Israel is not "the Jews".

[Ken Burch]

If you are opposing Israeli security policy on moral or humanitarian grounds, that is legitimate and valid.

But the following distinction is crucial, and must be maintained at all times.

Israel is NOT "the Jews".

The terms "Israel" AND "The Jews" should never EVER be used synonymously.

Israel is simply a state...a state which claims to be "Jewish".

Not all Jews live in Israel or want to live there.

A growing number of Israeli Jews oppose what the Netanyahu government is doing.

If you oppose what the Israeli government is doing, it's bullshit to blame Jews as a group for that government's actions, AND it's bullshit to criticize Israel on the issue of your motivation for doing so is plain old hatred of Jews.

Haters need to go away...and need to be MADE to go away if they won't leave voluntarily.
People organizing rallies on the Gaza war need to be vigiliant about keeping bigots out of the rallies.

Hatred of Jews has NO legitimate place in this discussion(just as hatred of Palestinians, Arabs or Muslims has no legitimate place in it).

None of this should HAVE to be said...but unfortunately, it does need to be.

[El Supremo]

1. It is "the Zionists."

I always try to distinguish the two.

[delrem]

9. I've been told that it's antisemitic to oppose Zionism.

I've been told that anti-Zionism just uses "code words".
Read I/P if you don't know about the orchestrated pushback against people who try to underscore that distinction.

[LiberalElite]

52. There's at least one ultra-orthodox Jewish sect

that opposes Zionism and some members of this sect can be seen participating in pro-Palestinian demos.

[delrem]

53. Oh yes.

I consider the posts of a DUer "Israeli" to be paradigm of an opposition movement, and this paradigm was weaned in a Kibbutz and is totally patriotic. That last, in my opinion, of course. That isn't "ultra-orthodox", to be sure! More like "socialist" and "leftist".

[Scootaloo]

61. Neturei Karta, and they're no friends of Palestinians

They are best described as "extreme fringe,' whose theology basically says that jews are not allowed to ever do anything without God's explicit say-so. This just happens to include the state of Israel. They oppose Israel because of an extremely fundamentalist take on Judaism, and utilize pro-Palestinian demonstrations as springboards for their bullshit. It's opportunism, not support (though granted, individuals may or may not, but the sect as a whole, doesn't)

They can believe whatever loony stuff they want, good for them. But if you're looking for pro-Palestinian Jews, you're better off saving these creeps for last. You'll find plenty of sane, admirable people in the category long before you scrape the bottom of the barrel where Neturei Karta lives.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

132. No, Neturei Karta are a joke.

There is, however, an umbrella ultra-orthodox group which includes NK, the Haredim, are also ant-Zionist. There's an amalgam of various secular and religious groups who are opposed to the Israeli state.

[WatermelonRat]

88. At its most basic, Zionism refers to Jewish self-determination.

Using it as a snarl word and then justifying it by pointing to extremist offshoots comes off similar to someone going on an angry rant against 'feminists' and then responds to accusations of sexism by claiming that he was only talking about man hating radicals.

[starroute]

19. I recently stumbled across an interesting newspaper image from 1952

It's the front page of the Jewish Floridian from April 13, 1952.
http://ufdc.ufl.edu/AA00010090/01262

Because it's an image, I can't copy and paste, but it's worth reading the story in the center headlined "Attack Zionism at National Talk." It's about the president of a group called the American Council for Judaism charging that "world Zionism seeks to achieve the migration of American Jewish youth to Israel through slanted textbooks in religious schools" that "'were saturated with separatism.'" He also complained that most of the funds collected by the United Jewish Appeal were "'at the disposal of the World Zionist Organization.'" And he warned that "all the fund-raising efforts for Israel in the United States 'impose upon American Jews the fullest possible burden of Israel's national financial obligations'" and that they should be made aware of "'the degree to which they have been sucked into this foreign, political maelstrom.'"

It was a very different world then, but it was the world I grew up in -- and it's important to realize that there was a time when Zionism could be condemned as "separatism" and lavish support of Israel was seen as a trap that American Jews should be wary of falling into.

(Also of interest is the story to the right of that one about Menachem Begin insisting that his party had nothing to do with sending mail bombs to German Chancellor Konrad Adenauer and to the German delegation at reparations talks in The Hague.)

[starroute]

22. The American Council for Judaism still exists -- though barely

I just checked it out on Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Council_for_Judaism

The American Council for Judaism (ACJ) is an organization of American Jews committed to the proposition that Jews are not a nationality but merely a religious group, adhering to the original stated principles of Reform Judaism, as articulated in the 1885 Pittsburgh Platform.

The ACJ was founded in June 1942 by a group of Reform rabbis who opposed the direction of their movement, including, but not limited to, the issue of Zionism as redefined by the Biltmore Program in May 1942. After the Reform movement declared itself officially neutral on Zionism in 1937, the split was prompted by the passage of a resolution endorsing the raising of a "Jewish army" in Palestine to fight alongside the Allies of World War II. ... The presidency of the ACJ was accepted by the well-known philanthropist Lessing J. Rosenwald, who took the lead in urging the creation of a unitary democratic state in the British Mandate of Palestine in American policy-making circles. Though up against overwhelming support for the creation of a Jewish state in Congress, the Council had many friends who supported its position in the State Department such as Sumner Welles and Dean Acheson

Support for the American Council for Judaism came primarily from Jews of German descent who were historically attached to Classical Reform Judaism, but also from many Jewish socialists who opposed Zionism, and many more of whom who were uncomfortable with the Jewish religion coalesced around William Zukerman and his Jewish Newsletter. Jewish intellectuals who at one time or another passed through the Council included David Riesman, Hans Kohn, Erich Fromm, Hannah Arendt, Will Herberg, Morrie Ryskind, Frank Chodorov, and Murray Rothbard. Among the notable gentile friends of the Council were Dorothy Thompson, Norman Thomas, Freda Utley, Arnold J. Toynbee, and Dwight MacDonald. The ACJ was particularly influential in San Francisco.

The ACJ sharply declined in activity following the Six Day War in 1967, when the American Jewish community was swept up by overwhelming support for Israel. Moderates within the Council forced Elmer Berger to resign the following year for declaring that Israel had been the primary aggressor in the war.

[Chathamization]

29. Many Jews have opposed to Zionism; historically, reform Judaism was largely opposed to it

Even among those that were Zionist, there were many who were moderate and favored a multicultural state. There seems to have been a very, very nasty campaign by right-wingers that's tried to cast any Jewish opponent to Israeli militarism as a "self-hating Jew" (basically, the equivalent of "race traitor&quot . I recently found some nasty examples of that in this post about Glenn Greenwald by Jeffrey Goldberg. Thankfully, many people have been standing up to bullies like these.

