What happened to just shooting people in the leg?

[cbdo2007]

Maybe I've seen too many movies, but whatever happened to cops just shooting people in the leg if they felt threatened?? Why are all the shots now "kill shots"? I think the cops are abusing their power to live out their video game fantasies, and wonder when this all of this, feeling threatened by an unarmed person, bullshit started.

[hobbit709]

1. A dead body can't dispute your version of events.

[valerief]

51. ^^^THIS^^^ And a dead body can't vote. nt

[NightWatcher]

2. You watch too many movies. They are trained to shoot at the center of mass.

I was even trained to shoot double tap center mass.

[randys1]

3. Police are trained to either subdue or kill anything they cant control

that includes you and me

[Hooked_n_Looped]

4. Shots to the arm or shooting the gun out of someone's hand..

... Only happens in the movies.

First, it is impossible to purposefully wound someone with a gun from a distance and under stress. We humans all have these big fat arteries in both the arm and leg and if they go you will bleed out fast.

Secondly, if you aren't willing to kill someone then the trigger should never be pulled.

[treestar]

12. Why is that?

I don't quite get that.

Why can't you shoot to wound? Or pull the gun on them so they will do as you say?

If this rule about not even using it unless you are going to kill is not possible to get around, then we really should expect a lot of people to be killed by cops, and be less judgmental of them if they do. They are making a split second decision one way or the other. Too easy to Monday Morning QB that.

[Hooked_n_Looped]

16. Think of it this way...

Where would you shoot someone if you wanted to only wound them with no chance of killing them?

Maybe the hand or foot but there are no guarantees and good luck hitting it and you have to think about where the round is going to go when you miss.

It's also unlikely to stop the threat which is why you fired in the first place.

[JaneyVee]

22. The ass.

[madinmaryland]

26. If that is what you are shooting at, then they are running away. nt

[Hooked_n_Looped]

34. Ahh.. a part of the body that is within inches of the spinal cord...

Not the best idea....

[Lurks Often]

21. I think you mis-read part of the post

Last edited Tue Aug 19, 2014, 08:46 PM - Edit history (1)

" if you aren't willing to kill someone then the trigger should never be pulled" does not equal use the firearm to kill a person.

A police officer is trained to aim at center mass and shoot until the aggressor has been stopped. Yes, this does result in people dying sometimes, often it results in the aggressor being wounded, stopping the attack and then being taken to the hospital.

"Or pull the gun on them so they will do as you say?" not everyone is going to stop simply because you point a gun at them, maybe they're on drugs, or don't want to go back to prison or any other stupid reason for attacking a person pointing a gun at them. There in lies part of what the statement "if you aren't willing to kill someone then the trigger should never be pulled" comes from. Essentially if you are not willing or able to shoot another human being (and there is no shame in that) then do not own a gun for self protection, because if you bluff and fail, the attacker will probably take the gun away and use it on you.

Shooting to wound is illegal in almost every state in the country for several reasons: if you are not in fear of your life or grave bodily harm, you have no legal right to shoot someone and if you are in fear of your life or grave bodily harm, why aren't you to shooting to stop?; the legal liability of missing a shot and it hitting an innocent person; it is very hard to INTENTIONALLY hit an extremity or other non-vital area consistently under stress for even a very good shooter, much less the typical police officer who usually isn't a very good shot.

[Glassunion]

5. You've seen too many movies...

[MFM008]

6. leg and arm wounds

can be fatal as well, hit an artery... Bullets tumble, you get shot in the shoulder it tumbles to your heart.
Bullets are not meant for the human body...ANY body.

[onenote]

7. Yes, you've watched too many movies.

[DI Slider]

23. Yes, they have

Gunfights or violent criminal attacks happen nothing like on Law and Order

[dilby]

8. Center of mass.

You shoot only to kill, if you shoot to wound then your life was never in danger and you should have not shot in the first place. Also a bullet through the arm or leg will still have a lot of velocity and can hit an innocent bystander.

