Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

Galraedia

(5,027 posts)
Wed Aug 6, 2014, 10:00 PM Aug 2014

“Pro-Israel” people aren’t actually pro-Israel and Israel critics aren’t actually anti-semites

The Right Wing and even PEPs (Progressives Except on Palestine) like to perpetuate the lie that any criticism of Israel is essentially or practically anti-Israel or Anti-semitic. This is an absurd argument for many reasons.

1) Being a hawk does not make you patriotic: When the argument comes from PEPs, it’s dishonest or delusional, because as any “progressive” or liberal knows, it’s more than possible to be critical of a government without being against its people. In the case of the war in Iraq, for instance, people who opposed the war are not “anti-American.”

2) Being a hawk on Israel is anti-Israel and anti-Israeli: It could easily be argued, in fact, that the people who did not want America to enter into a war based on lies, which would create more anti-American sentiment abroad, kill and maim and sicken American soldiers and cost trillions of American taxpayer dollars are more “pro-American” than the “USA! USA! USA!” “pro-American” patriots who supported the war. It’s a fairly straightforward and simple concept. And one that PEPs should get. And when they defend Israel by asking, “What would the United States do?” I always respond, “They would do something similarly atrocious and you, yes, you would go to a demonstration in Union Square or Washington DC to protest it. But, because it’s Israel, you don’t.”

3) Zionism requires criticism of Israel. Although many of my cohorts on the Left would disagree, you can, I would strongly argue, be a Zionist and be critical of Israel at the same time. I have problems with J Street, the (relatively but not really) left alternative to AIPAC, especially since they have refused to condemn Israel’s attack on Gaza. But I think their goal of being “pro Israel, pro peace,” is a good tactic and a legitimate position, at least in theory. But the existence of Israel and the safety and security of its people is possible only with a two state solution, which is impossible under occupation. As the late Holocaust survivor, Zionist and pro-Palestinian, honorary French ambassador Stephane Hessel said,

The future of Israel depends, in my mind, on finding a way to have a neighbor with the Palestinians who can be a good and pleasant neighbor with whom one can work. But as long as one occupies that country, that makes this terrible business of Cast Lead on Gaza—those things are horrifying to my mind.


Read more: http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/08/06/pro-israel-people-arent-actually-pro-israel-and-israel-critics-arent-actually-anti-semites/
25 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
“Pro-Israel” people aren’t actually pro-Israel and Israel critics aren’t actually anti-semites (Original Post) Galraedia Aug 2014 OP
its fucked up isnt it politicman Aug 2014 #1
You make some valid points. But if one is going to give weight to proportionality onenote Aug 2014 #2
you are right and wrong. politicman Aug 2014 #3
Can I assume that you also believe Hamas can be equated to the Nazis as well? onenote Aug 2014 #6
Hamas may have Nazi intentions withno means to ever carry them out, BUT Israel has both... politicman Aug 2014 #14
The more I think about your post, the angrier I get onenote Aug 2014 #15
its not the level of destruction and death, its the early tactics of the nazis which we believe.. politicman Aug 2014 #17
"Eerily similar"? You could not be more wrong. onenote Aug 2014 #18
Another historical fallacy in your post onenote Aug 2014 #19
i see the point you are making but... politicman Aug 2014 #20
Same could be said about the many comparisons made between Syria/Libya/Iraq/etc. and Rwanda. N/T Chathamization Aug 2014 #12
Because it works n2doc Aug 2014 #8
Kicked and recommended. Uncle Joe Aug 2014 #4
If Israel laid down their arms tomorrow and forsworn war for all time. Kurska Aug 2014 #5
+1000 leftynyc Aug 2014 #10
Even if that were true, it doesn't justify the mass murder and war crimes. DanTex Aug 2014 #13
Good post malaise Aug 2014 #7
The problem with conflating Israeli policy with Jeudaism... TriplD Aug 2014 #9
Bingo! B Calm Aug 2014 #11
Israel can't be a legitimate democracy and indefinitely occupy Palestinian land Hippo_Tron Aug 2014 #16
A more significant question re democratic legitimacy: Spider Jerusalem Aug 2014 #21
Proclamations don't have the force of law Hippo_Tron Aug 2014 #22
Except it isn't just a proclamation. It's enshrined in Israel's Basic Law. Spider Jerusalem Aug 2014 #23
Yes, a right wing nutjob government wants to trade the Arab villages to a future Palestinian state Hippo_Tron Aug 2014 #24
This wasn't a rightwing nutjob government, this was Tzipi Livni of Kadima. Spider Jerusalem Aug 2014 #25
 

