremes.

He was mentally ill (it is now clear, though ASD does not equal mental illness) and it took the form of misogyny. Learn how to spell it, please.

[Gman]

106. You make my point well

My spelling not withstanding.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

112. Wrong. Autism Spectrum Disorder is not a mental illness.

ASD is not a mental illness, just like being born without a forearm or having an extra finger is not an illness.

[Gman]

115. I agree with you and I'm wrong? LOL!

I had a student with Asperger's who had zero social skills and could go on at length about a rock he found. No, it is not an illness and he did well in class. He could really go off on tangents during discussions and (8th grader) would bring toy super heroes to class. I let him keep them and even play with it by himself during class. He was paying attention to class, and the toy helped him. The nature of the different disorders causes sometimes different and sometimes distorted perceptions. That's what happened with this shooter. And as you say it manifested with misogyny and what was essentially lashing out which my student would sometimes do.

BTW, an illness has progressive symptoms. A disorder does not.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

116. You wrote "Ever heard of Autism Spectrum Disorder? ... It's a mental illness." Wrong.

You wrote

Ever heard of Autism Spectrum Disorder?
It has nothing to do with mysogeny. It's a mental illness.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4999190

You've been called on that statement up and down the thread but I've not seen you retract it. Perhaps I missed your retraction.

Autism Spectrum Disorder is not an illness.

[nomorenomore08]

55. Obviously the guy had severe psychological problems (and I don't mean autism).

But the scary thing is that his ranting isn't all that far off from stuff I've seen posted online by MRA's, Red Pill-ers, etc. There's a discussion site called Return of Kings which literally advocates the breakdown of modern society for the purpose of re-enslaving women.

[Gman]

105. Another whatever

[nomorenomore08]

131. I wouldn't be so dismissive of this stuff myself. A small number of crazies can do a lot of damage.

[Chemisse]

60. Autism spectrum is not a mental illness.

This kind of thinking has nothing to do with the Aspergers.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

70. oh bite me and quit derailing the most compelling fact here- -

Regardless of his particular disorders, the guy's rant is just a paraphrasing of every woman-hating screed that's spanned the centuries.

Why, could it be that the culture you're raised in molds your beliefs? Gasp!

[Squinch]

99. .

[Gman]

104. Whatever

[BlancheSplanchnik]

107. flying pigs

drop poop.

[Gman]

109. ibid

[seabeyond]

78. wow. my son did not know he was mentally ill. he figured he simply had a challenge in

some areas.

[Gman]

103. That's called a false equivalent.

[seabeyond]

121. ??? use said austism was a mental illness. i said son and i never saw him as

having a mental illness.

some challenges with his differences.

false equivalent. makes no sense

[treestar]

25. He would have been much happier in the medieval era

Medieval Europe.

[AngryAmish]

48. Does anyone else see this post as really tiny?

No way I can read it.

[PeaceNikki]

51. here's an expanded c&p

The ultimate evil behind sexuality is the human female. They are the main instigators of sex. They control which men get it and which men don’t. Women are flawed creatures, and my mistreatment at their hands has made me realize this sad truth. There is something very twisted and wrong with the way their brains are wired. They think like beasts, and in truth, they are beasts. Women are incapable of having morals or thinking rationally. They are completely controlled by their depraved emotions and vile sexual impulses. Because of this, the men who do get to experience the pleasures of sex and the privilege of breeding are the men who women are sexually attracted to… the stupid, degenerate, obnoxious men. I have observed this all my life. The most beautiful of women choose to mate with the most brutal of men, instead of magnificent gentlemen like myself.

Women should not have the right to choose who to mate and breed with. That decision should be made for them by rational men of intelligence. If women continue to have rights, they will only hinder the advancement of the human race by breeding with degenerate men and creating stupid, degenerate offspring. This will cause humanity to become even more depraved with each generation. Women have more power in human society than they deserve, all because of sex. There is no creature more evil and depraved than the human female.

