John Kerry to Snowden: "Man up" and "Trust American system of justice"

[DanM]

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/kerry-tells-snowden-man-home-23893685

Yeah, well firstly, Kerry going macho with "man up" reminds me of Bush saying "bring it on". Also, Kerry breaking bad trying to get all masculine caused me to almost fall off my chair laughing.

Secondly, isn't that the same system of Justice that dealt so "fairly" with good citizens like Daniel Ellsberg? Yeah, thought so.

[Sanity Claws]

1. I don't trust the American system of justice

Why should Snowden?
BTW, I practiced law for over twenty years. We don't have a justice system; we have a legal system which exists to perpetuate the powers that be. Fuck 'em.

[840high]

15. ....

[hobbit709]

23. Yep. Ask any person of color if they trust the American system of justice.

Ask any pot smoker if they trust it.
Ask any person that the cops have singled out for any reason whatsoever if they trust it.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

29. 27 years here.

while I agree in some cases that what you say is true, I am also frequently and pleasantly surprised when the system works and works well. But isn't that the duty of ours, to strive for a better legal system? Fair, honest, accessible to all, and cost effective?

Several things are the most possible when a huge case with explosive PR and coverage reaches trial.

a. the OJ effect. A weak judge, showboating counsel, and a DA who was way out of their league, added to too much TV coverage, and you get a fiasco.

b. the Giuliani effect. A politically minded, lying cheat of a prosecutor who has a favorable judge and uses every dirty trick to guarantee a legal travesty.

c. the good judge effect. The public eye and conversation keep all attorneys on the straight and narrow, the judge rules on evidence and law, rather than some less savory reasons, and the jury decides the case on a well presented factual case.

[Pholus]

2. That entire interview was rather defensive. I take it as a sign that the final revelations...

might be rather unsavory.

[randome]

6. It's been nearly a year now.

Are you still holding your breath for Greenwald's 'fireworks display'?

Face it. The very first thing they led off with was a misinterpreted PowerPoint slide that they claimed showed the NSA collects everything. When in reality it simply highlighted a secure FTP transfer point for data obtained via warrant.

That was what they hoped would usher in their Libertarian Utopia. It was an epic fail. And the more Snowden makes his nonsense claims, such as that he could eavesdrop on the President or that he had been trained as a spy, the more clear it is that there never was much to their claims in the first place.

I don't have a dog in this show but if you are pinning your 'hopes' on whatever these two say, I think you will be disappointed.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Don't ever underestimate the long-term effects of a good night's sleep.[/center][/font][hr]

[Scuba]

8. Hilarious. You should consider stand up comedy.

[bullwinkle428]

20. "I don't have a dog in this show..."

I am DYING over here!!!!

[QC]

33. "I don't have a dog in this show..."

[Pholus]

11. We'll see I guess.

The least "least untruthful" thing you said was your last sentence. You have had a VERY opinionated dog in this show since June of last year.

Why would you misrepresent yourself on this?

[randome]

27. I have an opinion. I don't care one way or the other if the NSA is shut down.

And I think it's a lazy sort of 'protest' to put more time and energy into what the NSA could be doing to someone, somewhere rather than on far more important things.

The only reason Snowden has become a 'hero' to some is that he made a public spectacle of himself. But if this is what 'standing up to the establishment' has come to mean, I fear for the future.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]The truth doesn’t always set you free.
Sometimes it builds a bigger cage around the one you’re already in.[/center][/font][hr]

[Pholus]

46. Of course. Proof is required. Your June 2013 argument redux.

"what the NSA could be doing" is a demand for proof.

I wanted proof as well -- to wit, a summary of what is being done so that I as a citizen of this country can understand and support or not-support what is being done in my name. You know, the process of democracy! But a few Bushies made the decision that this was too sensitive to trust to the people and so was hidden.

That proof would never have been forthcoming without Snowden deciding to break the law.

That proof resulted in reforms for the system due to President Obama's political instincts. The reforms may be cosmetic, but most importantly are there because it was obvious that many portions of the program stunk.

You can win the argument of course, simply by demonstrating that the Intelligence Oversight and Surveillance Reform Act would have occurred without public pressure due to Snowden's disclosures.

In other words, where is the proof that Snowden DIDN'T do a public service?

[randome]

51. There are a hell of a lot of national security actions that are hidden from us. That's as should be.

Snowden made a spectacle of himself and it encouraged some reforms. That's clear.

Personally, I think one of the proposed reforms -putting metadata in the hands of a third-party- makes it more likely the data will be misused so I'm not sure if a 'public service' can be tagged to what Snowden did.