politicman

(710 posts)
1. its fucked up isnt it
Wed Aug 6, 2014, 10:22 PM
Aug 2014

How did we get to a point where any criticism of Israeli crimes (Israel the country, not the Israeli people) is labelled as anti-Semitism, whilst those that cheer on and excuse the murder of innocent Palestinian children under the pre-text of 'self-defence' is ok?

How can these Israeli apologists sit their with straight faces and excuse the deaths of Palestinian children WHILST having the gall to call out and be outraged by anything they consider to be anti-Semitism.

Really, I want to know how anti-Semitism (which let me say loud and clear is wrong) is a worse crimes than supporting a country that wilfully kills 400 Palestinian children n 29 days.

onenote

(42,748 posts)
2. You make some valid points. But if one is going to give weight to proportionality
Wed Aug 6, 2014, 10:33 PM
Aug 2014

and I agree that one should, then those who try to equate what is happening in Gaza with the Holocaust (with a capital "H&quot or events occurring during the Holocaust, such as the Warsaw Ghetto, deserve all the criticism and condemnation one can muster, since in terms of proportionality, there is no comparison.

 

politicman

(710 posts)
3. you are right and wrong.
Wed Aug 6, 2014, 10:59 PM
Aug 2014

In terms of proportionality you are right, what Israel is doing to the Palestinians is no where near what Hitler did to the Jews, which was slaughter 6 million of them.

But my personal thoughts are that when people equate what Israel is doing to what they Nazi's did, they are not equating the scale of the destruction and killing, they are equating the way that Israel can feel justified in ghettoizing and killing thousands of innocent Palestinians under the pretext of 'self-defence', even though Israel is far, far , far more militarily superior.

My guess is that they are equating the way that the world leaders sit on the side lines whilst watching Israel commit its crimes, not dissimilar to the way that world leaders sat on the side lines and watched Hitler carry out the holocaust.


So you are right, Israel should not be equated to the Nazi's in terms of the scale of destruction and killing, but referencing Nazi's when talking about Israeli actions is not such a big stretch when you consider the following:

1) Israel, a nation borne because of Hitler demonizing and exterminating a entire race of people, turns around and demonizes and justifies war crimes on an entire peoples living in what can only be described as a 21st century ghetto.

2) Blockading and impoverishing 1.8 million people with no regard to how many deaths and destruction you cause with your extremely powerful military AND top it off, then turn around and try and place the blame for all the victims caused from your missiles on someone else.


So sure, Israel is no where near what the Nazi's were, but Israel has aspects to its conduct that the Nazis had before they carried out their final solution.

onenote

(42,748 posts)
6. Can I assume that you also believe Hamas can be equated to the Nazis as well?
Thu Aug 7, 2014, 06:48 AM
Aug 2014

After all, Hamas' stated policy is the destruction of the state of Israel. Hamas has used in the past, and there is no guarantee that they won't use again, the tactic of suicide bombers to kill hundreds of Israeli men, women and children in cafes and on buses. Non-military targets. Simply killing. Or are those legitimate "defensive" tactics?

 

politicman

(710 posts)
14. Hamas may have Nazi intentions withno means to ever carry them out, BUT Israel has both...
Thu Aug 7, 2014, 08:17 AM
Aug 2014

I will equate Hamas to the Nazi's when and if Hamas ever has the capability to ghettoize the entire Israeli people into a small area of land and deny them even the most basic necessities of life.

Yes Hamas has sent suicide bombers into Israel to blow up innocent people in the past and yes Hamas has stated they want the destruction of Israel in the past, BUT these things are the equivalent of me claiming I want to kill you and then poking you in the arm with a pin.

Lets face reality, Israel will never be defeated and destroyed, Israel has one of the strongest armies in the world and they have nuclear weapons that they can use as a last resort.

Israel is the way stronger party, and they are using that strength to occupy and subjugate an entire Palestinian people while stealing land and resources, instead of using that strength to forge ahead with peace.