Women are like a plague. They don’t deserve to have any rights. Their wickedness must be contained in order prevent future generations from falling to degeneracy. Women are vicious, evil, barbaric animals, and they need to be treated as such.
...
The first strike against women will be to quarantine all of them in concentration camps. At these camps, the vast majority of the female population will be deliberately starved to death. That would be an efficient and fitting way to kill them all off. I would take great pleasure and satisfaction in condemning every single woman on earth to starve to death. I would have an enormous tower built just for myself, where I can oversee the entire concentration camp and gleefully watch them all die. If I can’t have them, no one will, I’d imagine thinking to myself as I oversee this. Women represent everything that is unfair with this world, and in order to make the world a fair place, they must all be eradicated.

A few women would be spared, however, for the sake of reproduction. These women would be kept and bred in secret labs. There, they will be artificially inseminated with sperm samples in order to produce offspring. Their depraved nature will slowly be bred out of them in time.
Future generations of men would be oblivious to these remaining women’s existence, and that is for the best. If a man grows up without knowing of the existence of women, there will be no desire for sex. Sexuality will completely cease to exist. Love will cease to exist. There will no longer be any imprint of such concepts in the human psyche. It is the only way to purify the world.

[AngryAmish]

98. yikes

yikes...golly....that is a level of crazy I did not expect before my tea.

[Gravitycollapse]

10. Misogyny didn't force this guy kill a bunch of people. But it certainly aided the process.

It helped give him a collective enemy.

[nomorenomore08]

56. Precisely. It provided a focus for his delusions, in an ultimately tragic manner. n/t

[Chemisse]

61. This is just what the guy focused on.

It could just have easily been Jews or Americans or jocks. It could be anything - and has, in other mass murders.

[Gravitycollapse]

63. Well, except, not really. The two issues are interrelated. He didn't just pick woman-hating.

It was imbibed by a deeply misogynist society.

[Chemisse]

65. Oh please . . .

You are twisting this to fit your own agenda.

Consider this. In another post on this thread, catchnrelease wrote,

"I also read a good part of that autobio, until I couldn't take it anymore. He didn't just hate women, he hated everyone that didn't look up to him. I was thinking about it last night--I've never seen so much hate come out of one person! He hated the girls that weren't attracted to him, he hated the kids that could skateboard better than he could, he hated the younger kid that was better at martial arts than he was, he even said he wanted to destroy his friends that got together to play video games and didn't invite him to be there in person to play. He said he would go online and try to obliterate their characters."

So was he aided by a nationwide anti-skateboard sentiment? Was he being fed hate by people against video games?

He was a twisted individual who settled on an anti-woman vendetta, even while he shot, stabbed and ran over numerous men!

This whole thing has very little to do with misogyny.

[Gravitycollapse]

66. "This whole thing has very little to do with misogyny." - One of the dumbest claims so far on this.

He expressed a general disdain for anyone who did not fit the specific narrative of his splitting. But he also went on a diatribe calling women fundamentally manipulative, animalistic, stupid and evil. Something he did not express in such certain terms for any other group. He had classifications for good men and good skateboarders. He had no such classifications for the women of his narrative (excluding his mother which is probably some sort of oedipal issue).

He wasn't on websites trying to figure out how to trick skateboarders and jocks into fucking him. And the malevolence of women to which he believed sat diametrically opposed to his perception of personal innocence.

[XemaSab]

22. Hitler was a madman

And him killing 7 million Jews had nothing to do with a culture of anti-Semitism, so looking at the larger culture of anti-Semitism around him doesn't tell us anything.

This appears to be your logic.

[nomorenomore08]

57. +1

The Holocaust had its roots in centuries of European anti-Semitism. Likewise, the virulent misogyny of the MRA's, Red Pill-ers, MGTOW - whatever they call themselves - is based in very old, and very deeply ingrained, ideas.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

67. perfect analogy.

Thanks, I'm gonna remember that. Illustrates the dynamic perfectly.

It's not going to influence that poster's mindset, but.....we knew that, didn't we.

[1000words]

5. When that woman stabbed her three children to death, recently ...

We were lectured that she was a victim of mental illness and we should pity her.