Everything else he and Greenwald have been talking about always conveniently leaves out whether or not foreign suspects are involved. Since the NSA is forbidden by law from spying on American citizens, it's difficult to know what they want to happen. Do they want us to be outraged that a spying agency spies on non-Americans?

I truly don't get why Snowden merits the attention. I guess it's all a 'fireworks display' as Greenwald says.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Birds are territorial creatures.
The lyrics to the songbird's melodious trill go something like this:
"Stay out of my territory or I'll PECK YOUR GODDAMNED EYES OUT!"[/center][/font][hr]

[Pholus]

58. Conflation.

Of course, operational details need to be hidden. POLICY details should not be.

Your arguments are weakening. Try to tell me with a straight face that when the dust settles the metadata holders WON'T be the same handful of beltway bandits providing the NSA their contractors right now! Domestic surveillance was always about payola, nothing more.

That you might not get something is not proof of it's unimportance!

[randome]

60. I don't think the contractors ever had access to the metadata.

The only thing Snowden, as a contractor, had access to were SharePoint folders and I'm sure the NSA has done some internal housekeeping to prevent that in the future.

There is no evidence of 'payola'. Show your own proof of that. If the NSA is basically blackmailing the world or turning everything over to the corporations, they don't seem to be doing it very well.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Birds are territorial creatures.
The lyrics to the songbird's melodious trill go something like this:
"Stay out of my territory or I'll PECK YOUR GODDAMNED EYES OUT!"[/center][/font][hr]

[DanM]

18. If Snowden's claims are "nonsense", why are top politicians wasting interview time on him? n/t

[randome]

24. It needs to be addressed. You don't say 'Meh' to thieves.

Snowden was wrong about Prism. He was 'wrong' (I'm being charitable, here) about being able to spy on the President. He was wrong about the NSA downloading the Internet on a daily basis or watching our thoughts form as we type.

But he's still a thief. He says he took the job at Booz-Allen for the express purpose of stealing documents. After saying leakers should be shot in the balls, no less.

He's complicated, I'll give him that. But he isn't very bright.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font][hr]

[DanM]

31. Nonsense needs to be addressed by the top guys? You're *really* going with that?

Also, your analogy of it to the need to address thievery is a weak to non-existent connection.

[randome]

35. He was asked a question in the interview and he responded.

How is it a weak connection to point out he responded with an honest answer?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]The truth doesn’t always set you free.
Sometimes it builds a bigger cage around the one you’re already in.[/center][/font][hr]

[DanM]

63. But he didn't respond as befits simple nonsense, which is your position I'm criticizing.

In fact, Kerry sticks to the well-worn administration vilifying of whistleblowers by trotting out the as yet unsubstantiated allegation of "damage to the country" or similar claim.

"Nonsense" does not damage a country's global relationships and its relationship with its citizens. But evidence of mass warrantless surveillance, both foreign and domestic, can do so.

And many people, including Kerry, are attempting to vilify the messenger, for diversionary purposes, as one facet of damage control.

[karynnj]

67. Anyone reading the news on interactions with foreign leaders in

Last edited Wed May 28, 2014, 11:28 AM - Edit history (1)

the wake of Snowden's releases SAW that diplomacy became much more difficult - even for a Secretary of State with decades of interactions with the leaders.

You could make the case that it was the actions, not the leak of them, or that it was better to have all that out, but it takes chutzpah to deny that it damaged our relations. The only question is whether - on balance - it was worth the damage to our relationships. (Note that in recent months, there was STILL a chill in the relationship between Germany and Obama!)

Here is the link to the video.http://www.today.com/video/today/55275926#55275926 Kerry is not "villifying" Snowden. What does he excuse Snowden of. Let's see - he stole data - check; he betrayed the oath taken to protect that information - check; those actions damaged some of our relationships - clearly something no one has more authority on assessing this than Kerry.

[DanM]

96. Looks like you agree with me that Snowden's claims are not "nonsense", as randome asserts. n/t

[karynnj]

99. I agree with Randome far more than you

The fact that things Snowden said has hurt US relationships does not mean that all he said was correct. Many things he said - many listed by Randome - were shown to be at minimum inflated.

It is true that Snowden's actions - and Greenwald's articles reopened the questions on FISA and on other surveillance systems. It is possible that some good may come of that. However, there is no question that harm was done to the US. It will never be known if the disruption in relationships led to any lost opportunities to Obama's diplomacy.

Given Snowden's know libertarian/Ron Paul leanings, I think it is possible that he would have wanted to harm the more internationalism that Obama/Kerry represent. Not to mention, I would bet that his 2016 favorite is Rand Paul - so weakening Obama on foreign policy is something he would be ok with.

