General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsOk wait....so Hobby Lobby didn't ban most birth control, just IUD types?
It is so hard to get facts here sometimes.
mrsadm
(1,198 posts)The point is an employer is now allowed to impose their religious beliefs on its employees. This is a dangerous precedent.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)Skidmore
(37,364 posts)do in their bedrooms or the doctor's office. Period.
joeglow3
(6,228 posts)This is what you get when you tie insurance to employment.
JustAnotherGen
(31,824 posts)RU 486 and Ella- prevent implantation.
Copper and Other types of IUDS.
Do you understand how conception works? I'm not being snarky - but I find that unless people have had to actively TTC or have a medical background they generally don't understand the concept of implantation.
A few rounds of IVF you get real familiar real quick with this stuff.
cbdo2007
(9,213 posts)my wife and I have had multiple IVF rounds as well, and she was pretty worked up about this when she thought they weren't covering the pill...the this morning she is hearing it's only related to IUDs (which she had a very bad experience with and ended up removing it herself)...and everyone here at my work is talking about it and saying it includes the pill, so I'm really just trying to figure out what is or is not going to be covered.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)So Hobby Lobby is essentially getting in between a woman and her doctor. And the Supremes just said that's okay because, religion!
JustAnotherGen
(31,824 posts)IUD's DO have purposes beyond prevention of pregnancy.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)JustAnotherGen
(31,824 posts):group: Not for that poster - i.e. having that health concern.
But knowing it can PREVENT cancer! Okay - Hobby Lobby is just wrong and so are the Scrotum Five.
JustAnotherGen
(31,824 posts)The two methods that best stop implantation that are hormonal.
Your wife and I are probably in the same space/place in regards to 'having a child' - but for me - that's my choice. We have a cut off of $250K (amount to raise a child) before we will quit. Our choice as a couple.
But - another couples choice or woman's choice is hers.
Not everyone gets to a marry a 'The Gio' (how I refer to my lovey hubby around here ) - who am I to say stand in the way of a woman whose b.c. failed or who has been assaulted. Who am I to say this couple whose condom broke shouldn't have sex at all? B.C. fails - ella and r.u. to the rescue.
Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)when Hobby Lobby imposes their religious beliefs onto their employees, as if it were a right...but we are to completely ignore their multiple investments in companies that produce all forms of birth control (because in this case it's not about morality, it's about money) and have 90% of their shelves stocked with a handshake they made with countries that has one of the highest abortion rates in the developed world (again morality is out the window for the greater profit).
JustAnotherGen
(31,824 posts)And I would love to know how they feel about Assisted Reproductive Tech, IVF, IUI, DHEA, etc. etc. I'd bet that those who are against letting things happen naturally - are well -
Against anything that doesn't allow things to happen naturally.
Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)I have an interest in ensuring that my children are not viewed as second class human beings, un-natural people because of the broad, judgemental sentiment that some religious people try to tout.
JustAnotherGen
(31,824 posts)Between you, me, and the OP of this thread - Why does Hobby Lobby seem to think babies just fall out of the sky? They don't - yet for those of us for whom they don't - we still understand that woman/couple that do NOT want or need a child in their life. Or maybe it's because we understand and empathise with the emotional torture/heartbreak that we "get" it?
They suck - they just suck.
And I'd bet you anything that family (Greens) DOES think your children are 'less than'.
cbdo2007
(9,213 posts)but to answer your question, generally most "Christian" groups are against not letting it happen naturally (of course they don't let their broken legs and congested hearts heal naturally, but oh when it comes to baby-making they get all high and mighty and religious all of a sudden).
JustAnotherGen
(31,824 posts)My company would pay for five rounds of IUI - and we consider ourselves very very fortunate that they included coverage for ALL of the testing. They even covered our genetic testing and the follow up consultation with the lab down in Philly. But IVF - Nope - no goal. We are using RMA NJ - not cheap but certainly effective.
William769
(55,147 posts)It's like a snowball going down a hill. Anyone in the LGBT community can tell you how that works.
brer cat
(24,565 posts)And I do think they are gunning for AIDS/HIV next. This ruling really scares me.
Coventina
(27,120 posts)Anything that could be construed (by a crazy person) as causing an abortion.
dixiegrrrrl
(60,010 posts)Compulsory pregnanacy.
But they could not, for whatever reason, come out and say it, so we end up with this weird Supreme Court decision.
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)While Hobby Lobby objected to only 4 forms of contraception, the decision covers ALL contraception as it is impossible to break 4 forms of contraception out from contraception coverage.
People need to pay more attention to the case arguments and the rulings. Counsel for the Defense even stated at argument that Hobby Lobby understood even if it only objected to four forms of contraception that all forms would necessarily be covered by any decision related to the case.
Coventina
(27,120 posts)Thank you!
lostincalifornia
(3,639 posts)function of an employer?
Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)and simply make this single payer with payroll deductions similar to social security.
lostincalifornia
(3,639 posts)Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)as employers chip away at what they are going to cover, base on religious and personal preferances, it will become the natural outcome. I'd say less than 5 years and we will be seeing a huge push, with angrily debated hard legislation in both Houses.
lostincalifornia
(3,639 posts)pass it, and I am very skeptical of that
HockeyMom
(14,337 posts)They think that Plan B causes abortion.
JustAnotherGen
(31,824 posts)Because they believe life begins at egg meets sperm- not at viable implantation.
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)The Hobby Lobby counsel st argument stated that, while it only objected to some contraceptive methods, all contraception would be covered by any decision in its favor. The actual decision does not (& could not) limit to just "some" contraceptive choices.
The plan that Hobby Lobby will offer its female employees will cover NO CONTRACEPTION. Not any form of the pill or any other contraception.
DrDan
(20,411 posts)The Greens actually do not object to all of the 20 forms of birth control under the ACA. However, they are religiously opposed to supplying four methods: morning-after pills Plan B and Ella as well as two kinds of inter-uterine devices (or IUDs).
http://jonathanturley.org/2014/06/30/supreme-court-rules-for-hobby-lobby-in-major-blow-to-obama-administration/
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)Read the decision.
NO form of contraception will be covered. It is impossible to break out some contraceptives and leave others.
No coverage for female employees at Hobby Lobby and 46 other asshole corporations.
WillowTree
(5,325 posts)The decision doesn't prohibit Hobby Lobby from covering the 16 forms of birth control that they do not object to, it just says that they don't have to cover any that they feel are in conflict with their religious beliefs. If all forms of contraception were against their beliefs, then they would not have to cover any, but that's not the case here. It may be for some other religions, however.
karynnj
(59,503 posts)does not mean that they can't include it. This may well become a company by company decision. The ruling does not forbid them from offering it.
The biggest problem in the decision is that it expands what rights a company has -- not just freedom of speech, but now the right to declare it has a religion.
As to why they might cover the forms they are not against, consider that they compete to get employees with other stores. For a young woman, the difference per month of having to buy bc - or getting it free, is not insignificant. Assuming two available jobs (big assumption at this point), you could say that the wages need to be higher by the cost of BC, inflated to cover the impact on taxes to be equivalent. Another reason would be moral of current employees currently using one of the approved forms. A change to excluding them is a wage cut. I assume that this year's insurance plan is set, so it might not happen until next year.
gwheezie
(3,580 posts)They sought an exemption with the insursnce provider for 4 different bc methods that are included in the ACA.
The sc extended to a for profit corporation the right of religious freedom to avoid compliance with a law. So not only are corporations people it seems they are also religions
What amazes me is the claim of this being a narrow position as some sort of reason not to be concerned is baffling. By narrowing the decision to an issue aimed solely at women and basing the decision on one religions dogma it makes it even worse IMHO. The sc picked a favorite religious doctrine by narrowing the decision not to mention they seem to have a favored gender as well
dawg
(10,624 posts)The Court has basically said, "Don't use this ruling as a precedent for anything else, because we all know it's bullshit."
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way. Bush v Gore has been cited many times since 2000.
The precedent is that a corporation does not have to follow laws if the CEO claims it violates his religion. Alito's damage control doesn't actually constrain the precedent. All it does is hint at how the SCOTUS might rule if it sees a case where the boss is ignoring racial discrimination laws, and so on. "Might" being a very important word.
dawg
(10,624 posts)ruling that it was (like Bush v. Gore) not based on any sound legal reasoning that could be *logically* applied to differing circumstances.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)So Hobby Lobby's position actually ALSO gets in the middle of a woman who needs these for non-pregnancy related medical conditions, and her doctor.
Its a slippery slope cbdo2007.
The FACTS are that Hobby Lobby is interjecting itself in between a woman and her doctor. And the Supremes just said thats okay because, well, religion.
maryellen99
(3,789 posts)I was at risk for uterine/endometrial cancer due to have irregular periods. I'd love to see the fundies try and call me a slut for having one. I'm 43 and will have been married for 15 years in September.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)These are private medical decisions that your company shouldn't be a part of - you are the living face of this.
maryellen99
(3,789 posts)This decision has really pissed me off.
Hell Hath No Fury
(16,327 posts)who had breast cancer at 33 and cannot use hormone-based BC, nor can she risk a pregnancy. She uses an IUD for her BC.
joeglow3
(6,228 posts)10+ years ago, my wife worked for a Catholic hospital. They would not pay for birth control of any kind, unless it was prescribed for a medical reason other than birth control (such as yours). Do we know Hobby Lobby does not/would not adopt a similar approach?
kcr
(15,317 posts)They'll ban the exact same birth control, of course. Why the freak out? Geeze!
DesMoinesDem
(1,569 posts)frazzled
(18,402 posts)you can't just be "a little bit discriminatory," either.
