WTF "mental illness" did Rodger Elliot have that allegedly made him do what he did?

[moriah]

The only thing I can find is a reference to him having Asperger's. Not a condition that requires meds or gives people psychotic delusions. Really, he sounds like half of 4chan.

So why these threads about needing to "do something" about the mentally ill who don't take their meds? He may have been psycho, but no evidence I can see calls him insane.

[Neoma]

1. People think psycho = mentally ill.

I personally don't know what condition psycho is though.

[shenmue]

2. Psychosis

As far as I've heard, it means the person has had a break with reality.

[XemaSab]

3. There's a massive difference between psychotic and psychopathic

Hearing voices is the former, viewing people as disposable is the latter.

[Gravitycollapse]

53. Being psychotic does not mean you hear voices.

And hearing voices does not mean you're psychotic.

[rustydog]

86. It depends on what the voices are telling you

and if you intend to follow their direction. I know of one person who, when taking his medications is one of the nicest, most polite persons in the world. When he decides he doesn't need the medication, the voices become more persuasive and, when he listens to them and consents to their wishes, he tries to kill people.

How do we force this guy to take his meds? Do we have a right to force him to take meds against his will? His doctor decided to "try this brand" and see what happens!!!! psychotic break, tasered by police, locked in an ER safe room for days...Is it the mentally ill person's fault or the physician trying a new drug pedaled to him by a pharmacy rep?

As a society, we have a "right" to our collective safety...But don't the Americans with disabilities have the same rights?

[Neoma]

12. I think one doctor said I had that once.

I mainly just paced back and forth and complained about agoraphobia.

[treestar]

16. He was broken with reality

He probably could have got a girlfriend if he didn't have such a negative view of himself. It could be he simply assumed he'd be rejected. There is not that much information out there as to what he actually experienced.

[moriah]

9. When people do hard to explain things, we often call them crazy.

But that doesn't mean they're actually mentally ill.

If the family is trying to use his Asperger's diagnosis as a copout, it makes me angry as well as sad.

[dixiegrrrrl]

35. If a condition is in the Mental Health book of disorders,

it has an official lable of a mental disorder.

surely we can agree that no sane person decides to go on a killing spree?

[tabasco]

59. Absolutely not do I agree with that.

There are sane people who go on killing sprees.

They know exactly what they are doing and choose to do so.

[ann---]

27. Psychotic

[NobodyHere]

4. Thinking that going on a mass murder spree will solve something

is pretty insane in my books.

His thought process obviously needed a overhaul.

I think it's sad that even with all the mental health resources he had access to, the outcome was ultimately murder. It's sad that one can build up all that anger and not find a healthier way to cope with it.

[moriah]

5. Yeah, but not the kind of insane they give pills for.

And the kinds of insane people take pills for don't make people go on shooting sprees very often.

[WinkyDink]

14. Just look what it did to Dubya!

[treestar]

18. I'm thinking depression

Since this was suicide, taking other people with him. That depression could have made him delusional about whether he could really get any dates, and he blamed them when it was he that didn't make the right moves. Asked the wrong girls, or didn't even ask and assumed.

[LisaL]

107. He didn't expect it to solve anything. He wanted revenge on society.

[Kalidurga]

6. He had the kind of illness where we can all rest assured

that guns aren't a problem. It's an isolated incident by a lone crazy person nothing to see here. We don't have to talk about the reason people do these things other than to blame whoever or whatever our personal boogy man is. And we certainly don't need to talk about how men are encouraged to act out violently rather than express their emotions in a non-violent way.

[deathrind]

111. /\ This.

This guy knew exactly what he was doing. But people will paint this horrific act as being due to mental illness and it is not. It is an act of choice by a person who had full control of his actions.

[Ron Green]

7. My guess is that he was Axis II, not Axis I.

In other words, a personality disorder rather than a psychosis of some sort.

[Chemisse]

31. That's what I was thinking.

Which would explain why he may have been off-putting to women.