[villager]

26. The problem is that "Zionist" is also a catch-all for "Jewish conspiracies"

...i.e, "Zionist Occupation Government," "Protocols of the Elders of Zion," et al

So there is that imagined "Zionist control" of the banks, the media, etc.

The problem, really, is the militarists in charge of shaping government policy -- the extremists, if you will.

Which is the problem everywhere.

[malaise]

2. Agreed

The distinction is important.

[phantom power]

3. 100% true

On a related note, it is equally bullshit to accuse people who don't approve of Israel of hating Jews.

But that's exactly the problem with failing to separate religion and government. It muddies the waters very badly and brings out the worst of human tribalism.

[obama2terms]

102. I was accused of hating Jews yesterday because I said I don't approve what BB's gov't is doing

But it's pretty hard for me to hate Jews because I am a Jew. That ended the argument quickly, but still. I find it offensive that some people seem to think my being Jewish means I have to have undying loyalty towards Israel and will never speak out when Israel does something wrong.

[delrem]

4. Israel doesn't just "claim" to be Jewish. It is written into Israel's basic laws.

Nobody is (or rather, few are) blaming "Jews" for Israel's war against Gaza.

But it is wrong to portray the problem w.r.t. Israel as something other than fundamentally racist.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

5. I don't think the poster is.

He's just pointing out that Israel has the same problems the US does. The extremists on the right hate brown people.

(Edit, yes I know, Palestinians aren't all brown, I was being slightly snarky there.)

[delrem]

7. The US isn't a "white state", according as US laws.

That's a big difference. Think about it.

[Gore1FL]

15. It is a big difference, but it's not what the original poster was saying.

"Israel is Jewish" is very different than "Israel is all Jews." "The Jews" aren't attacking Gaza. "Israel" is attacking Gaza. That's the point of the OP.

[delrem]

16. You're making a distinction that doesn't exist.

Israel is a Jewish state according as Israel's basic laws.
Of course this doesn't mean that all Israeli citizens are Jews.
It does mean that all Israeli nationals are Jews, having advantage of the basic laws that favor Israeli nationals.

This most certainly has a bearing on the fact that approx. 80% of Gazans are refugees, victims of the Nakba.
This most certainly has a bearing on how Judea and Samaria (how Israel designates the West Bank) is divided into areas A, B, and C.

I don't see how that can be in good faith denied.

[H2O Man]

20. Likewise, there are many

Jewish citizens in the United States who are openly opposed to the current Israeli policy of war.

[delrem]

21. Yes. This has nothing to do with the point: Israel is, by law, a Jewish state.

I wasn't being anti-Semitic when I pointed that out. I wasn't condemning "Jews", as such.
I was pointing out a fact about the *state* of Israel, as described in legal documents.

[H2O Man]

99. Respectfully disagree.

The title of the OP is rather clear: "Israel is not 'the Jews'."

You can, of course, speak to any part of the OP, or any other tangent of discussion that results from folks talking about the OP. Yet, despite if it is of particular interest to you, or fits the conversation you prefer, my point was 100% accurate (likely even moreso).

One need not live in Israel to be a Jew. More, plenty of people who live in Israel are not Jewish.

In regards to the point you are attempting to make, you are, of course, correct, if in a limited way.

[delrem]

134. My point is 100% correct. nt

[H2O Man]

139. No, it's not.

You are clearly confusing it with my point, which is more than 100% correct, and of far more value to the human race.

Your's is okay, though. All things reconsidered.

[delrem]

140. I see, you're "more than 100% correct". Nice to know that. nt

[H2O Man]

143. Correct.

Now you are making sense.

[delrem]

144. I don't understand your point. Why you think Ken Burch's obvious point

negates the fact that I interjected with.

I just don't fucking see your objection. Do you REALLY think that by adding my opinion, I opposed Ken's point? Really?

It just bloody boggles me.

eta: One guy even put me on ignore, for making a point about elementary foundational law. Just boggling.

eta2: Here I make a more lengthy defence of my statement
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5296063

[Gore1FL]

24. Regardless.

"The Jews" aren't attacking Gaza. Israel, which happens to be a Jewish state, is attacking Gaza. ISIS is an organization of Muslims. Muslims aren't running rampant through Iraq, ISIS is.

Even in 1588 when Spain, driven by Catholic furor, sent a great Armada of ships against the very not-Catholic England, it was not the Catholics who attacked. It was Spain. It was not the protestants who sunk that fleet, but the English who happened to be protestant.

The point of the OP was to say that Israel is not representative of all Jews. Israel is not synonymous with Jews. Israel may be using religion/heritage/race as an excuse to dehumanize, as a rallying cry, or whatever. It doesn't matter. They aren't "The Jews." No nuance is necessary.

[delrem]

31. I didn't deny that.

My post wasnt antisemitic.
Thank you.

[Gore1FL]

58. Who said your post was antisemetic?

If you are not denying what I say then I appreciate your vehement agreement.

Have a good night.

[delrem]

59. I'm happy that you can agree with me on the cause of the problem. n/t

[Gore1FL]

80. Equating the State of Israel as a synonym for Jews is the problem addressed by the OP.

Religion sucks in all cases. The fact that Israel uses religion is a real problem. It has nothing to do with this thread, however.

[delrem]

136. Yes, that's true.

Last edited Sat Jul 26, 2014, 09:51 PM - Edit history (1)

And of course it's wrong (no brainer).

But "equating South Africa Apartheid with Whites" is wrong, too, in the same way.
What made South Africa Apartheid 'apartheid' is just that a system of discrimination favoring South African "whites" (generally, of European extraction) was built into FOUNDATIONAL LAW. It wasn't a flash in the pan, it wasn't just random individuals involved in racial discrimination, it wasn't just systemic but illegal abuse. It was FOUNDATIONAL LAW. That's what made it (to a higher factor) horrific.

It is WRONG to sugarcoat or elide this fact about South Africa Apartheid. It is just as WRONG to sugarcoat or elide the systematic LEGISLATED abuse that Israel engages in.

Of course not all "whites" (I put "white" in quotes because it's a non-scientific, racist designation) lived in South Africa Apartheid! Of course not all "whites" who lived there supported Apartheid! Of course not all people who lived in South Africa Apartheid were white! But that's a no brainer, so obvious it should go without saying. It is NOT racist to say that the discriminatory SA Apartheid laws were *causal*, and favored "whites", and the whole system was all about white supremacy. It's just a fact.

I say that Israel runs an Apartheid country, just because it has apartheid FOUNDATIONAL LAWS that favor one ethnicity over all others.
That's all I'm saying. I'm not denying that Ken Burch is correct, that Israel != Jew, because again, that's so obvious it hurts.

[Baclava]

6. yeah - if one of those errant rockets would "accidently" destroy The Dome of the Rock

....then we'd be gettin' into that Biblical shit!


