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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsThe Rude Pundit: "We Tortured Some Folks" and We Will Do Nothing About It
Someone's gonna have to fuckin' explain this to the Rude Pundit. Someone's gonna have to fuckin' explain how Barack Obama, the President of this damn nation, can go before the press, the TV cameras, the world, and declare, " I)n the immediate aftermath of 9/11 we did some things that were wrong...we tortured some folks" and not follow that up with "And we're going to prosecute those who did it and those who ordered it."
Someone smarter than the Rude Pundit is gonna need to tell him how what the President said next is any sort of alibi: "I understand why it happened. I think its important when we look back to recall how afraid people were after the Twin Towers fell and the Pentagon had been hit and the plane in Pennsylvania had fallen, and people did not know whether more attacks were imminent, and there was enormous pressure on our law enforcement and our national security teams to try to deal with this."
And what the fuck does this even mean? "And its important for us not to feel too sanctimonious in retrospect about the tough job that those folks had. And a lot of those folks were working hard under enormous pressure and are real patriots." So if we think that it was possible to defend the country without breaking the law and torturing innocent people, we're sanctimonious? Fuck you, man. There's a shit-ton of military, intelligence, and law enforcement professionals who would say, "Fuck you" to that, too.
Let's be clear: when someone says that we're talking about torture right after 9/11, as if a couple of rogue agents twisted the nuts of Abdul al-Suicidebomb as he ululated, "Death to America," that's a fucking lie. That's revisionist history for our increasingly short-term memory. What we're really talking about is a system of torture used for years that was approved at the highest levels of government. We didn't just torture "some folks." We tortured lots of people. And if we weren't torturing them bad enough to get the answers they didn't have, we sent them places where they could be tortured even worse.
And let's be clearer: By not much of a stretch of Obama's reasoning, any time a cop, in the heat of an interrogation, beats the shit out of a perp, he is justified. Hell, every Stand Your Ground incident is legitimate because of the "enormous pressure" on the person thinking the stranger knocking at the door is going to off them. Most frighteningly, everything our government does after an attack is ok because, goddamnit, those interrogators forcing nude, kidnapped detainees into stress positions and slamming them around are motherfucking patriots and the rest of us Don't Understand Reality.
Don't worry, though. Obama is on the case: " W)e did some things that were wrong. And that's what that ("forthcoming" Senate torture) report reflects. And that's the reason why, after I took office, one of the first things I did was to ban some of the extraordinary interrogation techniques that are the subject of that report." Which is great, kudos, and all that shit, but "some"? Not "all"? And what about the people who tortured? What about Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Yoo, and the rogue's gallery of unapologetic cunts who made it happen?
Said the President, "And my hope is, is that this report reminds us once again that the character of our country has to be measured in part not by what we do when things are easy, but what we do when things are hard. And when we engaged in some of these enhanced interrogation techniques, techniques that I believe and I think any fair-minded person would believe were torture, we crossed a line." So we're gonna frog march the bastards and put 'em in prison, right?
No. "And that needs to be -- that needs to be understood and accepted. And we have to, as a country, take responsibility for that so that, hopefully, we don't do it again in the future."
In other words, the character of the country is shit because we did such things, and we just need to accept it and move on, hoping we don't repeat these crimes that no one was ever charged with. You know, apparently Obama doesn't think he's the leader of a nation based on laws in this case. No, apparently, he's our pathetic dad, telling us that, hey, your uncle raped you, but we don't want to cause turmoil in the family, so you'll just have to get over it, even though you'll see him at every cousin's birthday party.
(One last thing: Could someone tell Obama he's a fucking law professor and to be a little more precise in his words? The people who were tortured are "folks." The people who did the torturing are "folks." We're all just "folks"? Maybe the Rude Pundit's being sanctimonious, but there's some monsters he doesn't want to be lumped in with beyond species.)
Update: Tom Tomorrow pointed out the "some" in the interrogation techniques statement. Yeah, that's fucked up.
http://rudepundit.blogspot.com/2014/08/we-tortured-some-folks-and-we-will-do.html
joeybee12
(56,177 posts)Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)As always, political expediency trumped common human decency.
joeybee12
(56,177 posts)Yeah, look forward so they know they've gotten away with it and will do it again.
truth2power
(8,219 posts)When I look at Obama the word that always comes to mind is 'expediency'.
billhicks76
(5,082 posts)Hillary would be far worse too. I can't wait to vote against her in the Primary for a real liberal. She's a hawk and establishment sell-out that looks more at home next to Jeb a Bush than Elizabeth Warren.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)Hopefully in the future we won't behave the same? Why not? There were no consequences for doing it in the past.
