Can Someone Explain To Me These Tunnels That Israel Is Trying To Destroy.....

[global1]

Were they built recently? How long did they exist? How many tunnels are there? How come the Israeli's didn't know about these tunnels until now (or at least that's what I'm led to believe)?

Here's were I'm going with these questions. These tunnels didn't get built overnight. It takes a long time to dig a tunnel. Why didn't Israel know about these tunnels as they were being built? Why weren't these tunnels destroyed as they were being built? Why wait until there is a critical mass of these tunnels to take them out?

What am I missing here?

[JustAnotherGen]

1. Not sure of the timelines

But as I understand it - with the blockades they have been used to get people critical supplies. They aren't just a tool of Hamas if you will.

And many of those supplies have been off the black market.

A lot of stress, pain, and misery could be alleviated in Gaza if they could engage in trade at a level that allows people to not suffer.

[global1]

3. Please Clarify Your Statement - With The Blockades They Have Been Used To Get People Critical.....

supplies. They aren't just a tool of Hamas if you will. Am I to understand that these tunnels could have originated on the Israeli side?

Who built these tunnels?

[JVS]

30. Tunnels are used for all sorts of things. Even smuggling fast food

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024243785

[former9thward]

8. No, that is not what they are being used for.

The so-called trade tunnels go into Egypt. The tunnels used for terrorism go into Israel. Israel is destroying the tunnels going into Israel not the tunnels going into Egypt.

[JustAnotherGen]

25. Ahhh- thank you

[Fawke Em]

2. Wiki has your answer

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip_smuggling_tunnels

My ex husband is Palestinian - all-be-it from the West Bank side (near Bethlehem) - and he says that the tunnels were initially built to smuggle in supplies and smuggle out trade.

I suppose some are used to sneak in terrorism, but that wasn't their initial purpose.

Gaza is blocked off and cannot trade. Much like the Jews used the sewers in the Warsaw Ghetto to smuggle in and out much-needed supplies, the Gazans use their tunnels for the same purpose.

[global1]

4. But If I'm Understanding This Right - The Tunnels Exit Into Israel.....

if that be the case - who is helping the Gazans smuggle in the much-needed supplies?

[former9thward]

5. The poster does not know what they are talking about.

There are two sets of tunnels. Tunnels to Egypt and tunnels to Israel. The tunnels to Egypt were used for trade and to smuggle in construction materials for new tunnels. The tunnels to Israel are used for terrorist operations against Israeli civilians.

[Fawke Em]

7. You don't know what you're talking about.

Tunnels into Israel ARE used for trade and 90 percent of any "terrorism" committed as a result of someone going through these tunnels are inflicted upon Israeli SOLDIERS, not upon the citizenry.

Not saying any of this is right, but get your facts straight about WHO, exactly, Hamas primarily targets when they uses these tunnels.

On edit: Hamas may use these tunnels to target Israeli soldiers, but the average Gazan uses them for trade.

[former9thward]

11. You have no facts.

Who exactly are Hamas "trading" with in Israel?

[global1]

13. OK - If These Tunnels Are Used For Trade - Are There Israeli's That Are Doing The Trading With The..

Gazan's? How is that allowed in Israel? If there are some unscrupulous Israeli's trading with the Gazan's by using these tunnels - why don't the Israeli's deal with them?

[thucythucy]

16. My guess would be that Israeli Arabs

might be trading into and out of Gaza.

Just a guess, though.

My question would be: why can't the tunnel entrances be sealed off with concrete on the Israeli side, as they're discovered? Wouldn't this be easier, cheaper, less bloody? If they're "targeting" tunnels it must mean the IDF has some notion as to where the tunnels are--and where they end. If you seal off one end of a tunnel, it stops being a tunnel and becomes a useless hole in the ground.

I'm not being snarky, I genuinely wonder about this.

[global1]

18. That's Exactly What I Was Thinking....

and I don't think you're being snarky. I was also just pondering this whole thing and thinking through it rather logically and I kind of came up with the same conclusion as you - easier, cheaper and less bloody.

My next thought is are these tunnels now just being used as an excuse to bomb the Gazan's? I know I'll take some criticism for even bringing that up here - but why now?

[global1]

10. So You See Why I'm Confused By All This And The MSM Really Doesn't Explain In Any Detail......

these tunnels. They just say that the Israeli's are targeting these tunnels. The Wiki link above helps a little - but I'm still not sure why these tunnels couldn't have been destroyed as soon as they were discovered? Now Israel has launched an initiative to destroy these tunnels - and it appears to be a bigger undertaking than if it was dealt with as they were being built.

I know that Israel has this Iron Dome technology - don't they have some technology to ferret out these tunnels as they are being built as well?

[Fawke Em]

12. Why don't they lift the blockade and then the

tunnels wouldn't be necessary?

[Fawke Em]

9. Average Israelis who think the blockade is making things worse. eom

[former9thward]

14. LOL

Totally making up shit. Please link to that fantasy. You think the Israeli military is just sitting around watching it happen?

[Fawke Em]

21. You have Google.

Or are your arms too bound by overtly Zionistic propaganda to actually look up anything?

And - before you say it - I was married to a Palestinian man and now am married to a Jewish man. Both my children are half Semitic.

