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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsHuman Rights Watch accuses Kiev of using "indiscriminate and unlawful" shelling in civil war.
These Ukrainian tactics are the kind of butchery our country's diplomatic efforts (not to mention our own tax dollars) are being expended to support. If this were happening to anyone without resources our energy corporations and Wall Street speculators wanted to steal, our government would surely be demanding this slaughter of innocents stop. As it is, our leaders only applaud the destruction and killing, as if it were the preferred outcome, and negotiation some kind of dirty word.
Read more at: http://rt.com/news/184400-hrw-ukraine-indiscriminate-shelling/
Man inspects damaged residential building in the Mirny district of Lugansk, hit by artillery fire.
HRW: Civilian death toll in E. Ukraine rising due to 'indiscriminate and unlawful' shelling
Human Rights Watch has condemned the illegality of Ukrainian actions in east Ukraine, ascribing direct blame to Kiev for the rising death toll in the Lugansk Region, which by local estimates has reached 300 since May. The organization visited the city on August 20-22, performing a survey of the situation and carrying out interviews with locals who in one way or another were affected by the heavy bombardment, which had people cowering in fear in basements for weeks without water or electricity. Ever since Kiev’s attempts to retake the city from the local defense forces, massive power cuts, food and water shortages, and network interruptions have taken place. The situation resembles so many other humanitarian crises, with long lines of people queuing for basic supplies – at least those not afraid to leave their basements.
“With communications cut, there is less information available about the situation in Lugansk [Luhansk] than other areas in the east,” Ole Solvang, senior emergencies researcher with the NGO said. “But the truth is, local residents are subjected to terrifying daily shelling, much of it apparently unlawful, and that the number of civilian casualties is steadily rising.”
HRW saw that many attacks failed to distinguish between civilians and combatants, which are a violation of international law and the laws of war. Evidence of the indiscriminate nature of these attacks could be seen in the use of weaponry not meant for areas where precision is required. Projectiles with 152mm caliber aren’t intended for such missions. Nor are 350mm Smersh rockets and cluster munitions deliver by 220mm Uragan (Hurricane) rockets.
“The use of explosive weapons with such wide-area effects in a city full of civilians is completely irresponsible and will almost inevitably lead to civilian casualties… Whether used by government or insurgent forces, those responsible should be held to account for this callous disregard for civilian life,” Solvang continued.
(snip)
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Keefer
(713 posts)Russia shooting down a planeload of innocent civilians?
Just wondering.
another_liberal
(8,821 posts)Probably since who is actually guilty of committing that outrage has yet to be established.
The black box recordings have not even been released yet. Evidence of aircraft-machinegun-bullet-sized holes in parts of the wreckage have not been officially examined, along with many other unanswered aspects of the crime. At this point, Kiev seems to be doing all it can to obstruct any further investigation.
Rassah
(167 posts)But, as completely expected, Russia is blaming it on Ukraine, even though Ukraine had absolutely no reason to shoot down any planes at that point, since Kiev's position, and understanding, was that Russia is not invading yet, and thus there are no Russian military planes to shoot down.
another_liberal
(8,821 posts)That recording is no more evidence than our "evidence" that Saddam had WMDs. I think Kiev will have to make up something a great deal more believable. If they want to convince anyone who isn't already committed to their cause, that is.
Rassah
(167 posts)why Ukrainian army would want to shoot down a plane in a war that wasn't even an air war yet? Or why they would need anti-air missiles to begin with? Did the separatists seize Ukrainian MIGs or something?
Bodhi BloodWave
(2,346 posts)the incident they had where they released some audio a while back to prove Russia was behind another incident, the audio supposedly being between a Russian politician i believe and a separatist or 'undercover' Russian(can't recall which).
There was one minor problem about the audio however...the politician they claimed were in the audio had been dead for a while so unless Russia gained the means to raise the dead then said audio had to be a forgery
Rassah
(167 posts)... if I were to show you a single Russian lie too. Deal?
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)about the 'grainy images' of, what were told were supposed to be, 'tanks' or something, released by the US which they apparently got from a 'Private Corporate Entity'.