[former9thward]

9. Handguns are really inaccurate at any distance in quick stressful situations.

The only people who can shoot well with them are actors. I once represented a client who emptied his handgun at a cop while in the back of a squad car. The cop in the front seat emptied his at my client. Neither person was hit. So cops aim at the biggest mass and see what happens.

[Raine1967]

10. You know, it's kinda sad that this question has to be asked.

Although I understand why it's being asked, all I can think if is what ever happened to community policing?

In my opinion that we have to ask why cops shoot to kill is a big indictment on the entire situation. Using a gun should be the very last line of defense when it comes to people who have a job that used to be to 'protect and serve'.

Something got flipped along the way.

That said, I totally understand why black communities all over the nation never felt that way about the police.

[Maedhros]

18. Another question: didn't patrol officers used to have partners?

If there would have been two police officers present, maybe they could have found a way to deal with the situation without resorting to panicked gun play.

[Lurks Often]

24. Budgetary issues for most cities and towns

They can only afford X number of police officers and that number of police officers has to cover the entire area of the town 24/7.

About the only time police in most suburban and rural areas are two to a car is when things have really hit the fan, or one of the officers is brand new and the other officer is a training officer.

[Raine1967]

43. That's another good question.

Did the shooter have a partner? (I don't know, myself)

That said yes, patrol officers in mid size and larger communities used to have a partner.

It's all so messed up.

[Maedhros]

44. Well, they had to cut the budget to afford all the military gear. [n/t]

[Blue_Tires]

11. Never happened outside of Hollywood...

More often than not, in real life when fleeing perps are shot in the leg or foot, it's because of errant marksmanship from the shooter...

[shedevil69taz]

13. Yeah anything other than shooting (at least aiming) center mass

Is nothing that should happen in real life...a firearm is a tool for implementing LETHAL force nothing else even in the trained hands of military and police...stun guns and mace are common non-lethal means

[Rex]

14. Didn't you ever see Dirty Hairy?

He was famous for 'blowing away' criminals, right after giving a snappy one liner.

[sarisataka]

15. It has always been a myth

Any firing a gun at a person has the risk of death; that is qhy there is no "shooting to wound " or warning shots.

If the situation is not life and death- don't shoot

[Eleanors38]

17. Oh, it's still around. In Hollywood.

[X_Digger]

19. Yes, you've seen too many movies. n/t

[Xithras]

20. A leg shot actually has a higher chance of killing you than a stomach shot.

There's a lot of mass in the abdomen, and only a few parts of it are instantly lethal if damaged (heart, lungs, etc). Your leg, on the other hand, is generally less than 8 inches in diameter and contains BOTH your femoral artery and your femur, which can explode like a grenade when hit by a bullet. If either the bullet or the bone severs that artery, you're dead in around 3 minutes.

Contrary to what Hollywood would like us to believe, there is no "safe" place to shoot a person. Statistically speaking, the most survivable place to be shot is actually the lower abdomen (the lower the better), but there are still plenty of things in there that can kill you if they're hit. And even if you survive there's a huge chance that you'll spend the rest of your life paralyzed or wearing a colostomy bag.

[jwirr]

25. The best example of this problem is the man they killed this afternoon. Two policemen, one man

with a knife coming toward them. The shot him dead. Did they even think about shooting him in the leg?

[ManiacJoe]

36. They did not. Nor should they have.

Shooting to wound is the wrong response to deadly force (knife attack). If you are not shooting to stop/kill, then you do not fear for your life. If you do not fear for you life, lethal force is not legal to use.

[ProfessorGAC]

27. They're Hiring People Who Want To Be A Sniper

But, they're not really good enough to hit anything but the center of mass at short range.

Anybody can do that.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

28. As the image thread points out, when you've got a hammer, everything is a nail.

Got a gun? Shoot to kill. Six times, if that's what it takes.

[flamingdem]

29. What about rubber bullets, stun guns

or martial arts?

