What if the CDC plane carrying the Ebola victims crashed on American soil?

[apples and oranges]

What would happen to the heros and first responders?

Clarification: In a non-fiery but fatal crash, what would happen to ordinary folks who went to assist but were clueless about the plane, it's contents, and destination?

[Tanuki]

1. What if there was a sharknado?

[img][/img]

[apples and oranges]

2. Clever, but there have been several major plane crashes this year

and zero sharknados.

[CreekDog]

55. then the first responders would be quarantined as well.

your OP is hysteria.

[cbayer]

9. OMG! That is one of the best responses I have ever seen on DU.

[LanternWaste]

12. Absurdity requires an absurd response.

Absurdity requires an absurd response. Well done. Well done, indeed!

[apples and oranges]

17. Absurdity? Plane crashes don't happen?

Why isn't anyone actually answering the question. Is our policy to just hope for the best and not plan for the worst?

[LanternWaste]

21. People are answering the question. You're simply ignoring their answers.

People are answering the question. You're simply ignoring their answers by qualifying even more hypotheticals...

Car crashes happen too. What happens if you're in a car crash tonight? Dear God... we must plan for ALL eventualities!!! I might be bit by a grumpy alligator this weekend at the zoo-- it happens.

"Is our policy to just hope for the best and not plan for the worst?"
Have you gone to the, well.. you know, the CDC's website and searched for protocols? No? Well, not having read it yourself simply does not mean we have no policies in place...

[alcibiades_mystery]

14. ROFL

[Warren Stupidity]

15. We should plan for that.

[longship]

23. DUzy!

[99Forever]

33. Boom, thread win!

Right out of the gate.

[onehandle]

38. Don't be ridiculous.

Bigger chance of a catnado.

[IMG][/IMG]

[Mrdrboi]

48. I know right. I find it bad Syfy has been making a mockery of a very real weather event.

It really bothers me that the terrible writing and acting are distracting people from the very real dangers of sharknados.

[msanthrope]

52. ENOUGH SAID!!! nt

[flamingdem]

65. lol, how about a Sharknado with Ebola infected

flying sharks!

[Cali_Democrat]

74. Perhaps the best first reply to an inane post I've ever seen

[Takket]

75. you nailed it

[Capt. Obvious]

3. What if the border militias turn the plane back?

[hatrack]

4. Flaming balls of jet fuel tend to kill viruses - along with the humans who carry them

.

[LisaL]

7. When Ebola patients die, their bodies are highly infectious, which contributes to the spread of the

disease.

[Warren Stupidity]

16. Which is incineration would be a good thing.

[apples and oranges]

20. An ordinary citizen would not know that incineration was required

before making contact with the bodies. Did you see the MH17 wreckage?

[Warren Stupidity]

43. Yes there is a very small risk that "ordinary citizen" will scoop up body goop

from a plane crash and rub it on open wounds, shove it up their nose, eat it, or stick it in their eyes. I suppose we should be concerned.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

51. Ok, who among us hasn't done that after having a little too much to drink? nt

[Warren Stupidity]

59. Consider the zombie apocalypse.

This is how it started.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

61. We were lucky it didn't start sooner, when Breitbart had sex with that goat. nt

[Hekate]

68. Again with the goatf*ckers! Awesome. nt

[brooklynite]

5. What if there was a fire in a hospital?

Don't you think first responders have protocols for things like this?

[apples and oranges]

8. Not regular joes, no. Especially if they have no idea what's on board.

[brooklynite]

35. And why would they have "no ide what's on board"

You don't think the plane is being monitored and appropriate notification would be provided?

[Live and Learn]

6. WTF, Either the plane inhabitants would die(likely) or they would survive (hopefully).

Is this one of those where would the survivors be buried jokes?

If not, it is simply another pathetic attempt at fear mongering.

So what if it crashed? The virus is brought to the US a year before it would have come anyway? Some Americans would die from it? But not many more than die from other causes daily.

Truth is, it is an opportunity to learn from the disease and hopefully prevent it in the future. Try being heroic and accepting that your ultimate fate is death in any account.

