If Americans Knew - What Every American needs to know about Israel/Palestine

[Fred Sanders]

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/maps.html

...........................

In 1947, the United Nations partitioned Historic Palestine, giving 55% to the Jewish population and 45% to the Palestinian population. The indigenous Palestinians rejected the division of the land on which they had lived and farmed for centuries.

At the time of partition, the Jewish population owned less than 6% of Palestine.

............................

1948 Israel, West Bank, and Gaza Strip


Israel, West Bank, and Gaza
source: Palestine Center

In 1948 Israel declared its "independence," but chose not to name its borders (Israel may be the only nation in the world with undeclared borders). Following its founding war of 1947-49 Israel came into existence on 78 percent of Palestine, a percentage it has steadily increased in subsequent years, a process that continues today.

.................................

Israeli Settlements on Palestinian and Syrian Land


Israeli Settlements on the Palestinian West Bank and Gaza Strip and in the Syrian Golan Heights (as of 1996).
source: UN

Following the 1967 war, Israel began establishing numerous settlements, or illegal housing developments for Jewish Israelis only on stolen Palestinian land (colonies). There are now thousands of these settlements throughout the West Bank and Gaza, as well as numerous settlements in the Syrian Golan Heights.

Settlements are one of the major blockages to a peaceful and just resolution to Israel’s conflict with the Palestinians and other Arabs. The "roadmap" to peace calls on Israel to dismantle these settlements and to return the land to the rightful owners. Unfortunately, Israel continues to expand existing settlements and to build new ones.

Israeli settlers, who are known for their Jewish fundamentalism and desire to take the rest of Palestine (and perhaps even parts of other Arab lands) for Israel, usually carry large guns. They travel on specially built “bypass roads,” that now crisscross the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Palestinians are not allowed to use these roads.

(Wonderfully clear UN map showing the invasion of the occupied lands of Palestine, a virtual takeover as Palestinians are pushed into the Gaza Strip of land, Israel's massive family penitentiary, America has got no prison like it. Note the map is 18 years outdated, the number of settlements as skyrocketed since, I will try to find an updated map from a reliable source)


UPDATE: Detailed 2006 map:


.......................

And of course the map that explains most of the "why", in a single glance and which the American media will never, ever show:



Source - worldliteraturetoday.org

.....................


Slow motion genocide, what else can you call it?

[hack89]

1. So what borders should Israel be restricted to?

where would you draw them?

[Fred Sanders]

3. As per the original UN borders.

[hack89]

6. The UN says the 1967 borders are the starting point for negotiations

what is wrong with those?

[Fred Sanders]

7. I agree. But why reinvent the wheel? There is already a comprehensive plan...adopt it. No further

talks are required. Sit down and sign it.

[hack89]

9. The original plan got blown up in a couple of wars

Last edited Mon Jul 28, 2014, 04:22 PM - Edit history (1)

the 1967 borders are the plan right now.

[Fred Sanders]

14. Not so fast, sir:

"The Roadmap for peace or road map for peace was a plan to resolve the Israeli–Palestinian conflict proposed by the Quartet on the Middle East: the United States, the European Union, Russia and the United Nations. The principles of the plan, originally drafted by U.S. Foreign Service Officer Donald Blome, were first outlined by U.S. President George W. Bush in a speech on 24 June 2002, in which he called for an independent Palestinian state living side by side with Israel in peace.[1][2] A draft version from the Bush administration was published as early as 14 November 2002. The final text was released on 30 April 2003. The process reached a deadlock early in phase I and the plan was never implemented."

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_map_for_peace

The Phases of Peace

Phase I (finished as early as May 2003): Mutual recognition; an immediate and unconditional ceasefire to end armed activity and all acts of violence against Israelis anywhere; Palestinian political-institutional reform; Palestinian elections; Israeli withdrawal to the positions of 28 September 2000 (begin of Second Intifada; the plan does not speak of any further withdrawal). Israeli refrain from deportations, attacks on civilians, demolition and destruction, etc.; reopen Palestinian institutions in East Jerusalem; improve humanitarian situation, full implementation Bertini report, easing movement; freeze on settlement expansion and dismantling of settlement outposts built since 2001.
Phase II (June–December 2003): International Conference to support Palestinian economic recovery and launch a process, leading to establishment of an independent Palestinian state with provisional borders; revival of multilateral engagement on issues including regional water resources, environment, economic development, refugees, and arms control issues; Arab states restore pre-intifada links to Israel (trade offices, etc.).
Phase III (2004–2005): second international conference; permanent status agreement and end of conflict; agreement on final borders, clarification of the highly controversial question of the fate of Jerusalem, refugees and settlements; Arab state to agree to peace deals with Israel.