Imagine if Israel tried a new strategy now, imagine of they said that they would allow the Palestinian people to live normal lives with bright futures and when Hamas or other groups attack Israel, Israel instead of punishing the whole Gazan people and giving a reason for the Gazan people to rally around Hamas as a resistance organisation, Israel instead showed that it would take whatever hit Hamas threw at it and still forge ahead for peace.

Sooner or later the Gazan people would look at Hamas and say to themselves that Hamas is not a resistance organisation, but is instead an organisation that only cares to stoke trouble.

Right now, Israel feeds Hamas, Israel gives Hamas the chance to say and show that they are resisting the mass punishment of Palestinian people.

Also, Israel definitely needs to stop the settlements, how can anyone in their right mind accept Israels argument of self-defence when Israel is taking over land and building settlements? How is building settlements an act of self-defence?

onenote

(42,748 posts)
15. The more I think about your post, the angrier I get
Thu Aug 7, 2014, 08:38 AM
Aug 2014

Last edited Thu Aug 7, 2014, 02:44 PM - Edit history (1)

Maybe you don't know enough about the Nazis and the Holocaust, but any comparison between the Nazis actions, intent, tactics, etc. and the Israeli's treatment of Palestinians trivializes the singular evil of the Holocaust.

To make that point is not to diminish the lack of proportionality in the Israeli response in Gaza or the conditions under which Gazans live. But to suggest that its not a stretch to reference the Nazis is obscene.

The Nazis systematically rounded up 6,000,000 Jews, put them in camps, and exterminated them in ovens, gas chambers, and by firing squads. Gaza is a terrible place to live. But to say its not a stretch to compare it to the Warsaw Ghetto, where 400,000 Jews were squeezed into 1.3 square miles is ridiculous. And Warsaw was paradise compared to Treblinka, Dachau, Buchenwald and the other concentration camps where the Nazis transported and killed Jews by the hundreds of thousands.

Israel has had in effect a blockade of Gaza since 2007; yet, Gaza has continued to have an economy. A luxury hotel opened in Gaza in 2011. Gaza is listed on TripAdvisor. The International press has access to Gaza. I trust you realize that there were no hotels in the Warsaw Ghetto, no reporters in Treblinka, no economy in Dachau. The Warsaw Ghetto would not have been listed in TripAdvisor if such a thing had existed in the 1940s.

Gaza's infrastructure and its economy have been severely damaged by Israel's overreaction. But there already is discussion of rebuilding. The Jews of Warsaw had no opportunity to rebuild their homes after the Nazis. That's because the Nazi's made sure there were no Jews left alive to rebuild them.

The Israeli's disproportionate reaction has without doubt caused unnecessary and unjustifiable death and destruction. But to say that the Israeli's acted without regard for how much destruction and death they caused and equate that to the intentional, systematic extermination of 6,000,000 Jews is a stretch. A sick, obscene stretch if made by someone who has any understanding of the Holocaust.

To say that the Israeli's acted without any regard for harm to Palestinian civilians is to ignore the warnings that were given that allowed thousands of Palestinians to avoid death. Those warnings were insufficient in many instances and shouldn't have been necessary because the Israeli's shouldn't have been responding with such disproportionate force. But I can assure you that the Germans never gave any of the citizens of Warsaw or the prisoners of Buchenwald a warning or opportunity to evacuate and avoid the gas chambers or ovens.

Between 30 and 40 percent of Gazans are 14 or younger. The percentage is higher if you include those 17 and younger. If the Israeli's were targeting children, logic would suggest that more than 30 percent of those killed by Israeli missile strikes would have been children. If the Israeli's were simply indiscriminate in their assault, you would expect children to die in rough proportion to their numbers. The death of a single innocent civilian, particularly children, is condemnable. But the fact that the number of children reported to have been killed (around 300) is half what you would expect from a targeted or indiscriminate attacks is powerful evidence that the Israeli's, unlike the Nazi's, were not hellbent on killing as many Palestinians as they could.