It's tribal war - one side always loses

[Spider Jerusalem]

8. No, it isn't

but you know, anti-Semitic protests are going to happen when Israel is identifying itself as "the Jewish state" and enforces a loyalty oath recognising "the Jewish character of Israel". Arab/Muslim anti-Semitism is a direct result of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict; it's totally unrelated to Christian European anti-Semitism (which is based on blood libels and the Christ-killer myth). If Palestinians weren't being dispossessed in the name of "the Jewish state"? You wouldn't be seeing the anti-Semitic protests. It's unfortunate and ugly, but it's also not that surprising considering the context.

[Mosby]

130. arab/muslim antisemitism existed long before israel

By claiming that antisemitism is a direct result of the conflict you're essentially blaming Jews for arab/Muslims bigotry.

[Spider Jerusalem]

131. No, I'm blaming Israeli colonialism.

Israel is not "the Jews". And anti-Israeli Muslims at rallies in support of Gaza chanting "kill the Jews" isn't really very different, in context, to anti-apartheid protesters in South Africa singing "Kill the Boer". Things don't happen in a vacuum.

[reorg]

10. no, absolutely not

I recently discovered this report about a pro-Palestinian demonstration in London on 11 July:

and I would recommend for all those aggressive Arab youths chanting rhymes at "Jews" to watch it. As far as I can tell, though, they constitute a very small minority of the protesters. Usually the difference between Zionists in Israel and Jewish citizens - wherever they may live - is well recognized and respected.

[delrem]

23. "all those aggressive Arab youths" nt

[reorg]

25. those who shouted certain chants at recent demonstrations

which are documented on this YouTube channel.

Usually, such pro-Palestinian demonstrations in Germany are neither violent nor aggressive and more careful about the language they use:

Frankfurt, July 12

[etherealtruth]

11. Agreed!

[H2O Man]

12. The distinction is important.

Thank you.

Recommended.

[randome]

13. That was bullshit this morning and it's bullshit now.

Israel deliberately commingles identities. Being Jewish means being a race and a religion and a geographical location, all simultaneously.

When will we stop letting religions get away with saying, "Hey, it's not our religion, it's just some people doing bad things."? When will enough be enough?

There is no fundamental difference between Muslim extremists and Jewish extremists, in my mind. Both sects want to tie their religion to their race and to a geographical location. That's what they want so why should it be a surprise when others conflate those identities?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in."
Leonard Cohen, Anthem (1992)[/center][/font][hr]

[BainsBane]

49. Did you blame Muslims in America or France for 9/11?

If not, why blame Jews as a whole for the War with Gaza? Whether you hate religion or not is irrelevant. This is a geopolitical conflict, of the sort other countries wage, including our own. Does that must make you a Christian extremist?

[randome]

75. Until someone of the likes of Ghandi stands up and leads these people out of the wilderness...

...they will kill each other forever. They are two sides of the same coin. And yes, I blame religion for this level of extremism. It's time to stop seeing religion as having nothing whatsoever to do with all this killing.

If you aren't part of the solution, then you're part of the problem. Where are the thousands renouncing their faith (which is just a comfortable illusion for the well-heeled) in an effort to stop the bloodshed?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in."
Leonard Cohen, Anthem (1992)[/center][/font][hr]

[BainsBane]

76. How are dismissing "these people"

as disposed to "kill each other forever" being part of the solution?

This is a conflict about land, water, and self-determination. You see it as about religion whereas someone else might see it as about ethnicity or race, and the result would be the same level of dismissiveness. Pretending renouncing their faith would change any of that is ridiculous. Clearly this is just an opportunity for you to look down on most of the world's population who aren't as superior as a First World American. I can think of no greater demonstration of being part of the problem than the contempt you express to those who differ from yourself. Meanwhile, you lack even the most basic understanding of a conflict between people you think so inferior to yourself.

[randome]

79. Sure, religion has nothing to do with killing and neither do guns.

How much longer will we accept that? They are all a bunch of loony-tunes who kill people in the 'name' of their religion but of course that has nothing to do with religion.

When I say that Muslims and Jews are two sides of the same coin, I mean I mock them equally. Both religions insist on using clothing as a way to feel closer to God. That's laughable. As if a hat or a turban has anything to do with one's beliefs.

It's all a farce.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]A 90% chance of rain means the same as a 10% chance:
It might rain and it might not.[/center][/font][hr]

[Scootaloo]

63. i think you miss the point

Yes, Israel does constantly try to conflate the terms "Jew," "Israel," and "Zionist." - so do numerous pro-Israel organizations (interestingly, AIPAC is one of the very few that is honest bout its interests in this regard.)

However, this doesn't actually make the three terms synonyms. One is a nation-state. The other is a category of people, and the third is a political philosophy.

This conflation is an effort by Israel and many of its supporters to exploit Jews as a form of cover - that if you oppose Israel then you oppose "Jews" and are therefore a nasty Nazi or whatever. Meanwhile Jews who disagree with this paradigm are excommunicated, lbeled "self-hating" and all sorts of other nasty shit.

Jews are not israel, and Israel is not Jews. Anyone telling you otherwise is up to some shit.

[randome]

74. But it's Israel that is telling us that.

If that's what they want, then why would anyone be surprised that people accept it?

I agree, the purpose is to absolve themselves of blame by constantly playing the 'Jew-hater' card. Both sects -Muslims and Jews- are to be blamed for what is happening.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in."
Leonard Cohen, Anthem (1992)[/center][/font][hr]

[obama2terms]

107. I am Jewish and I have lived in America my whole life

I've never been to Israel, or left the country for that matter. So let me get this straight, I am some how to blame for a conflict going on in a country I have never been to, nor have a desire to go to, and I have no family there? Same with Muslims living in America or outside the Middle East, how are they responsible for a conflict going on in a country they don't live in, never visited etc.? Palestinians and Israelis are to blame for this NOT Jews or Muslims. You are doing nothing here but perpetuating an ugly stereotype.

[randome]

135. So you're the exception.

But I don't understand how you can adhere to a faith that so many use as justification for killing.

I no more understand that than I do Christians who kill abortion doctors or who want to take away the rights of women and other minorities.

We are 'treated' to an endless pounding of the idea that Israel is synonymous with being Jewish and vice-versa. Why would you be surprised that this idea has taken root in the world?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

[obama2terms]

148. I'm no exception

I ain't the only one honey, not even close. When someone kills someone ( unless in self defense) its just wrong. People can try to justify it with religion or anything else but only idiots believe there is any justification let alone a religious justification for murdering someone. "We are 'treated' to an endless pounding of the idea that Israel is synonymous with being Jewish and vice-versa. Why would you be surprised that this idea has taken root in the world?" By who BB Nutty Yahoo and his little ilk of right wing nationalists? National origin and religion are two different things. Israel is a country, Judaism is a religion so really they aren't synonymous. How can a country and a religion be almost the same thing? That doesn't make any sense.