[Fred Sanders]

16. I think you need to read my post, just above, and restate your position.

[hack89]

44. What comprehensive plan are you referring to?

Perhaps I misunderstood ypu.

[Scootaloo]

23. See, I can tell by your phrasing you're clueless

The "1967 armistice"? Perhaps you mean the 1949 armistice lines, which held until 1967, and are often referred to by the erroneous moniker "the 1967 (i.e., pre-war) border" - they're not borders of course, not then and not now.

[Scootaloo]

49. Oh my lord.

There is no "67 border." a border is a national boundary. Israel's border, declared and set in 1948, is well behind the armistice lines - lines that were formed in 1949 with the cease-fire of the Arab-Israeli war. An armistice line is not a border, it is simply a demarcation of military control. This line lasted until 1967, as I explained.

Seriously, words have meanings. Use them according to those meanings.

Now, you will see downthread that yes indeed, Palestine is perfectly willing to use the Armistice line as the border as part of a peace treaty. so why hasn't such a treaty been forthcoming? Well... because israel wants all of Jerusalem. because Israel wants large chunks of the west Bank. because israel wants the Jordan Valley. because israel wants Gaza to be negotiated separately. because israel wants to maintain its occupation of the west bank for another 40 years even after a peace treaty is signed.

Because israel does not want a peace treaty, basically. Why would it, when it has free reign to just take as it pleases with no consequences? Who needs a treaty when the plunder is free?

[Voice for Peace]

96. dear scootaloo

Counter-productive gratuitous insult which serves to
alienate, not to educate:

"See, I can tell by your phrasing you're clueless"

[Comrade Grumpy]

114. Some are uneducatable. But they can be burned.

[Hippo_Tron]

115. No, Netanyahu and Likud do not want a peace treaty

Israel has negotiated several times and offered to concede on the vast majority of those points at one time or another. Their current nutbag right wing leadership does not want to make concessions and thus does not want peace. But please don't equate the entire state with its current leaders.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

12. negotiations ... ?

so, that is what we are watching take place.

I had no idea.

really.

Laughing Ironically,

TA

[hack89]

13. I am only pointing out the UN's position on Israel's borders. nt

[HERVEPA]

4. The poster would probably restrict them to an island in the Mediterranean.

And as an FYI, I hate all the expansion of the settlements done during Netanyahu's "reign", and much of the previous also.
The ultra-Orthodox in most of those settlement are as much hate-monger as Hamas is.

[Scootaloo]

11. The borders Israel declared to the world in 1948, perhaps?

http://www.trumanlibrary.org/whistlestop/study_collections/israel/large/documents/newPDF/49.pdf

If Israel desires territory beyond that which it claimed when it declared independence, then that needs to be negotiated for with the people whose territory it is.

Interestingly, Palestine has shown it's quite willing to cede all territory behind the armistice line to Israel, in exchange for a peace treaty. That's about a third of Palestine's legal territory.

[Calista241]

15. Those negotiations already took place.

There are consequences to starting and then losing a war or two.

[Scootaloo]

18. No in fact they haven't

And losing a war does not mean the winner gets to carve what it wants out of you. Welcome to international law, it applies to Israel too.

[Calista241]

27. Since the beginning of human civilization, the winner of a war either gets territory

Or some other concession from the loser. Now you can argue that the territory wasn't the Jordanians, Syrians, or Egyptians to give. But they all did fight a war, and as a result of losing, they ceded territory to Israel.

[Scootaloo]

30. "Might Makes Right" is a barbarism that has been rightly abandoned in the civilized world

You cannot roll over someone and simply lay claim to their stuff, whether it be wealth, people, or territory. That's just not how it works, and it hasn't worked that way for some time.