Finally, consider the West Bank. Despite illegal settlements that I believe should never have been built by Israeli's and that should be dismantled as part of a negotiated peace, Israelis and Palestinians (2.5 million of the latter, 500,000 of the former) live in the same area. There are no missile attacks by the Israeli's into the West Bank. There is, indeed, billions of dollars of commercial business conducted between West Bank Palestinians and Israel. There also are no rockets from the Palestinians into Israel or even into the settlements. The Germans didn't limit themselves to ridding Germany of Jews. They sought to rid all of Europe (and beyond if they could) of Jews.

So, yes, it is stretch to mention the Nazis and Israel in the same breath.


 

politicman

(710 posts)
17. its not the level of destruction and death, its the early tactics of the nazis which we believe..
Thu Aug 7, 2014, 09:29 AM
Aug 2014

Israeli is replicating.

See this is the problem with people like you, you are right to point out that the Jews under the Nazi's experienced million fold more death and destruction than the Palestinian have under the Israelis, BUT you don't ever entertain the fact that Hitler didn't just start exterminating Jews one minute after demonizing them.

Hitler first demonized the Jews, and then herded and rounded them up into ghettos where he closed them in an open air prison with no way for anything to go in and out of these ghettos.
It was bad enough that Hitler put the Jews in ghettos and controlled if they had access to food and everyday items, BUT the real bombardment and destruction of these ghettos occurred when the Jews formed some resistance in these ghettos and tried to fight for their lives rather than agree to stay ghettoized and slowly starve to death.


Now as I pointed out above, the Jews under Hitler faced a million times more hardship, destruction and death, the numbers of 6 million tell anyone with a quarter of a brain this fact, BUT we can certainly reference the initial actions of the Nazis when discussing Israel's current actions.

Think about it, Israel has herded (I concede not rounded up but herded) 5 million Palestinians into a tiny piece of land, they have blockaded and laid siege to 1.8 million people in the Gaza strip and decide what goes in and out of this strip, and when ever these people form resistance groups and try to fight for their freedom, Israel goes in and bombards the strip with disproportionate force.
The Palestinians in the West Bank are forced to accept Israel confiscating land and building settlements on it, the same way that Jews lost their property under Hitler.


So sure, it is completely wrong to compare Israel's actions to those of the Nazis when it comes to the level of death and destruction, BUT it is entirely appropriate to compare the tactics of Israel with its siege, blockade and herding of 1.8 million people into an open air prison, and its demolition of Palestinian houses, confiscation of land and building of Jewish settlements with the early actions of the Nazis before the Nazis carried out their final solution.

No one is minimizing the holocaust, what we are doing is pointing out the conditions that Israel forces the Palestinians into which are eerily similar to the conditions that Hitler forced the Jews into in the early days of the holocaust, afterall if people spoke up before Hitler officially embarked on the holocaust we might not have had 6 million Jews dead by the end, that's what we hope to avoid ever possibly happening to the Palestinians.

onenote

(42,748 posts)
18. "Eerily similar"? You could not be more wrong.
Thu Aug 7, 2014, 12:54 PM
Aug 2014

Some history.
While there was a long on again/off again history of anti-semitism in Germany, the rise of the Nazis and their persecution of the Jews of Germany and Europe started around 1933. These are the early stages of which you speak:

1933 -- Jews are barred from being in the government.
1934 -- Hitler takes control. Laws are passed (1)preventing marriage or even sexual relations between "Aryans" and Jews; (2) denying Jews citizenship (even if they were only "one-quarter" Jewish), thus Jews were denied the right to vote
1936 -- Jews barred from holding professional jobs (such as doctor, lawyer, etc.)
1938 -- Ban on awarding government contracts to Jewish businesses.
1938 -- Aryan doctors are barred from treating Jews. Since Jews cannot hold professional positions, finding a Jewish doctor is problematic to say the least.
Nov. 1939 -- at the government's urging, Kristallnacht occurs, with the destruction of thousand of Jewish homes and businesses, and the rounding up of some 30,000 German Jews to be sent to concentration camps. At these camps, the Jews are forced to engage in slave labor for the Nazis. They do not own property. They have no rights. Thousands die of starvation or are killed by the Nazis.
After that, it got worse.

Now, let's consider how this is supposed to be "eerily similar" to the treatment of Palestinians by Israel.