[malaise]

14. Interesting read here

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jul/23/british-jews-gaza-conflict-jewish-community
<snip>
In truth though, the situation is more complex and more ambiguous. While surveys have shown that a large majority of British Jews – like Jews elsewhere in the diaspora – believe in a Jewish state and identify with Israel, there has been a significant fragmentation over the question of Israel in recent years.

A variety of positions on Israel have emerged since the outbreak of the second intifada in 2000. These range from Jewish anti-Zionists on one side, to the religious, settlement-supporting right at the other. Perhaps most significantly, the centre of the British Jewish Israel “map” has split into different factions, including those who believe Israel must always be publicly supported, those who are prepared to countenance a variety of broadly Zionist views, and those who feel that Israel must be pushed hard to achieve a two-state solution.

Some Jewish institutions incorporate – sometimes uncomfortably – those who hold to a variety of positions, and new institutions have emerged to fight for one particular position, such as Yachad, the “pro-Israel pro-peace” organisation that occupies similar territory to J-Street in the US.

One of the key moments in this process of fragmentation was Operation Cast Lead in 2008-9. Not only was the organisation of what is now the almost-traditional Jewish community rally in support of Israel made much more difficult as some Jewish leaders found it hard to offer unambiguous support for Israel’s actions, towards the end of the conflict some mainstream Jewish leaders were beginning to express significant criticism of Israel.

One might have assumed then that this current operation – Protective Edge – which is militarily quite similar to Cast Lead, would occasion a similar or even greater level of plurality of views from British Jews. Yet at first glance this doesn’t seem to have happened. A rally in support of Israel was held last weekend, and only Jews for Justice for Palestinians and similar groups have taken a strong stance against Israel.

[tridim]

17. No distinction, we're all human. nt

[A-Schwarzenegger]

18. "Israeli security policy"

Who could oppose such a benign euphemism?

[Ken Burch]

28. I didn't use that term to soft-pedal anything.

The intention was to incorporate not only the war, but the Occupation, the Gaza Siege pre-war AND the settlement construction policy.

It's meant as an umbrella term.

[Maedhros]

101. Use as much snark as you wish, pikkel.

But you are clearly prejudiced against Jews, and that's unhelpful.

[Maedhros]

115. You continue to attach to all Jews the responsiblity for what the Israeli Government is doing.

Such is demonstrably not the case. It's as if you want to demonize the Jewish religion, not the actions of the Israeli Government.

I call that prejudice.

[obama2terms]

118. You obviously don't like Jews

So I am going to keep what I say simple because I know bigots have small brains and a low capacity for logic and reasoning. Do you even know the origins of Christian Zionism? Do you know every Jewish person in the world? If you do have you asked them if they approve of Christian Zionism? Christian Zionism became a thing in the late 1800s after pogroms against Jews in Russia. Shortly after that , Christian Zionists formed a committee to try to get those Jews out of Russia and into Palestine. That was what Christian Zionists did for many years, getting Jews out of areas with governments plagued with anti-semitic policies. in 1979, the Moral Majority was founded by Rev. Jerry Falwell, the Moral Majority was an organization made up of conservative Christian political action committees that mobilized like-minded individuals to register and vote for conservative candidates. With nearly six million members, it became a powerful voting bloc during the 1980s and was credited for giving Ronald Reagan the winning edge in the 1980 election. One of the Moral Majority’s four founding principles was “support for Israel and Jewish people everywhere.” Most Jews don't like Christian Zionism and there are several reasons.
Reason 1: Christian anti-semitism ( pogroms, blood libel, inquisition etc.) some Jews feel because of all the harm Christians have placed on Jews in the past there is nothing they can do to make up for it. Jews also heavily support separation of church and state, something the christian right can't seem to grasp. Reason 2: evangelical proselytizing ( trying to convert Jews) doing this is highly frowned upon in the Jewish community. Jews have never had an obsession with converting people to Judaism, the whole going around and getting people to convert is a foreign concept to Judaism. Reason 3: Disagreements over domestic and political issues. It is commonly known that the majority of American Jews are liberal so there have been frequent disagreements especially over the social issues of today ( abortion, marriage equality, birth control, etc.) And the last reason, well really it's the number one reason but it takes longer to explain so I'm mentioning it last, so here goes.

Dispensationalist Christianity, an interpretive or narrative framework for understanding the overall flow of the Bible, teaches that Christianity did not replace Judaism, but that it restored lost elements of it. The dispensationalist view of the Bible is that the Old Testament is foreshadowing for what will occur in the New Testament and, at the end, Jesus returns to reign on Earth after an epic battle between good and evil. Israel plays a central role in the dispensationalist view of the end of the world. The establishment of Israel in 1948 was seen as a milestone to many dispensationalists on the path toward Jesus’ return. In their minds, now that the Jews again had regained their homeland, all Jews were able to return to Israel, just as had been prophesied in the Bible. As described in the Book of Revelation, there is an epic battle that will take place in Israel after it is reestablished Armaggedon in which it is prophesied that good will finally triumph over evil. However, in the process, two-thirds of the Jews in Israel die and the other third are converted to Christianity. Jesus then returns to Earth to rule for 1,000 years as king. You think that I am cheering for people that have some wacked out belief that there will be some battle between good and evil and I'll either end up dead or Christian? You think I am cheering for people that approve of bombing innocent woman and children? You think I am cheering for the destruction of people's properties and businesses? You think I am cheering about that poor child in Gaza who asked his father if he was going to die? You think I am cheering for the same people that want to deny me and millions of other women the right to choose? You think I am cheering for the same people that want to deny millions of Americans the right to marry who they love? You think I am cheering for the same people that think its o.k. to deny someone a service because of a religious belief that gay sex is icky? You think I am cheering for the same people that approve of boys being murdered while just being little kids and playing soccer at the beach? You also have pretty dumb logic: "Israel is overwhelmingly Jewish and Jews overwhelmingly support Israel. That is simply reality." So all Jews overwhelmingly support the violence that has been taking place? I gotta say this: America is overwhelmingly Christian and Christians overwhelmingly support America, that is simply a reality. Obama is a Christian man, so when he orders drone strikes that end up killing innocent people in the middle east in the name of fighting terrorism, do all Christians overwhelmingly support the murder of innocent people? Or is it just Jews in your bigoted little mind that have that problem? BB Netanyahu is a right wing nationalist quack, war and bloody conflict is what neo-cons like, you know that as well as I do. But hey you're a bigot so I can't blame you for not having any facts, most bigots don't. And you think no Jews have spoken out against it? Is your computer broken or are you just a dumb ass?
http://www.democracynow.org/2014/7/23/not_in_our_name_jewish_activists

http://obrag.org/?p=85584

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/social-media-campaign-promotes-peace-between-arabs-jews-1458479

http://forward.com/articles/202796/jews-march-in-new-york-rally-against-israel-war-in/?

http://www.jewishjournal.com/articles/item/jewish_groups_denounce_israel_during_friday_rallies

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/26/jewish-group-kaddish-gaza_n_5622021.html

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-28211088

http://www.lajewsforpeace.org/


http://jewishvoiceforpeace.org/

http://www.ajjp.org/

Now what was that about Jews not distancing themselves from right wing nuts? Come closer. What was that? Looks like these Jews and Muslims have done more than you will ever do. All you do is bitch and moan about Jews when you obviously don't know very much. I found a website where you talking points will be greatly appreciated, here's a link: https://www.stormfront.org/forum/ And yes, I went there.

