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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsKerry: If Snowden Is A Patriot, He Should Stay In The US And Make His Case
Secretary of State John Kerry said Wednesday that if former National Security Agency contractor Edward Snowden was a true 'patriot,' like famed Pentagon Papers leaker Daniel Ellsburg, he would return to the U.S. and have his day in court.
"If this man is a patriot, he should stay in the United States and make his case. Patriots don't go to Russia, they don't seek asylum in Cuba, they don't seek asylum in Venezuela. They fight their cause here," Kerry told MSNBC host Chuck Todd on "The Daily Rundown."
"There are many a patriot. You can go back to the Pentagon Papers, with Dan Ellsberg and others, who stood and went to the court system of America and made their case," he continued. "Edward Snowden is a coward, he is a traitor and he has betrayed his country. If he wants to come home tomorrow to face the music, he can do so."
In his own interview with NBC News airing Wednesday night, Snowden told anchor Brian Williams that he was "personally surprised" to find himself stuck in Russia without papers after fleeing the country and placed the blame for his current situation on the State Department.
- more -
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/john-kerry-edward-snowden-asylum
Snowden To Critics: 'Ask The State Department' Why I'm In Russia
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025011211
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dipsydoodle
(42,239 posts)A worn out 78rpm record comes to mind.
ProSense
(116,464 posts)"Yes we've heard that nonsense before."
Snowden has a choice: Russia or the U.S. justice system.
My remark was not directed at you.
hlthe2b
(102,304 posts)Even those who vehemently dislike Snowden must realize how disingenuous it is to suggest he "can just come home" with the implication there is no tremendous risk in doing so.
It surely had me rolling my eyes. 
kelliekat44
(7,759 posts)hlthe2b
(102,304 posts)Why the need to insult?
nilesobek
(1,423 posts)(Patriot Act sounds so Orwellian to me), weren't laws passed approving, "moderate pressure," or torture and indefinite detention of anyone without charges because somehow the charges themselves are a State secret?
I don't think its a good idea for Snowden to come back with these "laws," on the books. Is Kerry guaranteeing that Snowden will get fair treatment? How is such a guarantee worth anything under the current conditions?
TheNutcracker
(2,104 posts)
YvonneCa
(10,117 posts)...just as there were no guarantees for any patriot standing up for his/her country. He faces risk...but there are risks in Russia too.
Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)In one form or another. Just for the privilege of ending up like Manning or dead.
Logical
(22,457 posts)MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)This man is being TRUTHFUL about Snowden, unlike many I see around here.
Snowden is a coward. There is no other way to describe his actions.
Leme
(1,092 posts)just because Kerry did not go to jail, or be assassinated for his political activities in the 60s, does not mean Snowden would fair as well.
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)
Logical
(22,457 posts)randome
(34,845 posts)I know that's not what you meant but it's actually accurate. Snowden and his Libertarian buddies think showing us a warrant that we knew about since 2007 will somehow 'change the world'. Well, it didn't.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]
Leme
(1,092 posts)Do you have any particular actions in mind? What warrant are speaking of from 2007?
I do not know the names of these Libertarian buddies so please provide them.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)and stealing and releasing classified information. One is ... well ... lawful; the other a crime.
Leme
(1,092 posts)Because Kerry knows, or should know that the government might just disappear Snowden, and that at a trial, he might not be allowed to present ALL the evidence. The American justice system allows for that in a trial.
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The interests of the government and this administration might be better served if Snowden returned, they might not. The same could be said about what might be best for Americans.
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in this post I did not defend Snowden taking the documents. in this post. if a thread appeals to me, if that is the subject, I might do it there. Not in this thread though...so please do not ask me.
DetlefK
(16,423 posts)...if you suspect that you will get kidnapped and sent to some black site?
...if you think that incriminating evidence will disappear? ("Oops. somebody misplaced the torture-videos."
...if you think that Fox News will label you a liberal gay traitor 24/7? (Hot girlfriend? 100% gay.)
...if you think that a US-intelligence service would smuggle some child-porn or illegal downloads on your computer, just to be safe that you REALLY go to jail?
...if you think that you are gonna end up in jail for violating whistleblower-laws, no matter the revelations?
...if you think that you will be subjected to torture like Bradley Manning?
Who would have given a fuck about Edward Snowden without the spectacle of him fleeing abroad?
How would the media have covered this?
"Some people say that Edward Snowden overstepped his competences, some people say he's a traitor. General Clapper assured the reporters that the NSA operates fully within the legal restrictions set by congress. In other news a Tea Party republican said something controversial and a celebrity showed major cleavage. Stay with us after the break."
"...if you think that you are gonna end up in jail for violating whistleblower-laws, no matter the revelations?"
...was a "spy," as he claimed, and didn't know the consequences of his actions, then he's in lala land. Thomas Tamm:
But if Snowden is returned to the United States, Tamm said, “I think with the right representation, and with the right way of presenting what he did, I think he’ll be able to put his life back together.” Tamm says he’d even be willing to be part of the defense team.
http://dyn.politico.com/printstory.cfm?uuid=A9C45FF7-E7EB-44AD-9C5A-D2C7F0B7F276
There have been several prominent whistleblowers over the last several years who did not flee the country.