1.5 million Palestinians live in Israel. They have the right to become citizens. They have the right to serve in government, in the military, on the judiciary. They can be doctors, lawyers, etc. There are around a dozen Palestinian-Arab Israeli citizens in the Knesset. Palestinian Arab has been sitting on the Israeli Supreme Court for more than a decade. When an attempt was made to deny poltical parties whose goals or actions include denying the right of Israel to exist from participating in elections and to bar a specific Palestinian Arab from sitting as a member of the Knesset, those actions were reversed by the Israeli Supreme Court. Over a decade ago, the Israeli government established as a policy that every state-run business must have at least one Palestinian Arab Israeli citizen on its board of directors.

Admittedly, it is different when it comes to the occupied territories. Palestinian Arabs in East Jerusalem have the right to Israeli citizenship and the right to vote. But Palestinians in the West Bank and in Gaza are not entitled to Israeli citizenship. However, they are entitled to, and have, their own government (the PA in West Bank and Hamas in Gaza). While free movement by Palestinian Arabs is restricted in the occupied territories (limited by a permitting requirement in the West Bank and to essentially barred in Gaza) Palestinians in the occupied territories own property, can have businesses, can marry and have sex with non-Palestinians. They are not forced to engage in slave labor on behalf of Israel. While the economies of the West Bank and Gaza unquestionably suffer because of the Israeli occupation, and the economy of Gaza will suffer even more greatly due to the Israeli assault, these areas have actual economies: according to the Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics (the official statistical bureau of the "State of Palestine&quot reported that the GDP of the combined West Bank and Gaza territories increased from $1.17 billion in fourth quarter 2008 (an annual GDP rate of $4.68 billion) to $1.73 billion in fourth quarter 2012 (an annual rate of $6.92 billion). The increase, fourth quarter 2011, to fourth quarter 2012, was 3.5% in Gaza and 5.9 percent in the West Bank. The PCBS also reported increases in GDP, employment and other economic markers during the first three quarters of 2013, albeit at a slower pace than the increase the previous year. If you think the situation for Palestinians in general, or even for Gazans is "eerily similar" to the bans that the Germans placed on the Jews in the early stages of Nazi rule I don't know what to say. When Jews were deprived of their homes and property they were transported to and confined in concentration camps where they were forced to engage in slave labor. If you think something "eerily similar" to that is occurring in the occupied territories, I don't know what to say.

The situation in the occupied territories is tragic. Israel has, in my opinion, violated international law in any number of respects. But that does not make their actions "eerily similar" or even remotely similar to the actions of the Nazis. What the Nazis did was singularly horrific. You say you don't mean to minimize the "holocaust". But your arguments do exactly that. Even your presumably unintentional use of the lower case in referencing the Holocaust minimizes it. Check any dictionary. The actions of the Germans against the Jews and others are known as the "Holocaust" to distinguish those actions from other genocidal actions.

The tactics used by the Israelis against Gaza and the conditions in which the Palestinians find themselves are not "eerily similar" to the tactics used by the Nazis and the conditions faced by Jews, even in the "early stages" of the Holocaust unless one closes one's eyes to virtually all of the facts. Sadly, what the Israelis tactics are similar to are the tactics that are unfortunately engaged in by armies in every war: the use of military might against ostensible military targets that in fact cause civilian deaths in number that cannot be justified. Demonizing the "enemy" -- again, something engaged in by armies throughout history. During WWII, the US went out of its way to demonize the Japanese -- to dehumanize them as "Japs" and the "Yellow Peril" and to depict them in the most unflattering ways possible. Thousands of US citizens of Japanese origin were rounded up and sent to internment camps. Tens if not hundreds of thousands of Japanese civilians were killed by the bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Yet I cannot recall anyone here ever suggesting that the tactics of the US during WWII could be compared in the same breath to the tactics of the Nazis. I've never heard the US called a "murderer" for using the Atomic Bomb or that Truman should have been charged with a war crime. Dresden: twenty-five thousand German civilians killed by the Allied bombing. Was it disproportionate? It could be argued that it was, but I 've not heard the British Government and the US Government called murderers or compared to the Nazis for having engaged in such tactics. That comparison seems to be reserved for the Israel.