[randome]

145. 'Dispensationalist Christianity'? WTF?

So many words categorizing and quantifying human nature like we're all a bunch of lab animals too stupid to think for ourselves. What is wrong with being kind to other people because...they're people??

You need none of this erudite, high-sounding language that pretends to put a scaffold around human behavior. No one needs it.

And as long as people adhere to organized religion as if it is composed of corporate bylaws and lists of 'dos' and 'don'ts' -as if paper is more important than people- then the world will forever be in this trap of one group of paper-pushers killing another.

'Dispensationalist Christianity'. My God. I know you think this all has some sort of intrinsic meaning. But try to see things from the point of view of those outside your grouping. From the point of view of someone who adheres to none of the organized religions, can you understand how ridiculous it all sounds?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]

[obama2terms]

147. I obviously wasn't the only one that had a problem with what this person was saying

Considering they deleted the post. When I explained Dispensationalist Christianity, I was explaining to the poster why so many right wingy Christians are attached to Israel. And weather you think Dispensationalist Christianity is nuts ( I do) or not, that is the main reason why so many right wing Christians are attached to Israel, and that's a fact weather you like it or not. What is going on right now is the product of two GOVERNMENTS that can't compromise,not the people themselves. And I will call out anyone who tries to blame Jews or Muslims as a whole for government conflicts. My personal view is that the U.S. should cut off all aid to Israel and any other countries participating in this. BB Netanyahu is a nationalist nut, and that has more do with his lack of compromise than religion does. So I guess as you say "I already have seen things from the point of view of those outside my grouping." For my views on aid money, I've already been called self hating or an anti-semite if they don't know I am Jewish. Look the poster I responded to said a lot of things that weren't true, and I had facts to back that up. Just because it doesn't conform to your views on religion doesn't make it wrong.

[randome]

149. Okay. If I misinterpreted what you said, my bad.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]All things in moderation, including moderation.[/center][/font][hr]

[Iggo]

27. Israel's a state right up until I have a probem with their foreign policy.

[Ken Burch]

33. No, it's still a state even then, and you have every right to call that state out.

But the issue is the actions of a government...not an ethnicity(or a set of ethnicities, in this case)or a set of religious traditions.

[Iggo]

36. Of course it's still a state.

I know that, and you know that.

[Ken Burch]

38. Not sure what your point is here. n/t.

[Iggo]

39. I can see that. (n/t)

[Ken Burch]

40. Are you going to clarify what you mean, then?

I'm not sure anybody else here follows your "drift" any more than I do.

Just SAY what you mean already.

[delrem]

41. But the state represents a single "people" or "nation", out of all the many.

You can't deny that is a factor, particularly w.r.t. the Nakba which created the problem of Gaza, which is 3/4 refugees.

It's just not right to condemn those who point that out as being "antisemitic". It's just not right.

[Ken Burch]

42. The issue is extreme nationalism, not the religion or ethnicity of the nationalists.

It would be just as horrible if Gaza were being bombed by a state led by Italian Catholics or Scottish Presbyterians or agnostics from Berkeley.
There is nothing that is happening here that is caused by Jewishness or by Judaism as a religion or culture. It's nationalism and territorial aggressiveness.

[delrem]

48. Yes, it would be the same if it were another race/ethnicity.

But in this case it *isn't*. This case is just what it is.

Nothing can negate the fact that Gaza is 75+% inhabited by refugees, who fled an ethnic cleansing that continues to this day.

You are incorrect to interpret my words as saying that what is happening is "caused by Jewishness". I didn't say that. In fact, you seem to be deliberately "misunderstanding" me, to paint me as antisemitic. That's the trope, that a critic is antisemitic to point out that Israel is explicitly and vehemently a Jewish state and that this fact is written in law, and it is demanded that Palestinians recognize and submit to this fact, and that non-Jewish Palestinians (Israel doesn't even recognize that there is such thing as 'Palestine' or a 'Palestinian') are victim of a Nakba. For 60 years.

I'm pointing out a fact about *the state*.

[Ken Burch]

50. I'm not trying to paint you as antisemitic.

I'm just pointing out that the fact you're pointing out isn't relevant. Yes, the state identifies itself in those terms...but that doesn't mean that that identification is the cause.

It could be any group dispossessing and/or oppressing any other group...that's what matters.

I condemn all the things you condemn...it's just that I reject the idea that the particular ethnic and/or religious(depending on how people interpret)identification of the state is the proximate cause.

The issue is nationalism and territory. We need to focus on that.

[delrem]

51. Of course the fact that Israel is a Jewish state is relevant.

It is central relevance, and it has to be corrected (the laws have to be revised) if there's to be any solution.

The issue in my mind: this "nationalism" or "racism" or "ethnicity" is written into FOUNDATIONAL LAW.
It isn't a passing fad.

[Maedhros]

103. You're deliberately missing Ken's point. [n/t]

[delrem]

133. No I'm not. nt

[Maedhros]

138. /ignore list. [n/t]

[delrem]

141. Byeeee! jeez. nt

[Peacetrain]

30. Totally agree.. Israel is a goverment entity .. Judaism is a religion

I posted along the same lines in a thread about French Jews being attacked for what was going on in Gaza

Attacking innocent Jewish believers, because of what a goverment has done hundreds of miles away is intolerable.. Holding a group of people in another country responsible for the actions of a goverment 100s of miles a away is intolerable..

It chills me to the bone to see the two conflated..

[Ken Burch]

43. To update August Bebel, we could call it "the anti-imperialism of fools". n/t.

[defacto7]

32. The fact! K & R

[stupidicus]

34. I've long likened the Zionists to our American Taliban/republicans that are almost all Xtians

starting with the way Zionism is a political movement manned by Jews, just as modern repubs are manned by xtians. Both like joining the political and the religious in policy matters, but that doesn't make either a religion. That's not to stay that they can't serve as a bad example of their alleged faith.

