Time for me to get off the fence.

[davidthegnome]

You know, I once argued here on DU that misandry is a real and painful thing - and I still believe that it can be. In comparison though... to misogyny and it's results? It is like a flea next to an elephant, or like a drop of water next to an ocean.

There are times when I begin to feel that perhaps some men SHOULD be second class citizens. Reading some of the stuff I've read here tonight, for me, paints a very clear picture of why I could never tie myself with MRA groups. I do not support these groups - and cannot honestly see myself ever even seriously contemplating doing so. I suppose there may come a time in the future when men are a severely oppressed group - when women tell us what we can and cannot do with our bodies, what medical treatments we may have the rights to and which we do not.

It is possible that, in the future, religious texts will contain all sorts of examples of why men are somehow inferior to women, should be submissive to women, that men who believe in freedom of choice and sexuality are somehow evil and wicked. It's entirely possible, I suppose, that at some future date, men who accuse their female rapists will be stoned, insulted and assaulted, imprisoned, or called worse than whores for daring to accuse a prominent female athlete or politician of sexual assault.

It is possible even, that at some future point, many Nations and groups will attempt to deny men education, tell us we shouldn't read or worry our pretty little heads over important real world issues - women are talking, let them work.

Perhaps at some future point, men will be as widely demeaned and insulted by music, pop culture and pornographic films as women are. Perhaps at some point we will be more valued by society for our bodies and our pretty faces on magazines than we are as human beings, for our intelligence and compassion and true virtues.

Does everyone see where I'm going with this?

We men of today (some of us) may not be as guilty as our ancestors were in regards to oppression, to cruelty, enslavement, to the denial of equality and civil rights and freedom. We are, however, generally, guilty of a great deal of wrongdoing and wrong-thinking. The cultural, religious, societal and very human battle is still being fought so hard... simply to determine that, yes, women are worth every damn bit as much as we are. Entitled to life, LIBERTY - and the pursuit of happiness.

The vast majority of the 1%? Men. The vast majority of gangsters. The vast majority of right wing militia groups, the KKK, hate groups of all stripes. The vast majority of the republican party and of the tea party fringe group. The vast majority of religious zealots and bigots. The vast majority of the cruel, the ignorant, and the bigoted? Yes, it's us. It's men. This does not mean we're monsters, that we all identify with these things or that we do not fight them as hard as we can.

I love many men and women - when it comes down to it though, I am far more on the side of feminism than I could ever conceive of being on the side of MRA groups. When it comes down to it, the MRA groups are opposed to almost everything I stand for. I will never support the hobby lobby ruling. I will never support someone who thinks women can be or should be forced to give birth. That is the exact sort of thing we should all be fighting against, and damning as hard as we can. I will never support any individual or group that thinks that it has the right to tell other human beings what they can do or not do with their bodies. Particularly when it comes to something so private, so personal and so powerful as giving birth - or not giving birth.

Any business that employs people - any business at all - should have to cover contraceptives, medical procedures, and whatever else the body needs for it's medical care. This is no business of our employers. This is no business of the Supreme court, of the right to life organizations, of the Catholic church or of Protestant churches. It's not MY business, either. It's the business of women who have to face the immense decision of whether or not to give birth.

All humans are created equal. I don't give a damn what some ancient text has to say about it. All human beings should be entitled to the same rights and freedoms. To life, liberty - and the pursuit of happiness. Our Founding Fathers, whether they recognized these simple truths or not, did not pursue them, did not enforce them, did not even truly acknowledge them. Neither the most popular brand of religion or government acknowledges them. So I will acknowledge them here - and in doing so, I humbly beg the forgiveness of all females everywhere, for the frequent idiocy and cruelty of so many of my gender - and of my own idiocy and cruelty.

I've decided that being a feminist, is something I now aspire to. Time for me to start reading.

[Curmudgeoness]

1. Thank you.

I am also saddened by some of the things that I have been reading here lately.

[bravenak]

2. I like this post.nt

[DonViejo]

3. Welcome aboard!...

[Ken Burch]

4. Great OP. And it's not even about "being a feminist"(though that is a good thing to be)

It's about being a decent person.

[Squinch]

5. That's a beautiful and very moving post. Thank you for it.

[herding cats]

6. We need you, and everyone like you.

Equality for everyone isn't a war against anyone. It's about ending long standing wars against certain demographics, that's all. It's a human issue we need to be taking seriously. I'm glad to see you are.

