Anyone want to guess the proportion of potentially qualified non-voters to Nader voters in 2000?

[Gravitycollapse]

Definitions can differ. But based on my estimate using voting-age citizens it was about...

30-to-1

76 million voting-age citizens did not vote in the election.

[onehandle]

1. Jackasses. nt

[pnwmom]

2. Who cares? 95,000 Florida Nader voters pushed that state to the Bush column,

in an election where the difference between Bush and Gore was only 500 votes.

And the Nader voters, unlike the non-voters, were most likely progressives. What a waste of a progressive vote.

[Gravitycollapse]

4. Except a majority of non-voters are Democrats...

http://www.pewresearch.org/2010/10/29/the-party-of-nonvoters/

[morningfog]

5. Florida was not in the Bush column. The recount proved that.

Florida tried to stop the recount. The Supreme Court injected itself, wrongly, into the political question. Gore won Florida. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

[pnwmom]

7. It did for the purposes of the election which, you are right, was decided by the SCOTUS.

But if Nader hadn't been on the ballot, it wouldn't have ended up in the hands of SCOTUS.

Don't let anyone ever tell you otherwise.

[morningfog]

9. You legitimize Bush when you blame Nader.

Why would you want to do that?

THe blame is squarely and solely on Katherine Harris and the 5 Supreme Court Justices.

To blame Nader is to engage in Bush apologia.

[pnwmom]

12. No, I don't. Nader put his thumb on the scale and put the election in the hands

of SCOTUS.

After announcing he would be happy if that's what occurred, because they were just Tweedledee and Tweedledum to him.

There was nothing legitimate about the Bush coronation.

[morningfog]

14. Nader ran a legal campaign. He earned votes. Gore won Florida, the Popular vote and the Electoral

Vote. Link to Nader saying he would be happy if the election were illegally stolen?

The blame is solely and squarely on Katherine Harris and the Supreme Court. When you say Nader is at fault, you give Bush, Harris and the 5 justices cover. You suggest they are absolved because Nader ran a legal campaign.

Don't do it! Keep you eye on the ball. The election was stolen and that has nothing to do with Nader. THere is no such thing as "close enough to steal." There is a legitimate election and there is a stolen election. Period.

[pnwmom]

16. He said he was fine with the election going to Bush. He thought that the election going to Bush

would hurry along the coming progressive revolution. We saw how well that all worked out.

I never suggested that SCOTUS is absolved. I said they would not have had the opportunity if Nader hadn't insisted on campaigning hard in Florida -- against the advice of many progressive allies. Nader put the ball in their court and they kicked it across the field.

[morningfog]

18. Did Bush legitimately win Florida and the Presidential election?

If the answer is yes, then "Fuck Nader."

If the answer is no, then Harris and the Supreme Court stole it.

[pnwmom]

20. No. But Nader gave him the opportunity to steal it through SCOTUS.

If Nader hadn't been on the ballot, taking 95000 votes, it wouldn't even have been close.

[morningfog]

21. Then Nader was irrelevant. If it was stolen, as I agree with you that it was, Nader is irrelevant.

There is no such thing as "opportunity to steal." There is stolen and there is legitimate.

Pat Buchanan and the poorly designed Palm Beach ballots were as relevant as Nader for "the opportunity to steal it."

Bad weather was as relevant. The only point that matters. The only one, is that the election was stolen. Suggesting any other issue matters legitimizes Bush.

Had Bush actually won the popular vote, you would at least have an argument. Not necessarily a strong one, but an argument that Nader was a cause. Without that piece, the argument is non-existent. You know who loves loves loves when people blame Nader? Bush, Cheney, Rove, Harris, et al. Blaming Nader does their bidding.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

28. He didn't "take" those votes.

What an asinine and frankly idiotic thing to say. You have no idea where those votes would have went if he had not run, or if those voters would have even showed up to vote at all, you ASSume that they would have went to Gore.


It's really telling seeing all the conservative and third way leaning Dems going out of their way to blame Nader and stick up for Bush Co and the Supreme Court. Fact is they will always blame the left before they blame Bush Co and the Republicans because they know that their politics aren't all that different.

[pnwmom]

30. Many progressive leaders knew he would draw votes away from Gore and urged him not to do so.

There was an organized campaign asking his supporters to swap votes with people in non-swing states. But Nader refused because he was happy to help Bush win. He even accepted money from Republicans for his campaign.

If only 10% of Nader's voters had gone to Gore, he would have been an insurmountable lead. Heck, Gore would have won with 1% of Nader's votes. You can't seriously be arguing that 1% of Nader's voters wouldn't have voted for Gore if Nader hadn't been on the ballot. Or that more of them would have voted for Bush than for Gore.

So, yes, he did "take" those votes. He got them through deceit -- through falsely arguing that there was no difference between Gore and Bush. And his fan club fell for it.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

31. So your standard is an "insurmountable lead"

How about just a "lead"?


Gore did win and you're pulling numbers out of your ass. Anything to protect Bush Co though, I get it.

[pnwmom]

32. Gore did win but Nader was the one progressive who got the election tossed to SCOTUS.

Harris couldn't have done it without him.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

33. She shouldn't have been able to do it WITH HIM.

That's the point your missing. A corrupt electoral system and Florida Republican party is responsible for this. Why are you so adamant on protecting them?