I suppose their could be some in their leadership ranks that are closeted atheists, Buddhists, etc.

As an atheist I think that all religions deserve the same treatment, as do their adherents. As long as they don't try to sell it to me, we get along just fine...lol

[ReRe]

35. Your top line

K&R

[fadedrose]

37. It needs to be said more, and in more places .. ..

I feel bad about this issue because I was friends with and also worked for good Jews. My son who was in high school, 30 years or so ago, was very good buddies with a Rabbi's son.

He slept over there, and Ethan once slept at our place...very nice kid.

Moved to different states - town died when the mills closed down....

[nomorenomore08]

44. Thank you. This nebulous blaming of "the Jews" for Israeli government policy has to stop.

[GitRDun]

45. Thank You

for bringing some sanity to the discussion. The attacks on Gaza are a tactical error made by the STATE of Israel, just as drone strikes by the US government are a tactical error. Why? They create more terrorists than they kill...that's it! Israel might have killed dozens of rocket launching Hamas soldiers, but over 100,000 children are in need of intensive therapy (according to the UN) related to the trauma of war. It's not very far a reach to say dozens of those 100,000+ children will become the next generation of rocket launchers...There is no ill will toward "the Jews". Just wish they would learn from US mistakes...

[WinkyDink]

46. Israel might disagree.

"In its Basic Laws, Israel defines itself as a Jewish and Democratic State; it is the world's only Jewish-majority state."[8]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel

http://www.jcpa.org/dje/articles2/isrjewstate.htm

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/Dec_of_Indep.html

http://www.torah.org/features/israelmatters/israel.html

[Maedhros]

106. There is a logical fallacy at play here.

A: Israel is a Jewish State
B: Israel is responsible for the atrocities in Gaza
therefore
C: All Jews are responsible for the atrocities in Gaza.

This is clearly false. A + B does not imply C.

[Maedhros]

116. The people responsible for the atrocities in Gaza

are those who ordered and carried out the attacks. I'd also say that those who vigorously and explicitly support Israel's actions in Gaza also bear some responsibility in proportion to the level and nature of their support. I count the United States Government among those responsible, since we have a long history of enabling Israeli aggression and preventing Palestine from the opportunity to reasonably petition for redress of their grievances.

The logical fallacy is obvious on its own merit.

[BainsBane]

47. And stop comparing this war to the Holocaust

For Christ's sake.

[delrem]

54. Most people aren't comparing this instance or that with "the Holocaust"

They are comparing the Nakba to the Nakba, the situation of the Palestinian people to the situation of the Palestinian people, and they are sick and tired of defenders of the status quo pointing at "the Holocaust" as sufficient reason to justify the whole kit and caboodle.
To be sure, when that justification is invoked, people will be repelled.

[BainsBane]

55. There is an OP on Schindler's List

with 200 recs. Tell me again how people aren't comparing it to the Holocaust?

[delrem]

56. I said what I said.

If you want to compare it to the Holocaust, as being not nearly so great a crime, and belittle the Nakba in that way, that's your privilege.

[BainsBane]

68. Actually I would say the Nakba is more similar to the Treaty of Velasco

Following the Battle of San Jacinto than the Holocaust. Yet I haven't heard much angst about that around here.
But then I don't consider the gassing and baking in ovens of 12 million people to be a minor detail.

I should repeat I do NOT support Israeli policy in Palestine, but then unlike you I don't see the very existence of the state of Israel as a "great crime." What I am object to here is the abuse of history that the parallel with the Holocaust employs and what that says about attitudes toward Jews.

[Scootaloo]

73. This is something I explained to another poster, BainsBane

The Holocaust is indelibly imprinted on the world's consciousness as "the great crime." It has become as much a symbolic thing as a historical event. The Treaty of Velasco, what's that? someone from Far Far Away™ might ask. But odds are, they know the Holocaust. They know it was a great crime against humanity involving mass murder of innocent people in an effort to purge them from the world. Thus, it becomes a point of reference that much of the world can recognize and call on. It has a global resonance that you don't get with "Wounded Knee," or "Béziers," or "Jallianwala Bagh," or "Al-Anfal," or "Dersim."

That is, it's a common, instantly-recognizable point of reference. Using it as such a reference may not be perfectly accurate - but for it to be perfectly accurate would sort of require the extermination of twelve million people, as you mentioned. It seems to me that the entire point of memorializing the holocaust, is not to isolate it as a singular incomparable event relevant to only one people in the history of mankind, but rather the complete opposite, an object lesson for the entire world to look at and understand the sorts of horrors, to see the patterns, and to stop them well before it reaches that scale.

because of course, the Holocaust did not begin with twelve million people and death camps. it began with one person and a bullet. Two people and some batons. Three people and handcuffs. Four people and some more bullets. Ten people. Twenty. Thirty-seven. a hundred. Two hundred. Three-fifty. Eight hundred and twenty six. one thousand. Two thousand and ten. It could be said to have begun well before anyone was murdered - the laws passed, the rabid nationalism, the incitement, the militarism, all rolling the Germans towards the seemingly inevitable, that first person with the bullet. or before him, the family with the smashed and burned home. The old man assaulted on the street?

The Holocaust was vastly more than just its final tally and mechanisms. Pretending it is that and nothing more and then locking it away in a vault as a solitary, eternally incomparable event, just helps ensure that more like it will happen. Worse, it enables the use of the Holocaust as justification and defense of other massacres, under the logic of "well it's not as bad as the holocaust, so it can't really be that bad, now can it?"

[mike_c]

57. thank you for saying it-- and criticism of Israel the state is NOT automatically anti-Semitism

eom

[Ken Burch]

93. Agreed. n/t.

[Roy Serohz]

60. DUly RECommended

No one should blame 16 million people (spanning the globe) for Bibi Nutty Yahoo and his thug regime.

[former9thward]

62. When Israel is held to a higher standard

than any other nation on earth then yes it is the Jews. And everyone who is not a Israel hater knows it.

[Scootaloo]

66. What higher standard is that?

We sanction Russia for occupation. We sanction north Korea for developing nuclear weapons outside of the NPT. we sanction and disarm Syria when civilian casualties get so high even the US can't stomach them. We've kept an embargo on Cuba for fifty years because their government favored a now-defunct state over us. We sanction and commit acts of war against Iran because they seek their rights within the NPT.

Tell me what penalties we have levied on Israel due to its actions against the Palestinians. or its illegal annexation of Golan. or its invasion of and attempted separation of Lebanon back in the 80's. Its use of other nation's passports to commit assassinations and acts of terrorism in third party nations. its internal deportations of Bedouin Arabs from towns it wants to - in the government's terms - "Judaicize." The use of DIME weapons and flechettes against civilian populations. The ongoing illegal annexation of the west bank. The mining of southern lebanon during Israel's 2000 withdraw.