[gollygee]

6. Had she been on online forums about how horrible kids were?

Had she posted YouTube videos about how much she hated kids and wanted to kill them? Had a police officer interviewed her after knowing about her kid-hating rants and decided she was fine and there was nothing to worry about?

He might have been mentally ill. We don't know. But we do know he hated women.

We don't even know if the woman was mentally ill, although postpartum depression with a 2-month-old and three kids so close in age is possible. But these two situations aren't really comparable as far as seeing how his issue - whether due to mental illness or not - was fed by misogyny and online groups that encourage it.

[1000words]

8. Not to my knowledge ...

There was numerous speculations that the husband pushed her to a psychotic breakdown, though.

Mystery solved.

[gollygee]

11. So you want to dismiss this conversation

because you didn't like how that conversation went?

If a woman kills her own children and people speculate that it might be mental illness or she might have been a victim of domestic violence, it's not OK to consider that a guy who has a bunch of online rants about how women had no right to turn him down and because women wouldn't have sex with him, he was going to kill them, might have been misogynist and that might have contributed to the killing?

[1000words]

24. Just a reminder where some are coming from, is all.

I believe Rodger's mental instability was going to "come out sideways" and find a victim sooner or later. His loneliness and sexual frustration led him to the obvious.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

69. sexual frustration.

And isn't it common for sexually frustrated hetero men to externalize their inner demons onto the object of their desire? Blaming. Enraged. And feeding their hatred within a community that specifically focuses the rage outward against women.

Same way fucked up people (whether or not they're diagnosed with anything ) join the teapukes or KKK, and all those communities who bond together through their hatred of a scapegoated group.

[1000words]

71. While you seem to have a firm grasp of the topic ...

I couldn't ever claim to understand another's sexual frustration, let alone apply a generalization of typical behavior.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

75. so? so effing what? it's his words and actions that matter here.

We don't need to understand his thoughts. We're not creating any new theories here, and we don't have to come up with a therapy program for him.

All we have to see are his words and actions and reason out how we, as intelligent, participating members of society, can respond, for the sake of the community.

[sunnystarr]

45. I don't think he hated women

I read his autobiography sketch ...

I think he hated himself. He saw himself as a failure. His sexual desires were just another weakness to him and women were the cause of it in his mind. He was totally immersed in himself and how he appeared to others. He desperately wanted others to see him as being worthy and equal to them. That equalizer to him meant a beautiful blonde hanging on his arm and seeing him as attractive and wanting him sexually. Being a virgin to him was a public exposure of him being a failure. He hated having to feel that he had to prove himself worthy to guys who fit into their male roles easily. So he hated them too. He couldn't handle the fact that not only wasn't he superior but that he was less than normal in a male world. So he created fantasies and imagined himself a god, wanting desperately to mold his own vision of a society where he would be in control and not a failure.

He was spoiled and wanted everything the easy way. He was unwilling to put work into anything because he wanted it all yesterday. He was a late bloomer who wasn't ready for adolescence and somehow remained frozen in that awkward, often painful, middle school age.

I don't believe he could get out of himself enough to hate or to love anyone but himself. It was always about him ... all the time.

If he had won the lottery/powerball as he so desperately wanted to win or if his mother actually did marry that multi-millionaire, I don't believe he would have carried out his deplorable rampage of killing. But he painted himself into a corner in his own mind and to him that was his only option.

[Gravitycollapse]

50. It appears that he suffered from splitting. He replaced the real image of himself and others...

With an unreal idealization. By splitting, he establishes himself and others as both starkly oppositional and incapable of complexity. It is a massive oversimplification of the identity of himself, who becomes pure, and others, who become the enemy and/or evil.

We all split psychologically. But, taken to its extreme, the defense mechanism can lead to dramatically warped perceptions of self and other.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

102. .

[catchnrelease]

53. I agree with you

I also read a good part of that autobio, until I couldn't take it anymore. He didn't just hate women, he hated everyone that didn't look up to him. I was thinking about it last night--I've never seen so much hate come out of one person! He hated the girls that weren't attracted to him, he hated the kids that could skateboard better than he could, he hated the younger kid that was better at martial arts than he was, he even said he wanted to destroy his friends that got together to play video games and didn't invite him to be there in person to play. He said he would go online and try to obliterate their characters.