[apples and oranges]

10. I think the question was clear. Not all crashes result in a fiery

explosion. What if the plane crashed, and "regular joes" who were clueless about the plane and it's destination went to the scene to help. What if everyone on board passed away but the plane was partially intact, but the Ebola patients were no longer in the isolation contraptions?

I think that would start the spread of Ebola in the US.

[Warren Stupidity]

19. In the worst case, all these "joes"

would get quarantined.

Ok?

[longship]

29. Several things.

First, some facts about Ebola.

1. It is not infectious until symptoms form.

2. The reason why is because it only spreads via bodily fluids. It is not airborne transmissible.

3. It is so deadly that by the time symptoms show up, the window for travel is very short and the patient is basically screwed.

4. The CDC (Center for Disease Control) in Atlanta has been studying Ebola since its first emergence. They are the Ebola experts on the planet. They are the A-Team. That's likely why the two US Ebola patients -- who both received experimental treatments -- are being moved to Atlanta where they can be treated and observed under controlled conditions by the experts in the field.

Relax, there will be no Ebola-nado.

[FSogol]

30. Ebolanado!

What if the first responders had an orgy with the infected surviving passengers? Lots of bodily fluids could get spread!

[Laffy Kat]

41. Ebola-nado?

You should pitch that to the Syfy Channel!

[msanthrope]

53. Here you go....

[Bragi]

57. Good post!

You hit all the necessary points.

[Tanuki]

62. You should copyright "ebolanado" TODAY

before someone else beats you to it, and set up a pitch meeting with the project development team at ScyFy Channel! The screenplay practically writes itself.

[VanillaRhapsody]

76. YES!!! This ^^^^

what better way then to have blood that is contaminated to test their new vaccines.....which are due to be trialed in September....And if they are working on a therapy for it.......IF this disease were to become airborne....WE ALL would be in grave danger.....you have to have people to try treatments on.....so that they can extrapolate that knowledge for the rest of us should this become a full blown plague....

[The Traveler]

77. That's a good characterization

of Ebola Zaire. This is a different strain. Its incubation period is different. It's mortality rate is different. Its vector seems different. Front line medical personnel are speculating this may have gone airborne.

I'm not worried about a plane crash ... but it could happen.

I'm worried about a couple of things.

1) As mentioned above, the vector(s) for this strain are at this point uncertain. Accidental breaches of isolation have happened before. This is Atlanta. It is densely populated and a major transportation hub. If we get unlucky, we have a major, and possibly unmanageable, problem. The risks are low .. the consequences of failure incalculable. I'm looking at the risk/reward /consequences structure and I don't get it. I think this is a dumb idea.

2) You can pretty much kiss the Democratic resurgence in GA good bye. People here are more than alarmed ... and they are really (and rightly) pissed off that local governments weren't brought into this decision. This WILL be an election issue down here, and it WILL get over amped. It was an uphill climb before ... but doable. Now it will be a lot steeper. Thanks for all the help, guys.

It's all nice that ya'll think we're safe down here, and mock people's concerns. I live less than 10 miles from Emory. I have a kid that has to go to that hospital for routine treatments. We are not happy. Not out of our minds with fear but, yeah, we're concerned and empathize with our neighbors who are quite anxious about it.

And God help us all if it gets out through Hartsfield ...

Trav

[longship]

85. Who was mocking?

And this is not a political issue. It is a scientific one. And although the early Ebola epidemiology may very well have changed somewhat, the experts know some things about the current outbreak.

1. It still does not have airborne transmission. Transmission is still solely through bodily fluids. Because of this, it is still not infective until symptoms appear.

2. Ebola in the "outback" is much more containable than Ebola in more urban areas. (Duh!)

3. It is still so fucking deadly and aggressive that travel, although a worry, once symptoms show up there is little opportunity for traveling before symptoms become obvious, and indeed debilitating.

So, although this may be a new strain, it seems to have the exact characteristics of previous outbreaks. The only difference may be the environment of the outbreak. I am sure that the epidemiologists are tracking this, and have explanations for the size of the outbreak.

Yes, this is a concern.

But, Ebola is so fucking aggressive and deadly that it tends to burn out quickly when appropriate controls are put into place. The epidemiologists know that, too. Many people here apparently do not trust them and prefer to set their hair on fire and run around in a panic. (They deserve mocking.)

