Reading Between Kerry's Lines: Snowden is no longer safe, even in Russia

[berni_mccoy]

Snowden made a big mistake outing himself as a former spy and not just an analyst. From http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/kerry-tells-snowden-man-home-23893685

In his interview with NBC anchor Brian Williams, a portion of which was broadcast Tuesday, Snowden said he was "trained as a spy" and argued that he had a much larger role in U.S. intelligence than the government has acknowledged.

"I was trained as a spy in sort of the traditional sense of the word, in that I lived and worked undercover overseas," he said.

If this is true, it explains why this leak was so large and damaging. He was not just an analyst and a simple analyst could not obtain the information that Snowden did, then Snowden's own words contradict his earlier claims that any analyst could do it.

When I first heard Kerry's statements this morning, I thought they were strange. Now, combined with this revelation they make sense. Here is Kerry quoted in the same article:

"Well, for a supposedly smart guy, that's a pretty dumb answer, after all."

That is Kerry saying Snowden crossed the line by outing himself.

And then this:

"man up and come back to the United States."

It sounds like absurd bravado, but what it really means is Snowden is no longer safe in Russia.

And finally:

"A patriot would not run away. ... He can come home but he's a fugitive from justice."

That means, this is Snowden's last chance. Come home or else...

If Snowden wasn't scared before, he ought to be now.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

1. LOL. Kerry the Manly Man who voted obediently for Bush's war.

"Patriotically" of course.

[berni_mccoy]

2. That's why I thought is statements were strange.

It's not like Kerry to use bravado to goad someone.

It's out of character for him.

And Kerry has served his country faithfully and put himself in harms way. I'd say that's manly enough.

[karynnj]

29. lol yourself

Kerry voted to give Bush the leverage to get the inspectors in and spoke against rushing to war BEFORE the war started in 2003. He also is a genuinely patriotic man who has spent a life in service to the country.

I thought it was only the rw that question the masculinity of all Democrats - so consider your company.

As to Snowden, the more he is seen, the more it is clear that he was used by Greenwald. Because he was indiscriminate in what he leaked and because he fled to countries that are hostile to the US - China and then Russia - hoping to go on to Cuba or Ecuador it becomes hard to defend him.

He has reopened the conversation on FISA, but that conversation seems less serious than the conversation in 2007/2008 when there were very serious discussions on legality in the Senate. It is hard to believe that we would have gotten less had Snowden met with Senator Leahy, the chair of the Judiciary committee - in private and disclosed what he knew.

[sabrina 1]

42. Snowden did NOT FLEE to China and/or Russia. Snowden was forced into Russia by the US Govt.

Snowden was on his way to South America where he had been offered political asylum, a place to remain safe from the US Govt's now infamous brutal treatment of Whistle Blowers.

He chose a route that would not cross any NATO countries, a very wise decision as we know (see what happened even to the leader of a Latin American Sovereign State eg).

One of his fly over stops was Hong Kong. The US Govt asked Hong Kong to 'hand him over'. Hong Kong refused to do so and sent him on his way. His next stopover was Moscow where he expected to board his next plane on his way to South America.

However, the US Govt rescinded his passport making it impossible for him to board his next plane and leaving him stranded in Moscow.

If you want to discredit someone it's always best to so with facts.

Iow, Snowden had no intention of 'fleeing to Russia or China'. He was on his way to Ecuador but was prevented from leaving Moscow by the US Govt. Now why would the US want Snowden in Russia, that is a better question to ask.

[karynnj]

44. You ignore that he could have flown from the US to Latin America

Instead, he went to China -- and while he was there leaked secret information. Why did he go to China? Were there no flights from China to Latin America, an a region that does substantial business with China?

If is goal was to ultimately go to Latin America, going to Hong Kong seems rather strange. What did he expect.

I KNOW his itinerary and I know he blames the US for rescinding his passport. As various US officials have said, he could have then flown back to the US. Due to his actions, they had no intention of letting him travel wherever he wanted on a US passport.

[sabrina 1]

45. I addressed his reasons for choosing the route he did, as he did long ago. He leaked no

'secrets' to China unless you are supporting the ridiculous claim attempted by Republican Rep. Rodgers, who, when asked for proof of his allegations, disappeared from the media entirely. Even our own, not very credible Corporate Media found those allegations to be so 'serious' that for once, they actually asked for proof, and GOT NONE.

