Zimmerman's Tragedy: He Bought into the Gun Culture Myths...

[Junkdrawer]

The result: An innocent 17 yr old kid is dead and Zimmerman himself faces (deservedly) 2nd degree Murder charges.

Many times after a murder, we hear the neighbors say "____ was such a nice guy, I had no idea he was capable of ____". Not this time. George did what he did being George. George played out to its tragic consequences what many, many gunners fantasize every day.

And that, by the way, is why George has been and will be defended so vigorously by the gun community. If they were honest, they would all wear T-shirts with George's what-did-I-do-wrong? face on it and the caption "I am George Zimmerman".

[LAGC]

1. I don't think that's true at all.

Most gun-owners I know who pack heat don't wish or hope for a confrontation at all. And those that do end up having to fire in self-defense and take a life, it changes them forever.

It's more about having a tool available in case of a true emergency. (Just as its wise to keep a fire-extinguisher in case of fire.)

Of course, the main problem here is that Zimmerman went out of his way looking for trouble. Someone like that really shouldn't be packing heat, and his concealed-carry permit should have been revoked right out the gate. Anyone who thinks having a gun gives them the right to act more bold or aggressive shouldn't be packing in the first place. Thankfully, these people are in the extreme minority.

[Junkdrawer]

2. So you want must-issue laws revoked nationwide?

Extensive background checks for anyone who wants a CWP?

[LAGC]

6. You mean shall-issue laws?

I don't know what you mean by extensive background checks. Florida already prohibits anyone convicted of a felony or misdemeanor domestic violence from getting a permit, and they do check. I don't think people merely accused of such crimes should be prohibited.

I'm not sure what sort of tests could have predicted George Zimmerman would have acted in this fashion. Perhaps more training time drilling the point home that having a permit does NOT give you the right to act like a vigilante? Of course, there will always be a few who don't internalize that message...

[Junkdrawer]

10. An employment check would have revealed a guy who was fired as a bouncer...

for being too violent.

And what was the need? I see a big difference between a fire-extinguisher and a hand gun.

When all the facts of this case are revealed, I'll bet that George pulled the gun (tool?) because he thought it would stop the "perp" from struggling. Instead it scared the shit out of Trayvon and caused him to scream for help for 30 seconds or so and then, when no help came, try to slap the gun away. George then decided he needed to use the tool.

[EFerrari]

20. Some attorney mentioned on DN! about 2 weeks ago that a study found

hundreds of CC licenses had been issued to people in Florida who were banned from having them because of felonies. I found one that was done in '95 which disputes NRA claims that criminals don't apply for permits: 1) Criminals do apply for licenses 2) They get them and 3) CC license holders do commit crimes.

http://www.vpc.org/studies/cccrimst.htm

And that was before Florida fell to the wingnuts so the conditions which allowed this process to be thwarted probably hasn't improved in the last 15 years or so.

[LAGC]

34. You could be right.

I'm glad this matter is going to trial, at least, so all the facts will come out.

He really shouldn't have been carrying a gun for his neighborhood watch duties, something the Neighborhood Watch Association warns about.

[Baitball Blogger]

47. With his daddy's connections, George Zimmerman would have received a permit,

regardless of a background check.

[el_bryanto]

4. Whether or not they are in the extreme minority

They are pretty vocal; the rhetoric of the NRA and their like often does play out in fantasies of protecting themselves from enemies.

Bryant

[EFerrari]

8. You're comparing apples and flashlight batteries.

If gun culture doesn't promote confrontation then how did it happen that the NRA came up with SYG in Florida? There is no black lobby in the Florida statehouse that promotes crimes against white women.

[izquierdista]

12. He must have confused it with Rock Ridge.

[WorkBoots]

30. SYG laws aren't about murder

It about self defense. Zimmerman (in my opinion) murdered that young man and I've never seen the NRA advocate murder.

[EFerrari]

39. And yet, here we are, where SYG was invoked by the city of Sanford

as the reason Zimmerman couldn't be arrested.

[X_Digger]

44. And yet, Zimmerman was arrested. n/t

[Baitball Blogger]

55. After the public stepped in to add pressure.

If this had remained in the county, Zimmerman would still be free. His father would have had time to pull the social strings and the locals would be backing George Zimmerman very loudly.

[X_Digger]

57. Which highlights a different problem.

If, as EFerrari asserted, SYG were a bar to arrest / prosecution, then it wouldn't matter which SA/DA were on the case.