[leftstreet]

7. Wait. What makes you think women would oppress men?

Your post is great and you make excellent points about ancient religious texts

But I don't get this part:

I suppose there may come a time in the future when men are a severely oppressed group - when women tell us what we can and cannot do with our bodies, what medical treatments we may have the rights to and which we do not.

Why would you assume there might come a time when women would do something like this? I don't know any women who'd want to do that

[davidthegnome]

8. I've always had some strange ideas.

I once heard of a book series that dealt with that exact sort of thing (reading is sort of what I do - but I never read that one) - a matriarchal society that treated men as men in the real world treat women. I never read it - though now I wish I had.

I am not assuming that women would do, or would want to do something like this - only saying that it could be conceivable, some day, that such a thing could happen. It could happen, because when it comes down to it, women are every bit as strong as men, every bit as capable of kindness or cruelty. There are many men, who, at times, make me feel that we deserve that very thing - and we will be damned lucky if it never actually happens. If the shoe is never truly on the other foot.

Ultimately, I prefer to believe in compassion, in mercy and forgiveness. This does not though, excuse my gender or my self of many of the things we have said and done. Perhaps I fear our just punishment for how we have behaved throughout history.

Fortunately, I think most of us are far more rational and kind than that - that we do not want a one sided world, but a world in which all sides are treated equally and equally valued. That's the sort of world I'd love to help build.

[leftstreet]

9. Egalia's Daughters

Gerd Brantenberg

Her most famous novel is Egalias døtre ("The Daughters of Egalia&quot , which was published in 1977 in Norway. In the novel the female is defined as the normal and the male as the abnormal, subjugated sex. All words that are normally in masculine form are given in a feminine form, and vice versa.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerd_Brantenberg

[Squinch]

34. Another good one, giving the extreme of the other end of the spectrum is A Handmaid's Tale.

If you haven't read that one, you must.

[cyberswede]

10. Good post.

[aikoaiko]

11. Treat women like the full-fledged people they are and tell other men do so.

Its really that easy.

[TBF]

12. A man of quality -

is not threatened by a woman seeking equality

(an old saying from the 1970s - thank you for this OP)

[calimary]

21. Totally!

A REAL man isn't threatened by these things. Any more than my marriage to my guy is threatened by the idea that gays can marry whomever they love. Their marriage equality has no bearing on my marriage - other than perhaps to reaffirm the entire basic idea of marriage - that you marry whom you love and want to build a life with and have that special kind companionship for life. It doesn't make my marriage some lesser kind of marriage. Similarly, women's rights, and women's reproductive rights - neither has anything to do with questioning anything about any man. It's about WOMEN. If anything, it liberates men too!

[Warpy]

13. Well, I don't think many of us want to see men demeaned

in music, films, pop culture and the workplace. We just want them to stop doing it to us.

That's the bottom line, guys. Feminism at its core is the recognition of women as human beings.

That is a radical notion to far too many men and even a considerable number of women, usually religious women.

Until we get there, we'll have anger and friction.

[delrem]

14. I'm a Canadian in my 60s and have never experienced "misandry".

Way back in time I took courses in community colleges and Universities and got degrees, and all the women I were interested in were "feminists". This was at a time when there were really stupid fuckheads teaching courses, too, and even stupider fuckheads playing the role of "political pundit" in the media, for whom it was all a joke (these things don't change). I couldn't understand these people, these fuckheads -- e.g. the status-quo economics prof who would target those women in his class that didn't respond in the right way to his sick innuendo. Make a running joke of it. Or the status-quo Eng. Lit. prof who tacked up a note on the bulletin board "the only 'ms.' I know is a manuscript", and so on.

I learned more from interacting with the feminists than with these self-assured cranks.

When those years were over I was astounded to find that 'feminist' was such a dirty word, translated to mean "man-hating" and "lesbian" in popular parlance. To be sure I could understand why a young woman might deny association with feminism, exclaiming "I'm not a lesbian!" I was and still am dismayed by it, though.

People have a lot of years to live and learn. Surely they can take their heads out of their asses for the few hours long enough to read one or two books on the subject?

[niyad]

15. thank you for this post

[Marrah_G]

16. This is a great post

[hfojvt]

17. there it is again

"guilty of wrong-thinking"

All those guilty of thoughtcrime please report to room 101 for reconditioning.

and

"the vast majority of the 1%? Men"

I highly doubt that. Almost every single male member of the 1% is married.

