Dear would-be allies of women, people of color, and LGBT people

[XemaSab]

Saying that you're against rape or lynching or bashing doesn't make you a good ally on DU.

What makes you a good ally is listening respectfully to our concerns and acknowledging our experiences. That doesn't mean you have to always agree with everything we say all the time. It just means that when we tell you that we think that something is sexist, racist, homophobic, or transphobic, don't argue with us and deny the validity of our feelings.

Thank you.

[boston bean]

1. agree! k&r

[McCamy Taylor]

2. Don't deny the validity of our feelings is the key here.

A corollary would be "Get in touch with your own feelings." If you are George Will and you think that women in college who are no longer ashamed to tell the world that they have been raped are some how being "rewarded" you need to ask yourself "Why do I feel that the fact that these women are not ashamed to talk about their rape makes me feel like a victim?"

The truth may be pretty unsettling---but it is always better to know yourself. If you do not know yourself, you can not know anything.

[nomorenomore08]

34. +1

Excellent advice. For anyone.

[bettyellen]

3. TBH, a better approach is to ask why it seems like racism (or sexism or homophobia) if you don't

see it. Ask questions, learn something and maybe get some empathy. Check yourselffor knee jerk reactions and remember it is not all about you or your experiences.

[XemaSab]

7. TBH, I respectfully disagree with this approach

In practice, it comes too close to saying "Durp, I don't see what's so offensive about it lulz #trollface."

Too many *individuals* around here turn every discussion into Feminism/Black Studies/Gay Studies 101, and put the burden of proof on the injured party.

If you don't get why posting an OP telling people how to turn off threads about women's rights is a problem, then you're never going to get it. And quite a few people here are never going to get it.

[bettyellen]

10. I think asking is better than knee jerk denial- but here on DU- you are right, they actually should

know better. But there's a rash of *no context* posters here, TBH and nothing is going to cure them. Because that is just an act.

[mopinko]

13. sometimes a question is more than just a question.

pretty old and stupid trick.
play stupid and dont agree pretty much no matter what.

sad that such a game is not as transparent as mitt romney's net worth around here.

getting deeper every day.

[bettyellen]

17. true here, it;s often the people who think they are the smartest that suddenly go dumb and have

no context. In real life, I see it quite a bit less.

[AngryAmish]

21. what is tbh?

[dawg]

23. to be honest

Or so I've been told.

[BobbyBoring]

28. Amen to that!

N/T K R!

[XemaSab]

9. Which isn't to say that asking questions is bad TBH

Just... phrasing matters.

[bettyellen]

11. Sorry- I meant if you REALLY don't get it. Can't say I have seen that too often here.....

mostly it's people playing dumb for lulz, TBH.

[XemaSab]

16. word

tbh

[bettyellen]

18. TBH, FTW!

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

4. Recced, cause whether you're a 'good' ally or only a mediocre one

you're still going to fall into the trap of privileging your own worldview off and on, so a reminder never hurts.

And now I'll sorta fall into that trap right now by adding my own addendum to the above post - 'If you find yourself talking about 'real' ____ism, then you're probably just looking for a way to deny ____ism that others have pointed out, because you don't 'see' it. So quit making up your own definitions that are more stringent as to what is 'real' than the people actually living it use.'

[LeftyMom]

5. Allies need to recognize that being a better ally is an ongoing process.

Listen, ask questions, don't take it personally when somebody tells you you're wrong about something, and keep working to improve your understanding. Don't flip the fuck out and make a scene when somebody gives you constructive criticism, even if it's a bit pointed. No matter how dedicated or well-read an ally you are, people in the effected community have a perspective and years of experience that you don't, and learning from them is fundamental to being a good ally.

In short, being an ally demands that one keep their ego in check and focus on the issue rather than what a good person they are for helping the poor (marginalized community) when they don't have to because they're (dominant community.)

[leftstreet]

12. Excellent point

Helping at the local food bank doesn't mean you actually heard anything an impoverished person had to say, or that you automatically understand their concerns, or that you're qualified to dispense advice

[alp227]

6. yeah. i mean ANY decent human being would take the obvious moral position,

but it's stupid to want to be an ally simply on that basis. it's like that Chris Rock joke, "'I take care of my kids...I ain't never been to jail!' What do you want, a cookie?" Taking the moral high ground is one thing, exploring the depths & nuances a whole 'nother league.

[Half-Century Man]

8. I found a technique which works for me in situations I'm unfamiliar with.

Ask questions respectfully.

[DeSwiss]

14. K&R!

- XemaSab!

[mopinko]

15. my favorite is the ones who say- it isnt all about you.

as they proceed to make it all about them that are so special.
them and their a- stupid questions b- willful ignorance or c- bullshit.

deeper and deeper

[ismnotwasm]

19. K&R

[pipoman]

20. Maybe it would be helpful if some of those with

Grievances learned that little sympathy comes from belittling and bullying potential sympathizers. Some would do well to express their grievances without labeling entire demographics as something offensive. ..maybe. ...