We do farm out our National Security now btw.
Seems no one believed they were seeing what they were told to see.
Sort of reminded me of Colin Powell's similarly 'grainy images' which we were told to 'see' as 'proof of Saddam's WMD.
Most of us Dems, try as did, just couldn't 'see' what we were supposed to see. And it turns out we were right. There really was 'NOTHING TO SEE" there. Colin ruined his 'legacy' with that display, which he admits to his credit today.
Perhaps that is why no name was attached to the latest 'grainy images' from that Private Corp. Ruining legacies can be depressing.
So, you seem to have proof of who shot down that plane. Malaysia and the victims' families have been asking for justice but so far as I know, the subject has been dropped from the news for some reason. I wasn't aware the mystery had been solved.
Rassah
(167 posts)... just always assume that the exact opposite is true. In the original article, note the following:
"Unlawful government and insurgent attacks in and around Luhansk..."
"The precarious security situation in the city made it difficult to conduct full investigations of individual attacks. ... interviews ... suggest that ... the attacking force used weapons in populated areas that could not be targeted with sufficient accuracy."
The gist of the article is that it's almost impossible to tell who is actually responsible for the shelling, made even more difficult by the fact that a lot of the Ukrainian military artillery was captured and is now being used by the insurgents. Most likely there is blame on both sides. Also, keep in mind that most of these cities have already been evacuated, with many refugees now living in western part of Ukraine and Kiev (schools just started yesterday, and classes have almost twice as many kids as they normally do), and few people remain. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the civilians were insurgents in civilian clothing as well.
And then there's this: http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/08/28/ukraine-rebel-forces-detain-torture-civilians
another_liberal
(8,821 posts)Many others, however, do disagree.
Rassah
(167 posts)Russia had over a century of practice spreading propaganda. No one would argue that they aren't good at it.
another_liberal
(8,821 posts)Because Western propaganda is the truth? Seriously, how many times lately have we been lied to or misled by Western media, often at the encouragement of Western governments?
By posting stories from Russia Today News I'm merely offering another point of view on the Ukrainian crisis, one largely uncontrolled by the forces which determine our Western media's take on the story. Do we really have to enforce a unipolar World in regard to news of the day too?
Rassah
(167 posts)It sounds like a catch-all of "anyone outside russia I don't like."
How many times have we been lied to by "western media?" Much much much less than we have lied to by Russian media. For one, all of Russian media is literally owned and controlled by Russia. At least "western media" is somewhat independent, and owned by different companies, countries, and governments. Instead of posting and believing things from the website owned by the country doing the actual invading, why not listen to independent sources on the ground, or news from the people being attacked, who are actually going through it personally?
FSogol
(45,579 posts)
Rassah
(167 posts)That's apparently (and admittedly) what they did when they invaded Georgia:
La Lioness Priyanka
(53,866 posts)“Grad rockets are notoriously imprecise weapons that shouldn’t be used in populated areas,” said Ole Solvang, senior emergencies researcher at Human Rights Watch. “If insurgent and Ukrainian government forces are serious about limiting harm to civilians, they should both immediately stop using these weapons in populated areas.”
another_liberal
(8,821 posts)HRW is suggesting ethnic Russian Separatists were using rocket mortars to destroy civilian residential areas inside their own lines, residential areas which they knew were still occupied by their own families and friends? I think you are reading a meaning into that statement which was never intended by the author.
I'm quite certain we can safely assume the mention of insurgents forces at all was simply to retain the NGO's right to neutrality. The crimes which Human Rights Watch has thankfully brought attention to were committed by the Ukrainian forces and their mercenary hirelings.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,403 posts)That's actually in the RT article, but I expect you didn't read it, or you erased it from your memory, like you did the declarations of independence by the rebels.
You know, RT is a far more reliable reporter of the facts than you are. What you say you're 'quite certain' about is complete fantasy on your part.
another_liberal
(8,821 posts)That is how some wish to interpret what HRW said. At no point does the release say separatists have indiscriminately shelled the residential areas where their own people live. It only says, in a neutrally even-handed way, that neither side should be committing such crimes.