I doubt I will ever convince you, which is sad. Because when what the Germans' did becomes just a more efficient version of what all armies do -- unique only as a matter of degree, not as a matter of kind -- then history has been defiled.

onenote

(42,748 posts)
19. Another historical fallacy in your post
Thu Aug 7, 2014, 02:12 PM
Aug 2014

You make the following assertion regarding the Holocaust: "It was bad enough that Hitler put the Jews in ghettos and controlled if they had access to food and everyday items, BUT the real bombardment and destruction of these ghettos occurred when the Jews formed some resistance in these ghettos and tried to fight for their lives rather than agree to stay ghettoized and slowly starve to death."

It is hard to read that statement in any other way than as suggesting that the Germans didn't start killing Jews until after the Jews formed resistance and tried to fight for their lives. But that's simply not an accurate description.

The facts are that resistance to the Germans arose not because the Jews were rebelling against being ghettoized and starving to death. It arose because the Jews realized that the the trains that were transporting fellow ghetto residents were not leaving for labor camps, but were going to extermination camps.

The history of the most famous uprising is a good example. The Warsaw Ghetto was created in October/November 1940. It held around 400,000 Jews. Between 1940 and mid 1942, over 80,000 of the Jews of Warsaw died of starvation. Yet there was no organized resistance during that period. Rather, it occurred later, after the Nazis began transporting the Jews of the Ghetto by train to Treblinka. Between mid July 1942 and mid-September 1942, the trains ran daily and carried thousands of Jews. In that two month period, somewhere between 250,000 and 300,000 of the Jews of the Warsaw Ghetto were transported to the death camps. After a pause, the Germans planned a new wave of transports to the death camps starting in January 1943. It was only at that point, after information on the fate of the Jews transported the previous July/September period had reached the remaining residents, that the decision was made to launch a resistance to being transported, even though the Jews knew that they would be killed as a result. There was no belief that they were fighting for their lives. Just fighting to determine the way that they would die. The first wave of resistance prevented the Germans from meeting their quota in the initial January 1943 transport. The effort to transport Jews then paused again. However, in April 1943, the Germans roared into the Ghetto with the intention of killing or capturing for transport every Jew remaining. Using flamethrowers as well as artillery and other weapons, the Germans succeeded in a matter of a few weeks in killing 13,000 Jews in the Ghetto and capturing and transporting over 50,000 more to Treblinka and Auschwitz.

There were other examples of ghettos engaging in resistance, largely occurring after the Warsaw resistance. These too did not trigger the killing of the Jews -- rather they were a response to the transportation of the ghetto inhabitants to death camps. And the goal of these efforts at resistance, whether in Minsk or Krusznya or Bialystok, was not to save their lives (although some inhabitants did manage to escape), but simply to go down fighting rather than be transported to ovens and gas chambers.

So please do yourself a favor and learn the history of this singularly horrific event rather than make assumptions that distort the reality of it. The Germans didn't kill the Jews in retaliation for the resistance. They had killed and were killing Jews by the thousands when the resistances were launched as a way of fighing back against being sent to the same form of death that thousands of their fellow ghetto reisdents already had been sent to.

 

politicman

(710 posts)
20. i see the point you are making but...
Thu Aug 7, 2014, 04:02 PM
Aug 2014

Ok, thanks for the historical lesson on the holocaust and maybe me and others that reference the Nazis when discussing Israel's actions are completely wrong in doing so BUT it is extremely easy for us to make the comparisons simply because of the fact that Israel (borne from the group of people that went through the holocaust) instead of going out of their way to make everyone feel safe are terrorizing the Palestinians simply for being on a piece of land that Jews considers theirs.


Look, we have situation where millions of Palestinians are forced into what can only be a described as a ghetto. It may not be the same degree of ghetto that Warsaw was, but it definitely is still a ghetto as Gazans don't have any freedom leave Gaza and don't have freedom to import or export anything without Israeli approval. Also, Israel has calculated how much in it would allow into Gaza depending on what their latest figure of caloric intake per person is.


Israel has crammed 1.8 million Gazans into a tiny piece of land and denied Gazans basic human rights, nowhere near what Hitler denied the Jews of, but still, cramming 1.8 million people into a tiny area and denying them basic human rights is one of the actions taken by the Nazis during Hitlers reign of terror.


In conclusion, the people that suffered the most under Hitler have now become the abusers, with some aspects of their abuse looking 'eerily similar' to a portion of the abuse that Jews received under Hitler.