[HERVEPA]

51. Yup

[sheshe2]

22. KnR

[hfojvt]

24. "don't argue with us"

Who is "us"?

Is there universal agreement from some group?

But even if there was universal agreement, that still means one group is always right?

Okay, even if that group IS right, why shouldn't they have to prove it? Are they the boss of me? Is that how this "alliance" works? They tell me what to think, and I think it, even if I do not understand it, or even if think I do understand it and it seems wrong?

Sorry, but that simply isn't an equal partner.

As for your feelings. Not to deny them.

If you have them, you have them. But if you cannot or will not explain them and I do not understand them, then you are gonna seem oversensitive and maybe a little bit psychotic.

As my sister said about our family "we are a teasing family". We dish it out, take it and dish it right back, because we know we are family. I just do not expect to have to tiptoe around and worry about offending people that I love, or people that are my friends. Family and friends should not be quick to take offense. Not when no offense is intended.

I can see that it is annoying to explain why you are angry, especially during the time when you are angry. And certainly people who don't NEED an explanation, because they already share the anger, seem like better allies than people who need an explanation.

But generally there is a whole wide world out there that probably needs an explanation if you are gonna win them over to our side. If we want our side to win, then the message "if you don't agree with me, then you can fuck off" does not strike me as a winning message.

A big tent with a lot of disagreements is better than a smaller tent that is in complete agreement.

[mythology]

35. I agree with this

I find it a bit insulting to say that others aren't to have different opinions or see things from a different perspective. I'm currently having a difference of opinion with somebody who is a close friend, but I don't think he's not my friend just because he disagrees with a stand that I've taken. He's entitled to his point of view.

I've certainly felt aggrieved in my life where it turns out with time and discussion leading to thinking things through I realized that my initial feelings were wrong. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. But if I said that nobody was allowed to argue with me, then I wouldn't have gained some insight.

[Squinch]

54. I don't really need insight from a man when he tells me that I am wrong when I speak about

experiences that are unique to women. And he knows better about those experiences than I do. I am sure people of color and gay people feel the same about their understanding of their own experience.

[zeemike]

40. You will just get yourself in trouble with this.

And yes we have groups with universal agreements and posting something different than they believe will bring them down on you like a ton of...something.

Being allies is a two way street...and you don't bully your allies if you want them to support you.

And I feel the same way sometimes, like you have to tip toe around here never knowing when someone will take offense at what you say...or see some kind of ism in your words...and I like you cannot imagine doing that with people you love...it is just not worth it.

[Blue_Adept]

44. This.

I can see a lot of people reading the original post and just getting a whole of "white men, just shut up", which when talking about those that consider themselves allies, is frustrating because you want to be involved, help and learn. Both sides seem to be damaging each other more now as the left side of the equation comes across as circular firing squads with these new purity tests.

[noiretextatique]

47. 99.99% of black people believe Trayvon Martin was murdered

why? because 99.99% of black people have been racially profiled or will be. and this is something 99.99% of black people know. the other .01% are clarence thomas, herman cain, and the other few blacks in the GOP's clown car. that's an example of what the OP is talking about.

[hfojvt]

49. polls I find, two of them, say 86%

but they don't say "murder" either. Just that 86% of black people were not happy with the "not guilty" verdict.

And 85% of black people approve of Obama's job performance.

Maybe the 14% in both cases are Clarence Thomas and Colin Powell types. Upper class blacks who voted Republican.

So, yes, there can be a huge majority of some group who agree on a position, like

Zimmerman should have gone to jail.
Obama is doing a good job.

But that means what? That the majority is never wrong? That a white ally is never allowed to disagree with that majority? That somebody who disagrees isn't really an ally?

Well, we have been allies in the past. At least we were on the same side supporting Obama over Hillary and then Obama over McCain and then Obama over Romney.

If we lived in the same district we might be allies in the future. Although here is a question. In my district, a black pastor is running for the legislature - as a Republican. The Democratic candidate is a white woman (who was a Republican just six years ago).

So now the question is, am I still an ally with most black people or are THEY gonna switch sides?

[PeaceNikki]

25. Amen

[Ohio Joe]

26. k&r -nt

[theHandpuppet]

27. Well said.

Thanks very much.

[William769]

29. kick & recommended.

[rickyhall]

30. OK

[lrellok]

31. Ahem...

In 1300 norway the Lived Experience of the people was that the sun was a flaming chariot pulled across the sky by a bunch of goats. This turned out to be wrong in nearly every particular (the sun was on fire).