Territorial concessions come through treaties. And no, the treaties are often not fair - ask Mexico - but as pertinant to the I/P conflict, there is no treaty. That's what all these "peace talks" have been about for the last 20 years, formulating a treaty.

As there is no treaty, there is no formal, legal concession of territory to Israel. That means that Israel's borders are right where it declared them in 1948 - and those borders declared match the partition lines suggested by the UN in November the year before.

I find it bizarre that the supporters of Israel, of all states on the planet, are invariably first in line to argue that the strong have a right to dominate, kill, and loot from the weak as they please.

[snagglepuss]

46. Hear. Hear. This post deserve its own thread because

you have hit the nail on its head.

[Calista241]

51. There ARE treaties.

Both Egypt and Jordan have signed peace treaties with Israel, and THEY were two main participants in the war against Israel.

And might makes right is still the law of the world. Just look at Syria, ISIS and the Ukraine / Russia conflict to see it in action.

You and I can call it barbaric and obsolete all we want, but that doesn't change reality.

[Scootaloo]

53. Wow, really? Putting Israel in the same basket as ISIS and Russia, huh? As DEFENSE of Israel?

I must say, I'm fucking staggered by that.

Yes, Egypt and Jordan have signed peace treaties with Israel,. In neither case are Palestinian territories ceded to Israel (Or Egyptian or Jordanian territories, for that matter). First, Egypt and Jordan can't pawn off someone else's territory anyway, but second and importantly, again, it's simply not in the treaties, regardless.

And there is no treaty between Israel and Palestine right now. So nothing beyond Israel's border - set in 1948 - belongs to Israel. Period.

[Calista241]

57. There has NEVER been a state of Palestine.

Both Jordan and Egypt signed peace agreements that agreed on borders after Israel occupied the 1967 lines. Case closed.

The Palestinians were for the most part citizens / residents of Jordan at that time. Did Jordan have the right to negotiate on behalf of the Palestinians?

And I never compared Israel to ISIS etc. I used the comparison to illustrate a fact about today's world in the might still does make right.

[bravenak]

55. You cannot take land like that through warfare anymore.

That's one of the benefits of living in our modern world. How many years before Israel loses support from America? My generation doesn't skew in favor of Israel. In twenty years we will be the leaders of the free world. This might makes right attitude is a turn off for us. If we don't support Israel in twenty years , and the Arab nations around them decide to take the land from them, I take it you will say something similar at that time, correct? You'll be just fine with other nations occupying all of Israel, blockading them, and bombing them if they resist, right? I know I'm not that cruel. I'd still be calling for a peace negotiation and denouncing the people dropping bombs on Tel Aviv.

[EX500rider]

59. Unless you are Russia and want the Crimea?

[bravenak]

62. Yes, I see that's working out splendidly.

The world is so pleased that they are giving Putin standing ovations and no criticism. Oh, except for the sanctions and denouncement. And the plane getting shot out of the sky.

[Aerows]

92. And pointing this out

right on the heels of "how dare you criticize Israel" is met with outrage.

[bravenak]

94. It's getting so crazy.

The constant spin is giving me the headache.

[Hippo_Tron]

109. Russia isn't a democracy

If Israel wants to sink to the moral level of Russia, it should by all means occupy the West Bank and Gaza for another half century. But I'd much rather it continue as a true democracy by ending the occupation.

[Hippo_Tron]

71. Nope, World War II changed that

If you want to be a part of the civilized world, you don't get to have colonies anymore. You can occupy them for a period of time and leave them with a democratically elected government, or you can annex them and give the people living there the same rights as the rest of your citizens.

Israel had good reasons for occupying Gaza and the West Bank in 1967. They haven't had good reasons to continue occupying them for almost half a century.

[Calista241]

86. China, the USA, Russia.

Three nuclear superpowers that all have occupied a country or people against their will in the last 10 years. In fact, all three of those counties have done it multiple times in the last 20 years.