The fact is, of course, that Ukrainian forces are the only ones who are employing artillery barrages and bombing attacks against such targets in Lugansk.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,403 posts)That would explain why you are so badly informed about Ukraine.
another_liberal
(8,821 posts)(sigh)
Rassah
(167 posts)you believe that the separatists are actually fighting for the people in those areas, and those people actually support the separatists. As if the separatists are just moving across the land, completely uninhibited, with more and more people joining them as they go, and only fighting the Ukrainian army when they run into them. I don't know if that was ever even the case, but at this point those "separatists" are basically warlords, forcefully taking over cities, instituting their own rule, kidnapping and torturing anyone they suspect is against them, and even fighting entire towns of people who resist (did you read that other Human Rights Watch article?) They are not above shelling "their own people" because they don't consider people in those towns as their own. They only see them as areas left to conquer. For instance, Mariupol, a town way in the east that they are moving towards, is completely against them, and is preparing to defend itself against the separatists. Do you think those separatists will get to Mariupol, be told "no, thanks, we want to stay with Ukraine," and just move on? Also, do note that all the news published lately has been "separatists take the city of ...", not "the city of ... joins separatists in their fight."
La Lioness Priyanka
(53,866 posts)and suggest that you do too.
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
edhopper
(33,651 posts)critical of Russia, Putin or the insurgents?
Or are you just an RT aggregator?
another_liberal
(8,821 posts)There is plenty to criticize the Russian government for, and that side of the street is already being worked very well around here. They hardly need my help.
Please criticize President Putin all you want, maybe it will even do some good.
I just feel compelled to write and quote in opposition when people start to suggest the United States needs to arm fascists in Ukraine, station troops in Eastern Europe and generally prepare for war with the Russian Federation. For us to attempt that kind of military adventurism is madness, plain and simple.
edhopper
(33,651 posts)so I do want to ignore your posts after all.
Thanks
another_liberal
(8,821 posts)Your prerogative.
edhopper
(33,651 posts)I live in a free country, unlike Russia.
Rassah
(167 posts)When you said
I just feel compelled to write and quote in opposition when people start to suggest the United States needs to arm fascists in Ukraine
which fascists are you talking about? Here are the results of the election for Ukrainian government:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_presidential_election,_2014#Results
The ones that are actually fascists won 0.7% of the vote. The ones that may be accused of being called fascist (pro-European nationalists) won 8.32%, and now have one single seat in parliament. Who are the fascists?
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)Since we're using HRW as a source, I'll just leave these here for public consumption...I'm pretty sure the OP won't have anything to say about these since he has no room to magically say HRW are a bunch of Washington-owned propagandists, so bye for now!
http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/07/02/russia-human-rights-defender-attacked
http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/07/15/still-demanding-justice-five-years-after-natalia-s-murder
http://www.hrw.org/russias-olympian-abuses
http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/08/29/russia-foreign-agents-law-hits-hundreds-ngos-updated-august-29-2014
http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/08/18/russia-protesters-found-guilty-flawed-case
http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/08/06/russia-must-recognize-ukraine-rebels-human-rights-abuses
http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/08/04/russia-independent-journalist-found-dead
http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/07/30/russias-backward-roll
http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/07/08/russia-chechen-activist-leader-arrested-beaten
http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/07/06/dispatches-russian-orphans-disabilities-life-obstacles
http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/05/02/dispatches-russian-orphan-dies-while-tied-bed
http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/06/29/russia-anti-lgbt-law-tool-discrimination
http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/06/09/dispatches-russia-not-just-hit-men-should-face-trial
http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/06/20/dispatches-white-phosphorus-white-lies-or-what
http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/05/23/ukraine-anti-kiev-forces-running-amok
http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/05/15/dont-ignore-whats-happening-inside-russia
http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/05/15/russia-rights-group-labeled-foreign-agent
http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/04/24/dispatches-russian-police-crash-lgbt-film-viewing
http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/03/13/dispatches-black-thursday-moscow
http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/02/17/russia-olympic-detentions-peaceful-protesters
http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/02/17/kremlin-s-olympic-crackdown
http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/02/12/russia-justice-fails-environment-activist-appeal
another_liberal
(8,821 posts)Everybody's seen tons of that stuff already.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)by dismissing the core source of your own OP once you get some opposing information thrown in your face...