[Autumn]

126. For some damn reason, that dog just don't hunt

[Oilwellian]

59. When Greenwald was on Colbert's show earlier this month...

he said we will learn specific names of people our illustrious government has been spying on. Should be interesting.

[arcane1]

144. Why is he waiting? That is what frustrates me.

Get it out there so we can deal with whatever it is, I say!

[baldguy]

3. Snowden is the cause celebre du jour of the anti-govt RW libertarian fringe.

I'm sure the Koch Bros would pony up for his defense fund.

[DanM]

9. Maybe, but is Kerry right in implying that Snowden can trust an Obama administration prosecution?n/t

[blm]

36. Snowden is waiting for the next Bush administration - he trusts his BushInc masters.

You think Snowden should NOT trust the Obama administration and wait for the Bush administration.

[Autumn]

10. As a life long liberal Democrat I sure as hell would.

In a heartbeat.

[baldguy]

14. I think that's the definition of "tool".

[Autumn]

25. I'd rather be a tool than a fool.

A tool is useful and can get things done, whereas a fool.....

[baldguy]

48. You'd rather act & be treated as a thoughtless, inanimate object to be used, then thrown away

Rather than the only person at court who was allowed to tell the truth & criticize the king.

There's some underlying Freudian meaning there....

[Autumn]

119. Isn't that why people hate Snowden? He criticized the king, you know the government i.e. Obama

and told the American people about the NSA spying. I consider anyone who doesn't support the American people being told what their government is doing to them and how their privacy is being violated to be a fool.

You can bet your ass I would donate to Snowdens legal defense, no questions asked. I think he's as great a hero as Daniel Ellsberg is. if the RW libertarians support Snowden well they just happen to be right on that.

[baldguy]

139. If only he would actually tell the truth.

Every time he talks, he inflates his importance. Next, Snowden will be claiming that he's the real President of the US and that the black guy in the White House is an imposter.

[Autumn]

140. You have a real nice day baldguy

talking to someone who just makes outlandish things up is a waste of time.

[baldguy]

141. And yet we're speanding all this time & energy on the RW liar Snowden.

[woo me with science]

64. Lots of Americans cherish civil liberties.

The "argument" that since Libertarians are speaking out against mass surveillance, Democrats should *defend* mass surveillance, is probably the most idiotic talking point ever devised by the NSA defense propaganda machine.

[baldguy]

137. And that's the false choice based on a lie that RW libertarians have cast this as.

Last edited Wed May 28, 2014, 08:40 PM - Edit history (1)

Nobody argues that Hitler didn't love his dogs. But the ASPCA doesn't claim him as one of their own, and they don't stand up for his supporters or let them speak at their meetings. There's good reason for that.

Does that mean the ASPCA doesn't exist to help dogs & other animals?

[Pholus]

68. We all lose: The choices are only "libertarian fringe" or "corporate stooge..."

I have often wondered about Senator Obama's abrupt flip-flop on FISA. I don't need to wonder anymore....

http://www.alternet.org/economy/surveillance-state-and-democrats

Mustn't piss off the stakeholders, it seems...

[atreides1]

4. "American system of justice"

Really? Would that be the same system that let a rich punk ass kid get away with killing people with his car, or that gave a rich man who raped his 3 year old daughter a free pass, and let's not forget the man who had drugged and raped his wife for years...the same justice system that is keeping men locked away in a military prison without charges...that American justice system?

Kerry needs to stop smoking crack!!!

[VanillaRhapsody]

30. So tell us which country is perfectly innocent?

[randome]

37. Russia, obviously. Duh.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]The truth doesn’t always set you free.
Sometimes it builds a bigger cage around the one you’re already in.[/center][/font][hr]

[VanillaRhapsody]

39. Oh yes.....what was I THINKING???

[grahamhgreen]

5. What happened to "look forward not backward"?

[BuelahWitch]

74. Yeah, funny how that works

when you're not a member of The Club.

[Scuba]

7. Sorry, John, if you think the American system of justice is trustworthy you're a fool.

[blm]

61. Or, he was a district attorney who understood our system of justice is STILL mostly good despite

its flaws.

[Scuba]

65. Sure, that's it.

[bemildred]

12. American Justice is very corrupt, John. nt

[VanillaRhapsody]

40. Whose isn't?

[bemildred]

42. "Everybody does it." nt

[VanillaRhapsody]

43. No....I asked a question....who's isn't. This is like those who think because one person

Gets Food Stamps they don't deserve....then we MUST eliminate the Food Stamp program.

This is not a Black and White world...

[bemildred]

47. So none of that American Exceptionalism applies to our justice system, is that it?

I'm not a lawyer, I'm not going to get into comparative justice systems. I'm going to talk about the corruption of the justice system here, that I know about. It's falling apart.