As far as the violence, it's hard to know what motivated him. In that video he made, he seems narcissistic. This may have been a way to get lots of attention. He also seemed like he was acting - not expressing deeply felt emotions. So I wonder if he may have been sociopathic.

[magical thyme]

96. I sensed deep emotions behind the play-acting

A couple times I sensed he came close to breaking into tears.

[pnwmom]

61. Except that he had been prescribed medications and that is not indicate

that he only had a personality disorder.

None of us know what he really had.

[Skidmore]

112. This is my thinking as well.

BPD?

[TransitJohn]

8. He was a sociopath.

Seems cut and dried.

[Neoma]

21. And there's medicine for that?

[TransitJohn]

24. Probably not.

Maybe I'm confusing psychiatry with social science. Dude did not conform to the norms of society, and, it would seem to me, that was his illness.

[winter is coming]

26. I don't believe there's any effective treatment for that. n/t

[Neoma]

34. That's why it's not generally classified as a mental illness.

[Prophet 451]

95. Not yet

We're not yet sure what causes it but some of teh latest research suggests that it may be possible to teach a sociopath to feel empathy.

[WinkyDink]

10. You need to ask? Affluenza! AKA: "I'm rich, so why ain't I adored?"

[Logical]

11. LOL, ok doctor. n-t

[Shandris]

13. He's more than just delusional, and any comparison between him and 4chan would have to...

...overlook the concept of degree. He actively didn't see people as their own entities. ACTIVELY. To the point where it comes across as satire or trolling. If someone had posted something that obviously insane, most people would have thought "there's no way this guy is real, NO ONE can be that blind to the nature of reality" and, if I know that type of person well enough, made a snide comment about 'so edgy'.

Now, I agree that many - if not all - of the 'do something' threads about the mentally ill are probably completely out of place (I haven't been paying attention to them for the most part), but don't do the exact opposite by overlooking the obvious clues that something was WAY WRONG with this guy just to keep people from reaching the wrong conclusions. Neither side is helpful, or honest, about their goals. It's often said that 'insane' isn't a word mental health professionals use, and there's likely a good reason for this, but as a generic classification used by laypeople, a 'psycho' -is- insane and there's no denying that this man was.

[moriah]

17. I was referring to the Asperger's and being all "Why won't womenz date me?" whiny.

With the 4chan thing.

But while we can agree it's messed up in the head to shoot someone, it's not necessarily criminally insane. I have seen nothing to indicate he was clinically mentally ill enough for it to be the cause of the murders.

[Shandris]

23. Ohhh, okay I see what you're meaning.

No, I totally agree with that. No mental illness sufficient to cause murders, full stop, nor is even sociopathy or psychopathy necessarily criminally insane.

[pnwmom]

77. His family is reported to have said he was hearing voices and showing signs of

extreme paranoia.

What would be "clinically ill enough for it to be the cause of the murders"?

[magical thyme]

97. do you have a source for that?

I found exactly one article claiming that earlier today, but no source that I would trust.

http://radaronline.com/exclusives/2014/05/ucsb-mass-shooter-refused-psychiatric-medicines-parents-in-hiding/

[pnwmom]

98. In view of the circumstances, I bet that source is correct. Also, the family's attorney

said Rodgers was being cared for by "multiple professionals" and that he was refusing to take the "psychotropic" drugs he had been prescribed.

That was just a brief statement in another article in the LA paper, I believe.

[LisaL]

105. That is her source, and it attributes this claim to an anonymous source, not his family.

[seaglass]

15. I have only heard undisclosed mental illness and he said his Dr. prescribed risperidone but he

(Rodger) researched it and refused to take it.

[moriah]

20. First I heard about a prescrption refusal, I'll try to find linkage.

Thanks.

[seaglass]

22. It's in his "manifesto." n/t

[MannyGoldstein]

19. So what's you're point?

If someone goes off and murders a bunch of people, I think they are, ipso facto, a defective unit. Their mind is broken.