Tell the truth: You've just been taking a piss and winding people up all this time, haven't you? I cannot insult your intelligence by pretending you've actually been serious this whole time...
Go ahead, read them...You might just learn something...
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)You can't cite HRW for one thing and then dismiss all that other stuff from them out of hand. It's logically inconsistent and makes you look like a pretty big tool. Is HRW a credible source for you or not? If you're going to say "it depends on if I agree with them" then you might as well not bother with a source at all!
C'mon chief, i know you can do better.
another_liberal
(8,821 posts)I don't know what you're even talking about.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Evidently you find HRW credible enough to use as a source. Alright, that's fair, I regard them as a valid source, myself.
Then Blue Tires posts a bunch of links from HRW regarding actions by Russia... and you call them "Russia-bashing stroylines."
Now if you were to say, I dunno, that HRW's reports on Russia don't cancel out their reports on Ukraine, that's one thing, and makes sense - two wrong don't make a right, after all. But no, you dismissed 'em as "russia bashing storylines"?
If I'm misreading your dismissal there, then I have to ask for an explanation for what you were going with, because, I'm a little confused.
another_liberal
(8,821 posts)I assume that those offenses will be well covered here. They are aren't they?
Please criticize Russians all you want. I hope you help embarrass them into changing their ways. My purpose here, however, is to try and counter, as much as I can, the forces which are driving my country toward a military conflict with another major World power. Those forces are not to be found in Russia or in Russian actions. They are much closer to home.
The Magistrate
(95,264 posts)"It is a personal hatred of Russia on the part of some . . .
Russian laws have insulted their life style, so they demand we fight a third World War to assuage their wounded pride.
I, for one, am not ready to get on that particular bandwagon.
A. L."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014881926#post185
A flat statement that laws establishing persecution of gay people are no more than 'insult to their life-style', and that gay people are pressing for WWIII to 'assuage their wounded pride'....
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)It's a simple question...
another_liberal
(8,821 posts)Of course they are a legitimate and credible source! I quoted them in my OP, didn't I?
Nowhere on this string have I criticized HRW. I have criticized how their statement on violations of human rights in Ukraine's civil war was being interpreted by some on this comment string, but I find no fault with their actual statement.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)you should be criticizing both instead of only looking one way, then...
The Magistrate
(95,264 posts)It is not always the case a commentator has such an interest....
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)You may have gotten me hidden in the other thread, but you aren't gonna do it in this one...
another_liberal
(8,821 posts)Once you write it up here, it is here for all to see.
Just saying.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)Then I'll consider taking that time-out you suggest
Keep on alerting...You know you want to...Because you're cornered and you know it
another_liberal
(8,821 posts)Because it wasn't.
(take a break, B T)
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)Way to stand up for what you believe in...I admire your courage and your ability to construct effective arguments...
another_liberal
(8,821 posts)And goodnight to you.
pampango
(24,692 posts)Human Rights Watch documented in detail that these same insurgent forces have been running amok — taking, beating and torturing hostages, as well as wantonly threatening and beating people who are pro-Kiev. We also documented that they are implicated in at least one targeted killing of a prominent local political activist.
Insurgent forces, so strongly supported by Russia, have also committed other violations. In a report released yesterday, Human Rights Watch documented that insurgent forces have endangered medical staff and patients, violating the laws of war. The insurgent forces have threatened medical staff, stolen and destroyed medical equipment and hospital furniture, occupied hospital buildings and wards, and expropriated ambulances for transporting active fighters.