William Binney, Thomas Drake, and Tamm are whistleblowers who stayed and faced the consequences of their actions. They were not persecuted, they faced prosecution. They are not in jail. In fact, Tamm was the one who exposed Bush's illegal eavesdropping on Americans.
Snowden created a bigger problem for himself with the information he stole and revealed that was unrelated to NSA domestic activities. Fleeing to Russia did not help his cause. Apparently, Assange is trying to make it worse.
“We don’t share identical politics,” Snowden told Vanity Fair earlier this year. “I am not anti-secrecy. I’m pro-accountability. I’ve made many statements indicating both the importance of secrecy and spying, and my support for the working-level people at the N.S.A. and other agencies. It’s the senior officials you have to watch out for.”
http://www.vanityfair.com/online/daily/2014/05/julian-assange-glenn-greenwald-nsa-afghanistan
...by revealing information that Greenwald is saying will cause people harm. The decision to release information unrelated to the domestic surveillance issues has been coming back to bite him in the ass.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023084875
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023035095
"The U.S. government should be on its knees every day begging that nothing happen to Snowden, because if something does happen to him, all the information will be revealed and it could be its worst nightmare."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023242606
Logical
(22,457 posts)Exposed! And the scared people who trust the NSA get what they deserve.
Leme
(1,092 posts)Many or all the people who made the original Constitution might think that way also. And many since.
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Not that anything I say or do should be mentioned in the same arena.
The Straight Story
(48,121 posts)When you want justice brought against those who most abused the US then maybe I will listen.
Stand up and condemn the war criminals and bankers then maybe I will take what you say on this as worthwhile.
randome
(34,845 posts)Face it, with Republican obstructionism, there is no way in hell charges could be brought against Bush and Cheney. We wouldn't even have ACA if Obama had tried that.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]
The Straight Story
(48,121 posts)no charges will be filed and show he at least 'gets' it.
randome
(34,845 posts)Someday we'll get the 'take-no-prisoners' leader we need. But apparently not yet.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]
Leme
(1,092 posts)"We welcome you. There has been a lice outbreak. Please remove your clothes and enter these showers."
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That was perhaps part of the worst atrocities of the last century.
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Snowden would be silly to go to the shower.
COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)msanthrope
(37,549 posts)Are you seriously comparing this guy's plight to the Holocaust??????
Leme
(1,092 posts)each person dies personally as we all do.
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there was a "great" propaganda machine, a great propaganda machine going on in the USA...both hidden
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I just heard those words or quite similar were used at Sobibhor by an officer before the people died
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Kerry is an office holder, and his words ring hollow also.
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I am not sure Snowden would be killed.... maybe.
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I am pretty sure this great USA propaganda/ coverup of NSA activities , if left unchecked , has or will lead to thousands to millions of deaths.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)Leme
(1,092 posts)each person dies singly...even if in a group
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Snowden might not be killed if he returns...I would not bet that
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And quite similar to the Holocaust...except in scale.
this is about the NSA collecting worldwide data
who can say how much of this might be shared... or hacked
and how many people might die because of all this worldwide data, innocent people
Cha
(297,347 posts)Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)ProSense
(116,464 posts)He's free to stay in Russia.
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)
Leme
(1,092 posts)I may have to rethink this.
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aside : Granny said "Every day I wake up, I figure I'm a winner"
Logical
(22,457 posts)ProSense
(116,464 posts)He's saying dumb shit to cover his ass. Let the "conversation" continue. I "love" it.
LOL!
Logical
(22,457 posts)Supporting them doing anything to make you feel safe.
They LOVE people like you!
Trying that mind-reading thing again?
Logical
(22,457 posts)ProSense
(116,464 posts)"No mind reading needed, just your 1000s of posts against Snowden! "
I mean, you claim to "love" the "conversation," but your posts are defensive about "posts against Snowden."
Leave Snowden alone.
Leme
(1,092 posts)I don't want to live that safe a life.
Logical
(22,457 posts)Leme
(1,092 posts)I maybe should have had one of the sarcasm Icons
treestar
(82,383 posts)Vietnam is not equal to metadata.
Vattel
(9,289 posts)
jwirr
(39,215 posts)
If I've learned anything from all of this, it is that there is a critical mass of people in the U.S. ready and willing to support an oppressive security state under the right set of circumstances.
or they just don't hear/see things that others see/hear. Media is pervasive, but the messages are quite suspect.
Mojorabbit
(16,020 posts)msanthrope
(37,549 posts)respect that.
Running and being Putin's tool? Snowden wishes he had Manning's courage.
Dr. Strange
(25,921 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)Oh, and no attempted suicide - that doesn't sound like Comrade Eddie's thing.