In fact, look at Donald Trump. Not only is he a member of the 1%. But so is his first wife, (Ivana worth $60 million), his 2nd wife (Marla worth $30 million) and his 3rd wife (Melania, still living with him) and his daughter Ivanka (worth $140 million)

"The vast majority of the cruel, the ignorant, and the bigoted?"

Has that ever been measured, or is that just a very safe broad brush smear of men?

[DonCoquixote]

18. oh come now

This person made a good honesy statement, and here is an attack..

Look at it this way...you cannot establish that men are more criel than women, but you can use math to determine how many men have ever had the ACTUAL power to make polticial decisions. Yes, throw in Maggie Thatcher, Angela Merkel, and Golda Meir, all horrible people, but most of those who have had the power, and kept the power, have been males. The fact that you can count all the female supreme court justices on one hand says a lot.

[davidthegnome]

19. That's where you're going with this?

Alright.

It is my opinion that there are many who are guilty of "wrong-thinking". No, it sure isn't a crime and I sure don't have the authority to re-educate or punish anyone.

Of course many members (I'm not sure about almost all) of the 1% are married. You will find, however, that it is almost always the males who become prominent or are recognized for this wealth - by either media or society. This is an example of outdated nonsense that suggests that a man is, overall, in control, the head of a household, the family's wealth, or what have you.

As for the final comment you object to... why don't we measure it by violent crime? Why don't we measure it by those guilty of murder, or war crimes, of rape, molestation, of action that ultimately comes as the result of some pretty damned hideous beliefs. Why don't we look at our border right now? Honestly - how many of those vigilantes gearing up do you think will be men? How many women? Do you think they will be anywhere equal in number?

Religious leaders of all stripes - are they more often men or women? The radical Muslims calling for jihad or the radical Christians calling for war with Iraq, Iran, Syria. What of cruel Dictators? What of Hitler, Stalin, Mao, what of George W Bush, Dick Cheney, or Putin?

History, modern media, facts, all of these things indicate that - yes, we sure as hell are more cruel, ignorant, and bigoted. The results of this can be seen in almost every war, in almost every genocide, witch-hunt, border struggle, religious argument or what have you.

If we measure these things by actions and results - damned right we're the far more guilty party.

I'm not interested in smearing men - I'm interested in coming to grips with reality. I'm interested in promoting true equality and supporting the rights and liberties of my fellow human beings. No where am I saying that all men are bad, no where am I saying that all men are cruel, vicious bigots. No where am I saying that men are not entitled to life, liberty - and the pursuit of happiness.

I'm somewhat confused as to what you're actually arguing with.

[passiveporcupine]

32. A little reality from Forbes

The ranks of the world’s billionaires continue to scale new heights–and stretch to new corners of the world. Our global wealth team found a record 1,645 billionaires with an aggregate net worth of $6.4 trillion, also a record, up from $5.4 trillion a year ago. We unearthed 268 new ten-figure fortunes, including 42 new women billionaires, both also records. In total, there are 172 women on the list, more than ever before and up from 138 last year.

So there are 172 women in the world who are billionaires in 2014. Out of a total of 1,645. I think that speaks pretty much to who has the most power in this world.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/luisakroll/2014/03/03/inside-the-2014-forbes-billionaires-list-facts-and-figures/

[Squinch]

35. Figures that you would find the phrase "guilty of wrong thinking" to be proof of your oppression.

He was quite clear that he was referring to a way of thinking and acting that he has since found to be in error. That happens you know. Sometimes people make mistakes and admit to them.

Figures, too, that you would find his post -which is an honest and heartfelt description of a realization of how unjust the world can be - to be a smear of YOU.

Maybe it is. If it is, there is no one to blame for that but yourself.

[hfojvt]

37. I believe the word he used was "we"

He didn't say "I have been guilty of a lot of wrong thinking." He said "we". Meaning "we, men".

Now maybe he was talking about males like Mellon-Scaife, George W. Bush, the Koch billionaires, and so on.

There certainly is a lot of wrong thinking. Insidious wrong thinking.

And it's not like I am never wrong, or ignorant, or even foolish. I know better than that.

But the phrase "GUILTY of wrong thinking" directly implies that people who are wrong need to be excoriated rather than corrected.

I asked a few days ago "why do people think things"

Sort of a rhetorical question, because the obvious answer is "because they think those things are true".

Perhaps if they are wrong they could simply be provided with better information instead of being attacked and punished because, after all, they are guilty.