Please stop with the 'he could have flown back to the US'. That is a RIDICULOUS assertion which no one who has any awareness of what the US does to Whistle Blowers would even suggest.

After what happened to Chelsea Manning, Thomas Drake, Binney and a host of others who tried to warn the American people of what their government is up to, no future Whistle Blowers will remain in this country.

Do you think those Chinese and other dissidents fleeing their own governments, coming here for political asylum should 'fly back to their respective countries'? Where they would be treated as our Whistle Blowers are treated here, shamefully?

No one is listening to these silly statements coming for those who, for some unknown reason, especially on the Left, have changed their minds about their Govt's mass spying on its own citizens.

Snowden did exactly what he needed to do. He may be the first to realize that no Whistle Blower is safe in this country anymore, but he won't be the last.

[karynnj]

59. He was in Hong Cong when the leak was done -- that speaks to TIMING

does not say he leaked to China. The point was - he took care to be out of the country. Why not be in the country you want asylum from?

So, either his initial idea was that China would be that place -- odd as it sounds - or his planning was very poor. Why was he in China?

[sabrina 1]

61. Of COURSE he was out of the country. He did not intend to be silenced, as Manning was, tortured, as

Manning was, persecuted as Blake and Binney were. Do you understand that when a person who reveals wrong doing by their governments decides to seek political asylum they NEED to be out of the country where the government is KNOWN to persecute such people BEFORE it is too late?

[karynnj]

62. My point was that he might want to go to where he wanted to stay

Why China? If he wanted Latin America, there are plenty of flights, and he could have gone there when Greenwald published the documents.

[sabrina 1]

63. Sigh ... he could not fly through any NATO country where he would have been detained and handed over

to the US. He chose to make certain that his flight took him over countries that were less likely to do so. Clearly he was correct, as we saw when the US Govt demanded that Hong Kong hand him over. They refused. That proves that his decision was the correct one, well thought out and successful.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

46. Seems to me Kerry was questioning the masculinity of Snowden with his "man up" crack.

Don't you?

As for his "patriotism" and "service" to his country...the same could be said of any number of RW Republicans. So, perhaps, you should consider your company.

Senator Leahy operates under very strict rules regarding disclosure and I find it hard to believe that he, or any other senator, would have stuck their necks out to protect Snowden and his revelations.

[jakeXT]

3. Kerry Tells Snowden to 'Man Up' and Come Home

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/kerry-tells-snowden-man-home-23893685

[Wash. state Desk Jet]

5. Interesting prospective .

Go back in time just a bit where Snowden did his thing on Putin's cold style chat ,the thing where Snowden thought he carefully crafted a question to Putin. Now reference the comeback Putin made when he said to Snowden, "we are both agents." Putin of course being x KGB.

Now at that time when Putin said that, you really had to look at it for what Putin was getting at.

However now it seem more-so evident.

We will never see a clear picture of what all went down,the question is and has been, what will Russia do with Snowden.

He is living the life of an ornament in Russia and it is not a beautiful thing he is living.

Is he better off in Russia than he otherwise would have been ?
That has to be Snowden's own question .

[berni_mccoy]

6. Excellent tie-in with the Putin interview!

I missed that subtle indication...

[Wash. state Desk Jet]

7. It as it was said is a pointed response

,figuring out what the hell it all means is no easy task ! But I do know the game. A long time ago back in the seventies an old tin can 40's class reserve destroyer was in return from a tour over in Vietnam. It was on it's way home for decommissioning . Soviet migs as rule back in those days always did fly overs ,over war ships to spy, look at what you got, look for additional stuff ,communication type stuff or a ship having been refitted for a specific mission.

But in the case of the "Ole", old destroyer this didn't happen. There were no Russian mig fighter jets to be seen or heard in the air. This pissed off the ships captain. How dare those ruskies not fly over this fine old distinguished decorated war ship.

So he order the bosn'n mates to go down to the galley and bring up a card board box, a big one, and that they did.

Than he ordered the box be placed in front of the forward gun mount and that they did. A minute passed maybe and the captain called down using his bull horn ,and he said, that object in front of the gun mount- it is unauthorized, the bosn'n mate said you ordered it put there. That captain said regulations say it must be painted haze gray- fix that.