USA - Iraq and Afghanistan
Russia - Crimea and eastern Ukraine
China - Hong Kong, Tibet, some islands Japan claims, and perhaps Taiwan in the future

That's not even counting Turkey, Syria, Iraq, Iran, and 1/2 of fucking Africa. It even happens in Europe in the former Yugoslavia. Spain has a bunch of issues with the Basque region. England fought for years against the Irish.

[Hippo_Tron]

110. We've left Iraq and we're leaving Afghanistan (not that those were shining examples of morality)

Again, there's a difference between occupying a country for a period of time and leaving and occupying a country indefinitely. Israel has occupied the West Bank and Gaza for ALMOST 50 YEARS. There has been more than adequate time to set up a friendly Palestinian government and leave, but they took 2 decades longer than necessary to even seriously consider Palestinian sovereignty. And the current Prime Minister has done everything in his power to oppose anyone, even in his own party, who has tried to take steps towards Palestinian statehood.

Furthermore, the vast majority of the nations you list are not democracies and we hardly treat them as part of the civilized world. If Israel wants to stoop to the level of Russia, then by all means it can. But I'd much rather see it be a legitimate democracy.

Hong Kong isn't occupied, btw.

[Spider Jerusalem]

111. Not since WWII.

Under current international law right of conquest is not recognised as valid.

[RedFury]

108. Big problem

What with Israel's deliberate overtake of the West Bank. The way it's set-up now, there are walls, roads and illegal settlements all over the place there which make it almost impossible to unify. And I really, really doubt Israel would give-up anything they've stolen and/or set-up to favor them.

Other than that, the whole Gaza situation is beyond absurd. Seems clear to me that if the US & Israel agreed, Egypt -- a bought and paid for whore of the US $, would shut down their side of the tunnels (don't think for a minute the military in Egypt give much of a shit about the fate of Gaza; money talks...), thus really depriving Palestinians the ability to even make their "pocket rockets" -- remember the blockade, they are land-locked The reason they don't do so is because their "security" concerns are minimal to say the least. And this way, they can plow indiscriminately into Gaza pretty much when they want to -- citing "self-defense."

Think about it, no tunnels, no firecrackers from Gaza. So why are the Israelis hell-bent on destroying The Strip? Seems pretty clear to me.

Then again, I am neither American nor like the power AIPAC has over US foreign policy.

[Hippo_Tron]

112. Sharon forced settlers out of Gaza, he may well have done the same in the West Bank

Netanyahu and the nutjob right will never give up enough of the West Bank to get a deal with he Palestinians, but that doesn't mean that Israel won't some day.

[grahamhgreen]

100. Texas!

[Larkspur]

2. If Americans Knew web site is an excellent resource

[HERVEPA]

10. Absolutely. Used as a source on such wonderful websites as this one:

https://www.stormfront.org/forum/t351443/

[stranger81]

17. Do we really have to repeat this whole charade?

Somebody's begging for a DU time-out . . . .

[atreides1]

21. Does that make it any less true?

The maps are accurate, aren't they...or did someone just make them up?

[Rhinodawg]

28. Great site...

If you believe the holocaust was a charade cooked up by the Jews themselves.

A Stormfront favorite becomes discourse.

Seriously ?

Hey , someone post the PROTOCOLS OF elders of Zion.

That will good discussion also.

[Fred Sanders]

31. So you want to play the smear game? Can you refute any of the maps? Or anything said by me or

the site, omitting obvious opinion of which I am very fond if the facts are clear?

Because if you can I will self delete my thread.

And if you can not, I suggest you ask a couple of fellow apologists who post here regularly for advice.

[leftynyc]

32. Poster is pointing out

what other gems are on the site you chose as your source. I don't think it helps to get huffy about it.

[Fred Sanders]

33. Lot of gems on this site too, some are good some are bad, I get the point, it means nothing, and

you should know that "sounding huffy" is the default position on comment boards.

[leftynyc]

40. Did you know they

engage in holocaust denial there before you brought them to our attention?

[Rhinodawg]

41. That's not a secret to anyone.

That's their joy of life.

[snagglepuss]

48. You'e just shooting the messenger. The fact remains is that maps speak

the truth regardless of where they are posted.