But government forces are not the only ones to fire Grad rockets into civilian areas. In the end of July, Grad rocket salvos twice hit Olenivka, a small town just south of Donetsk controlled by Ukrainian armed forces. According to local authorities, the two attacks injured four civilians, destroyed eight houses and damaged 12, including a school. Using the same methodology we established that this time insurgent forces were most likely responsible. Firing Grad rockets into populated areas is equally unlawful when done by insurgent forces.
http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/08/06/russia-must-recognize-ukraine-rebels-human-rights-abuses
From the UN: serious human rights abuses committed primarily by the armed groups who have seized
The report produced by the UN Human Rights Office documents a wide array of serious human rights abuses committed primarily by the armed groups who have seized control over a large part of the Donetsk and Luhansk regions in eastern Ukraine since mid-April. It also documents violations committed by Ukrainian forces in their efforts to recapture territory, from which armed groups are conducting operations and in which they have located military objectives.
According to the report, civilians fleeing the intense and prolonged fighting in eastern Ukraine have been targeted and killed; others have been prevented by the armed groups from leaving the cities of Luhansk and Donetsk as the Ukraine Government tightened its blockades around the two main strongholds of the armed groups. Supposedly “safe” corridors established by the Ukrainian forces to enable residents to flee from these cities, traversed areas where the fighting was ongoing. Civilians using these corridors were subsequently killed or injured.
Reports of serious human rights abuses by the armed groups have continued, including abductions involving physical and psychological torture and ill-treatment of the detainees, with many subjected to forced labour. While it is not known precisely how many people still remain in captivity, the report says that, as of 17 August, at least 468 people were believed to be still detained by various armed groups.
The report also notes that in the Autonomous Republic of Crimea, harassment and discrimination have continued against Ukrainian nationals, Crimean Tatars and other minorities. “No serious attempts have been made (by Crimean authorities) to investigate allegations of human rights abuses committed by the so-called Crimean self-defence forces following the March ‘referendum’.
http://www.un.org.ua/images/stories/press_release_English_final_29_August.doc
another_liberal
(8,821 posts)Civil wars are never fought by "good guys."
The indiscriminate shelling and bombing of residential areas (the subject of my OP) is a crime Ukraine alone is guilty of committing. That much should not even be in dispute.
pampango
(24,692 posts)That sounds like "indiscriminate shelling of residential areas" to me. If you're saying the separatists don't have planes so they are not doing any bombing, I'll give them credit for that.
another_liberal
(8,821 posts)Last edited Tue Sep 2, 2014, 08:18 PM - Edit history (1)
One incident when a Separatist battery hit a Ukrainian unit in a village. It was undeniably wrong, and the fact civilians were injured and civilian property damaged is a crime; nevertheless, how can that one incident even be compared to the months-long, day-and-night bombardment of the city of Lugansk (once home to half a million people) a bombardment in which hundreds have been killed and thousands wounded?
Shall we get back to the topic of the OP then?
Will anyone be along to LOL Human Rights Watch and the United Nations as information outlets? Or is discrediting the messenger rather than engaging the issue a one way street depending on who is being accused of crimes against humanity? New and improved Sensible Ideals™! Apply them at your convenience.
[font color="white"]Watch for the alert in 3 . . . 2 . . . 1
another_liberal
(8,821 posts)I was criticizing how their statement had been interpreted on this string. The statement itself I find no fault with.
OilemFirchen
(7,143 posts)"Take no responsibility for anything and apologize for nothing."
pampango
(24,692 posts)Russian-backed insurgent forces in eastern Ukraine are arbitrarily detaining civilians and subjecting them to torture, degrading treatment, and forced labor. They also have detained civilians for use as hostages.
Beginning in April 2014, armed fighters supporting the self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic (DPR) and Luhansk People’s Republic (LPR) have captured hundreds of civilians, targeting presumed critics, including journalists, pro-Ukrainian political activists, religious activists, and in some cases their family members.
“Pro-Russian insurgents are regularly committing horrendous crimes,” said Hugh Williamson, Europe and Central Asia director at Human Rights Watch. “There are solid grounds to be seriously concerned about the safety and well-being of anyone held by insurgent forces in eastern Ukraine.”
Human Rights Watch is also concerned by evidence of extra-judicial executions, and other civilian deaths in custody. For example, Human Rights Watch came into possession of three death sentences against civilians apparently issued by the Sloviansk insurgents’ summary war tribunal. Two were marked “executed.”
http://m.hrw.org/news/2014/08/28/ukraine-rebel-forces-detain-torture-civilians