I think his Aspergers made him awkward and he realized that, which made him feel like an outcast. He mentioned several times that kids would reach out to him at school, but even though they accepted him, it wasn't enough for him. As you said, I think he just hated himself most of all. When things got difficult for him in school or at a job, he would just give up and blame someone else. Once he fixated on girls/women that was his answer for everything. And then he found places that would feed his belief that women are bad. So sad for everyone in this story. But, wow, so much hate, that just blew my mind.

[Chemisse]

64. I agree.

[LeftyMom]

7. Did she have an extensive history of posting about how children belong in concentration camps

and she wanted to watch them starve? Was she posting to child hating web groups and following youtube channels about the evils of babies?

Dude was batshit, but he didn't invent his ideology out of whole cloth. Just as we talked about how her quiverfull beliefs and religious indoctrination were a factor in Andrea Yates' action as much as her postpartum psychosis, the nature of this guy's beliefs and the community in which he formed them are worthy of discussion.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

21. and there is The Difference. and Yes there needs to be some conversation about it all.

The contributing societal factors that help to form this young man's attitudes and mores ...

[Abq_Sarah]

15. His apparent hated of women

Was just one symptom of a much larger problem. He didn't just hate women, he hated anyone who didn't acknowledge his magnificence. People were nothing but sheep or insects to him.

[malaise]

23. I am no fan of police but the truth is that until police teams

include psychologists and psychiatrists when checking up on young men with problems, they will rarely spot psychopaths like Rodger. Add to that the class assumptions - he spoke well, was a gentleman, etc and they don't even know what it is they are trying to unearth.

[XemaSab]

26. I'm sure that 99% of the work of the IV police

is DUIs, drunk in public, loitering, vandalism, petty theft, and all the other stuff that goes on in a VERY small college town. Most welfare checks are on the order of "I haven't heard from Ashley in three days," and almost all violent crime is sexual assault and drunken brawls.

(This isn't data, this is just a guess based on familiarity with the area.)

I feel bad for the cops in this sitch.

[malaise]

29. That's my point

They are not thinking mass shooter

[PoliticAverse]

32. His rants indicated he hated all of humanity. That would qualify as misanthropy.

The first 3 people he killed were male.

Though his real problem may have been self-hatred.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

46. No, jealousy. The males were killed because they had more success w women.

His rants against males were because they had more success than he did.

Yes, he had self-hatred he hid from even himself.

[Jamastiene]

34. He seemed to have an unhealthy sense of entitlement,

like women should bow down to him or something. From what I saw in the video, he was the classic case of a misogynist who is clueless why women might not like him. Hint, hint: As much as he hated women, it's no wonder women weren't interested in him.

[hunter]

40. Tragedies like this have multiple causes.

But the misogyny, violence, and materialism of our culture were most certainly major contributing factors.

In another culture this kid might never have been fully functional, but maybe he wouldn't have exploded like this.

[nomorenomore08]

59. Seems like a perfect storm. As much as I really, really don't want to validate his "grievances" in

any way, it's impossible not to see him as a product - and a reflection - of a deeply fucked-up society.

[Whisp]

49. huge K & R

[Louisiana1976]

54. Excellent thread. K&R

[Exultant Democracy]

58. By that logic the Unibomber indicates that anti-capitalism kills?

[Gravitycollapse]

68. Of course, anti-capitalism and misogyny are totally dissimilar.

By your logic, no one could ever claim that racism kills. You haven't thought this through very well.

[Exultant Democracy]

80. Only if you don't understand how logic works champ.

Because the first two are the extreme acts of individuals that fall far outside of the normal spectrum while racism on the other hand has a long well documented bloody history in America that was the norm not an outlier.

If you want to talk about how misogyny kills you talk about the ER admittances each night in the US and the number of them that are caused by domestic abuse. It's a pretty simple argument to make the right way, so its pretty stupid to make it the wrong way.

The only thing these mass killers really have in common is mental instability and access to guns. For shame on the people that try to use these dead kids to prop up their own pet issues, it is disgusting.