I'm sure that the taxing weight of sanctions, military interventions, embargoes, UN peacekeeping occupations, mandatory disarmament, and imposition of no-fly zones across Israel is bringing that poor little country to its knees.

Right?

[Cali_Democrat]

69. Scootaloo....

I agree with much of what you said when it comes to Israel, but you gotta admit, the world doesn't get as outraged over things like the civil war in Syria or genocide in Sudan. There are also other conflicts in the world, but you don't see marches in the streets of Europe protesting those.

That's because the Israel/Palestine conflict is sexier.

So in that sense, that poster has a point. There's somewhat of a different standard.

[Scootaloo]

72. And you've gotta admit, no one demands that you support Sudan or Syria.

You've also got to admit the following.

- The US media is not filled to the brim with Sudanese and Syrian apologia, often parroted verbatim from press releases.
- US politicians don't fall over themselves to the point of embarrassment to shore up their "pro-Syria" or "pro-Sudan' scores.
- The US' ambassadors to the UN don't reflexively block to vote resolutions against Syria or Sudan.
- There are no demands to give "equal time" to Syrian or Sudanese officials whenever the victims of Khartoum or Damascus are brought up.
- Similarly when these places are mentioned, no one ever goes "yeah but what about Kyrgyzstan, huh?!"
- The United States does not fund and arm the armies of either Sudan or Syria.
- US-brokered "peace proposals" do not demand that the South Sudanese or Kurds of Syria self-subjugate to their oppressors.
- The US does not gaze upon the dead of Aleppo or Juba and insist that the reigning regimes "have a right to self-defense."

There is a different standard, because they are very different situations. And as i pointed out, Israel is held to a manifestly lower standard than either of these nations, which both labor under fairly dire sanctions and political isolation for what they do, while Israel is given nothing but reward after reward after reward.

If there is "more focus" on Israel, it is a product of Israel's own efforts over the last several decades. To hear Israel tell it, it's been poised on the razor edge of utter annihilation for well over fifty years now. Every day, a new existential crisis, for over half a century. With Israel's demand for center stage has come Israel's narrative as a solo performance for most of that time. For all this time, Israel's centrality was not a problem. It was welcomed. keep the focus on Israel, Israel's wants, Israel's needs, Israel's demands.

But now that opposing voices are being heard, now that the Palestinain narrative is gaining traction, suddenly everything has to be silenced. Shush, let's talk about something, anything else. Syria! Sri Lanka! Angola! Send a flotilla to Tibet, anything! These aren't demonstrations of concern for these places, but rather an attempt to deflect attention away before a Palestinian perspective could be heard. Very suddenly there's too much attention and it just happens to be at that very moment.

You know. Sort of like how there was too much attention on those flag-draped coffins coming home, why don't we talk about this school being built instead! or Mexicans, how about we talk about Mexicans instead of those coffins! Remember how if you raised a critical voice about the invasion of Iraq, you were a "nattering nabob of negativity," Cali_Democrat? It's the same deal.

[Douglas Carpenter]

77. thank you for that brief moment of reality therapy

[FarrenH]

84. Exactly

The degree of international public interest is proportional to the extent to which the most powerful economies on earth materially support the oppressive state in question and the extent to which their foreign policy is influenced by that state. The massive response we're seeing worldwide is no more or less than the worldwide response to Bush's illegal war in Iraq, because of that.

Personally I believe some of it is anti-Semitism, because that is a real and contemptible thing that remains at the fringes of Western political discourse and has grown in the Islamic world over the last century. Whether simplistic parsing of the actors in the conflict is to blame or not, anti-Semitism is one of the responses. But I think we can condemn anti-Semites who use anti-Israeli sentiment as a vehicle for their poison, without diminishing support for the rights of Palestinians.

In fact I think Hamas are bigoted scum. Fundamentalist theocrats always are. You can't just handwave away their rhetoric and founding principles and say they're a viable partner for peace. And I regret the fact that a large proportion of Palestinians support them. That doesn't diminish my feeling that the Palestinians that support them are victims of brutal and unjust oppression and dispossession. Their recent deal with Fatah enabled reasonable negotiations precisely because they effectively subordinated themselves to Fatah in negotiations, allowing a potential settlement that did not adhere to their principles, a position they arrived at because their political power was fraying at the edges. Which is why it was so dangerous to Bibi's aims. I think he's well aware that strengthening support for Hamas serves his ends.

Which is why I think an international peacekeeping force, under a Chapter VII resolution that can basically force it on Netenyahu's government, in both Gaza and the West Bank, is needed to provide the conditions for negotiating a just settlement. A peacekeeping force that first Arafat, now Abbas, have begged for and both Hamas and Israel have resisted fiercely. Of course a Chapter VII resolution would entail convincing the USA not to veto in the UNSC and that means engineering a major shift in the opinions of Americans and weakening the powerful lobby group that Mearsheimer and Walt correctly identified as having excessive influence on US ME policy.

[m-lekktor]

86. excellent post. nt

[Puzzledtraveller]

67. I agree.

I think it needs to be called out. The article below illustrates the trend well I believe. It is from 2009 but I believe it is applicable today and possible more so as I believe it has been on the rise.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/valerie-tarico/sophisticated-liberal-jew_b_191135.html

[Puzzledtraveller]

64. K&R

[Cali_Democrat]

70. Agree

It stinks to see people go after Jews for the actions of Israel.



I hate it.

[roody]

71. Thank you.

[intaglio]

78. K&R

[Fla Dem]

81. Point well made, and all Catholics are not the Catholic Church. nt

[Cartoonist]

85. I wonder

do members still tithe?

[Fla Dem]

89. You give what you can, no forced donations. Never heard of tithing in the CC. nt

[randome]

90. I think you're referring to Baptists but it's understandable to be confused.

They're all looney cults.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]The night is always young. It's never too late.[/center][/font][hr]

[Cartoonist]

105. Definitely RC

It's an unnumbered commandment. And there's nothing voluntary about a collection plate thrust under the nose.

[cpwm17]

82. Collective guilt is always a bad thing

It is the cause of so much evil in this world.

Supporters of Israel also do nobody any good by declaring Israel a Jewish state and accusing critics of Israel of being anti-Semitic.

[randome]

83. So if one says 'Fuck Israel', it's not anti-Semitic, right?

Just want to be sure.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]The night is always young. It's never too late.[/center][/font][hr]

[snagglepuss]

87. Yet critics of Israel are smeared as anti-semites. You can't have it both ways.

[Ken Burch]

92. And they shouldn't be smeared with that label. Agreed. n/t.

[DFW]

94. Nor is Rick Perry "Texas"

But that doesn't stop some from lumping us all together, too. More convenient, doncha know?