DocMac
(1,628 posts)abelenkpe
(9,933 posts)DocMac
(1,628 posts)DocMac
(1,628 posts)BrotherIvan
(9,126 posts)And some folks on here will rush to defend the indefensible. Maybe they'll start a thread with nice pictures and show how none of this matters. They'll say we're just mad we wanted a pony. Or "the far left" just has their hair on fire again, because torture, meh.
If we become fans who support our leaders no matter what, cheerlead while we talk about torture, we are MONSTERS.
WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)Anyway---WE WERE AFRAID.
Obama's claim is utter bullcrap.
BrotherIvan
(9,126 posts)Nothing to see here. Just a Friday press conference not a speech. He can't help it! He was born in the Midwest. He was inarticulate! You never loved him!!!!!!
zeemike
(18,998 posts)And was told he did not specifically say who is being sanctimonious so it don't count.
BrotherIvan
(9,126 posts)So why is your hair on fire now? If you thought Obama was going to prosecute torturers, you obviously weren't listening!
zeemike
(18,998 posts)And called those who did it patriots, and those that were against it as being too sanctimonious.
From here on out torture is OK if you are scared...the precedent is set.
BrotherIvan
(9,126 posts)Just above the law.
Pot-smoking cancer patient? JAIL
Torturer and War Criminal? BFFE
zeemike
(18,998 posts)W was not that bad, he kept us safe and you can drink a beer with him.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)SMC22307
(8,090 posts)FFS, focus on what really matters!
May it be stress-free, the poor dear, and may he have 53 more!
delete_bush
(1,712 posts)emails asking me to send him a card.
Not wanting to disturb him if perchance they attempted delivery to a golf course, I declined.
SMC22307
(8,090 posts)I must not be on the right list(s)!
I don't begrudge any Prez a *reasonable* amount of downtime, it's the coddling of this one I find so bizarre.
WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)1. Why did Bush sit, well-publicized, inside that school? Was he not worried for the nation? For at least himself?
2. Where were our leaders, to give us a Churchillian pep-talk?
BAH.
You GO, RP.
SMC22307
(8,090 posts)Truly inspiring.
calimary
(81,326 posts)I remember that, too. The cure for this crisis is - everybody go shopping!
Dark n Stormy Knight
(9,771 posts)SMC22307
(8,090 posts)Fantastic Anarchist
(7,309 posts)... he used the word "cunt" in his blog! Focus on the priorities! Won't you think of the children!
WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)SMC22307
(8,090 posts)That phrase bothers me as well. The plane had *merely* fallen!
WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)mindwalker_i
(4,407 posts)We're not a nation of laws. Sure, we HAVE laws, but those are just there as excuses to put non-rich, non-powerful people in prison. Sometimes the main cause it to get taxpayer money to for-profit prison corporations. But, the main point is that laws are not applied evenly or appropriately - when "appropriately" means with the goal of prosecuting wrongdoing or with the intention or stopping future breaking of the laws. This is one example: powerful people who committed torture (or facilitated it) are not going to be prosecuted. When banks stole homes from people, they were not prosecuted. When the government spies on people, in violation of the constitution and wiretapping "laws," they aren't prosecuted. Remember that war?
Is it really that surprising? The economic system has been systematically rigged to make it easier for rich people to get more money. If you are poor (or middle class), it's a lot harder to get money, to save up, and it's by design. If the entire economic system is rigged, is it really surprising that the legal system is rigged too?
So yeah, this IS our culture. It is our character as a nation. This is what we do. We torture people. Torture doesn't work, in terms of getting valuable information to stop further threats and I submit to you that that wasn't the purpose. The reason behind it was to create a sense in the masses that the people in charge were "doing something" to stop further attacks, to create the perception that those in power would do whatever it took to keep another attack from happening. Just like the TSA, though, it's purely about perception. So we tortured people to make us feel better. That is who we are and what we do.
progressoid
(49,992 posts)A few incidents have been exposed, but that just means we'll find new ways to do it and hide the deeds.
zeemike
(18,998 posts)But the difference now is we have a democratic president that has just decriminalized torture and the ignoring of the law and constitution...it used to be they were ashamed when they did such things and tried to cover it up...now it is out in the open for us to accept as normal.