[Gravitycollapse]

84. Misogyny is the norm, and not an outlier. Like I said, you haven't thought this through very well.

Which is evident in your argument. You're unable to understand the history of misogyny in America and the historical violence against women both in this country and internationally.

It's a vicious cycle. Ignorance breeds hatred and hatred breeds ignorance. Somewhere within that mystification exists your ideology. That's assuming you actually possess a coherent narrative of ignorance and aren't just pulling it all completely out of poorly illuminated regions of the body, one warm, steaming chunk at a time.

Misogyny and racism operate under the same psychosocial pretenses and both exist in spades throughout the world without needing a single ounce of validation on your part.

[Historic NY]

62. One has to wonder if he sought out a professional

sex worker whether this would have happened or not.

[shanti]

124. I thought about that too

I mean, if had money, and he did, buying sex so as not to be a virgin would be the best solution. But after reading his screed, it was apparent that he looked down on prostitutes, and was only interested in some sort of fantasy, perfect young blonde that HE couldn't have. That's my take anyway...

[Historic NY]

130. Myself also...unrealistic expectations on his part and not a means to cope.

[cherokeeprogressive]

72. Misogyny causes man to kill four males, two females...

Yeah, I'm having a hard time reconciling that.

If you want to argue he killed the four males because they HAD "success" with women, that was jealousy, not misogyny.

He was fucked up. Grew up fucked up. He had fucked up parents. He was 22 and if I read correctly was attending a Community College close to home, and driving a new BMW. When I was 22 I was working 12 hours a day seven days a week on the flight deck of an aircraft carrier and was married with a child on the way.

Fuck him.

He killed twice as many men as he did women, three of them up close and personal with a knife.

Misogyny? Please.

[XemaSab]

73. What, the idea that there are people out there who hate women is new to you?

On the day of retribution I am going to enter the hottest sorority house of UCSB… and I will slaughter every single spoiled, stuck-up, blonde slut I see inside there.

All those girls that I’ve desired so much, they would’ve all rejected me and looked down upon me as an inferior man if I ever made a sexual advance towards them while they throw themselves at these obnoxious brutes.

I will take great pleasure in slaughtering all of you.

You will finally see that I am in truth the superior one. The true alpha male. (laughs)

Yes, after I’ve annihilated every single girl in the sorority house, I’ll take to the streets of Isla Vista, and slay every single person I see there.

All those popular kids who live such lives of hedonistic pleasure while I’ve had to rot in loneliness for all these years, they’ve all looked down upon me every time I try to go out and join them. They’ve all treated me like a mouse.

Well now, I will be a God compared to you. You will all be animals. You are animals, and I will slaughter you like animals. I will be a God, exacting my retribution, on all those who deserve it.

And you do deserve it, just for the crime of living a better life than me.

All you popular kids. You’ve never accepted me, and now you’ll all pay for it.

And girls, all I’ve ever wanted was to love you, and to be loved by you. I’ve wanted a girlfriend, I’ve wanted sex, I’ve wanted love, affection, adoration, but you think I’m unworthy of it.

That’s a crime that can never be forgiven.

If I can’t have you, girls, I will destroy you. (laughs)

[cherokeeprogressive]

77. I wasn't aware I posted it was NEWS TO ME there are men who hate women.

[LeftyMom]

74. He was stopped trying to get into a sorority, where he was on his way to kill "hot blond sluts" who

rejected him.

His stated goal was a "war on women" (his words) who he hoped would eventually be rounded up and put into concentration camps to starve, except a few who would be held captive for breeding.

You can only fail to see the hatred of women behind his actions if you close your eyes and stop your ears and hum really loudly. It wasn't a secret. He posted videos and a 140 page manifesto about how women had wronged him by failing to find his creepy ass attractive. He was stopped trying to break into a sorority with 3 guns and hundreds of rounds of ammo. He wanted to kill women. It's not up for debate.

[LeftyMom]

83. So your argument was that he wasn't a misogynist because he was a piss poor criminal?

With a side of RW argument about how schools need MOAR GUNS?