[VanillaRhapsody]

49. Who uses "American Exceptionalism" term.....hmmmm?

I know who.....and so do you!

[bemildred]

50. Have a nice day. nt

[VanillaRhapsody]

52. Nailed it huh?

[bemildred]

55. Absolute genius. nt

[VanillaRhapsody]

57. Thank you!

But I am not a spy.....

[HangOnKids]

77. You are comedy GOLD!

I crack up every time I read your posts. CLASSIC!

[Autumn]

135. Our president

[closeupready]

71. 'How low can you go?'

Wow.

[dipsydoodle]

13. What was the punchline to that joke ?

.

[roody]

16. "Man up" is sexist.

[VanillaRhapsody]

41. Was that a direct quote....or is this what this poster interpretted him to say....in which case the

The poster would be the one using misogynistic phrases...

[Smarmie Doofus]

53. Direct quote.

>>>Secretary of State John Kerry on Wednesday called National Security Agency leaker Edward Snowden a fugitive and challenged him to "man up and come back to the United States."

Kerry was asked about Snowden in a nationally broadcast interview in the wake of an interview in which Snowden said he never intended to be holed up in Russia but was forced to go there because Washington decided to "revoke my passport.">>>>

[VanillaRhapsody]

54. link....

[Smarmie Doofus]

62. AP. Here:

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/kerry-tells-snowden-man-home-23893685

[karynnj]

78. The article INCORRECTLY uses direct quotes when it is the writer's interpretation.

Last edited Wed May 28, 2014, 03:26 PM - Edit history (1)

Here is the source video referenced and the closest thing said is for him to "stand up".
http://www.today.com/video/today/55275926#55275926

Actually he did say that on CBS - the op said the Today show and I looked at that and it was not there.

[m-lekktor]

84. sorry but he DID say MAN UP on this video on CBS

at 3:37 minutes in he says he should MAN UP and come back to the states, i listened to it TWICE

http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/john-kerry-on-afghanistan-syria-and-edward-snowden/

[karynnj]

92. Thanks -- He makes a very good case on the damage that Snowden has

caused. In context, I have absolutely no problem with what he said. The op's article spoke of NBC , not CBS.

[Smarmie Doofus]

125. He said "man-up".

http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/john-kerry-on-afghanistan-syria-and-edward-snowden/

The AP quote is verbatim and accurate.

[Leme]

89. good research/ thinking

Last edited Wed May 28, 2014, 01:45 PM - Edit history (1)

edit: I was in error and am posting this;

M-Lekktor found this, I am posting this

I spent over an hour looking and could not find Kerry saying "man up". The other links given here do not show him saying it. Now I get to go back and change my posts. : ( and : )
---
it is at 3:39-3:40 here


http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/john-kerry-on-afghanistan-syria-and-edward-snowden/a little rhetoric when OP stated "Yeah, well firstly, Kerry going macho with "man up" reminds me of Bush saying "bring it on"."
-

-

old post:

It sure looks like a direct quote.. but some other explanation might be possible. Kerry did not say that. Bush did say "Bring 'em on, or Bring them on".... I found Former U.S. President George W. Bush has challenged North Korea’s government and military to “Bring it on”
-
So, Kerry never said "man up" in the interview, and GW Bush has said "Bring it on".

[KoKo]

73. Agree...n/t

[karynnj]

76. Kerry did not use the phrase

http://www.today.com/video/today/55275926#55275926

[Leme]

91. nice catch OP put two "" in same sentence, one false, one true

Last edited Wed May 28, 2014, 01:43 PM - Edit history (1)

rhetoric ploy?

edit: I am posting this to correct error

M-Lekktor found this, I am posting this

I spent over an hour looking and could not find Kerry saying "man up". The other links given here do not show him saying it. Now I get to go back and change my posts. : ( and : )
---
it is at 3:39-3:40 here


http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/john-kerry-on-afghanistan-syria-and-edward-snowden/

[karynnj]

93. Actually I was wrong - there was also a CBS interview where he

did use the phrase -- while saying essentially the same thing he said on ABC, but stronger. - A poster on another of my comments gave the correction. Here is his link - http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/john-kerry-on-afghanistan-syria-and-edward-snowden/

[GeorgeGist]

17. Sorry Dan, find better links next time or stick to the story line.

No where in the link you provided did John Kerry say either of the quotes in your title.

[DanM]

21. It's a quote in the headline, and a headline quote by ABC is legitimately part of the reporting. n/t

[SidDithers]

79. No, it's not...

In the ABC headline, it's paraphrase. In your headline it's a quote.