[leftynyc]

54. I'm still waiting for an answer

Are you seriously going to claim it's perfectly okay for DU to use a source that engages in holocaust denial as a source for ANYTHING?

[snagglepuss]

58. If you have information that the maps are

factually incorrect then you would have a valid complaint but as it stands your complaint is a red herring.

[oberliner]

85. Regarding the maps

The first map uses the terms "Jewish land" and "Palestinian land" - what does this even mean? It was actually all under British rule at that time.

The second map (which switches to "Israel land" instead of "Jewish land&quot represents a UN plan that was never actually implemented. So it's a reality that never existed.

In the third map, the area of the West Bank labeled Palestine was actually occupied by Jordan. No attempt was made to create an independent Palestinian state at that time.

The fourth map, I guess, purports to show how the Israeli settlements cut up the Palestinian controlled areas in the West Bank. But why was there no attempt to show the fact that all of it was controlled by Jordan previously? (Nor Britain even earlier for that matter).

Also there are well over a million Palestinians living in the "white" area labeled as Israel. It seems like it would be self-evident to anyone that the maps are ridiculous propaganda pieces with no bearing on reality.

I mean just the fact alone that the second map is based on a plan that never was implemented ought to be enough (along with the "Jewish land vs. Palestinian land" construct of the first map).

[Fred Sanders]

88. The UN maps are propaganda, you don't say? No source will please you or disturb your set in concrete

views, that you have told me and nothing else.

[leftynyc]

98. I guess next I can expect

to see stormfront, free republic, breitbart as sources from now on. How special.

[Rhinodawg]

36. Fellow apologists, huh ?

I guess anyone who doesn't support ifamricansknew and it's sister Stormfront , must be too evil or too stupid to complain.

My apologies..I hope to do better in the future.

Thx.

[Fred Sanders]

69. "Too evil or too stupid.....", I could not have said it better myself.

[Mosby]

72. that second map has been debunked hundreds of times

its nothing more than propaganda.

and if americans knew is a antisemitic hate site, it was banned at du2.

http://archive.adl.org/israel/anti_israel/alison_weir/anti-semitism.html?m_flipmode=3

http://ifamericansknewalisonweir.com/

[Fred Sanders]

89. The ADL, being a propaganda site, attacks another accused propaganda site, the circle is closed.

[Mosby]

95. The ADL has been fighting bigotry for 101 years.

When did the truth become propaganda?

[Larkspur]

35. Typical guilt by association smear used by the "Israel can do no wrong" mob

Alison Weir, founder of If America Knew,

Drawing on her background as both a civil rights activist and Peace Corps volunteer and the child of a military family, Weir has striven to provide a clear-sighted view of the issue that is free of partisan perspectives or preconceptions and that relies exclusively on facts-based analysis. She believes that open-minded examination of all available evidence, informed by universal principles of human rights, self-determination and justice for all people, is the only way to truly understand the conflict. Thus exposing the truth is, she believes, the best and only hope for justice and, therefore, peace for Palestinians, Israelis, Americans, and indeed the world.

She sure doesn't sound like a neo-Nazi to me. But the "Israel can do no wrong" mob use the same kind of bullying tactics that all totalitarian groups use.

[sabrina 1]

39. Why do you go to that despicable hate site? I would not click on it if you paid me. Shameful to

see it linked to here of all places. You are talking to adult, intelligent people here, it would be better to not try to use kindergarten tactics when attempting to make a point. Which is why your point, whatever it was, is a massive failure.

[Rhinodawg]

47. Take it easy...

LOOK...It's not like it's as bad as the PROTOCOLS...

Well, that's not true....sorry.

[ColesCountyDem]

82. Linking to stormfront.org? Seriously?

You do realize that this is Democratic Underground, a place for liberals and progressives. What information could a neo-Nazi, 'white power' website contain that couldn't be found elsewhere?

Excuse me now, while I go throw up!

[Fred Sanders]

90. Be my guest, if making stuff up does that to you.

[ColesCountyDem]

91. So, you're saying that stormfront.org is NOT a neo-Nazi, 'white power' website?

[Aerows]

93. That's a new low

Ugly, ugly implication.