But yup! This is a real screw job for the people in West Africa.

[The Traveler]

86. It should have burned itself out by now

Which is why the on scene people are wondering. Studies in 2012 showed existing strains could be passed through the air attached to mucous droplets ... like a sneeze. But there is no real evidence this has happened in the field. Speculation has been fueled by the observation that the infected American medical staff were known for being diligent about their precautions. So how were they exposed? And the outbreak is not following the typical pattern ... but this strain has a more variable, longer incubation period and that alone may be sufficient to account for that. My point is, the matter of vectors is somewhat uncertain.

Looking for that article ... dammit I wish I had book marked that.

As for mocking ... hell, this thread is full of it. I shall refrain from my vantage point less than 12 miles from the Emory campus from expressing my appreciation for that.

And in this era, everything gets politicized whether it should be or not. Nathan Deal is going down unless he pulls something out of his ass. Believe me, this is a gift. He'll use it. The locals aren't happy, and that is pretty much a bipartisan consensus among my neighbors. Hell, I am not exactly thrilled myself.

Your position is ... what can go wrong? I am not a medical expert. I am an aerospace and software guy. Degree in physics and all. Biology involves icky goopy stuff ... it ain't my field at all. But I can do math. And I used to get paid to do risk analysis. Was pretty good at it, too.

And I am a BELIEVER. I BELIEVE in Murphy's Law. lol!

It is not that I don't have confidence in the Emory/CDC team. I know people who are likely on the very team in question. (I will NOT be bothering them with my questions about this.) These are very smart, skilled, highly trained people. The probabilities are very high that this virus will never come within a meter of escaping its containment. But breeches have happened before. Murphy will have his due from time to time.

And again ... it is all about the consequences. The risk is lower than perceived by the general public but the consequences are higher than you acknowledge. If this breaks out through Emory personnel, it is in Decatur, L5P or Virginia Highlands in 12 hours. If it gets there, it is on an airplane the next day. We used to have facilities out in the middle of the Utah desert for this kind of situation ... where an accident could be contained. There is little prospect for containing that here.

It's kinda like my beef with nuclear power. The odds of a containment failure at any given plant on any given day are low. But each day is a roll of the dice. Eventually, you lose. Now ... what are the consequences of that failure? How do you mitigate and constrain those? Thankfully, in this situation, we can expect a far shorter series of dice rolls.

So I very much hope you are right and my concerns are completely unfounded. Color me unconvinced.

Trav

[magical thyme]

11. A fiery crash would burn up the virus with the patient

Personally, I'm more concerned about an international traveler in the early stages who is asymptomatic when they fly here, who develops symptoms after they arrive and walks into an ED. The first responders there would be wearing only gloves and lab coats when examining and doing the initial testing.

I remember last year on a busy night at our ED when a nurse ran, shrieking, out of a room. Turns out the patient fainted into her arms and then peed down her leg. That would have been a serious exposure.

[LisaL]

13. When the plane was shot down in Ukraine, lots of bodies were found, looking almost intact.

So why are you assuming that crush would burn everything up?

[apples and oranges]

18. Exactly!

[LeftyMom]

22. That plane exploded in mid-air and the peices fell to the ground.

What do you think the chances are of a plane being hit by a missile over Georgia?

[LisaL]

24. Bodies fell to the ground intact.

Certainly not everything would get burned in a plane crush.

[LeftyMom]

27. Because missile.

Christ.

[LisaL]

28. Oh for crying out loud.

In plenty of crushes, there is no missile, yet bodies are still not burned to a crisp.
Christ right back at you.

[TorchTheWitch]

34. why do you keep calling it a plane "crush"?

What the heck is "crush" supposed to mean?

[cwydro]

44. I'm laughing out loud.

Literally. I was wondering the same.

This thread is hilarious!

[TorchTheWitch]

50. it's driving me nuts

Once I can see as a typo, but three times? WTF is a plane "crush"?

Every time I see that word it makes me think of grape crush soda. So, what, is a "plane crush" grape crush soda without the grape???