This is a B ... F .... D .... So stop trying to minimize it. It puts you in line with the conservatives on the Hobby Lobby side.
To start with, who else is off the hook, or will be? What other companies can ignore which other laws on what real or dreamed-up religious grounds? That is something the majority decision in Hobby Lobby leaves shockingly undefined. Ginsburg called it a decision of startling breadth, one that could allow for-profit corporations to opt out of any law (saving only tax laws) they judge incompatible with their sincerely held religious beliefs. Alito, in his opinion, denies this; so does Anthony Kennedy, in a concurrence. But neither does so persuasively: their reassurance about the protections against what Ginsburg calls the havoc the Courts judgment can introduce come down to, in Alitos case, shrugs about how nothing alarming has shown up on the Courts docket yet and, in Kennedys, the belief that everyone will be sensible about this. But if there hasnt been a wave of cases there also hasnt been a precedent like thisand now there is. And good sense has never been much of a reliable restraint. This suggests that the majority is either being disingenuous about how broad its ruling is or is blind to its own logic. As Ginsburg notes, religious objections to, say, vaccines are neither as theoretical nor as easily put aside as the majority pretends.
Nor is science much of a constraint. Hobby Lobby is really asserting two religious beliefs: that abortion is immoral and that the kinds of contraception it doesnt want to pay for are, in fact, a form of abortion, even though the scientific evidence says they are not. The majority defers to both of these beliefs.
Can a for-profit corporation even have religious beliefscan it be a person acting out of sacred conviction, in the sense of either the First Amendment or the 1993 Religious Freedom Restoration Act (a law Hobby Lobby cites)? Alito doesnt see why not; it doesnt seem fair to him that the owners of a business should have to forgo either identifying its religious rights with their own or the benefits, available to their competitors, of operating as corporations. But corporations create a legal separation between owners and businesses that protects them in many ways; why is the upside a presumptive right and not any downside?
The decision is limited to closely held corporations, that is, ones for which five or fewer owners control more than fifty per cent of the stock, but that is not much of a limit; as Ginsburg writes, closely held is not synonymous with small. Cargill is closely held, and it takes in more than $136 billion in revenues and employs some 140,000 persons. (What if the owners have differing religious beliefs? Alito, in one of this decisions many invitations to litigation, says state corporate law will help.) And anyway, Alito writes, there is nothing here that precludes a publicly held company, of any size, from bringing a suit making the exact same claim: since Hobby Lobby and another company involved in the case, Conestoga, are not in that category, the Court didnt make a judgment on them either way. That may be next.
http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/closeread/2014/06/a-very-bad-ruling-on-hobby-lobby.html
BootinUp
(47,152 posts)pnwmom
(108,978 posts)whether it is actually an abortifaciant or not, including two forms of birth control (Plan B and Ella) that have been proven scientifically not to be abortifaciants. They don't prevent implantation of an embryo or interrupt an ongoing pregnancy.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)pnwmom
(108,978 posts)these methods of birth control.
Ilsa
(61,695 posts)Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)an employee could still utilize BC services. The company was incapable of getting between the employee and their doctor. Now that the mandate has been struck it is the exact same situation as before.
Ilsa
(61,695 posts)Hypothetical. These are real women, my neighbors. There are thousands of women that work for HL that can be affected by HL telling her she can't get through her insurance the contraception her doctor deems best for her.
And as soon as the government starts trying to get it for her, the same RW nutjobs are going to scream about their tax dollars going toward something they find religiously objectionable.
TwilightGardener
(46,416 posts)I guess you can't see that. This is what ALL corporations can now do with ALL or ANY forms of contraception.
TheKentuckian
(25,026 posts)In fact, what is a Hobby Lobby doing making good any medical decisions?
Get that fact straight, Jack.
Travis_0004
(5,417 posts)Perhaps if the democrats would have pushed for single payer this wouldnt be an issue. Instead the ACA requires companies to provide insurance, so it requires companies to get between a person and the doctor even if the choice is as small as deciding what network to use.
boston bean
(36,221 posts)Hobby Lobby doesn't have to offer any contraception and neither does any other religious fanatical closely held corporation.
See the problem?????
tammywammy
(26,582 posts)How one couldn't see a problem with this ruling is mind boggling.
valerief
(53,235 posts)Now, a non-human corporate entity (a person) can have a religion and that corporate religion trumps federal law.
You know, like in those Middle East countries where women are treated like burros. Well, probably worse than burros.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)After all, the decision was just made yesterday.
What the decision lets Hobby Lobby do is ignore any law where they have a religious objection.
Yes, I know Alito tried to do some damage control and included some theoretical situations where the SCOTUS might rule against a corporation. But those don't actually limit the precedent. For example, Bush v. Gore has been cited many times despite the ruling saying it only applied to that case.
Marr
(20,317 posts)claims that *all* medical treatment goes against their beliefs? Are they just exempt?