The IV police stopped him. He wrecked his car on the way to the sorority house. They exchanged gunfire. He killed himself. None of this is news.

If he hadn't wrecked his car and if the parents hadn't alerted the IV police to his plans (he emailed them his manifesto) a whole house full of sorority girls would be dead. Your argument that he wasn't a misogynist because he failed to kill the women he was targeting is horseshit.

[XemaSab]

91. Can you be more patronizing?

[cherokeeprogressive]

92. Like you're not?

[LeftyMom]

94. You can feel fucking free to stop talking to me like a child, Scooter.

:musses hair:

[cherokeeprogressive]

96. Dialing it back, with a qualification...

Implying I'm a RWer with a fantasy about more guns everywhere, then getting offended at my response isn't how reasoned discussion takes place.

"I've known you for a long time and know you to be nothing less than truthful." Did you miss that part?

[Gravitycollapse]

97. "Personally I hope he's burning in hell already." - How can you be so off the cuff with sadism?

[seaglass]

100. He did get out of his car and pounded on the door of the sorority house. It was his first stop,

the door was locked and no one let him in.

http://www.ibtimes.com/elliot-rodger-ucsb-shooter-update-sheriff-details-night-mass-murder-confirms-identity-1589900

The Santa Barbara County sheriff’s office released a report detailing the events of Friday night leading up to Rodger’s death. The report alleges that Rodger stabbed to death three unidentified males in his apartment before heading to the UCSB Alpha Phi sorority house, located on Embarcadero del Norte. Rodger was loudly knocking on the front door for a period of time before crossing the street and shooting three women, including Weiss and Cooper, while the third victim was treated for several gunshot wounds at a nearby hospital.

[cherokeeprogressive]

138. My apology. I was not aware of that. I'm sorry. n/t

[whopis01]

125. He did leave his car and attempt to get into a sorority house

The door was locked with an electronic keypad lock mechanism. He was banging on the door, and (wisely) no one let him in.

In his published plan, he was going to get into the sorority house and "slaughter every single one of them" (his words). He also stated that he had "sat outside it in [his] car to stalk them many times" (also his words).

The women that he shot were outside of the sorority house. After that he left and got back in his car, going to the deli and then on from there.

[cherokeeprogressive]

137. I did not have that information at the time, and I apologize. n/t

[ecstatic]

79. I think this is a little off track. Yes, his videos were misogynistic because he's...well...

whatever his diagnosis is. We can't start a serious dialogue on misogyny based on the ramblings of an impaired person.

[XemaSab]

81. Thank you for telling me

that actual, literal sexism isn't actually, literally sexist.

I needed a man to point that out and I'm better now. I'll go finish the dishes.

[ecstatic]

82. lol. I'm against sexism, and I am a woman, btw.

But seriously, there are a lot of examples coming from Limbaugh, repubs in general... until we know more about Rodger's diagnosis, we can't really use his opinion. If it wasn't sex, it would have been something else driving him over the edge.

[PeaceNikki]

85. His 140 page manifesto was a good glimpse into his views on women and life.

Here's a snip:

The ultimate evil behind sexuality is the human female. They are the main instigators of sex. They control which men get it and which men don’t. Women are flawed creatures, and my mistreatment at their hands has made me realize this sad truth. There is something very twisted and wrong with the way their brains are wired. They think like beasts, and in truth, they are beasts. Women are incapable of having morals or thinking rationally. They are completely controlled by their depraved emotions and vile sexual impulses. Because of this, the men who do get to experience the pleasures of sex and the privilege of breeding are the men who women are sexually attracted to… the stupid, degenerate, obnoxious men. I have observed this all my life. The most beautiful of women choose to mate with the most brutal of men, instead of magnificent gentlemen like myself.

Women should not have the right to choose who to mate and breed with. That decision should be made for them by rational men of intelligence. If women continue to have rights, they will only hinder the advancement of the human race by breeding with degenerate men and creating stupid, degenerate offspring. This will cause humanity to become even more depraved with each generation. Women have more power in human society than they deserve, all because of sex. There is no creature more evil and depraved than the human female.