[ColesCountyDem]

97. Are you serious? Have you even read their homepage?

I can't believe posters HERE are defending stormfront.org! If you're defending them, then your thinking is SERIOUSLY messed up!

[Maedhros]

5. And yet all we hear is rhetoric about how the very existence of Israel is threatened

when the evidence shows that the existence of Palestine is not only threatened but actively being eroded while Israel thrives.

[Fred Sanders]

8. Palestine is being driven into the sea, maps don't lie.

[Maedhros]

19. But AIPAC does. [n/t]

[malaise]

22. And it is that simple

This is genocide and land theft on steroids and then they turn around and call the victims terrorists.

I've had enough.

[sadoldgirl]

20. Pardon my ignorance,

but what are regions in gray denoting?

[Fred Sanders]

25. If you mean the loss of land map, that was the 1947 UN plan borders, Israel was borne........it

should have been born in Germany, the ones responsible for the Holocaust. Palestinians had nothing to do with it as they farmed their lands as they had for thousands of years before the Western guilt trip landed on them.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

34. agreed

[JI7]

52. after the holocaust i can understand why they would have preferred to go some other place

[La Lioness Priyanka]

24. in terms of race, europeans committed the genocide of the jewish people

but oddly brown people paid the price in land and resources for it.

[Fred Sanders]

26. They never knew what hit them, until the missiles and bombs hit them and drove them away.

[RandiFan1290]

29. Checkpoint - Israel Defence Forces Documentary

[Jefferson23]

37. Hi Fred, this website is tainted goods. There are so many legitimate ones. Let me put it this way,

many excellent academics that are highly critical of Israeli policy do not ever reference her nor
support her and for good reason. Not that I have ever read..just an fyi.

[Fred Sanders]

64. OK, understood, but the facts related seem to be accurate, it is an account worth telling, based on

the facts, no matter the reputation.

Like Rand Paul, at times.

[Rhinodawg]

67. Fred...ifamricansknew is a hate site.

Why not just self delete.

[Jefferson23]

73. I would delete the thread, that is how off base Alison Weir is to me..she carries ugly intent.

Juan Cole has done an OP recently, and includes maps. I agree, the Palestinian story needs
to be represented, and often it is not..yet just not through an anti-semitic person, like Weir.

Best regards.

[Fred Sanders]

75. My knowledge of her is only the article I linked to....I stand by the article. It was a top Google

hit in my research, nothing more.

[Jefferson23]

77. Ok, that is your call. n/t

[Fred Sanders]

79. OK, thanks. I really do get where you are coming from, but I do not have the patience to go down

all the rabbit holes in the internet and go off on tangents in an OP, better leave that to others.

[Jefferson23]

81. I understand that, and why I posted about the website..we really do not want to lend

any legitimacy to her website..that is what I was trying to convey.

The Map: A Palestinian Nation Thwarted & Speaking Truth to Power

http://www.juancole.com/2014/07/palestinian-thwarted-speaking.html

[Fred Sanders]

80. Also found this piece on her, since you piqued my curiosity, any insight?

"Alison Weir's new book has been called 'a game changer' and 'prodigiously documented.' This quick read (260 pages) delves into history that has been neglected, illuminating the real reasons the U.S. backed the creation of Israel.

Read a review by former U.S. Senator James Abourezk.

Buy the book on Amazon.com."

[Jefferson23]

83. I have no explanation why he endorsed it but keep in mind, he is not an academic

who has studied the conflict. He may very well have good intentions, but that is a bad
call on his part, imo.

[sadoldgirl]

38. I just went back to the white/ green/ gray map, and

I cannot understand how the UN made such a distribution. None of the Palestinian land parts are continuing into each other. This seems to me was just asking for trouble. Why not one country in the South, and the other one in the North?

[AtheistCrusader]

43. Don't forget what started this round of violence. The world had the audacity to recognize the palest

inian government.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/06/world/middleeast/new-israeli-settlement-plans-draw-swift-condemnation.html?_r=0

This happens every time. Settlements expand, Hamas fires weapons back. Every time. They were provoked, and responded predictably.
That expansion of the settlements was a calculated response to international recognition of their government.

That was a low blow, and Israel cannot just pretend these acts don't have consequences.