[pnwmom]

34. Why are you so adamant about not admitting Nader's part? I freely admit the corruption of Rethugs.

But Nader is supposedly a progressive. We should be able to expect him to support progressive goals -- not deliberately swing an election to Bush.

Many of his supporters strongly urged him to put his big campaign efforts into the non-swing states -- it wouldn't have hurt his campaign a bit. Instead, he chose to campaign the hardest in the states where the margin between Bush and Gore was the smallest -- so his small percent of the vote could do the most damage possible.

[HooptieWagon]

44. Many more Fl Dems voted for Bush than Nader.

Looks like the DINOs enabled Fl to be stolen.

[Art_from_Ark]

23. Well, if bu$h's campaign co-chair hadn't been counting the votes

and randomly assigning deadlines for vote-counting, then it probably wouldn't have ended up in the hands of the SCOTUS.

[pnwmom]

24. 95000 Nader votes in an election decided by 500 and a corrupt SCOTUS. You do the math. n/t

[Art_from_Ark]

25. It wasn't "decided" by 500 votes

You are making the mistaken assumption that *all* the votes were counted, which was definitely NOT the case. Katherine Harris just stopped counting the votes when it appeared her boy was going to lose. The case was then taken to the Florida State Supreme Court, which ruled that ALL the votes had to be counted. Then Dick Cheney's hunting buddy on the US Supreme Court decided to stick his nose into the affair to make sure that all the votes would NOT be counted.

[pnwmom]

26. In reality, it was. At the time it got handed over to SCOTUS, that was the difference.

But it makes no difference whether Bush was ahead or whether Gore was ahead, by 500 votes or by 1000. Nader took 95,000 and put the decision in the hands of SCOTUS. Without Nader, the election would never have been close enough for Harris and SCOTUS to do what they did.

[Art_from_Ark]

27. You are assuming that the Nader votes would mostly have been Gore votes

and that they would have been counted as Gore votes by the Republican organization that was counting the votes.
Katherine Harris just stopped counting, after assigning random deadlines for submissions. And later recounts showed that Gore had actually won Florida:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2001/jan/29/uselections2000.usa

[MohRokTah]

3. When you have fucking morons telling people "there's not a dime's worth of difference"

People stay home.

Another fault of Nader.

[Gravitycollapse]

6. You realize non-voters existed before and after the 2000 election, right?

[MohRokTah]

8. You realize people who are convinced there's not a dime's worth of difference stay home, right?

[Gravitycollapse]

10. Are you really telling me Nader, more than anything else, convinced 76 million not to vote?

Keep in mind that coming to such a conclusion necessitates you blame Nader for other election non-turnouts even when he wasn't running.

[MohRokTah]

11. I am telling you Nader is personally responsible for all the ill that befell this country

since the2000 election.

He and his supporters bear more responsibility than anybody else.

Fuck em all. They are wingnuttier than the wingnuttiest wingnuts in existence.

Fuck em all.

[Gravitycollapse]

13. Hurricane Katrina, 9/11, spree killers, colony collapse disorder...Goddamn you, Nader.

I'm trying to picture millions of death certificates and police reports with the cause as "Ralph Nader."

Does your argument mean I can go murder someone right now and claim "Ralph Nader" as a defense? Shouldn't he just be arrested and convicted by default for millions of individual crimes committed over the past decade and a half?

[MohRokTah]

15. The complete nonsense of your post indicates

you belong on m ignore list.

[Gravitycollapse]

17. You literally just argued that Nader is responsible for ALL of the ills of this country post-2000.

Taken at face value that means Ralph Nader is responsible for an almost innumerable number of injurious accidents and actions. We are talking about the sum total of all of the suffering of all Americans for the past 14 years.

Ralph Nader is basically some sort of transcendent plague. Within the context of your ideological stance, Ralph Nader has been promoted to God in the monotheistic sense.

[noiretextatique]

45. pot, meet kettle

your post indicates that you are seriously misinformed.

[octoberlib]

19. This made me laugh.

[winter is coming]

22. You left out reality television. And Hot Pockets.

Okay, Hot Pockets existed before 2000, but Nader's powerful enough to have time-travel and we gotta blame Hot Pockets on somebody.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

29. Keep blaming Nader.

Anything to protect Bush Co. After all, Hillary supported Bush's war, he can't be all that bad.

[frylock]

37. wowee

[MohRokTah]

38. Says the guy who thinks Samuel Alito and John Roberts represent "not a dime's worth of difference"

[frylock]

40. RALPH NADER HAS CAUSED *ALL* THE WORLDS ILLS HERP DERP!!12

to reiterate:

[MohRokTah]

43. No Nader, No Bush. Not a dime's worth of difference my ass.

[frylock]

35. when you have fucking morons selecting Joe Lieberman as a running mate..

it only lends credence to the "there's not a dime's worth of difference" meme.

[MohRokTah]

36. Ah, so you believe Samuel Alito and John Roberts are "not a dime's worth of difference"

[frylock]

39. Samuel Alito: 72 yeas 25 nays. John Roberts: 78 yeas 22 nays..

Thanks, Nader.

[MohRokTah]

41. Samuel Alito : Nominated by George W. Bush

No Bush. No Alito

You're damned straight, Thanks Nader.

[frylock]

42. you're inability to assign any culpability to any democrat is sad and pathetic..

democrats that voted for nader. democrats that voted for these cretins in the USSC. get in your last jab, because we're done here.