As to Aspergers... It doesn't exist anymore as a diagnosis, IIRC it's been subsumed into spectrum autism disorders. My wife and i work with families of these kids. Many are achingly lonely, they grow up bullied and with no friends. They are sad, neurotic. Most don't get the help they need to get a toehold into human society, even those whose parents are fabulously successful. Most are on meds, often a bunch of 'em - antidepressants, stimulants (many have co-diagnoses of ADHD), and so forth.

That's not an excuse for what this person did, at all. Most like him don't kill, or wound. But they have mental illness and there is great frustration. And things could be done better much of the time.

[moriah]

25. Maybe us other "defective units" don't like being labeled in with murderers.

Those of us with disorders that require meds to keep the person from possibly becoming a danger to others (because yeah, when I'm manic I can be an extremely reckless driver) generally take them. And the people that go out and commit murder and blame it on a mental illness like Asperger's (or ASD in the newer speak) piss me off.

There are a few legitimate cases of being criminally insane. Andrea Yates, for example. This guy was just a pissed off murderer.

[Chemisse]

33. He didn't call people with Aspergers defective units

He said,

"If someone goes off and murders a bunch of people, I think they are, ipso facto, a defective unit."

It's really hard to argue with that.

[MannyGoldstein]

43. Was my post *that* unclear?

Sometimes I wonder if my writing's an issue, or if people are looking to get into a scrap, or what.

Thanks for stating what I actually meant.

[Chemisse]

55. Your writing was perfectly clear, which is why all I had to do was repeat what you'd already said.

I think that people are so sensitive about some topics that they see an insult where none was intended.

[pnwmom]

62. I read that he had been prescribed meds that he didn't take. n/t

[Spider Jerusalem]

32. Fucksake. Autism is not a mental illness.

It's a neurodevelopmental disorder.

...it is important to note that ASD is a lifelong developmental disability, not a mental illness. Although, individuals with ASD are more vulnerable than their peers to secondary mental health issues, their ASD cannot be ‘cured’ and any mental health issues need to be addressed in the context of their disability.

http://ec.europa.eu/health/archive/ph_determinants/life_style/mental/green_paper/mental_gp_co017.pdf

[Neoma]

38. That needs to be pointed out more often.

I sort of knew that but didn't know the term.

[MannyGoldstein]

39. Could you have written that with a little less anger?

Autism Spectrum Disorder is typically diagnosed using the criteria in the DSM, currently the DSM-5.

DSM, in turn, stands for "Diagnostic and Statistical Manual for Mental Disorders".

So I get what your saying, but I don't think I'm particularly wrong, certainly not "fucksake" wrong.

In truth, nobody knows what the hell ASD is. But there's definitely a group of people with challenges, and their are some treatments that can help. And many treatments that are bogus, too.

[Spider Jerusalem]

47. No, I really couldn't.

I am autistic. I am sick of ignorant people who don't know what the fuck they're talking about saying "autism is a mental illness". And yes, you are particularly wrong. ASD is a hard-wired and incurable neurological difference, not a mental illness caused by brain chemistry and neurotransmitters.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=autism+%22not+a+mental+illness%22&num=100&source=lnms&tbm=bks

[MannyGoldstein]

48. I don't think we know what it is.

I don't think that we can point to a specific physical difference and say "that difference is the cause of autism". We also don't know if "spectrum autism disorder" is a single disorder.

FWIW, my sister is a very, very smart psychologist (Harvard/Berkley), who's come to the conclusion that diagnosing any of these issues is dicey stuff because nobody really knows what's going on. She prefers to focus on specific behaviors that are causing people's lives to suffer, and to treat those problems with specific therapies that tend to work. And to try different things until something works, because it's hard to tell what *will* work.