[KansDem]

45. Thanks for this information

It helps put this mess into perspective

[snagglepuss]

50. k and r

[Swede Atlanta]

56. We need to immediately terminate all military assistance to Israel including the "shields"....

from there we stop aiding and abetting crimes against humanity by funding the Israeli state. Only when Israel realizes it is a two-bit little nothing country surrounded by enemies will it accept its position.

It must negotiate in good faith or be annihilated. Do they want another Holocaust? I think Bibi needs to think long and hard about his "legacy" if he wants to be known as the boy who trumpeted the second Holocaust.

For you apologists, go ahead and apologize. Israel is now no better than any other dictatorial state. They are fueled by hatred.

I fully support Israel's right to exist as a home for the Jews and to defend themselves but they need to fund this themselves and not on the backs of American taxpayers.

What do we get in return? They might share some intelligence but other than that Israel only cares about Israel. When we say they need to stop settlements they continue. When we ask them to use restraint they bomb and kill more civilians.

We are Israel's bitch and I'm tired of it. Fuck you Bibi and the ass you rode in on.

[toby jo]

60. Great map, Fred. I knew they were losing land, but not on that scale.

I've always felt the Jewish people left that land over the course of centuries and did pretty well for themselves across the globe. If you leave a place of your own free will stand up and own that decision. You should be happy to get even a grain of it back.

History is full of migrating people. If things don't go well you just don't deserve other people's land.

[Fred Sanders]

65. The Chosen People wanted that land real bad, it is religion that dictated this madness, as usual.

[cbdo2007]

61. I don't mean to sound like an a$$hole....but why should we care?

Like it usually just sounds like one side whining about the other side and neither side will ever be happy so to the average American it just sounds like Coke vs Pepsi.

I do realize I'm being flippant about it, but I honestly don't care as much as the news tells me I should care.

[ProgressiveJarhead]

63. Genocide?

Please. I don't see Transjordan there.

[bravenak]

68. Let's argue semantics all day everyday while the land theft and murder of civilians continues.

Or lets not, and just realize that we would hate it if we were living under brutal occupation and we wouldn't want to be punished for generations for somethings you were not even alive for. Most palestinians are my age or younger and they have spent the entirety of their existence under threat of total annihilation by Israel and the last near decade under blockade and restriction living lives not so much different in my opinion than slaves on a plantation.

When i see Trans Jordan written out on this way on this board my spidey senses start tingling.

[Fred Sanders]

74. Anyone studying these maps and still not getting the consequence of forced seizure of land and holy

sites is going to be resisted is someone who wants to be blind.

[bravenak]

76. Infuriating.

The deception is getting more blatant.

[ReRe]

66. Wheweeeee! I'll never forget what one certain...

... DUer told me a couple weeks ago when I called it genocide. Said I would be laughed at for that stupid comment! Well, I'll say it again. If that ain't genocide, I don't know what is. Hell, I could go further, but I won't do it, because I have no ill feeling for the Israeli people. I only have ill feelings for Bibi Netanyahu & his killing regime. He has caged the Palestinians, won't let them come and go freely, they don't have jobs, don't have things they need for a basic living, live in fear of losing their lives every single hour of every single day. And then he kills them. It's just eerily similar to something that happened a long time ago that the people of the world said "Never again" to.

[Hippo_Tron]

70. Lets just clear something up...

In 1947, the United Nations partitioned Historic Palestine, giving 55% to the Jewish population and 45% to the Palestinian population. The indigenous Palestinians rejected the division of the land on which they had lived and farmed for centuries.

Partitioned meant giving control of 55% of the land to a democratically elected government under which the Palestinians living there were welcome to stay and participate in as citizens of Israel. Yes, that situation changed after Syria, Jordan, and Egypt decided to try and conquer Israel. But the establishment of the state itself did not result in Palestinians being forced off their land. The war that followed did.

[Fred Sanders]

78. Cause and effect. The effect of the UN mandate was or caused war, I understand that.

[Hippo_Tron]

113. No, Egypt, Jordan, and Syria caused war

Again, Israel was created as a democracy. There were hundreds of thousands of Arabs living in that 55% that became Israel to whom that state would've belong to just as much as any Jew, had Egypt, Syria, and Jordan just stayed the fuck out.

