My Dad was shot and wounded at Inchon in the Korean War. He described

[VanGoghRocks]

it as feeling like he'd been hit in the chest with a sledgehammer. So I find it extremely hard to believe that anyone, once shot, could continue to 'charge' like a bull.

Is the story that Wilson's defenders are pushing -- that Mike Brown continued to charge him like some sort of enraged bull -- even humanly possible? Except in Hollywood movies, can anyone continue to charge once they've been hit once or twice?

If the pain my Dad describes is at all applicable to the pain from other gunshot wounds, I just can't see anyone continuing to 'charge'.

[nomorenomore08]

1. It's almost as if, on a subconscious level, they see him as some superhuman monster.

Why that is, I can only speculate, but it probably has a lot to do with his size and (perhaps) skin color.

[VanGoghRocks]

3. Thanks for responding. This latest cover story seems to stretch the

bounds of credulity. But it seems to play into the confirmation basis of racists who see in the story their prejudices confirmed.

[IronGate]

2. My dad was hit in his right side in Vietnam

and he says it dropped him to the ground immediately.
I find it hard to believe that Michael Brown kept charging even after being shot, but I wasn't there, I don't know what exactly happened.

[VanGoghRocks]

4. Thanks for responding. None of us (not even Wilson) know what exactly

happened. I place my faith in the Scientific Method and the forensic sciences to reconstruct exactly what did happen. But I don't know anything about whether someone who's hit with a gunshot gets to keep moving.

[IronGate]

6. I guess that it would depend on where the gunshot wound is.

In Iraq, we had Marines hit in our platoon, but kept fighting, so, yeah, if the wound isn't debilitating, then one could keep moving.

I'm in agreement with you, forensics and reconstruction of the shooting should give us the answers as to what actually happened.

[oneshooter]

32. There is also the difference in the energy dump

Between a handgun hit and a rifle hit.

[pinboy3niner]

5. It depends on what you get hit with, and where, and what damage it does

It's not the kind of question that can be answered by simply thinking it through.

I was hit by AK-47 fire in Vietnam, but I wouldn't presume to draw any conclusions about this case from that experience.

[VanGoghRocks]

8. Thanks for responding and for surviving. Well, my Dad got shot

in the chest. I believe the shot perforated one of his lungs, although I'm relying on some rather vague memories at the moment. (My Dad, a Jarhead through and through, said the North Korean soldiers were tough fighters, high praise indeed coming from him

It was that idea of it feeling like a sledgehammer hitting him that got me to thinking that it must hurt like a motherfucker, no matter where it hits. And I was thinking, OK Newton's laws of motion states that a body in motion tends to stay in motion. But the theory that Brown was 'charging' Wilson, and continued to charge even after getting hit, seemed so far-fetched that I thought I would ask people what they thought.

[Travis_0004]

39. There are thousands of shootings caught on tape

How people react is well doccumented

Your dad was possibly shot with a rifle? AK 47 or sks?

Both shoot 7.62x39. It has an energy of 2000 J.

What did the cop use? 40 s&w. That would have an energy of 500 J or 75% less.

This overaimplifies thing since distance affects energy shot location and different people react differently.

A shot going through the chest causes a lot more damage than a hit to the arm. And if a bullet exits your body it will not transmit all the energy.

[VanGoghRocks]

40. I know enough about gun stuff to know when I am way, way out of my depth. I

do think my Dad got shot by a rifleman in the North Korean infantry. Beyond that, though, I couldn't tell an AK-47 from an SKS to save my life I'm also pretty sure the shot went through my Dad's chest and that the bullet did not lodge there, based on his scars. But I shall have to ask him.

[Travis_0004]

41. Both guns fire the same bullet, so its largely irrelevent

I would assume the sks has more power (due to a longer barrel length) but the differnce is probably less than 5%.

But rifles have significantly more power than a handgun.

Im glad to hear your dad recovered and is doing well.

[oneshooter]

45. Inchon, Korea. The NKPA and the Chinese army of that time used the

7.62X54 cartridge. A lot more powerful than the SKS round.

[Travis_0004]

46. Mosin Nagant?

I assume there was a mix of different weapons used.