[noiretextatique]

38. and he is correct...men are responsible

So...you can make a few choices. You can deny the problem...which makes you a part of the problem. You can nitpick over semantics...which makes you a part of the problem. Or you can acknowledge the problem, denounce it...and be a part of the solution. Your choice.

[noiretextatique]

39. i mean really

i don't see how anyone could find fault with the OP....unless they choose to. and that speaks volumes. this has nothing to do with thought, and everything to do with actions. AND the fng SCOTUS just declared discrimination against women perfectly fine...if you have a religious excuse for that bigotry.not to mention the GOP's declaration of war against women. i mean really how much hand-holding do *some* men need to see the obvious...or consider it an affront to humanity?

[el_bryanto]

36. You kind of lose the moment you bring up Ivana Trump as an example of anything.

While I don't think you need reconditioning, perhaps thinking things through a bit more might be beneficial. Being part of the 1% isn't simply a matter of having a lot of money - it's also how that money is used - and in the case of Ivana Trump, her money was acquired based on the shady actions of Donald.

Bryant

[AverageJoe90]

43. I'm sorry, but I have to disagree.

To be truthful with you, I VERY SERIOUSLY doubt that David here was trying to broad brush his fellow men. I'm one, and I didn't get that impression at all.

On edit: I guess I can see how a few things he stated might seem just a *tad* problematic, but none of these are enough to take away from the fact that this is still a good OP, in my view.

[Ino]

20. Thank you for understanding! (nt)

[Tuesday Afternoon]

22. Thank you. K&R

[greatlaurel]

23. Great OP.

Thanks for posting it. Enjoy your posts.

[theHandpuppet]

24. BRAVA!!!

Thank you!

[AuntPatsy]

25. Impressive, thank you...

[mwrguy]

26. Straight men need to be taken down a notch

Glad you agree.

[AllyCat]

31. I don't think they need to be taken down, just

Welcome the equality of all we all help each other to the same level

[TDale313]

27. Really nice post.

Thank you.

[3catwoman3]

28. Well said, sir.

Exceptionally well said.

[BrotherIvan]

29. Big Rec!

I often wonder what the infighting leads to, but I think for many it is very educational. As is your post. It is well written and logical. I think it's rather funny that you have MRA men on this thread accusing you of "misandry" in some respect. Just shows how fragile their egos are when faced with reality.

I've known a few great men in my life, and none of them whined about being treated badly by women. In fact, they didn't give a second thought to treating women as full human beings. Because women were not a threat. It's the same problem with racists, they feel they have so little, they are afraid someone will take it away from them. All delusions. Treating those around with respect leads to great happiness. Treating your wife or daughter or any woman you may meet as merely as sex object or a second class citizen leads to horrible relationships and loneliness throughout your life. I went to the home of a very very famous screenwriter/director who had made it big while he was young and was one of the golden boys of Hollywood. He was famous for having lots of parties and models & actresses for girlfriends in his heyday. He's older now, not quite so on top, but making a comeback. He had a stripper pole in his living room. His gigantic Bel Air house seemed rather empty and sad. As we were leaving someone in our group said, "He seems like the loneliest person I've ever met." And we all agreed. Here was a guy who got everything we're told all the time we're supposed to have. And he was lonely and unhappy because he bought into the bullshit.

Well, your OP was better than my comment. I loved reading it. Thanks for sharing.

[ReRe]

30. That...

... my dear nome, was a great OP. It makes us think.

[PowerToThePeople]

33. Very good OP

I agree 100%. I need to take a more activist stance myself, in more than one area, this one included.

[whathehell]

40. Thank you, David. Your words are more appreciated than you know. n/t

[onecaliberal]

41. Thank you!

The only thing we seek is equality. I appreciate the sincerity. I hope everyone reads it.

[AverageJoe90]

42. Lots of good points in here. I'll keep my response short and sweet.

I was pro-feminist before I even understood what feminism was really about, TBH. And about 4.5 years ago, I saw the light, and finally crossed over to becoming a feminist. And I owe a lot of that to the YouTube feminist community in particular.

As frustrated as I may honestly get sometimes, with my fellows, for whatever reason, I have no plans of ever changing my mind about feminism. Ever. I supported equality then, and I support it now. It's here to stay, and I will do what I can to help make a better world.

So thanks, DavidTheGnome, for posting this wonderful, positive OP. I only wish there were more like it.

[BootinUp]

44. K&R man!

[marions ghost]

45. In men like you there is hope

Those raising kids now--it's a challenge. But raise them to be as sexism free as possible. You will also have to teach girls to be strong enough to overcome it.