Sid

[karynnj]

80. However - they speak of the Today show and it is not what he said

Here is the link - http://www.today.com/video/today/55275926#55275926

This is just poor journalism - or at best the journalist mishearing Kerry.

[Aerows]

107. And you just made a correction up thread because he *DID* say that.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025011247#post93

[karynnj]

111. True - in two places

I forgot this one. In context, he says the same thing in both interviews -- and in an ABC one as well. It does not significantly change what he said - originally as the article spoke of the Today show, I went and found it. I did not know he did 3 interviews.

[leftyohiolib]

19. AAAAAAAAAHAHHAHAHHAHHAHAHHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHHHHHAAAHAHHAHAHHHAHAHAHHHA

WHEW let me catch my breath ....... AAAAAHAHAHAHHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAALAOLAOLAHAHAHHAHAHA

[ecstatic]

22. "trying to get all masculine"

So you've accepted the RW portrayal of Kerry? Did you miss his speech at the 2012 DNC convention?

[DanM]

26. No, *any* politician going rhetorically "masculine" is ridiculous (e.g., Bush's "bring it on"). n/t

[karynnj]

81. First off he did not say that

(here's actual video - http://www.today.com/video/today/55275926#55275926

Second, there is a world of difference. In the Bush one, Bush, safely in DC, was taunting the terrorist to "bring it on" -- when we had troops in that area who would face the brunt of the action.

In this case, Kerry is saying that a patriot would have stayed and fought the consequences. This is his value system - and he himself spoke truth to power well aware of the consequences. Obviously, Snowden would have faced a strong possibility of going to jail. However, it may be that he is in his own strange prison - not able to get on with his life.

[KoKo]

103. "WaPo" Has it in Headline Article with quote: "man up"

John Kerry: Edward Snowden should ‘man up’ and return to the U.S.

Secretary of State John Kerry on Wednesday called for fugitive former National Security Agency contractor Edward Snowden to "man up" and return to the U.S. to face the legal consequences for his leaks about sweeping U.S. surveillance efforts.

"The bottom line is this is a man who has betrayed his country, who is sitting in Russia, an authoritarian country where he has taken refuge. He should man up and come back to the United States. If he has a complaint about what’s wrong with American surveillance, come back here and stand in our system of justice and make his case," Kerry said in an interview on "CBS This Morning."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-politics/wp/2014/05/28/john-kerry-edward-snowden-should-man-up-and-return-to-the-u-s/?tid=hpModule_ba0d4c2a-86a2-11e2-9d71-f0feafdd1394

[Aerows]

108. She had to make a correction since he did say that.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025011247#post93

[VanillaRhapsody]

28. Kerry ACTUALLY served in war....Snowden is a nutter who THINKS he is a spy

Wonder if he still has his treasure map and decoder ring?

[DanM]

32. "Appeal to Veteran Status" . . . a new category of logical fallacy?

[stevenleser]

118. No, I think that person was discussing the masculinity idea.

If you believe in that if it at all matters, veteran vs wannabe-spy

[MohRokTah]

45. Edward Snowden, Double-Naught Spy.

[bowens43]

130. serving in an illegal and immoral war is relevant because????

Snowden has at least as much credibility as Kerry

[MohRokTah]

134. "Snowden has at least as much credibility as Kerry"

Snowden isn't even as credible on anything as Louie Gohmert or Michelle Bachmann.

[bigtree]

34. justice?

. . . hardly. All the government wants is to repress Snowden and the info he's provided/providing. If they get their hands on Snowden before any immunity deal, he'll never see daylight before they've completely neutered him.

[SamKnause]

38. Why should Snowden trust the U.S. justice system ???

I don't.

We have a two tier justice system.
We have a racist justice system.
We have a corrupt justice system.

Private prisons, the fake and failed war on drugs, prosecuting whistleblowers, going after Occupy Wall Street with a vengeance, free speech zones, allowing war criminals and torturers to walk free, allowing the banks and Wall Street to crash the global economy, the attack on voting rights, the attack on women's health issues, the clueless and corrupt Supreme Court justices, the list goes on and on.

Exactly what justice system is Kerry referring to ???

I am 60 years old.

I do not trust the U.S. justice system !

[The Traveler]

117. You took the words right out of my mouth

And I am nearly your age. Thanks for posting that.

Trav

[SamKnause]

123. You are most welcome.

Hope you and yours have a safe and pleasant day.

[treestar]

132. Why shouldn't he?

As someone said upthread, people will raise funds for the best defense possible.

You've got some broad generalities here. There are trials going on in many courthouses all day today and every day. You're claiming none of it works? Lawyers can't argue the Fourth Amendment prevents a search, or that a Defendant can't invoke his right against self incrimination?