And that they did ,it was painted gray. Than the captain called down another order, he ordered the bosn's to bring up a broom and that they did. He than told a bos'n mate to carve out a hole center upright in the box to create a perfect fit for the broom stick,and that they did. When that was done the captain ordered a bos'n mate to get in the box with that broom and push the broom stick through the hole,and that he did. Than the captian ordered the bosn'mate out of the box but told him to leave the broom as it is. And so that was done.And than the captain ordered the broom stick sticking out of the box painted haze gray. And so it was done.

The ships captain than ordered the box be secured ,and so that was done.

The next morning bright and early two Russian migs flew over the ship taking pictures.

And so you see, the ships captain knew the game.!

[Leme]

8. Just to keep some truth here

Last edited Wed May 28, 2014, 01:58 PM - Edit history (1)

edit: I spent an hour or so looking through various links given at a different thread claiming John Kerry said "man up". Thos links did not have those words. I also did search engine a while.

a half hour or so someone did find it and posted it. I have been correcting my error ever since.

this is what I have mostly been pasting, my apologies also

M-Lekktor found this, I am posting this

I spent over an hour looking and could not find Kerry saying "man up". The other links given here do not show him saying it. Now I get to go back and change my posts. : ( and : )
---
it is at 3:39-3:40 here


http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/john-kerry-on-afghanistan-syria-and-edward-snowden/



original post:

Kerry never said the words "man up". Never. that is a distortion of what someone described his words as being... and then it got transformed into Kerry as having said them. Kerry did not say those words.

[DesMoinesDem]

9. Yes, lets keep some truth. He absolutely did say those words.

[Leme]

28. my apologies, I went to links other than CBS and found no "man up"

I am posting this in threads where I erred

M-Lekktor found this, I am posting this

I spent over an hour looking and could not find Kerry saying "man up". The other links given here do not show him saying it. Now I get to go back and change my posts. : ( and : )
---
it is at 3:39-3:40 here


http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/john-kerry-on-afghanistan-syria-and-edward-snowden/

[ProSense]

11. Yes,

he did: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025011247#post84

[Leme]

30. my apologies

M-Lekktor found this, I am posting this

I spent over an hour looking and could not find Kerry saying "man up". The other links given here do not show him saying it. Now I get to go back and change my posts. : ( and : )
---
it is at 3:39-3:40 here


http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/john-kerry-on-afghanistan-syria-and-edward-snowden/

[m-lekktor]

12. here is the video where he said it on CBS

go to around 3:37 near the end

http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/john-kerry-on-afghanistan-syria-and-edward-snowden/

[Leme]

31. thanks again

heheh..you get thanked twice : )

[Aerows]

15. Yes he did

Video where you can VIEW and hear him saying it right above mine.

[Leme]

32. my apologies

I was in error, I am posting this.

M-Lekktor found this, I am posting this

I spent over an hour looking and could not find Kerry saying "man up". The other links given here do not show him saying it. Now I get to go back and change my posts. : ( and : )
---
it is at 3:39-3:40 here


http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/john-kerry-on-afghanistan-syria-and-edward-snowden/

[morningfog]

10. What are you suggesting by "no longer safe" in Russia?

[Aerows]

13. Translation

"Oh shit, we are screwed when Greenwald releases the names of the Americans we are spying on. Threaten him with everything we've got in hopes of scaring everyone out of doing that!"

[karynnj]

34. Except, this says nothing about Greenwald and doesn't really affect him

Greenwald took no risk - Snowden did. Greenwald violated no law (that I know of), Snowden did. Even if this did threaten Snowden - and it doesn't, it does not threaten Greenwald.

Where is the threat? (You would have a case if, instead of Snowden claiming he was a spy -- which he did long ago as well, Obama or Kerry outing him COULD be a threat - but that is not what happened.

[Aerows]

37. I'll wait until the list of names comes out

And then we can all have this discussion again. I have no doubt there will be multiple discussions about it everywhere.

[grasswire]

43. ^^^^

And today the apologists for the NSA are stooping to insinuating that Snowden has "psychiatric" troubles or perhaps "alcoholism".

I guess the boxes in the garage didn't do the trick. Now they take their clues from Salem MA in the 1600s.

[randome]

14. I think Putin knows him for what he is: a fool who got in over his head.

I don't think anyone believes his 'spy' story. And as for what he stole, he somehow gained access to some SharePoint sites and did so by using his coworkers' passwords. That doesn't take a lot of smarts.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]TECT in the name of the Representative approves of this post.[/center][/font][hr]

[Aerows]

16. I smell desperation

The idea that Greenwald is going to name names of the Americans that have been spied upon is scaring the hell out of some folks in the Intelligence Community. It is high time that our government got a taste of being frightened by its citizens rather than the other way around.