[Ken Burch]

95. As to "doncha know"...Alaska ain't Sarah Palin, either, buddy.

I take your point, and back at ya.

(And I call on the U.S. to stop vetoing all anti-Palin and anti-Perry resolutions at the U.N.)

[DFW]

96. I never heard of any anti-Palin or anti-Perry resolutions at the UN

But if I had, I would have urged out delegation to at least abstain!

As for Palin, I think the only Alaskans left who like her got a cut of whatever slush money she was spreading around while in office.

[Rapillion]

97. Knocking down a straw man . . .

. . . is always curious maneuver.

[Ken Burch]

98. No straw man at all.

I'm addressing a conflation made by a significant number of people in this debate...some out of ignorance or bigotry, others out of a desire to silence debate.

[Rapillion]

100. Sure, whatever you say

A pogrom has killed over 1,000 Palestinians, greatly worsening an already stifling siege, and you are concerned with the mirage of a conflation between "Jewish" and "Israeli" on a message board.

[Ken Burch]

109. I'm just as outraged by the pogrom as you are.

But the distinction between "Israeli" and "Jewish" matters. You can't blame every Jewish person in the world for the pogrom any more than you can fairly blame every Gazan for the actions of Hamas.

Also, it hurts the Gaza solidarity movement every time that distinction isn't made.

[Rapillion]

127. Rabbi Lerner

Max Blumenthal, Henry Seligman and many others can never be blamed. These men are beacons of justice. But just as many have supported Israel and created a climate of repression and fear and injustice. Those people are culpable and they deserve no quarter. Your distinction absolves them of their moral failings. It perpetuates the occupation and assures future pogroms.

[Maedhros]

113. It's about keeping our eye on the ball.

Making the debate about "Jews" derails the conversation into accusations and denials of anti-semitism.

Clearly separating the actions of the Israeli government from the Jewish religion allows the debate to remain focused on the situation in Gaza.

[Rapillion]

126. Really?

But to what extent is Jewish-American unswerving support for Israel responsible for this abomination of justice?

[Maedhros]

142. Make no bones about it - the United States Government bears a significant share of responsibilty

for Israel's previous and ongoing atrocities in Palestine. Our government provides Israel with the means to continue its oppression of the Palestinians and the political cover in the UN to allow them to avoid accountability for their actions.

That said, the point of this OP is that the world community of 16 million Jews does not bear collective guilt for the actions of Israel. As was said above, to do so would be just as wrong as assigning collective guilt to all inhabitants of Gaza for the actions of Hamas.

[Rapillion]

146. And why does our government give so much support?

Mostly, because many in the American Jewish community demand it.

I agree with your statement that the world community of Jews should not bear collective guilt. But the facilitators of Zionism - from William Kristol to Chuck Schumer - should be held accountable for their Israeli chauvinism. It has led to this.

[Maedhros]

150. Zionist Christians in America push hard for pro-Israeli policy. [n/t]

[Rapillion]

151. True but . . .

That is a recent phenomenon. American policy has tilted heavily toward Israel for as long as it has existed. Evangelicals have made that worse.

You cannot absolve many American Jewish leaders for creating, fostering and tolerating the conditions that have led to the Great Gaza Pogrom.

[Rhiannon12866]

152. Well said, thanks!

And this terrible violence also has to be a nightmare for the Israeli people.

[tularetom]

104. If American Muslims were as vocal in their support for Islamic terrorism

as American Jews are for Israeli war crimes, they'd all be deported (or in Gitmo).

I have no problem distinguishing between "Israel" and "the Jews", it's often "the Jews" who would blur that distinction. At least here in the US.

[Dragonfli]

121. I suppose it depends on who you know and where you may be, but my experience differs

I know many Jews, practicing and non-practicing, none that I talk to support this attack, some are even afraid and/or ashamed to talk about it at all fearing they will be linked to Likud because of their ethnicity alone, the OP makes a very important point.

To say "Jews" are doing this is like saying "Christians" Destroyed Iraq, and to say all Israelis are Likud is like saying all Palestinians are Hamas. It is just wrong.

The Israeli leadership should be facing war crime charges as should nearly the entire Bush administration, but unfortunately, both here and there, the rule of law does not apply to people in power or people of great wealth. The rule of law barely even exists anymore sad to say.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

110. "If you oppose what the Israeli government is doing, it's bullshit to blame Jews as a group"

It's ALSO bullshit to accuse someone of hating Jews because they oppose what the government of Israel is doing.

[Ken Burch]

112. Which I wasn't doing. n/t.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

123. And what's funny is you felt you had to clarify that.

[Ken Burch]

124. I felt I had to clarify because there had been a misunderstanding, that's all. n/t.

This isn't a "don't criticize the Israeli government" thread.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

128. I know. And again, what's funny is you felt you had to clarify that....

Anytime Israel is discussed there's the risk of someone coming in like this:

[timdog44]

114. Just curious

How can I say this same thing on another thread and get belittled for it and here, you are the OPer and say want in fact is true. Me thinks I ran up against a Zionist.

[Ken Burch]

117. That, and different standards for different parts of DU. n/t.

[timdog44]

120. Thanks.

I am not the most sophisticated poster. I like what you say.

[timdog44]

119. More

I have always made the distinction, Israel is for Israelis. Jews are a religious order and live anywhere. Zionist are not ultraJewish but ultraIsraeli. I believe antiSemitism has been coopted by them so they do not have to acknowledge antiIsraeli, and by that I mean the Israeli government. It is a race card used to quiet arguments.

[Ken Burch]

125. All of that is true...and, in some ways, there's a weirdly symbiotic relationship.

Zionism(or at least the extreme right-wing and ethnic/religious supremacist form of it practiced by Likud and other Revisionist Zionists)NEEDS antisemitism to continue to exist, and to get worse if possible. A world without antisemitism would be a world where it would be much more difficult to justify the brow-beating tactics Netanyahu & Co. use to silence discussion and to demand continued U.S. military assistance.

[bunnies]

122. Everybody gets lumped in. Either by nationality or religion or class.

No broad brush is fair. Just sayin.

[ann---]

129. I agree

and so do the Jews in my family. However, it is the Jews in Israel's government that do NOT distinguish between Hamas and the Palestinianswho are not militants. So, I don't think Jews can reasonably expect people to automatically distinguish them from the Israelis, especially since the American media is all lopsided toward Israel and our government votes unanimously to support Israel's genocide in the Palestinian Holocaust.

Obama's silence about Bibi Yahoo lying when he said Hamas killed those three teens (which was his justification for the genocide in Gaza) is deafening. I'm SO disappointed in him.

[Ken Burch]

137. All extremely valid points. Great post. n/t.