[blm]

44. Oh? Can you name the lawmaker who has effected this nation's historic RECORD more positively

than Kerry has over the last 4 decades while exposing himself to the greatest PERSONAL RISK to his life?

Kerry trying to be macho? Apparently you know very little about Kerry and the last 4 decades of this nation's history.

[truebrit71]

56. "Man up"? How republican of him...

Look John, we know you sold your soul, but let's dispense with the common man colloquialisms shall we? No-one's buying...

[KoKo]

72. Didn't he steal that from Sarah Palin?

I seem to recall her telling someone to "Man Up" but, since I try to avoid thinking about her I can't remember who she was addressing that to.

I think that a Secretary of State should conduct himself as a Diplomat and not throw out barbs/trash talk like Kerry does. It sounds ridiculous coming from him because it doesn't fit his former public persona when he served as Senator and in his Presidential Campaign. But, then, perhaps that was a "manufactured persona" and the new bellicose/clueless/trash talking Kerry is revealed.

What a disappointment he is..

[karynnj]

75. Kerry on Today.com

Last edited Wed May 28, 2014, 12:15 PM - Edit history (1)

The closest thing he said was to "stand up".

Here is a link - http://www.today.com/video/today/55275926#55275926

On CBS, he did say "man up" in comments that said nearly the same thing.

[baldguy]

138. He was talking to a Republican.

[ProSense]

66. This thread is surreal

"Trust American system of justice"

It's like people think this is going to change the fact that Snowden's only route back to the U.S. is through the justice system.

I mean, his supporters were asking for a pardon even before he was charged.

Everyone here is familiar with the U.S. justice system. It's the only one we have. Everyone has seen it work, and no one is under the delusion that it works all the time.

It's not going to disappear, not even for Snowden.

[karynnj]

85. It is surreal - for many reasons - including words Kerry did not say, that we need to defend

US justice and even more bizarrely that Russia is far less free.

It is also predictable. For the last two years, Snowden has been untouchable on DU -- even after he was used by Putin! Kerry, who is an American patriot in the best sense of the word and a person of integrity has never gotten a fraction of the support here that Snowden has received.

The short excerpt shown of Snowden is really interesting in that he seems incredibly agitated that he has not been given the esteem he feels entitled to. As to ending up in Russia, he ignores that he LEFT THE COUNTRY -- and was not trying to come back, but to reach an authoritarian state (I think Ecuador) Had he reached Ecuador, wouldn't the same question be asked - with Ecuador substituted for Russia? I wonder if he yet gets that where Greenwald gets the prizes and reward, he gets a life as an exile. In fact, the ONLY way for that not to be the case is to return and ask for mercy in the justice system.

(Here is the link - http://www.today.com/video/today/55275926#55275926 )

[TheKentuckian]

136. No, he isn't a "stakeholder" or a big Washington politician

So, if he does more than chuckle and fart in Kerry's general direction he is to stupid to piss himself if his crotch was on fire.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

69. LOL. LIke Kerry "trusted" Bush when he signed on to Bush's war? Quite "manly" of him.

[closeupready]

70. Oh, please, blow-dry John.

[m-lekktor]

86. Here is the video where Kerry says MAN UP on CBS this morning.

for those who claim he didn't say it. it's at 3:37 minutes in near the end. it is also being reported at more news sources than the one in the OP.

http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/john-kerry-on-afghanistan-syria-and-edward-snowden/

[bahrbearian]

97. Thanks for posting that

[Leme]

110. thank you very much for finding/ showing this link

I spent over an hour looking and could not find Kerry saying "man up". The other links given here do not show him saying it. Now I get to go back and change my posts. : ( and : )
---
it is at 3:39-3:40 here


http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/john-kerry-on-afghanistan-syria-and-edward-snowden/

[Orsino]

87. Which American justice system will he get?

Zing!

[jwirr]

88. John the American system of justice has changed a lot since you sat before that committee in the 70s

and many of us no longer trust it.

[ProSense]

90. Kerry: If Snowden Is A Patriot, He Should Stay In The US And Make His Case

Kerry: If Snowden Is A Patriot, He Should Stay In The US And Make His Case

Secretary of State John Kerry said Wednesday that if former National Security Agency contractor Edward Snowden was a true 'patriot,' like famed Pentagon Papers leaker Daniel Ellsburg, he would return to the U.S. and have his day in court.

"If this man is a patriot, he should stay in the United States and make his case. Patriots don't go to Russia, they don't seek asylum in Cuba, they don't seek asylum in Venezuela. They fight their cause here," Kerry told MSNBC host Chuck Todd on "The Daily Rundown."