Let me expand on that last statement because I know you will try to pull me up on it.
Hitler did a lot more to the Jews as I have already admitted several times, but I personally cant help myself from automatically in my mind, equating Israel with the Nazis when I see Palestinian people ghettoized and think back to how Hitler ghettoized the Jews.
It may not be an even remotely valid comparison, but just the simple fact of having a group of people suffer immensely under Hitler then turn around and make another group of people suffer en masse invites the comparison.

You will never agree with the above, and I will never be fully able to not think of Nazis when seeing Israels actions today, and maybe that's our problem, I like everyone else was appalled when learning of the holocaust because there exists no justification ever for abusing or killing a mass amount of people, yet many Israelis sit quietly by and many even support their government abusing a mass amount of people under the guise of 'self-defence'.

n2doc

(47,953 posts)
8. Because it works
Thu Aug 7, 2014, 07:24 AM
Aug 2014

Not because it is morally correct, or defensible. It is essentially name calling with a history.

Kurska

(5,739 posts)
5. If Israel laid down their arms tomorrow and forsworn war for all time.
Wed Aug 6, 2014, 11:12 PM
Aug 2014

Israel would be destroyed by the weekend.

Go ahead and deny it.

DanTex

(20,709 posts)
13. Even if that were true, it doesn't justify the mass murder and war crimes.
Thu Aug 7, 2014, 07:44 AM
Aug 2014

Defending yourself is one thing, slaughtering children by the hundreds is entirely different.

TriplD

(176 posts)
9. The problem with conflating Israeli policy with Jeudaism...
Thu Aug 7, 2014, 07:31 AM
Aug 2014

is that it breeds anti-semitism as people come to think that Israels policies are Jewish policies.


Those who resort to name-calling rather than defending policy on their merits are actually helping to create what they claim to be against.

Hippo_Tron

(25,453 posts)
16. Israel can't be a legitimate democracy and indefinitely occupy Palestinian land
Thu Aug 7, 2014, 09:28 AM
Aug 2014

Which is why as a supporter of Israel, its current right wing regime frustrates me greatly. I want Israel to do better.

 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
21. A more significant question re democratic legitimacy:
Thu Aug 7, 2014, 04:16 PM
Aug 2014

can any state which proclaims itself to be "the nation-state of X people" be a legitimate democracy while a substantial percentage of its population are excluded from that definition by virtue of religion or ethnicity?

Hippo_Tron

(25,453 posts)
22. Proclamations don't have the force of law
Wed Aug 13, 2014, 11:16 PM
Aug 2014

Lots of people proclaim that the United States is a Christian nation. But our laws dictate that everyone has the same rights regardless of their ethnicity or religion.

 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
23. Except it isn't just a proclamation. It's enshrined in Israel's Basic Law.
Wed Aug 13, 2014, 11:20 PM
Aug 2014

Israel engages in ethnic cleansing of minority Arab villages to maintain Jewish demographic dominance, among other things. And Israeli negotiators in the "peace process" want to transfer majority-Arab villages (populated by ethnic-Arab Israeli citizens, remember) to a future Palestinian state (the people who live there have no say). It's pretty fundamentally racist in a way that is largely not considered normal for modern liberal democracies.

Hippo_Tron

(25,453 posts)
24. Yes, a right wing nutjob government wants to trade the Arab villages to a future Palestinian state
Wed Aug 13, 2014, 11:28 PM
Aug 2014

I don't know what to tell you other than the fact that they have some seriously racist people there, just like we have here.

I'm also not sure exactly what you're talking about re ethnic cleaning of minority Arab villages.

 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
25. This wasn't a rightwing nutjob government, this was Tzipi Livni of Kadima.
Wed Aug 13, 2014, 11:38 PM
Aug 2014

Which is considered a moderate party in Israel.

And I'm talking about the plan to demolish 45 Bedouin villages in the Negev for expansion of new development for Jewish Israelis, displacing an estimated 70,000 people and "concentrating the Bedouin population"...they actually use that word, "concentrating", by the way. http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/12/04/what-the-prawer-plan-says-about-israel-s-character.html (this particular bill was defeated, but there have been plenty of others, all with the same goals.)

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»“Pro-Israel” people aren’...