[LisaL]

72. Has it ever occurred to you that English is not everybody's native language?

Apparently not.

[Warren Stupidity]

92. Well it should be 'cause we are too damn stupid to learn any other language.

[Orrex]

46. In 6th grade I thought I was in love with Michelle Ferris

But it was just a plain crush.

[cwydro]

63. LOL! nt

[Orrex]

47. LOL. "Because missile."

Chrust!

[LeftyMom]

25. Mulder and Scully would see pictures of their medical files and come to investigate,

The lone survivor would say somethig cryptic and then die. Scully would do autopsies while Mulder went tp the crash site at night. Mulder would become infected, the Smoking Man would give Scully a cure, which she would agonize about using. Meanwhie the site would be covered up. The episode concludes with the pair in a recovery room while news footage of a bad cover stpry plays on the tv.

If you're going to insist on outlandish nonsense go all out.

[longship]

32. You forgot the AARP commercials!

And penis enlargement ads. Maybe a few ambulance chasing lawyer ads. (You know the ones: "Have you ever taken the drug Mortapror for penis enlargement and had it fall off?&quot

Can't have Scully and Mulder without those.

[Hekate]

64. I miss Fox Mulder and Dana Scully. I think I had a plain crush on him.

[Warren Stupidity]

66. I had a crash on scully.

Or maybe it was Muldar. I never could get them straight. It wasn't the one in the awful Californication.

[Hubert Flottz]

26. The CIA could say that Putin shot it down...

and the world would believe it.

[840high]

56. Bush did it.

[Orrex]

36. The first thing we need to do is find a way to panic

Three things:

It seems highly unlikely that they'd transport such victims in a Piper Cub or similar small craft, so the crash site would be largescale and by its nature probably wouldn't invite exploration by good samaritans.

It seems highly unlikely that "ordinary folks" would immediately grab dead bodies at an aircraft crash site

It seems highly likely that the FAA and CDC would notify local dispatch of the nature of the craft, its occupants and cargo prior to deploying first responders

[tridim]

37. Obama would be blamed. nt

[ellie]

39. i read a thread about this at another site.

I don't think it is beyond the realm of possibility, but of course there will be people who will scoff.

[Laffy Kat]

40. That's why trained first responders use universal precautions.

Accidents happen to people with other infectious diseases all of the time.

[Warren Stupidity]

67. But what about ordinary joes? They could be at the plane crush and then goop

could get up in their junk and then what?

[apples and oranges]

71. You got me. I'm LOL'ing now.

[Laffy Kat]

73. Ummm. . . . nt

[conservaphobe]

42. I'll let the experts worry about it.

So I don't have to.

[4now]

45. People could worry about real stuff.

[winter is coming]

49. The "ordinary folks" could set off an epidemic, killing us all and rendering 2016 irrelevant.

Sounds pretty good to me.

[CreekDog]

54. what if they didn't fly here and the disease could never, ever possibly get here any other way???

i mean if there isn't a plane crash, then the disease will stay in Africa forever, it will never POSSIBLY travel to the USA! how could that happen?

[stevenleser]

58. I like Chicken. nt

[pinboy3niner]

93. Meh. Who cares about your poultry opinion?

You might at least stay abreast of the issue. *thigh*

[whistler162]

60. Or what if a blue chunk of ice from the

planes lavatory came down and hit your house?

[magical thyme]

94. lol

that one made me

[Chan790]

69. There's a protocol.

The first-responders, survivors and heroes would be quarantined by people in containment gear and treated to best of capability.

The wreckage would be treated as an unsecured and unsecurable contamination site...they would incinerate it in-situ. Nothing survives a 4000'F fire.

[Puzzledtraveller]

70. this

[cheapdate]

78. Worry about smallpox if you need something real to worry about.

As horrible as it is, the Ebola virus is not seriously able to spread in the United States. The means of transmission prevents it.

Smallpox on the other hand, if it got started, would have an extremely serious potential to become a worldwide pandemic of epic proportions. People are no longer vaccinated. Vaccinations from 30 years ago are probably no longer effective. It spreads VERY easily by airborne transmission, and people are infectious before they show symptoms.