There has to be a better way

[randome]

37. I was thinking rubber bullets, too.

Seems like that would be a good middle ground between bullets & tasers. Especially in smaller communities.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]The truth doesn’t always set you free.
Sometimes it builds a bigger cage around the one you’re already in.[/center][/font][hr]

[flamingdem]

41. I'd like to see the knife, bet that it's not that big a deal

The cop called it suicide by cop, but I think it's more like homicide by fearful cops who lack better tools to manage a mentally ill individual.

[GitRDun]

30. What about other methods to subdue

Taze the guy. Throw a frying pan at the guy lol! Don't they take self defense classes? Two cops can't disarm a yahoo with a knife? Really?

[Jenoch]

42. A knife will go through a Kevlar vest.

If I were a cop, I'd be more afraid of a perp with a knife at close quarters than one with a gun.

[GitRDun]

45. Lol I still like the frying pan idea! eom

[Jenoch]

47. I've never seen a duty belt with a position

dedicated to a frying pan.

[name not needed]

31. I don't get why police just don't tickle people into submission.

[In_The_Wind]

49. That's an interesting idea.

[Stellar]

32. Chris Rock: Oh they shot him in the leg, must've been a white guy..

Chris Rock on the Jon Stewart show year ago...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/12/chris-rock-daily-show_n_5672100.html

....around the 2 minute mark.

[951-Riverside]

33. You're missing the big picture here

Its cheaper to kill people.

Why would a police officer go through the trouble of civil suits, testimony, hearings, settlements, etc when you can just blow a guy's brains out and get it over with plus get 2-4 weeks paid vacation?

Plus a large percentage of unarmed people they kill are mentally ill, drunk, homeless, disabled, have drug additions, have prior records and/or minorities.

Think about that for a moment then think about Germany in 1940's

[NutmegYankee]

35. By law they are to only use the gun to stop an immediate threat.

People who haven't fired a handgun often have this impression that they are super accurate from movies. While the gun is very accurate by design if held still and properly sighted, the hand and arm tend to wobble a lot and cause the aim to vary greatly. Hold a laser pointer out along with a 2 lb weight in your hand with the arm extended and you can observe the movement. In an emergency, not only is the gun being withdrawn quickly, but the cop isn't in a stance to reduce arm movement nor are they taking time to line up the sights. Aiming at center mass gives them the best chance to stop the threat as an extremity wound isn't often immediately disabling. The goal is to stop the threat. If the other person has a gun, punching a hole in their leg won't do much to stop them from firing. Unlike in the movies, the bullet doesn't knock you down or back. Newton's third law would require any shot capable of knocking a person backwards to do the same to the shooter holding the gun.

In legal practice, intentionally aiming for a leg implies that the threat was not immediate (as you had time to aim) and you are guilty of felonious wounding. And as pointed out above, a leg wound can be fatal due to rapid blood loss.

[randome]

38. I'm surprised the 'gamers' haven't come down on you for that remark.

After all, we know that violent video games and movies have absolutely no effect on anyone. (Not trying to hijack this thread, btw, just wanted to point that out.)
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Birds are territorial creatures.
The lyrics to the songbird's melodious trill go something like this:
"Stay out of my territory or I'll PECK YOUR GODDAMNED EYES OUT!"[/center][/font][hr]

[LiberalArkie]

39. You can't claim a kill

[delphi72]

40. Yeah

You watch too many movies.

[Aerows]

46. Police are trained to shoot to the chest

It's a safety issue.

That stops a perpetrator. In theory. In reality, it kills a bunch of people, but the cop is safe. "Perpetrators" not so much. Cop goes home to dinner, "perpetrator" goes to the morgue.

What he has "perpetrated" is left up to the cop that is eating dinner.

[Blue Owl]

48. Hobbling is so last year

[Iron Man]

50. Or using a tazer?

Nobody deserves to be shot and killed, especially when unarmed.