Women are like a plague. They don’t deserve to have any rights. Their wickedness must be contained in order prevent future generations from falling to degeneracy. Women are vicious, evil, barbaric animals, and they need to be treated as such.
...
The first strike against women will be to quarantine all of them in concentration camps. At these camps, the vast majority of the female population will be deliberately starved to death. That would be an efficient and fitting way to kill them all off. I would take great pleasure and satisfaction in condemning every single woman on earth to starve to death. I would have an enormous tower built just for myself, where I can oversee the entire concentration camp and gleefully watch them all die. If I can’t have them, no one will, I’d imagine thinking to myself as I oversee this. Women represent everything that is unfair with this world, and in order to make the world a fair place, they must all be eradicated.

A few women would be spared, however, for the sake of reproduction. These women would be kept and bred in secret labs. There, they will be artificially inseminated with sperm samples in order to produce offspring. Their depraved nature will slowly be bred out of them in time.
Future generations of men would be oblivious to these remaining women’s existence, and that is for the best. If a man grows up without knowing of the existence of women, there will be no desire for sex. Sexuality will completely cease to exist. Love will cease to exist. There will no longer be any imprint of such concepts in the human psyche. It is the only way to purify the world.

[LisaL]

86. He hated women and men who could get women.

So pretty much everyone with normal social skills.
Four of his six murdered victims were men.

[PeaceNikki]

87. Yes, but many more were going to be women. He couldn't get into the sorority house he'd planned to.

He was filled with toxic ideology most specifically a very concentrated desire to rid the world of women. Also, misogyny is the root of those young men being killed as well. Whether it was a factor in his behavior seems obvious to anyone with eyes or ears.

[Violet_Crumble]

88. That's some seriously fucked up shit n/t

[PeaceNikki]

89. yes. slightly misogynistic.

And that's just a taste. There's a lot of that in there. He threw drinks at women for not looking at him when he drive by them.

[Violet_Crumble]

93. Yeah, just a tad...

I haven't read that manifesto, and after that taster, don't think I will. But I don't see how anyone who has seen even that bit of it could try to say that arsehole wasn't a total, way off the charts, misogynist. Hell, put him next to some of the ones I've seen online, and he makes their looniness and hate look downright mild...

[Gravitycollapse]

95. Yeah, but that's probably just because he hated drinks for being so popular with women.

If you've made it this far into my post, welcome...this is where we make fun of all the morons in this thread.

Honestly, I can't fucking believe the kind of arguments being made here.

[Gormy Cuss]

127. Oof!

Your subject line is a great send-up of the kind of tortured reasoning used by some to downplay the misogyny.

[redqueen]

128. I wish I could be even the SLIGHTEST BIT surprised by the idiotic arguments here.

Sadly, this place has changed for the worse. A lot worse.

[seaglass]

101. When I was reading that I was thinking about the horror those people would feel if/when they

recognized themselves in his manifesto/autobiography.

[shanti]

129. He called many of his "enemies" out by their full names

in his manifesto. He was a very sick young man.

[Demit]

132. Yes, and if my aunt had wheels she'd be a teacart.

That's what this trope of 'if it wasn't sex it would have been something else' reminds me of.

This guy was utterly, utterly focused on beautiful women and how they were rejecting him (by not noticing that he existed). He cancelled classes multiple times when he saw there were beautiful women attending and they were laughing & talking with men that weren't him. He hated them for being able to choose who to give their affections to. He said outright that he would make them pay for that.

As someone said upthread, He didn't set out on a rampage to get skateboarders or martial arts students. Because they weren't the ones responsible for his shameful state of still being a virgin. He set out to kill the beautiful blonde women because they were the ones denying him sex.

I don't understand why you want to hand-wave this guy's stated motive away. He was painfully clear.

[TheFrenchRazor]

119. good luck; DU is willfully ignorant when it comes to misogyny. as far as DU is concerned,

concerned, misogyny is "inevitable," as you put it. "That's just the way it is, little lady," might be another way to say it. it is off the table for discussion, just like the existence of the laws of physics. it just is.