[randome]

17. I don't think anyone is frightened.

And I bet Greenwald's 'fireworks display' turns out to be as earth-shattering as his initial misconceptions about PRISM.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Precision and concision. That's the game.[/center][/font][hr]

[hughee99]

18. If they're spying on the 1%, it's going to make a lot of politicians nervous. n/t

[Aerows]

26. That's why all of this bluster is coming out

They are scared out of their minds that Greenwald is going to name names. They should be, for a change.

[ProSense]

20. Maybe

"I smell desperation

The idea that Greenwald is going to name names of the Americans that have been spied upon is scaring the hell out of some folks in the Intelligence Community. It is high time that our government got a taste of being frightened by its citizens rather than the other way around."

...the "desperation" you smell is Snowden's. I mean, he and his allies have likely erased all hope for a plea.

You think Greenwald is trying to become the Government's "worst nightmare" in the hopes that it will get "on its knees" and beg?

"Snowden has enough information to cause harm to the U.S. government in a single minute than any other person has ever had," Greenwald said in an interview in Rio de Janeiro with the Argentinean daily La Nacion.

"The U.S. government should be on its knees every day begging that nothing happen to Snowden, because if something does happen to him, all the information will be revealed and it could be its worst nightmare."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023242606

Fat chance. Snowden likely has nothing to trade.

[randome]

33. I'd forgotten about that gem from the past.

A year later and the Libertarians are still waiting for the government to fall.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]All things in moderation, including moderation.[/center][/font][hr]

[Tarheel_Dem]

35. Thanks for that reminder.

[former9thward]

19. I guess that says alot about the NSA if someone who "doesn't take a lot of smarts"

can gain so much information. It says the NSA is not very smart. It also says the State Department is not very smart since it was their incompetence which allowed Snowden to travel from China to Russia.

Or are you back to the old line that Snowden did not steal anything important despite the U.S. government saying the exact opposite?

Besides he is a loner! with a pole dancing girlfriend! a libertarian! with boxes in his garage!

[randome]

23. It DOES say a lot about NSA's lack of internal security.

But apparently the personal data is better safe-guarded than their internal SharePoint documents, otherwise Snowden could have accessed that.

And he didn't steal anything particularly important, IMO. Sure, he may have ruined a few international spying operations but so what? He still stole classified documents and gave them away to foreign corporations. That's a big no-no unless you are doing so to prove aliens live and cavort at Area 51 or something similar.

Every country on the planet has laws against stealing national security documents.

The State Departing 'allowing' Snowden to travel from China to Russia? Not sure how they could have stopped that other than to invade China.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Precision and concision. That's the game.[/center][/font][hr]

[former9thward]

25. The State Department gave the wrong passport information to China to hold him.

That allowed Snowden to travel on before the correct information was given.

The U.S. seems to disagree with you about what he stole but maybe you know better...

Clapper said the documents exposed by Snowden have bolstered adversaries, caused allies to curtail cooperation with the United States, enabled terrorist groups to alter the ways they communicate, and put lives of U.S. intelligence operatives at risk.

“Snowden claims that he has won and that his mission is accomplished,” Clapper said. “If that is so, I call on him and his accomplices to facilitate the return of the remaining stolen documents that have not yet been exposed to prevent even more damage to U.S. security.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/us-intelligence-director-calls-on-snowden-to-return-nsa-documents/2014/01/29/7bd9c9ee-88f7-11e3-833c-33098f9e5267_story.html

[Aerows]

27. My favorite is

"he didn't steal anything particularly important" but John Kerry is threatening him, the NSA is in an uproar, and there is pretty clear evidence of panic in the intelligence community.

But hey, it wasn't anything particularly important. I mean, the names of the Americans the NSA was spying on isn't cause for concern - not ONE bit.

[karynnj]

36. What exactly is Kerry threatening to do to Snowden?

Nothing I can see. Not to mention, Kerry was asked to comment. The reason Snowden is back in the news is his new interview.

If the segments shown are typical, I don't think this will help him. It also will be the first long exposure people have of him -- and I am betting that he will not be seen as a hero, a patriot or as likable person.