[Baitball Blogger]

83. I don't think you understand how it works here.

The law is secondary. Public opinion is everything. The local authorities use the spaghetti test. If an issue sticks to the wall, they prosecute. If only a few people gander on to the problems and that person is not relevant in their way of thinking, the issue gets buried.

So it always matters which SA/DA is on the case.

[X_Digger]

90. No, I think you missed the point I was making..

If SYG were a bar to prosecution, then he would never be prosecuted, regardless of which SA/DA had it on their plate.

The real issue is a racist PD that has a long, well-documented history of not prosecuting suspects when the victims are other than white. e.g. the incident with one police chief's son beating a black homeless man, or the incident where another officer's son avoided prosecution for another beating of a black man.

[Baitball Blogger]

99. I think there are two very clear issues.

One will involve Zimmerman and whatever his DA comes up with to ward off the second degree manslaughter; and the second is an internal investigation into the SPD and the Seminole Cty DA.

[AlbertCat]

56. It about self defense.

So... it's about taking the law into your own hands... vigilanties.

SYG laws assume your judgement is sufficient to determine when a gun is necessary.

Fine.

Then make all conceal & carry applicants go thru the same training police officers do, and check up on them regularly to see if that training is being used correctly.



What SYG really is is the paranoid mindset of Bush's "preemptive strike" mentality... which worked out SO WELL, didn't it? It's that conservative wild west fantasy.

[Pachamama]

14. What a twisted analogy....

[Lizzie Poppet]

23. However, in terms of pointing out idiotic stereotypes...

...it made a good point. An analogy can succeed on several levels and still succeed on others.

[EFerrari]

27. No, it really doesn't.

There is no comparison between racial stereotypes and images promoted by groups like NRA and ALEC.

[Lizzie Poppet]

37. Of course there are comparisons.

There are always comparisons to be made between two things, particularly when they fall into the same broader category (in this case, analogies). In this case, the analogy was between idiotic stereotypes, and it was an apt one...for all that it failed miserably on other levels.

[EFerrari]

41. Except calling those two groups of images "idiotic stereotypes" is a false comparison.

So yes, you can always make comparisons but that doesn't mean they are valid ones.

[Lizzie Poppet]

51. I say it's perfectly valid.

Both are stereotypes, both are inapplicable to the vast majority of persons in the group they are stereotyping...and are thus idiotic.

[Baitball Blogger]

52. Gun owners are defined by the extremes within their midst.

Since we're talking about lethal weapons, all it takes is 1%. They are, afterall, supporting their right to bear arms. If we want to keep that small minority in check, then the law must apply to all. That's how a democracy works in order to avoid discrimination.

[magical thyme]

5. actually Zimmerman does have friends and neighbors saying he was a nice guy

and his tragedy runs a little deeper than that. Look to the parenting by denial and bail-out.

He played out to tragic consequences what many wanna-be cops fantasize and a few rogue cops truly play out every day.

[Junkdrawer]

7. That's the point. George was a "nice guy" with a gun and a temper....

doing what he thought was right - defending his community by chasing down and restraining what he thought was a perp. And when push came to shove, he used the "tool" the gun culture told him was appropriate.

[Hoyt]

19. Without a gun, GZ and a lot of gun culture would have stayed in their car. Trayvon would be alive.

[calimary]

86. Hear, hear.

[aikoaiko]

9. What gun culture myths are you talking about?

Murder is still murder and self-defense is still self-defense even among those considered in the gun culture.

[Junkdrawer]

11. We all live in a gun culture. How many TV shows/movies have the hero pulling his gun....

when he senses he's in a dangerous situation?

[aikoaiko]

22. Yes, I think this cultural issue does permeate our society.

But by and large those who get labeled as gun culture supporters, followers,or acolytes are law and order types who differentiate between justified and unjustified uses of firearms.

I am not opposed to someone defending themselves if he or she has a reasonable belief (which is not a feeling or only up to the "defender" to define) that grave danger is imminent. Do you not agree?

Of course, if the belief is judged to not be reasonable, then there are consequences to be paid. I think everyone agrees with that.

[AlbertCat]

60. How many TV shows/movies

are real life?


None!

What about that is hard for people to understand?

[PavePusher]

102. If you are using fictional entertainment as a reflection/guide of your real-life actions....

You Are Doing It Wrong.