[RRumpole]

84. The missing maps and the missing facts

Where is the mention of the fact that the Palestinians refused to set up their own government on the West Bank from 1948 to 1955? Where is the map showing the annexation of the West Bank and Jerusalem by Jordan in 1955? Where is the discussion of the refusal by Jordan to resettle the people in the refugee camps from 1955 through 1967?
No mention is made of the offer on July 14, 1967 made by Israel to turn over 99.9% of the West Bank to the Palestinians. Of course, no mention has been made of the reply of the Arab League made on Sept 1, 1967 which included, "no peace, No Israel."

[Fred Sanders]

87. Honoured to be the recipient of your very first post, which, unfortunately, is nothing more than

a warren of rabbit holes.

[elias7]

99. Wow, how rude and how wrong.

Your mind is closed.

[econoclast]

101. Skewed and incomplete facts

1). Under the Ottoman Empire it was illegal to sell land to Jews. Small wonder then that Jews only owned a small % of the land.

2). Under the UN Partition all Palestinians had to do was sit down, shut up, and play nice and they would have had a legal, recognized State of their very own. But no. They wanted not half a loaf but the whole thing. In 1948, the Arab League attacked the nascent Israel on behalf of the Palestinians promising to destroy it completely. The Palestinians could have the whole loaf!!! But it didn't work out that way. The Arabs lost.

3). After the 1948/49 war. Jordanian forces were on land that was supposed to have been Palestine under the UN Partition. What we call the West Bank. Egyptian forces were also on land that was supposed to have been Palestine under the UN Partition. The Gaza Strip. Egypt and Jordan could have granted those landsto the Palestinians to become a state of Palestine. But no. Egypt and Jordan annexed those lands. They said, in effect ... Palestine? Never heard of it. This is now part of Jordan. This is now part of Egypt.

4). After the 1967 war when Arab countries again tried to wipe Israel off the map but instead got their asses kicked, Israeli forces controlled the West Bank and Gaza Strip .... Remember these lands were now part of Jordan and Egypt - not Palestine - and had been for almost 20 years.

5). Same in 1972 when for a third time an attempt was made to wipe Israel iff the map.

Imagine .... The same people have tried in broad daylight to kill you and your family three times. They still freely and publicly say they want to kill you. But on one of their attempts to kill you one of them dropped their wallet. Now they want the wallet back. You giving it to them?

[Fred Sanders]

102. All your points ignore Israel was a country dropped into the middle of another country/land

Without their consent, but carry on with the history lesson. Made up country from whole cloth.

Where is that bit of information in your lecture?

[econoclast]

103. No "other country"

There never was a "Palestine". Ever.

That portion of the world was part of one empire or another for 2000 years. Egypt Rome Byzantium Moslem. Most recently it was part of the Ottoman Empire and after WWI passed to the British as a Protectorate. The Brits re-established some of the old nation states Egypt. Syria etc. and created others out if whole cloth Iran Iraq

Lastly was the Jerusalem surroundings. Which was to become 2 States. Palestine and Israel. But the Palestinians gambled on the whole thing and LOST. Sad. But nobody to blame but themselves.

[TheKentuckian]

104. And so all the layers come off the onion and the real objection comes into the light

Your objection appears to be the very existence of Israel and any and all actions taken including three wars with the express intent to wipe them from the face of the Earth and decades of terrorism with the same agenda are judged as acceptable, even reasonable response hence your use of antisemitic sources to push your point, not deviating an iota from the same logic.

[Fred Sanders]

105. The "anti-Semite response" ones are excruciatingly boring, yet all too common.

[econoclast]

106. And sadly all too accurate it would seem

[TheKentuckian]

107. I'd find it "boring" if I didn't have an acceptable response too, I reckon.

Or is your actual opinion more along the lines of "Jews are okay individually as long as they are in diaspora"?

Or is it something else that isn't coming through because all I'm gleaning here is that Israel is not acceptable and all actions to remove it are perfectly reasonable.

[onenote]

116. Your earlier "chosen people" snark kinda gives you away.