What I KNOW - from personal experience - is that the average Israeli and the average Palestinian do not LIKE the extremist approach of both their governments and they would prefer to live in peace. If that means that some Israelis (and there ARE Arab Israelis, btw,) want to ease the suffering of the blockaded Gazans by trading with them, they will.

[former9thward]

24. You have google too.

Which is why you have posted no links to back up YOUR claim. It is made up.

[HooptieWagon]

6. OK, answers.

The tunnel building has been going on for several years (not quite 10), as a response to Israel's economic blockade of Gaza. They are commercial enterprises, theres stockholders, dividends, etc, and are used to smuggle large quantities of needed commercial goods... food, gasoline, etc. There are at least several hundred, perhaps a couple thousand tunnels. Israel has certainly known about them, every so often Egypt closes several.... managing to do so without killing hundreds of children. Hamas taxes the tunnels and goods moved through them for revenue. Its possible Hamas has built some of the tunnels, but they can use any privately owned tunnel they want by force, so no big need. The tunnels could be used for a terrorist attack, just like a commercial truck or jet could be, but instances of that occuring appear pretty rare.

[former9thward]

15. Non answers.

The tunnels going to Egypt have been used for trade and to smuggle in construction materials for new tunnels. The tunnels to Israel have never been used for trade. They are terrorist tools.

[HooptieWagon]

17. Very seldom.

[jberryhill]

26. Then they are wildly ineffective "terrorist tools"

Remind us again of how many have been killed in these tunnel raids?

[Tracer]

19. Here's a synopsis of a longer National Geographic story about the tunnels.

The long article ran a few months ago.



Oops. I can see that the link didn't work. Just Google "National Geographic + Palestinian tunnels". That will take you there.

[oberliner]

20. You are getting a lot of misinformation in the responses

The tunnels that are for bringing goods into Gaza are tunnels into Egypt.

What we are talking about her are tunnels into Israel, not Egypt. These are meant for attacks within Israel.

I believe that Israel has said these tunnels have been built over the last 18 months or so. Israeli intelligence has been faulted for not having a better understanding of the nature and scope of these tunnels into recently.

Remember that there has been no Israeli presence within Gaza since the withdrawal (Yes, Israel has still controlled access into and out of Gaza (except for the border with Egypt) but they had no presence inside Gaza itself).

With that in mind, Israel had to rely on intelligence reports - which provided only sketchy information about these tunnels - enough to put Israel on alert and enough to inspire high level discussions about what to do about the situations- but not enough actionable information to destroy the tunnels.

If, over the course of the past year or so, as Israel learned of the tunnels, they started bombing the areas where they thought that might be as they found out about them - that really would not have been effective.

Destroying all the tunnels completely and effectively would require something like what is going on right now.

[Fawke Em]

23. Well, your theory would be plausible if

they were only targeting Israeli tunnels, but they're not.

They're claiming the Gazans also use the Egyptian tunnels to smuggle in bombs and weaponry.

All the tunnels are used for both.

[oberliner]

27. Good point

It is true that they are targeting the tunnels to Egypt as well.

However, your other statement "all the tunnels are used for both" is patently false. None of the tunnels into Israel are used for trade of any kind. That should be obvious.

[jberryhill]

29. "would require something like what is going on right now"

How does shelling multi-story buildings close a tunnel?

[hack89]

31. That is where Hamas hide the entrances nt

[oberliner]

33. Fair comment

Israel is certainly doing more than just destroying tunnels right now.

That said, Israel would have had to engage in some kind of military operation to destroy the tunnels. That's what I meant.

[jberryhill]

36. "some kind" matters

The Soviets managed to close tunnels out of West Berlin without shelling the city.

[oberliner]

37. Yes, I agree

That is one of the many reasons I am opposed to this.

My only point was that if Israel wanted to take action against the tunnels earlier, it would have involved military action inside Gaza.

[Chathamization]

22. Someone's been studying asymmetric warfare.

Cu Chi tunnels.

You’re right that there doesn’t seem to be a lot of information on them, though this article is OK-ish. It seems like most of them are along the border and aimed at attack Israeli forces from the rear in the event of hostilities. It also looks like they’ve been around (and known about) for at least 8 years.

[jberryhill]

28. Been known for years.....

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/16/world/middleeast/tunneling-kfc-to-gazans-craving-the-world-outside.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

[oberliner]

34. Those are into Egypt

Different from the ones that go into Israel.

[sadoldgirl]

32. It seems to me

that all this does not answer the question:Why does Israel have to go into Gaza to close the tunnels? The Israeli government could have checked their own side all the time and closed them down. Not only saving lives, but also much much cheaper.

[oberliner]

35. Interesting article from NPR adressing that question

Excerpt:

The newer tunnels are easier to find, Daniel adds, because they are far longer and heavily reinforced.

"Unlike what it was like during my time, they are put together with communications [capabilities], air, electricity, cement walls and other materials," he says.

All of this means they show up better on radar.

But not so their entrances into Israel, because they are too close to the surface for radar to locate.

"It looks simple, but it's complicated. It's low-tech that high-tech doesn't even know how to find," he explains. "It borders on the abilities of what modern physics can do today."

Nor can they be seen by the naked eye, Daniel adds, because they aren't dug open until the actual attack.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/parallels/2014/07/30/336594614/gazas-network-of-tunnels-is-a-major-hole-in-israels-defenses