The Nagant is stupid poweful. Ive owned one. Much more recoil than even a 30-06 (although a metal buttstock would give it more recoil than a rubber butstock on a modern gun

[Warpy]

7. No, I find it likelier that he was shot as he crumpled down.

Still, we don't know a hell of a lot at this point, so it's all guesswork.

We just know a black kid with no weapon got gunned down by a cop.

[VanGoghRocks]

11. Thanks for responding and well put. I keep finding myself tearing up over these

past 10 days and it is the god-damnedest thing.

[Warpy]

12. Hard not to if you've got a kid that age.

Here the last straw was a homeless guy who was camping illegally, probably messing up some yuppie's view. He was surrendering peacefully but I guess he wasn't moving fast enough because some knothead threw a flash-bang grendade at him. It wasn't peaceful after that and the cops shot him at a distance of about 10 yards. One cop didn't turn off his lapel cam and the whole thing went viral.

We had the demos here, too, but they didn't come out dressed like Robo Cop with a bunch of tear gas and military hardware.

It was enough to bring the Feds down hard on the local cops and I don't think we've heard the last of it yet.

[VanGoghRocks]

14. Is 'here' Albuquerque and the man James Boyd? If so, I read about the case and was deeply

saddened by it. IIRC, I was posting about it in the Operation Fullerton Facebook page awhile back (which, as its name suggests, got its real impetus from the police killing of Kelly Thomas back in 2011 for total and complete bullshit).

[Warpy]

18. Boyd was no angel, he had a long rap sheet and mental illness

that made him a real pain in the ass. However, he didn't deserve to die for camping in the wrong place.

Boyd was just the 26th person they'd shot because it was more convenient than waiting for him to futz around and surrender at his own speed.

If anything, I do hope the Feds have managed to make the paperwork so nightmarish that they go back to considering firing their guns a last resort. Not wanting to do paperwork in their off duty time at home is a great deterrent.

[VanGoghRocks]

29. All of us are guilty of something. Doesn't mean any of us deserve summary execution. Thank

you so much for your plain-spoken eloquence (and props to you for the dark humor about burdensome paperwork

[davidpdx]

9. Thank you to your dad for his service

I actually live in South Korea and lived in Incheon several years ago. The city I live in now was part of Incheon at one time before parts of Incheon and Seoul were taken and separated from the two into a new city. I've been out to Wolmi-do and seen the statue of Macarthur. IMHO not enough people realize the sacrifice people like your dad made (and continue to make on a daily basis) to keep the South Korean people free.

[VanGoghRocks]

16. Thank you for responding and I will pass along your thanks to my Dad when I next see him or speak

with him. I must tell you that my Dad, a pretty hard-core Democratic Socialist, now has very mixed feelings about his service in Korea, MacArthur's legacy and the war's morality and justifications. In his defense, he was only 18 at the time he enlisted because he wanted to see the world; although he voted for Eisenhower in '52, he now says, "That's the last time I made that mistake!"

[davidpdx]

22. While I wasn't alive at the time (heck my mom had just had her 2nd birthday a few weeks prior)

I honestly believe in Korea we made the right choice in hindsight. Enlisting may not have been the wisest choice, but then again he did get to see the world. If you ever get a chance, you should come over and see the country he fought for.

[tblue37]

10. I addressed that nonsense in an OP--as well as other ridiculous excuses cops come up with

for killing black men:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025413634

[VanGoghRocks]

13. Thank you for responding and for calling it 'nonsense'. This gives people like me who don't know

shit about forensics and gunshots the space to feel as though our skepticism is validated.

If you don't mind my saying so, yours is a fucking awesome post. I've bookmarked it so I can go back and re-read it later (and maybe respond if I feel like I'm qualified to). Looks like it engendered a substantial discussion too!

[tblue37]

15. Thanks. Actually, it got a lot of recs, but only 9 responses--and 3

of those were from me, responding to others.

I was actually hoping for more discussion when I posted that thread, but I guess maybe everyone just agrees with it (which explains the recs) but feels there is nothing more to add.

I teach college English. Analyzing language, being sensitive to the implications and nuances of words--that is what I do. I am also 64 (my birthday was Monday), so I have quite a lot of life experience. I know what is plausible and not plausible human behavior, and I can also recognize when language (as in those claims) is being used deceptively.

[tblue37]

17. BTW, you might also like to read one of my responses in that thread--

I keep going round and round and round about those claims.

They are repeated like a catechism.