BrotherIvan
(9,126 posts)nashville_brook
(20,958 posts)grasswire
(50,130 posts)Every time he spoils a traditional Democratic value, he takes away issues that people vote on.
Very disheartening.
ReRe
(10,597 posts)"accept" it as normal. You and I are on the same wavelength, zeemake.
zeemike
(18,998 posts)There are lots of us here that don't fall for the bullshit and think it is normal.
mindwalker_i
(4,407 posts)When I think about it for too long, just all the patriotic crap we've all heard growing up sounds like so much bullshit. Land of the free? Land of the brave? Are you fucking kidding me?!
Every time someone talks about how "we were attacked on 9-11, and need to do whatever it takes to be safe," I just think we're a bunch of whiny-ass (insert your chosen word here for "not-brave" . We're so ready to throw our freedoms away for the illusion/delusion of security that ol' Ben would slap us silly. Of course, this doesn't apply to most people here, it applies a lot more to conservatives.
I read Obama's statement on this as, "But we waz skeerd!"
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)Badly written and randomly enforced." - Frank Zappa.
TBF
(32,070 posts)wealthy and powerful are always the ones left off the hook. To me that looks like a pattern.
mindwalker_i
(4,407 posts)Or at least, there's a very strong bias.
Fantastic Anarchist
(7,309 posts)And the laws are used by the state to enhance its monopoly of power and violence against those that aren't fortunate enough to be part of the ruling economic class (ruling economic class because that is exactly who uses the state against the ruled).
daleanime
(17,796 posts)PowerToThePeople
(9,610 posts)malthaussen
(17,205 posts)Mr President, "taking responsibility" does not mean saying "Aw, we diddums bad thing." Yes, it does include acknowledging culpability, but it is meaningless without taking some action to rectify the situation, or at least to try to ensure it doesn't happen again. Setting aside, for the nonce, the question of holding accountable the folks "responsible" for our acts, many of the folks we tortured are still being held in durance in our prison of Guantanamo, without charge, without any hope of relief or even a process by which they might find relief. So long as we continue to hold such folks in violation of the human rights for which we claim we are fighting, we perpetuate the very "mistake" you are attempting, in your inimitable way, to "explain." (I won't say "justify" Would you care to "explain" that, Mr President? Or does your message amount to nothing more than "Well, we can be scum. Let's get on with it, then."
-- Mal
BrotherIvan
(9,126 posts)myrna minx
(22,772 posts)obxhead
(8,434 posts)But I guess, I'm not violate the law quite as bad as the last guy isn't such a great campaign slogan.
DeSwiss
(27,137 posts)There's no mistake -- you're right -- it was all total bullshit.
- It was a performance that Richard Nixon could only envy: ''They are not crooks.''
K&R
Oh, and I'm saving this rant for posterity's sake.......
DocMac
(1,628 posts)Great post!
Scalded Nun
(1,236 posts)There is still a large chuck of this nation that sees nothing wrong with what was done. Wave that flag, point fingers at bad guys, and you can do what you will, laws and morality be damned. This is not just the dumb or uninformed that allowed this to happen (and to go unpunished), it is the fearful. That is what we have become, a nation of fearful individuals. Our leaders know it (both sides) and use it to their advantage. They know we will never stand together to demand change, and I think they are pretty much safe with that belief.
Muslims should be glad their faith does not show in their face. They would have been put it (and still be) in camps, and do not think for a minute it would not have happened. We, as a country, just never learn.
Scuba
(53,475 posts)L0oniX
(31,493 posts)It's bizzaroland in the USA today.
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)dawg
(10,624 posts)this thing went all the way to the top. It would be grossly unfair to hold anyone accountable for this unless Bush and Cheney are to be held to the same standard. The torture wasn't the actions of some over-enthusiastic subordinated who did this behind the administration's back. The torture was official policy.
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)I would absolutely cheer to see Bush and Cheney in front of a court at the Hague.
But if we can't get them there, that's absolutely no excuse to let any of the 'just following orders' crowd off scot free.
What was grossly unfair was for 'some folks' to be kidnapped, tortured, held for years without trial, and some of them murdered.
So yeah, I'd love to see all involved on trial, but if we can't get all of them, we get as many as we can. And those who 'just followed orders' can spend time in jail regretting that they ever obeyed such orders.
JoeyT
(6,785 posts)If "I was just following orders" isn't an excuse "I was just giving the orders" sure as shit ain't one.