"There are many a patriot. You can go back to the Pentagon Papers, with Dan Ellsberg and others, who stood and went to the court system of America and made their case," he continued. "Edward Snowden is a coward, he is a traitor and he has betrayed his country. If he wants to come home tomorrow to face the music, he can do so."

In his own interview with NBC News airing Wednesday night, Snowden told anchor Brian Williams that he was "personally surprised" to find himself stuck in Russia without papers after fleeing the country and placed the blame for his current situation on the State Department.

- more -

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/john-kerry-edward-snowden-asylum

Snowden To Critics: 'Ask The State Department' Why I'm In Russia
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025011211

If Snowden was a "spy," as he claimed, and didn't know the consequences of his actions, then he's in lala land. Thomas Tamm:

“He’s in for a pretty overwhelming investigation,” Tamm, now a criminal defense attorney in Rockville, Md., told POLITICO in an interview. “I think the government will use a lot of their resources to try to find him.”

But if Snowden is returned to the United States, Tamm said, “I think with the right representation, and with the right way of presenting what he did, I think he’ll be able to put his life back together.” Tamm says he’d even be willing to be part of the defense team.

http://dyn.politico.com/printstory.cfm?uuid=A9C45FF7-E7EB-44AD-9C5A-D2C7F0B7F276

There have been several prominent whistleblowers over the last several years who did not flee the country.

William Binney, Thomas Drake, and Tamm are whistleblowers who stayed and faced the consequences of their actions. They were not persecuted, they faced prosecution. They are not in jail. In fact, Tamm was the one who exposed Bush's illegal eavesdropping on Americans.

Snowden created a bigger problem for himself with the information he stole and revealed that was unrelated to NSA domestic activities. Fleeing to Russia did not help his cause. Apparently, Assange is trying to make it worse.

N.S.A. whistle-blower Edward Snowden, who handed over his trove of documents to Greenwald, has said he also doesn’t believe in Assange’s particularly uniform view on secrecy, having entrusted the cache of N.S.A. documents he lifted to journalists he trusts will evaluate the risks inherent in publishing from them.

“We don’t share identical politics,” Snowden told Vanity Fair earlier this year. “I am not anti-secrecy. I’m pro-accountability. I’ve made many statements indicating both the importance of secrecy and spying, and my support for the working-level people at the N.S.A. and other agencies. It’s the senior officials you have to watch out for.”

http://www.vanityfair.com/online/daily/2014/05/julian-assange-glenn-greenwald-nsa-afghanistan

...by revealing information that Greenwald is saying will cause people harm. The decision to release information unrelated to the domestic surveillance issues has been coming back to bite him in the ass.

“If I have time to go through this information, I would like to make it available to journalists in each country to make their own assessment, independent of my bias, as to whether or not the knowledge of US network operations against their people should be published.”

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023084875

Greenwald said that some journalists’ accounts of the Snowden leaks scandal, the impression many get is that America would turn to extraordinary methods to eliminate the threat posed by Snowden if he decided to turn over to a foreign government the information at his disposal.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023035095

"Snowden has enough information to cause harm to the U.S. government in a single minute than any other person has ever had," Greenwald said in an interview in Rio de Janeiro with the Argentinean daily La Nacion.

"The U.S. government should be on its knees every day begging that nothing happen to Snowden, because if something does happen to him, all the information will be revealed and it could be its worst nightmare."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023242606

[DanM]

101. Kerry to Snowden: "Man up" . . . Kerry's playground taunting make me want to say "grow up". n/t

[ProSense]

105. After you say it, Kerry is still right. Snowden

can choose to stay in Russia or return to the U.S. and face the justice system.

[karynnj]

115. Your "grow up" -- is no different than what you are complaining about

If Snowden wants to return to the US, he will have to stand up, return and face the justice system. Kerry is not "taunting him, he is essentially telling him to face the music.

[Leme]

94. people are quoting John Kerry as having siad the words "man up"

Last edited Wed May 28, 2014, 01:41 PM - Edit history (1)

edit:My post is in error. I am posting this where I see my error.


M-lekktor found this, I am posting this

I spent over an hour looking and could not find Kerry saying "man up". The other links given here do not show him saying it. Now I get to go back and change my posts. : ( and : )
---
it is at 3:39-3:40 here


http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/john-kerry-on-afghanistan-syria-and-edward-snowden/





old post:
I cannot find Kerry saying those words... but others now say he did.
one of those times when a description using quotes becomes a verbatim quote
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

how this came about from written description to direct quote:



Kerry argued that Snowden should "come back and make his case" — in fact, he essentially dared him to "man up and come back to the United States.