When cops are beating up someone they are handcuffing (all too often an innocent bystander or a peaceful demonstrator), they chant, "Stop resisting," in a recitational monotone, when it is obvious that the person is not resisting at all.

Reporter Ryan Reilly (HuffPo) says that when he was arrested in a McDonald's a couple of nights ago, he put his hands behind his back and stood quietly to be handcuffed. The whole time he was cuffing him, the cop kept telling him to stop resisting, and he kept saying, "I'm not resisting." But the chant is so automatic to them now, that they keep pronouncing it all the time, even when there is clearly no reason to do so. It is obvious that they have been taught to say this, and just as obvious, from innumerable videos, that they are often saying it as they beat up a completely unresisting person.

I believe that the excuses for lethal force that I list in my OP are taught the same way, and since we can see that they trot the same excuses out every time, we need to start making a big noise about how doggoned implausible they are.

[JDPriestly]

19. Could Mike Brown have been staggering? Could he have been falling or leaning forward and

staggering? I know nothing about this kind of thing.

I cannot believe what is happening in Ferguson and all the reactions on all sides. It is like something fictional.

Here I am sitting in California in a multiracial community that is so diverse in so many ways -- gender combinations, lifestyle combinations, ages, races, ethnicities. And we all live in harmony. In fact we tend to be very, very friendly with each other. We help each other out. No one cares what race someone else is, what ethnicity, what sexual preference -- at least no one I have noticed. Maybe I just don't notice it. We have a good number of African-Americans, lots of Spanish-speaking and Asian people. Then a white minority. Lots of gay and lesbian couples. I just don't understand what is wrong with some parts of America. They seem to be stuck in the 1950s. If they only knew what they are missing. It is great to live in a neighborhood in which people just plain like each other.

Now, I'm not claiming there are no racists in my part of town. But I haven't run across them recently. The only instance I know of was more than a decade ago. An African-American moved in behind us. Someone left a nasty note on his door. Nobody knows who. He was a really nice guy, worked for a major law fiem -- and had lots of friends in the neighborhood. But that is the only instance I know of.

Hopefully, as California goes, so goes the nation. Maybe the situation in Ferguson will set off some soul-searching that will result in genuine change.

[VanGoghRocks]

26. Dunno where you are in California, but I would encourage any and all DUers who visit

Los Angeles to pay a visit to the school cafeteria at Santa Monica City College on a typical school day to see a visual representation of the 'melting pot.' It's really something to see and quite uplifting. (I'm sure this same scene plays out at numerous other locales throughout the LA area, but it's where I first noticed it.)

[JDPriestly]

34. We still have a ghetto in South Central to a certain extent. There is also East LA, and there

are other areas. But basically, after 1992, LA grew up a lot. We really are a melting pot, and we all benefit from it. The divisions here are more along economic lines. The West side tends to have a lot more money than those of us in the East.

The problem here is that the wealthy West side grabs all the cultural goodies. In my area, the Southwest Museum has been virtually gutted by the Autry which purchased it (rescued it in Autry's view) and now does not know what to do with the wonderful historic shell that sits on a hill in our area. The Southwest Museum is a shrine to the economic devastation that the middle class and impoverished in our country are suffering thanks to the growing power of the 1% in the US.

If you live in LA and don't know the Southwest Museum, it is only open a few hours on Saturday now.

http://theautry.org/mt-washington

Open every Saturday, 10:00 a.m. to 4:00 p.m.
234 Museum Drive, Los Angeles, CA 90065
Free Admission

The building is, in my opinion, poignantly magnificent sitting on the side of the hill. Looks very lonely these days. It is another sad face of the economic injustice in our country. Not as horrible as Brown's murder, but a constant reminder for those of us who live in this community.

[VanGoghRocks]

36. Thanks for the tip and I guess I know what my wife and I will be doing this coming

Saturday!

Since you mention the Autry, thought I should put in a pitch for the free Shakespeare being done at Griffith Park this summer. My wife and I have seen 12th Night and Taming of the Shrew. Both great (FREE!) productions and a toss-up as to which is funnier\better.

Bring a blanket b/c it gets cold and sometimes damp after the sun goes down.

http://www.iscla.org/griffith-park-festival/

[arthritisR_US]

20. From what I understand Micheal was not struck

in the chest, it was his right arm and head. I'm not holding my breath for an indictment from this 'grand' jury because it's not even being conducted in a fair manner. Pigs protect pigs.