[Spider Jerusalem]

49. That's probably because it's not "physical", it's neurological.

There are observed and consistent differences; autistics have larger brains, a higher proportion of white matter to grey matter, and significant structural differences in various brain areas. No, we can't say that any one factor is a specific cause. The data we have indicate that the cause is probably some combination of genetics + environment (autistic tendencies run in families, for instance). However we can say that there are specific features common to the neurology of autistic disorders that are distinct. (I've participated in fMRI studies examining some of those differences.)

[MannyGoldstein]

52. Neurological *is* physical, I think.

For example, all of the known correlations that you've mentioned. But IIRC these variations are not large: for example, we could not diagnose a person as having ASD based on any of these, because the normal variability from person to person is much greater than the change due to ASD.

[Spider Jerusalem]

58. Acutally, we can:

Two different studies, similar results:

http://www.webmd.com/brain/autism/news/20110902/mri-shows-differences-in-autistic-brain
http://health.usnews.com/health-news/family-health/brain-and-behavior/articles/2011/05/31/study-suggests-special-mri-might-help-diagnose-autism

Although diagnosis usually comes from observation of behaviour and things like MRI tend to confirm observational diagnoses (except in the case of high-functioning autistics, who may not be diagnosed as such until relatively late in life due to high intelligence and superior academic performance).

[MannyGoldstein]

60. Interesting, thank you. nt

[dionysus]

71. wouldn't be the first time manny stuck his foot in.. just sayin...

[deathrind]

28. This can be analyzed from a...

Million different directions and it will, but at the end of the day this was a person who knew right from wrong and made a conscieous decision to hurt/kill other people. He was not a mentally ill person who did not have control of himself.

[VanillaRhapsody]

30. No he was definitely mentally ill....he was living at a halfway house for that condition....

[deathrind]

37. He knew right from wrong.

He willingly made a choice to do wrong.

[VanillaRhapsody]

40. He was being treated for psychosis....prior to this....he refused to medicate...

he lived at a house for people WITH such problems....you cannot just sweep that under the rug.

[deathrind]

46. You cannot blame what he did...

On an "illness". He knew what he was doing. He planned it out before hand and than carried it out. He even recorded a mission statement about it.

[VanillaRhapsody]

68. Yes I can....he WAS mentally ill....seriously....he had delusions of granduer AND

a diagnosis of schizophrenia....He is 22 yrs old....right in the window of when young men fall victim to it...classic.

[deathrind]

83. That is your prerogative.

[VanillaRhapsody]

89. It is not JUST my prerogative....it is what it is....

he was diagnosed previously as schizophrenic....what part of THAT is not severe mental illness?

[pnwmom]

76. Are you his psychiatrist? How do you know his state of mind at the time of the killings? n/t

[deathrind]

82. He pretty much stated his state,

Of mind in his videos. He gave lucid, clear and concise reasons for what he was planning to do. This was not a person who "snapped" in the heat of the moment. He knew what he was doing and knew the consequence of his actions. That is not a mentally ill person, it is a person filled with hate wanting to inflict pain by choice on others.

[pnwmom]

88. His family says he was mentally ill, that he exhibited "severe paranoia" and heard voices

and that a team of doctors was trying to treat him but he wasn't cooperating and he wasn't taking his medications.

So who are you to say that you know better than all of them?

[LisaL]

104. You can keep repeating that but it doesn't make it true.

[pnwmom]

109. What do you know that proves it isn't?

http://radaronline.com/exclusives/2014/05/ucsb-mass-shooter-refused-psychiatric-medicines-parents-in-hiding/

His parents, Hollywood director Peter Rodger and his ex-wife, Li Chin, are now in hiding, staying at a hotel, as they try to come to grips with what their son is believed to have done.

“Elliot has always been troubled and couldn’t express himself,” the source tells us.

“His parents did everything they could to help him. It seemed that Elliot suffered from extreme paranoia and heard voices, but it was impossible to properly diagnose because he just wouldn’t talk. Having been prescribed psychiatric medication, Elliot refused to take it.