This "man up...." is not a direct quote, and not stated as such, it is the writer describing Kerry's words

from http://theweek.com/speedreads/index/262248/speedreads-john-kerry-responds-to-edward-snowden-man-up-and-return-home
-
This gets transformed into what seems like a direct quote like the OP seems to make. And others make here: (the claim Kerry said "man up starts at about 5:04)

[Leme]

95. additionall where descriptions used "man up"

Secretary of State John Kerry on Wednesday called National Security Agency leaker Edward Snowden a fugitive and challenged him to "man up and come back to the United States."

From written copy under video ( AP ?) ... NOT in the video.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/kerry-tells-snowden-man-home-23893685

[KoKo]

106. "WaPo" quotes "man up" in their title and article

John Kerry: Edward Snowden should ‘man up’ and return to the U.S.

Secretary of State John Kerry on Wednesday called for fugitive former National Security Agency contractor Edward Snowden to "man up" and return to the U.S. to face the legal consequences for his leaks about sweeping U.S. surveillance efforts.

"The bottom line is this is a man who has betrayed his country, who is sitting in Russia, an authoritarian country where he has taken refuge. He should man up and come back to the United States. If he has a complaint about what’s wrong with American surveillance, come back here and stand in our system of justice and make his case," Kerry said in an interview on "CBS This Morning."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-politics/wp/2014/05/28/john-kerry-edward-snowden-should-man-up-and-return-to-the-u-s/?tid=hpModule_ba0d4c2a-86a2-11e2-9d71-f0feafdd1394

[Leme]

113. I apologize

M-Lekktor found this, I am posting this

I spent over an hour looking and could not find Kerry saying "man up". The other links given here do not show him saying it. Now I get to go back and change my posts. : ( and : )
---
it is at 3:39-3:40 here


http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/john-kerry-on-afghanistan-syria-and-edward-snowden/

[Leme]

114. I was wrong !!! I apologize

M-Lekktor found this, I am posting this

I spent over an hour looking and could not find Kerry saying "man up". The other links given here do not show him saying it. Now I get to go back and change my posts. : ( and : )
---
it is at 3:39-3:40 here


http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/john-kerry-on-afghanistan-syria-and-edward-snowden/

[bahrbearian]

98. I wished tha Kerry would have man'd up and called for a recount in Ohio

[grasswire]

100. ^^^^^^^^ nt

[Donald Ian Rankin]

102. "Trust the system of justice" is a silly thing to say to someone guilty.

If Snowden comes to trial in the US, his only hope is that the justice system is *not* working, not that it is.

[DanM]

104. I know, right? It's like saying "you can keep your insurance if you like it". n/t

[Donald Ian Rankin]

109. The analogy is not obvious to me. N.T.

[Dr Hobbitstein]

121. And he was not wrong when he said that...

The insurance co's CHANGED policies after the grandfather period. That's not O's fault.

But I do love the Republican talking point.

[JVS]

112. Ah yes, "Man up!". The rallying cry of those who would have another act with a stupid disregard...

for their own well being.

[avebury]

116. I don't trust the legal system

as it seems to be rigged in favor of the wealthy and powerful to the detriment of everyone else. I have a hard time getting upset over Snowden given of the Wall Street/Banker types that came close to driving the US over a cliff with no consequences. The Bush crime gang was never held responsible for lying us into the Iraq war. Don Siegleman was wrongly convicted and imprisoned.

The Bush Government took advangtage of 911 to push the Patriot Act, that most legislators didn't even read before they voted it on. We have seen a steady erosion of our Constitutional Rights. If we have people who are going to commit criminal acts, both domestic and abroad, I have no problem with groups like Anonymous, Wikileaks, and so on throwing a spotlight on the cockroaches.

[FiveGoodMen]

120. Sorry I ever voted for the MotherFucker

[aikoaiko]

124. And the jury results are in...

AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service
Mail Message
On Wed May 28, 2014, 01:51 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

Sorry I ever voted for the MotherFucker
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5012952

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Wed May 28, 2014, 01:57 PM, and the Jury voted 3-4 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
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Explanation: *shrugs*
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Explanation: Rude.

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[pa28]

122. Oooo. Next he'll say he doesn't like the cut of that man's jib.

Kerry can be unintentionally comic at times.

[Thinkingabout]

127. Bet he would never say to trust Snowden.

[RKP5637]

128. Such an utterly stupid statement by Kerry! n/t

[bowens43]

129. the same system of justice that allows the execution of american citizens without trial?

fuck that

[treestar]

133. No, that is not the same thing

Facing charges in courts here is different from fighting in a war. Fail.

[randome]

143. Whoa!

[hr][font color="blue"][center]Where do uncaptured mouse clicks go?[/center][/font][hr]

[Puzzledtraveller]

142. They know people will largely buy this language

it's as laughable and pathetic now as it was then.