[VanGoghRocks]

23. Thanks for responding and that's my understanding also. I don't enough about bullet wounds to know

whether getting hit in the arm or hand would disable a charge. My Dad's comments made it sound like it would because the pain would be too severe. But one of the commenters upthread said that in Iraq he had seen soldiers who were wounded by bullets 'keep fighting.' So I guess I'll have to defer to the forensic evidence and expert testimony. The whole story just doesn't pass my smell test but that's based on my feelings (which at the moment are totally raw) and not on science.

[pinboy3niner]

30. There are a lot of examples of soldiers who kept fighting with bullet wounds

Just look up the citations of Medal of Honor recipients. Here's one for a friend, First Lieutenant Stephen Helden Doane:

Medal of Honor citation

"For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity in action at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty. Serving as Platoon Leader when his unit engaged in a tactical operation, abruptly encountered an enemy force concealed in protected bunkers and trenches. Three of the leading soldiers were pinned down by enemy crossfire. One was seriously wounded. After the efforts of one platoon to rescue these men had failed, it became obvious that only a small group could successfully move close enough to destroy the enemy position and rescue the trapped soldiers. Although fully aware of the danger of such an action, he crawled to the nearest enemy bunker and silenced it. He was wounded, but continued to advance on the second enemy bunker. As he prepared to throw a grenade, he was again wounded. Undaunted, he deliberately pulled the pin on the grenade and lunged with it into the enemy bunker, destroying this final obstacle. His supreme act enabled his company to rescue the trapped men without further casualties. The extraordinary courage and selflessness displayed by this officer were an inspiration to his men and are in the highest traditions of the United States Army."

http://army.togetherweserved.com/army/servlet/tws.webapp.WebApp?cmd=ShadowBoxProfile&type=Person&ID=46495

[freshwest]

21. People who go for the raging bull meme got it from media. Ain't true, never was.

[VanGoghRocks]

24. I agree, it failed and fails my smell test. And when this story is brought down, as I trust

science and forensics will do, I wonder what the next trial balloon cover story will be.

[JustAnotherGen]

27. +100

[Avalux]

25. Well, you know, Brown was a big guy and was hopped up on pot!

That's the narrative some want us to believe - that Brown was a MONSTER. A BIG SCARY MONSTER. And there are those who will believe it without question.

[VanGoghRocks]

28. Yeah, it definitely plays to people's pre-existing prejudices. But I wondered whether it

was even scientifically\medically possible and the verdict (at least here for now) seems a bit mixed on that score.

[Avalux]

31. What was even scientifically medically possible? Please clarify. n/t

[hack89]

35. Handgun wounds are very survivable - rifle wounds are a completely different matter.

and you can never discount the body's automatic responses to fear and pain.

[VanGoghRocks]

37. Thanks for responding and your post explains a lot. I'm pretty sure

my Dad was shot and wounded by a DPRK infantryman with a rifle, not some officer with a sidearm. Or maybe it was a machine-gun. (I'll have to ask him next time we talk.)

I think I've seen one too many Dirty Harry movies.

[Lurks Often]

38. Reactions vary from person to person

Here is a link to a well documented incident from 1986

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout

William Platt, who did most of the shooting, was hit early on by a bullet that passed through the arm and into the chest stopping an inch from the heart, based on the autopsy report, the wound was considered non-survivable, he continued to shoot and move for the next 90 seconds and was in the process of trying to escape when a wounded FBI agent went up to the car and emptied his revolver into the 2 shooters.

I view this as when the police began the large scale transition from 6 shot revolvers to semi-automatic pistols holding more rounds and/or more powerful ammo, body armor and the introduction of rifles to regular patrol officers.

[Glassunion]

42. The person in this story was shot 22 times. 17 were in the "center of mass" and he did not stop

Every single human is going to react differently. This guy was shot over 20 times, and it was only that last shot that stopped him.

http://jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/102197/2b1COPfo.html

[VanGoghRocks]

43. Thank you for responding and, Jesus, that is one hell of a story (like something out of

Reservoir Dogs or Bonnie and Clyde).

Did they ever figure out why the driver started shooting?

[Glassunion]

44. IIRC he was wanted for murder.