“Before moving from L.A. to Santa Barbara, he had been seeing a mental health professional for years, and his parents got a team of doctors for him to continue to see after his move. Their hearts break for the victims and their families.”


http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304811904579586152879924542?mg=reno64-wsj&url=http%3A%2F%2Fonline.wsj.com%2Farticle%2FSB10001424052702304811904579586152879924542.html


According to Mr. Rodger's circulated document, his parents last year took him to a psychiatrist, who prescribed Risperidone, an anti-psychotic commonly used to treat the symptoms of schizophrenia and bipolar disorder. But Mr. Rodger believed it was the "the absolute wrong thing for me to take," and refused to take it, he wrote.

[LisaL]

103. No, he wasn't.

He was living in apartments catering to college students without any conditions.

[LibDemAlways]

106. He was not living at a halfway house. He

was living in an apartment building in a college community. His roommates were UCSB students.

[VanillaRhapsody]

29. he was also psychotic.....

they wanted him to take psychotropic drugs for schizophrenia...

[pnwmom]

65. That's what I read, too.

[LittleBlue]

36. People are assuming he's crazy because

he sounds crazy and did something crazy.

Not sure we'll ever actually have a diagnosis, though, as it's difficult to diagnose a dead person.

[VanillaRhapsody]

41. Yes he had a diagnosis....they tried to put him on a drug for schizophrenia....he refused.

[Neoma]

44. Who did?

I've had doctors who are not in the mental health field randomly trying to prescribe me drugs for depression, no reference as to needing a psychiatrist either. One tried pushing Paxil, the other Xanax. Neither of those would help as they diagnosed me completely wrong.

[VanillaRhapsody]

63. No it was not simple Depression....

He was living in a home with other's with issues.....

[Neoma]

67. Well, it's good that they tried to help.

But people with "simple" depression also lives in places like that. Nothing is simple about depression.

[pnwmom]

66. His psychiatrist. n/t

[LittleBlue]

50. Ahh good to know

Thanks for the info.

[Gravitycollapse]

54. They supposedly wanted to put him on an atypical antipsychotic which is used to treat many things.

And not just schizophrenia or even psychotic disorders.

[LisaL]

102. Inlcuding behavioral issues in persons with autism.

Asperger's is considered a form of autism, and he clearly had behavioral issues.

[LisaL]

101. This drug can be prescribed for numerous other conditions and not just schizophrenia.

[Iggo]

42. He had fuckmeoriwillkillyou.

[Neoma]

45. I approve of this message.

[Avalux]

51. I read his manifesto; from that and other details, he fits the sociopath profile.

Sociopathy is a mental disorder; however, it is not treatable. These people have a lack of empathy for others and are unable to comprehend that others have their own thoughts and feelings. They have no conscience.

[Gravitycollapse]

56. You will find that, by checking the DSM, there is no disorder called "sociopathy" or "psychopathy."

I have to wonder exactly what "profile" it is you are comparing him to.

[pnwmom]

64. The new name for those conditions is "antisocial personality disorder."

So it still exists. And disorders like this often co-exist with mental illnesses such as bipolar, depression, schizophrenia, and others.

http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/antisocial-personality-disorder/basics/definition/con-20027920

[Avalux]

69. You're correct - the proper medical term is antisocial personality disorder.

Sociopathy is the behavioral pattern exhibited by people with APD.

http://www.nimh.nih.gov/statistics/1Antisocial.shtml

[treestar]

57. Since these people kill themselves so often

We don't have a trial to know whether they are even going to claim it.

It may be scary to think there are people so evil they will do these things, knowing what they are doing? The idea they might be mentally ill gives us some hope we can prevent these acts. If they are not, they can plan the act and there is no preventing it.

It helps gun people justify people having guns, since they are not mentally ill.

[dionysus]

70. undiagnosed psychopathy? to me you'd have to be batshit insane to kill people.