Turbineguy
(37,354 posts)Jerome Corsi.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)Turbineguy
(37,354 posts)is like a school of fish.
seveneyes
(4,631 posts)Kerry has millions of dollars to back up anything he says and a get out of jail free deck of cards.
kelliekat44
(7,759 posts)Downwinder
(12,869 posts)
Jack Rabbit
(45,984 posts)I think Dr. Ellsberg has already weighed in on the matter, and stated that he would flee the country now rather than face the justice system. The law nowadays provides for indefinite detention and secret courts. Look at the incarceration of Bradley/Chelsea Manning. Would you come home to face that? This isn't the America in which I grew up.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)I almost put him in hero status.
YvonneCa
(10,117 posts)elias49
(4,259 posts)NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)Would you like to elaborate or did you simply stop by to drop a turd?
elias49
(4,259 posts)John Kerry doesn't deserve hero worship. He's old-fashioned and in the way. I don't know why he expects the world to simply follow his lead. Can't get Middle East peace in two months? He harumphs. Pity Susan Rice was railroaded from the position...we don't need 1960s diplomacy in the 21st century.
Who are you replying to? Where did you see me do any type of hero worship? Amazing what you got out of two sentences. I really wish my brain worked like that. Everything I would come across would be exciting.
elias49
(4,259 posts)'I almost put him in hero status'.
And there are exercises you can do for the brain...just saying.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)Interesting angle you take.
"I almost put him in hero status"
Serious hero worship there. Please tell me of the exercise that would allow my mind to call that hero worship as you do. I might be interested. If I could draw hero worship out of that then my mind would have no limits.
This is proof that some will do anything to attack a progressive. Even completely leave reality.
karynnj
(59,504 posts)the strongest, best statesman of my generation. He was in the 1970s and then from 1985 on as an excellent Senator.
These are pretty insignificant interviews. Nothing said on Snowden here is the least surprising.
treestar
(82,383 posts)
merrily
(45,251 posts)More to the point, as always, focusing on Snowden or Greenwald, deflects attention from where the focus should be, namely, on what the USG tried to do in secret to the people who vote and pay for the USG.
I did not vote for Snowden or Greenwald (or hire either of them) and--thanks to Snowden's deciding to leave the employ of the USG and its agents-- my taxes no longer pay for Snowden's services. However, there are people in DC still living--very nicely, I might add--on my tax dollars and still asking me for my vote.
And that is, and should be, the real issue, the one that no one in the USG wants us to focus on. So, they make it about whether Snowden's is a "real" patriot or not and whether Greenwald is a "real" journalist or not. And then, they pretty much make up stuff about what a "real" patriot does and, first amendment be damned, what a "real" journalist entitled to first amendment protection is.
I don't care what you think of Greenwald or Snowden, if you think the Government deciding who is and who is not entitled to first amendment protection is really what the Founders had in mind when they provided for freedom of the press, you are beyond hope.
I don't care about Greenwald's character or motives or Snowden's character or motives. I do care what my government does to me on my dime, while trying to keep it secret from me.
Leme
(1,092 posts)The above is the overriding thing of importance. The rest important some...but ancillary.
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on a side note:
Occasionally I care what people say because there are repercussions/actions...... but often words are just words about action...and there is no later action.
Taitertots
(7,745 posts)He exposed the NSA as the largest criminal organization since the KGB.
Vattel
(9,289 posts)Fuck his sexist "man-up" crap and his "true patriot" bullshit. Kerry didn't even have the moral courage to unequivocally oppose the Iraq War during his 2004 campaign for the presidency. And he wants Snowden to come home to face decades in a supermax prison. What a tool.
ProSense
(116,464 posts)So you admit Snowden is guilty and would be prosecuted?
Oh well!
merrily
(45,251 posts)For law school, he went to Boston College, where lawyer/politico wannabes in Boston, especially Catholics, tended to go if they couldn't get into either Harvard or Boston University or a comparable law school outside the state, like Michigan or Stanford. That is a bit of a puzzle, especially since it came out during the 2004 Presidential that Kerry's GPA was lower than Dimson's. Still, Yale is Yale and Boston College was and is a very respectable law school.
loyalsister
(13,390 posts)When someone deliberately breaks laws or violate ethics that have potential to do serious damage and carry heavy penalties, they should be so committed and confident in their actions that they are willing to make a sacrifice.
I think that spirit is the best reason to have a volunteer military. With some exceptions, those who enlist are willing to risk physical injury or even death. If someone is willing to abandon their personal ethics in order to participate in or do something they believe is ultimately honorable, they should take that risk willingly. Especially when those actions effect other people.
I don't like the idea of questioning patriotism, but a soldier who suddenly objects to battle and puts others at risk rather than taking an action in which he\she is the only person who pays the consequences. What ever legal penalties a person may pay for jeopardizing the safety of people they signed up to help protect are justified. If they have no doubt that what they did was right, they should be able to accept the ramifications.
Snowden's actions create a risk that could do serious damage to other people. He should be willing to pay the price for what he believes is the greater good.
ProSense
(116,464 posts)rug
(82,333 posts)It worked even better for Bush.
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)If he actually trusts the 'justice' system. I think most of the country knows that's laughable. Snowden isn't one of the plutocrats, and harmed their interests. He'd have to be a fool to return and allow them retribution.