He seems defensive and very annoyed that people like Obama have not given him his due -- labeling him just a hacker. I doubt his arguing that he was very important will help him -- as I have never seen anyone win by declaring themselves to have been underrated.

[Aerows]

38. Ask the OP

I didn't make that argument, I just threw in my .02 in keeping with the OP's argument. I don't agree with the OP, but hey, there was a theory, and I weighed in on it.

[karynnj]

39. I read the reading between the lines to be Kerry's reaction to someone

-- IN RUSSIA -- outing himself to have been an American spy.

[Aerows]

40. Fair enough n/t

[UTUSN]

21. Different reading: He broke his oath; stole; ran; chose despotic destinations.

Once his story broke, his supposed point had been made, no need for more and more and on and on.

[SomethingFishy]

22. Man up? LMAO..

Well maybe he's been talking to those Republicans about the "war on masculinity"..

"Man up", usually I hear those words when someone is trying to force me to do something either plain wrong or monumentally stupid and they are running out of ways to convince me.

[Lee-Lee]

24. The "Man Up" comment disappoints on many levels

Including that a high level member of this administration, that I supported for President, resorted to such a mysoginist tone.

[Sheepshank]

41. So what happens to a self acclaimed spy with a larger Intelligance role..

...that gives up states secrets to foreign interests?

Snowden is digging his own hole faster than anyone elose I've ever seen. If you are right, he's so screwn in Russia and he's just not done himself any favors here either.

[grasswire]

47. Kerry and Obama apparently disagree

Obama on Snowden: "a hacker"

Kerry opinion of Snowden is much, much higher.

[ProSense]

48. Snowden

on Snowden: 'I Was Trained as a Spy'

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025008876

[Blue_Tires]

49. Why would Russia let any harm come to such a valuable property?

But that assumes that he really is a spy, which he isn't...If he's spy, then the Russians are keeping him for the rest of his life and he would have already known that before ever boarding a jet to Moscow...

By every unofficial account I've read so far, the "spy" talk is just resume-padding bullshit to sex up the interview...

[Vattel]

50. Yeah, man up Snowden and face decades in a supermax prison! Lol.

Kerry needs to get a clue.

[Puglover]

60. I am neither a Snowden hater or fan.

Last edited Wed May 28, 2014, 08:33 PM - Edit history (1)

However Kerry bloviating in that self righteous stentorian voice that he likes to employ was pretty cringe worthy.

[ProSense]

51. Greenwald is evidently upset

with Kerry:

Kerry's macho bravado ("man up&quot is not just obnoxious but deceitful, since he'd be barred from arguing justification http://mashable.com/2014/05/28/john-kerry-edward-snowden/

https://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/471705426372100096

Does Greenwald actually believe Kerry should be concerned that a self-confessed spy shot himself in the foot?

Greenwald needs to focus on his new threat to release names. Maybe it'll be the Government's "worst nightmare" he predicted last year.

"Snowden has enough information to cause harm to the U.S. government in a single minute than any other person has ever had," Greenwald said in an interview in Rio de Janeiro with the Argentinean daily La Nacion.

"The U.S. government should be on its knees every day begging that nothing happen to Snowden, because if something does happen to him, all the information will be revealed and it could be its worst nightmare."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023242606

[treestar]

52. Just looking for attention again

So now he was one of the ones who was doing the evil "spying on Americans." Supposedly.

[Thinkingabout]

53. Iunderstand they have some effective poisons available in Russia and dont mind using them.

Snowden is watched, he made the choice to go there, now he will answer to the wishes there.

[Aerows]

54. Are you advocating the extra-judicial assassination of an American citizen?

It sounds like you are implying that.

[Thinkingabout]

55. Where did I say the US was involved in his death, the Russians knows and uses poisons effectively.

Did Snowden know this when he went there, don't know, his advisors has not controlled his movements very well.

[Aerows]

56. He hasn't been controlled very well at all

by anybody.

[Thinkingabout]

58. Okay, his decisions, his future.

[Hekate]

57. He never was. nt

[Number23]

64. "National security adviser Susan Rice said in a CNN interview that Snowden never worked undercover."

And yet another Snowden statement on his skills, abilities and/or experience goes down in flames..

[Cha]

65. Delusions of granduer go unquestioned by GG/ES fan club.

"National security adviser Susan Rice said in a CNN interview that Snowden never worked undercover."