Yes. Worry about smallpox. Not Ebola. Unless your local community gathers around dead corpses and buries them themselves near where people live.

[H2O Man]

79. What if it rained TVs?

[2naSalit]

83. Snort***

You reminded me of this

Just couldn't resist.

[Tanuki]

87. Remember when it was raining men?

http://www.mtv.com/videos/the-weather-girls/878542/its-raining-men.jhtml

[defacto7]

80. There's an awful lot of intelligent people

offering insulting, stupid, half baked answers in this thread.

The question was legitimate though highly improbable. People deserve respectful answers to their questions without mockery.

It seems longship has a respectable and reasonable answer. I'd only add that the transport is military and will be escorted part of the way to a military base. It's a pretty safe deal and a great opportunity to study the disease with the best equipment and medical support.

[Warpy]

81. Most planes that crash catch on fire

and people with full blown Ebola are not going to be in any sort of a mood to run to an emergency exit if they survive the landing, at all.

The virus would be incinerated with the sick folks, right on the spot.

At this point, you'd be better off to go around your property if you live in the south and empty out any standing water so mosquitoes can't breed in it. Chikungunya has turned up in Florida and will probably make its way through the deep south, as fast as the bugs can fly.

That's the one to be afraid of right now.

Don't forget, Ebola-Zaire has been in this country for a very long time, kept in animal reservoirs so that virologists can continue to try to make a vaccine.

[WCLinolVir]

82. Information here about Ebola, transport, and transmission.

Last edited Sat Aug 2, 2014, 01:05 AM - Edit history (2)

CDC-
What about ill Americans with Ebola who are being brought to the United States for treatment? How is CDC protecting the American public?
CDC has very well-established protocols in place to ensure the safe transport and care of patients with infectious diseases back to the United States. These procedures cover the entire process -- from patients leaving their bedside in a foreign country to their transport to an airport and boarding a non-commercial airplane equipped with a special transport isolation unit, to their arrival at a medical facility in the United States that is appropriately equipped and staffed to handle such cases. CDC's role is to ensure that travel and hospitalization is done to minimize risk of spread of infection and to ensure that the American public is protected. Patients were evacuated in similar ways during the SARS pandemic.
http://www.cdc.gov/vhf/ebola/outbreaks/guinea/qa.html
It will be obvious that this is a med transport plane. I would imagine the first responders will be a specialized unit.

if you want to be scared, think about how long Ebola stays active outside a host-
SURVIVAL OUTSIDE HOST: The virus can survive in liquid or dried material for a number of days. Infectivity is found to be stable at room temperature or at 4°C for several days, and indefinitely stable at -70°C (6, 20). Infectivity can be preserved by lyophilisation.
http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/lab-bio/res/psds-ftss/ebola-eng.php

[deathrind]

84. Potentially it could be...

Disastrous. However chances are about as good as the first reply in this thread so eloquently state. Plane crashes do happen on a regular basis but we know what this planes cargo is and if it crashed the response would be more than adequate to containe the danger... I hope... We are human after all...

[kentauros]

88. It won't be a problem if the pilots and navigator had the steak.

If they all had the fish, though...

[krawhitham]

89. What would happen if Ebola came to the United States?

http://www.vox.com/2014/7/30/5948995/why-ebola-would-never-get-this-bad-in-america/in/5712456

....
The scenario isn't as far-fetched as it might sound. With air travel as common as it is, borders don't mean all that much when it comes to disease. It's entirely possible — though by no means certain — that at some point, someone infected with Ebola could get on a plane and land in the United States. And then what?

As it turns out, experts say, we'd probably be able to contain an Ebola outbreak here pretty quickly.
....

http://www.vox.com/2014/7/30/5948995/why-ebola-would-never-get-this-bad-in-america/in/5712456

[muriel_volestrangler]

90. In a fatal crash, people don't normally start handling the bodies

unless they are trained; in which case, they'd have been notified that the crashed plane had an Ebola victim on board.

If someone did touch the bodies, then they'd be put under surveillance.

[Warren Stupidity]

91. We are talking about a plain crush. Pay attention. And Ordinary Joes.

Think about it. There could be goop everywhere.