The problem with this OP is that in asserting lived experience as inherently valid, you are invalidating the lived experience of European peoples, which is that lived experience is frequently woefully incorrect because the viewer is limited in their point of observation. (the place they are observing from not presenting a clear enough picture to draw conclusions.)

Oh, and about respect. *re* means "again", and *spect* means "to look". If i examine your case twice and still find it lacking, then yes, i have respected you. Respect does not mean a assume your position to be correct merely because you are stating it, it means to reconsider the statement testing the validity of previous assumptions/methodology. It is entirely plausible that the assumptions/methodology prove equally valid on a second examination.

[theHandpuppet]

33. Give me a minute here...

Um... you were saying?

[ismnotwasm]

53. LOL

[nomorenomore08]

36. It's just a matter of not assuming you know someone else's experiences better than they do.

Particularly if you haven't had comparable experiences yourself.

[Squinch]

52. So when people here talk about their lived experience you think it is as invalid as people believing

the sun was pulled by goats. Essentially, you are saying that they cannot recognize racism, sexism or homophobia when it is directed at them.

Good to know.

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

32. I've never understood how someone who is not from an affected group could deny the

experiences of others. If you aren't black/brown or any other person of color, how can you sit and exclaim that racism doesn't exist; or, that experiences with racial discrimination amounts to one of us "overreacting" or being "overly sensitive"?

If you're not a woman, how as a man can you proclaim that sexism is overblown; or, the claim that the war on women is farfetched? Or, that if a man is treating a woman as a sexual object, she should lighten up. It's all in good fun, and what's the matter? Women like for men to think of them as desirable, don't we?

If you're straight and you discount the experiencing of LGBT, the mistreatment, the downright hatred--well, I just don't understand it.

And if you're white/non-POC LGBT, you need to be cognizant of the racism and sexism that exists within your community as well.

[nomorenomore08]

37. Because they know everything, and they're the only person who matters.

It's classic self-centeredness, really.

[noiretextatique]

48. privilege

with privilege comes some false beliefs, e.g., the ability to have the final word. and the ability to define what is and what is not. and the belief that you are superior, and therefore always right.

[smirkymonkey]

56. +1000

Excellent post.

[longship]

38. And there are many of us here.

Who are Caucasion, male, and/or heterosexual (or whatever combination of such) who are with you 100%, without any qualifications or equivocations.

We don't make exceptions on such things and see any as a sell out, just as you would.

It's also a matter of standing united against what any thinking person can see are evil political forces.

[Silent3]

39. "doesn't mean you have to always agree with everything" but also "don't argue with us"

So it's OK to disagree, but keep it to yourself?

Maybe those who disagree can say a little something, but only ever so very, very carefully?

[me b zola]

41. I wish that I could add this entire thread to my jounal

[R B Garr]

42. K&R Very well said! n/t

[Behind the Aegis]

43. This should apply to other groups too.

It isn't a matter of being a group which requires/has allies, but just about any minority group. Just recently, a number of Jewish posters were told something wasn't anti-Semitic, and even if it was "meh." It is OK to express an opinion contrary, but to deny someone's personal experience is not beneficial. There are often disagreements within groups, that is also OK. Also, if someone is really an ally, they don't use the experiences and trials of others to "prove their point" or to "make a point." It is aslo counterproductive to joke about being a bigot because it, IMO, makes me think the person is really trying to expose their true feelings/intentions (i.e. (disagreeing with Obama) "Oh, I guess that makes me a racist! haha!&quot .

[IronLionZion]

45. Most everything is a matter of perspective

individuals perceive the exact same thing in wildly different ways.

Everything means precisely jack shit until we add our own meaning to it. Someone else's opinion on something really shouldn't be taken as denying the validity of your opinion, they are just opinions, driven by differing experiences.

Be wary of anyone who claims to agree with you all of the time. One of you is unecessary.

[Orrex]

46. Great post. I confess that this is sometimes difficult for me.

Last edited Thu Jul 10, 2014, 10:58 AM - Edit history (1)

I've long since gotten past the point of taking it personally when someone relates their own experience of racism, sexism or homophobia, but I'm still sometimes clumsy in recognizing that the point of such discussions here is often simply to articulate one's feelings and to seek support from others with similar experiences.

I'm working on it, but posts like yours are a good reminder of the value of empathy.

k/r

[CreekDog]

50. good post :)

[WatermelonRat]

55. A good general rule, but it depends heavily on what that "something" is.

If it's something like the case where people thought "water buffalo" was a racist slur and nearly expelled a kid for it, I'm certainly going to argue and deny the validity of the claim.

Keeping an open mind and considering others points of view is a good thing, but we should still ultimately use our own mind in deciding our views on a matter. Sometimes, that decision will be that we don't know enough about a case to make proper judgement and should concede to others who are more familiar, but other times it will mean challenging a claim.