I'd take Bush and Cheney even if it meant letting absolutely everyone else go. Prosecuting the peons isn't going to discourage people from doing this again. Bush being dragged away from his easel and Cheney being dragged away from whatever camera he's in front of and trying them both publicly before casting them into a dungeon might.
The people that give the orders don't care if you jail all their subordinates, as long as you don't inconvenience them personally.
dawg
(10,624 posts)Part of me really hates to see the little guys get punished while the powerful people, who were even more culpable, walk free. (And appear on Sunday talk shows) But you are right - everyone who took part in torturing others is guilty.
Fantastic Anarchist
(7,309 posts)If that's the logic, I'm going to be a very rich man in a few hours.
Thanks, Obama!
spanone
(135,846 posts)WilliamPitt
(58,179 posts)(/sarcasm)
Just trying to be one of the cool kids. I saw Charlie Pierce down there under the bus, figured he could use some company.
I'm so furious about this I can't even write about it.
n2doc
(47,953 posts)Defending leaders who whitewash atrocities gets tiring, ya know?
Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)pscot
(21,024 posts)Given the crowd already down there. Some of our best people too.
GeorgeGist
(25,321 posts)rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)I have a bad feeling that it's the precursor to something worse. Ignoring the problem has worked ok for 6 years, so why now?
B- Some are saying we shouldn't hold the lower level torturers accountable unless we hold the leaders. I disagree. Those that followed orders and did unspeakable things to other human beings are not just ordinary working "folks", they have to be sick themselves. These are not people I want to live next door to. And besides we know that Bush/Cheney will be protected, pardoned or absolved in some way. The next time this comes up, I want the low level grunts that pour the water and beat people with pipes, to say "No f'n way. We will be prosecuted and not you asshole."
If we don't deal with this appropriately we will have normalized it.
Fourth... I really don't think Pres Obama has a choice. I believe that he is out ranked by the NSA/CIA branch of government. If you think about it, it only makes sense.
WilliamPitt
(58,179 posts)Because the CIA got very publicly caught snooping on the Congressional report on the matter.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)I am guessing the report isn't good and he is softened us up with the "folks" shite.
ReRe
(10,597 posts)It has all to do with John Brennan, who was one of the main architects of torture, not to mention father of the drones, and who now was sitting on the hot seat in deep doo-doo for lying about his CIA snooping in DiFi's Senate Intel Committee computers, the Congressional Committee who has oversight over the CIA, the very Committee that had been investigating the torture issue for I don't know how many years and was ready to publish their report this very week, that is until she got it back from the Adm/CIA in a state of great redaction last Fri morning (I believe), whereupon she hit the ceiling because this meant she was going to have to go back and rework the whole thing in order to present it to the public, then, enter PO to the folksy presser, late Fri afternoon.
Now. How's that for a run-on sentence? Did I lose you?
Nathaniel Hawthorne would be so proud.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)confused as to who are the good guys here. I wouldn't trust DiFi, but then I trust Brennan less. The portion of the president's speech that I've read sounded to me like he was soft-selling torture if not rationalizing it. What do you think? And what was the point of the speech?
I tend to run-on sentences, so I arbitrarily add periods and capitalize the next words.
ReRe
(10,597 posts)... anymore either, but if you remember, she was all FOR John Brennan in his confirmation hearing. Did you see any of that? In the matter of one year, John Brennan stabbed her and her committee in the back. John Brennan's CIA spied on it's Congressional oversight committee while the committee was investigating the CIA per the torture allegations. And not only did they just spy on the Sen Intel Committee, they removed info from their computers, and they read their e-mails. Get it? The CIA obstructed justice. And then Fri afternoon late, the President had the presser and swept it all under the rug. Said he had total confidence in John Brennan & the CIA, etc., etc., etc. Go back and read my run-on sentence again. Slowly.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)hoping that there was more to the press conference than what I am hearing. Sadly, it doesn't sound like it.
Some say I'm conspiracy happy but I like to call it "thinking outside the box". I think Pres Obama is an honest person that has the best of the nation at heart. But it is very logical to me that there is a, call it a organization, for the lack of a better word, that out-ranks the President. It's hard to guess how far back it's gone but it seems very straight forward to me that during the lost Bush decade, the NSA/CIA/FBI group was given unlimited funding and carte blanche to spend, build programs, etc. to fight the enemy, without essentially any oversight. There is really no reason to believe that they didn't push or exceed the very loose limits of the Patriot Act and FISA laws. I am not saying they are evil but I believe very powerful. I can see that when Obama took office that the heads of the Security State got together with him and explained how it would not be in the best interest of the country if he tried to mess with the systems they had set up. Go ahead and tell me I'm crazy but that might explain why he hasn't fired Brennan or Gen Clapper.