[Neoma]

72. And what do you consider to be, "batshit insane?"

[pnwmom]

73. Paranoid schizophrenia is a good possibility in this case.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024999665

[Neoma]

79. Do you consider all those with this disorder to be batshit insane?

That's not always the case, as I've met people with it.

[pnwmom]

80. Probably not. But there's a higher proportion, especially among those who fail

to take needed anti-psychotics.

[Neoma]

84. My title was wrong, edited.

Last edited Mon May 26, 2014, 12:43 AM - Edit history (1)

People with this disorder is usually not violent. But! If he did some cocaine...anyone ever think of that? Know the autopsy report?

[pnwmom]

87. You are way, way off. Average age of onset for men: 18. For women, 25.

He's been exhibiting symptoms for years and is the classic age to have developed schizophrenia.

http://www.schizophrenia.com/szfacts.htm#

Schizophrenia is a disease that typically begins in early adulthood; between the ages of 15 and 25. Men tend to get develop schizophrenia slightly earlier than women; whereas most males become ill between 16 and 25 years old, most females develop symptoms several years later, and the incidence in women is noticably higher in women after age 30. The average age of onset is 18 in men and 25 in women. Schizophrenia onset is quite rare for people under 10 years of age, or over 40 years of age.

[Neoma]

92. Hmm, I misread my source, thanks.

[dionysus]

74. a violent sociopath. that said, most sociopaths aren't violent,nor are most insane people i'd reckon

an even tinier % of people who are mentally ill aren't violent either.

hence the qualifier "batshit" insane

[pnwmom]

75. His family said he was exhibiting signs of extreme paranoia and heard voices.

So paranoid schizophrenia is a possibility, and so is bipolar, with a psychotic breakdown.

[LisaL]

99. His family didn't say it.

Anonymous source supposedly told it to radar online.

[Neoma]

78. Clarify, you said that kind of awkwardly.

Do you mean that the mass majority of people who are mentally ill aren't violent either?

[dionysus]

93. of course the vast majority of mentally ill ppl aren't violent. i have GAD and panic disorder. never

once have I thought of shooting up the joint.

I'd say people with some forms of mental illnesses who are undiagnosed or untreated are more like to harm themselves, out of despair, or self medication (raises hand), than they are to hurt someone else.

[Neoma]

94. Okay.

I agree with all that.

[Jamastiene]

81. Rec #5 for this OP and a kick.

There seem to be a lot of telepathic magical thinking armchair psychologist wannabes on DU any time there is a mass shooting. They start harping on "the mentally ill" and blaming us for pretty much most violence that ever happens, and talking about what to do with us.

That is, when they are not saying the shooter MUST have been gay.

Anything to try to take attention off the one concrete fact that the shooters all had one very specific thing in common; they all used guns to kill people. Nah, it couldn't be the guns. If they didn't have guns, they'd club people to death or stab them to death or just look at them hard and magically make them die on the spot...and do it just as proficiently as they could with a gun. You know, because bringing a knife to a gun fight is a sure fire way to inflict JUST AS MUCH damage as having a gun, pointing it at other human beings, pulling the damn trigger and killing them.

[pnwmom]

90. His family said he had been showing signs of extreme paranoia and heard voices.

That he had a team of therapists and was refusing to cooperate or take his medications. And we know they were so worried they called the police about him.

Why do you think he wasn't mentally ill when the people closest to him say he was?

[LisaL]

100. No, his family didn't say anything of the sort.

[ecstatic]

85. I would say all killers are mentally ill in one way or another

Some more than others... The lines are becoming really blurry. The killer put a lot of thought and time into preparing for the crime (videos and manifesto, bought weapons, and ammunition).

[Louisiana1976]

108. Well said. People in their right mind don't do such things.

[NealK]

91. K&R n/t

[intaglio]

110. As I posted elsewhere

His illness, if any, has little bearing on his actions.

The parents have admitted that he was not diagnosed with Aspergers but that he was using an anti-psychotic that is widely prescribed for several mental states and that he had been in therapy for 9 or 10 years.