ReRe
(10,597 posts)... basically, it's his lousy choice of advisers, and the weight he allows to their opinions.
Ccarmona
(1,180 posts)run state sanctioned Medical Marijuana clinics only to have their assets seized and their doors locked by law enforcement using Gustapo-like tactics. (Oaksterdam comes to mind). Obama and his Secretary of Justice condone this type of military style activity and keep the banks on notice by not allowing those banks to accept money from the clinics (or take credit cards). Our priorities are so out-of-whack it's sad.
As to the timing of Obama's statement, it was a Friday afternoon in August. What better time to make statements and hope nobody is paying attention.
Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)"We tormented some Muslims.
Went out 4 some smokes.
It hurts to say it,
We tortured some folks"
https://soundcloud.com/lelink/we-tortured-some-folks
WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)Don't be sanctimonious!
Obama declared,
"Patriots tortured
Because they were scared!"
treestar
(82,383 posts)Some people were prosecuted. That heinous Lynndie England for one.
neverforget
(9,436 posts)She was court martialed in 2005 and served 521 days in the stockade. Meanwhile, the higher ups in the military, the intelligence agencies and policy makers under President Bush have had nothing happen to them. But, an Army Specialist was convicted so there's that.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)the President blinds them to reality.
neverforget
(9,436 posts)despicable
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)despicable
neverforget
(9,436 posts)rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)and other war crimes? What exactly is your point?
LiberalEsto
(22,845 posts)The Rude One puts this into perspective perfectly, as always.
malaise
(269,067 posts)war crimes and violated international conventions re torture are punished - it's that simple.
questionseverything
(9,656 posts)it is the only way back to being a decent society
Hubert Flottz
(37,726 posts)lets just act Nazis when we get there...
indepat
(20,899 posts)stoop to rampant illegality and feign a threat out of proportion to the actual threat to scare the people shitless so they would acquiesce to having their personal liberties shredded and a national security surveillance state implemented.
marble falls
(57,114 posts)blkmusclmachine
(16,149 posts)10 red flags that could save you from being swept under the influence of a charismatic nut job"
Learn more: http://www.naturalnews.com/036112_sociopaths_cults_influence.html##ixzz39Tvk0OOb
nxylas
(6,440 posts)Rude criticises Obama *and* uses the c-word. That ought to be enough to get this thread removed, surely?
Dustlawyer
(10,495 posts)If you are then you are above the law. You can commit War Crimes, crash the economy, repeatedly steal from investors in various scams, launder drug money, whatever. The one caveat is that you make your regular bribe payments, uh, I mean campaign donations. The sky is the limit!
If you are middle class or poor you better follow the letter of the law or YOU ARE GOING DOWN!!!
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)has been stopped. Every day brings a new revelation of how far gone this country is regarding the Rule of Law when it comes to those who are powerful.
I had a dream, way back during the old Bush era, that one day we would see Cheney's smirk wiped off his face, Rummy's bumbling 'explanations' for why we do what we do, Ledeen, Wolfowitz and the whole criminal gang arrested and tried for the murder and torture of untold numbers of human beings.
Seems like that was a long time ago and it WAS just a dream.
whereisjustice
(2,941 posts)both parties are fighting over votes from the scum of the nation.
That's exactly who Washington thinks we are.
Meanwhile, the next worldwide economic collapse is being set up on Wall Street.
It just gets worse and worse every goddamn year.
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)Welcome to DU
valerief
(53,235 posts)Nah, 'folks' is folksier.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)all sanctimonious on us thinking that torture is bad. Remember these were hard working psychopaths under a lot of pressure to do their thing.
They were just following orders.
Javaman
(62,531 posts)" W)e did some things that were wrong. And that's what that ("forthcoming" Senate torture) report reflects. And that's the reason why, after I took office, one of the first things I did was to ban some of the extraordinary interrogation techniques that are the subject of that report."
I fully expect a watered down report peppered with various excuses as to why we did such horrible things and those horrible things were apparently our only recourse.
doesn't any of this exhaust you as well?
we are a nation of fools.
Rex
(65,616 posts)Obama should be furious.