[gratuitous]

13. Don't expect the acolytes to understand what you're saying

In the land of the High Church of Redemptive Violence, a culture awash in violence and violent weapons, where violence is the first tool of diplomacy (also the second, third, last, and every one in between), the horrible facts of an impossible failure of violence will be denied, rationalized, justified, and gainsaid to a fare-thee-well. If members of the gun community were honest, they probably wouldn't be in the gun community, where everyone packing heat is a law-abiding citizen right up until the moment they aren't. At which point, the gun magically disappears from the equation, and all that's left is a tragic occurrence brought on by one party or another's irresponsible action. We then are treated to a rousing chorus of hosannas in praise of sacred violence and its holy relics.

[KG]

15. word.

[Junkdrawer]

17. I hope, after all the screaming and denials are done....

that the lessons of this teachable moment will sink in.

[safeinOhio]

18. It's all fun and games,

until someone gets hurt. Then they all get to huddle up and vote, good shoot, bad shoot.

[hack89]

21. That culture that is experiencing historically low violent crime rates?

put aside the emotions and look at the facts - gun violence is at a 50 years low after 20 years of steady decline. You have never been safer. Next year you will be even more safer.

For example, look at the drop in the number of murder and non-negligent manslaughter deaths - from 24,703 in 1992 down to 14,748 in 2010.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/tables/10tbl01.xls

How can you say with a straight face that guns are making America more dangerous?

[EFerrari]

25. That chart doesn't measure gun violence. n/t

[hack89]

29. True - it just measures a less violent society.

gun ownership up yet violence down - interesting combination.

[hack89]

31. This one does.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/tables/10shrtbl08.xls

On edit:

in 1994 guns were used in 16,305 murders - in 2010 guns were used in 8,775 murders.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/1995/95sec5.pdf

A nearly 50 percent reduction in gun violence - pretty good wouldn't you say?

[EFerrari]

38. The biggest change in the firearms portion is not a decrease in gun crime

but an increase in the number of guns of unknown type used to commit murder.

Firearms, type not stated 1,354 1,705 1,825 1,828 1,939

[hack89]

40. A 50 percent drop in murders committed with firearms from 1994 to 2010.

get out of the weeds and look at the big picture.

[EFerrari]

43. Where are you finding that in that table?

[X_Digger]

46. Look at the 'total firearms' line. 8,775 in 2010.

In the pdf, you'll see that in 1995, 16,305 were killed by any firearm.

[hack89]

49. I edited my post to add a 1995 report

These are the two tables I got the numbers from.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/1995/95sec5.pdf

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/tables/10shrtbl08.xls

[Hoyt]

100. It's not because of more guns. And the rate would be lower if we'd done something about guns before.

Instead, you would have us coddle the NRA and other right wing gun organizations for another decade so that there will be another 100 million guns in circulation to deal with. And I won't even get into what the presence of guns does to people like Zimmerman, Loughner, JE Ray, and every other gun loving yahoo that would be unknown today except for what a gun enabled them to do.

[hack89]

101. Never said it did. Just pointing out that more guns did not cause more violence.

that's all.

[X_Digger]

42. As does this one..

In 1993 there were 1,054,820 firearms incidents, in 2009 that number is 326,090.

http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/glance/tables/firearmnonfataltab.cfm

[gratuitous]

65. Oops, I forgot one

And thanks to hack89 for bringing it up: The bogus "quote" of something you never said put forward as the clincher of a non sequitur argument. I'll try to remember to list that dishonest, sleazy tactic in the future so that folks don't have to risk looking like nitwits by putting it forward.

[hack89]

67. You are condemning a "violent" culture that has steadily become less violent

less violent to the point that the vast majority of Americans have never been safer their entire lives.

Wouldn't more and more people embracing a violent gun culture logically result in more violence? It would appear that the violence you think is inherent in the the "gun culture" is nothing more then the product of your fear and imagination.

[PavePusher]

103. Then you should practice what you preach.

"...where everyone packing heat is a law-abiding citizen right up until the moment they aren't. At which point, the gun magically disappears from the equation, and all that's left is a tragic occurrence brought on by one party or another's irresponsible action. We then are treated to a rousing chorus of hosannas in praise of sacred violence and its holy relics."

Nitwits? Indeed...

[bongbong]

85. What a laugh!

No other factors accounted for the lessened murders, right?

My own favorite theory is that global warming is the reason for the lessened murder rate. Just as provable as your assertion.

[hack89]

87. I made no assertion that more guns led to fewer murders.

There is no link between levels of gun ownership and violence.

You are right that we have to avoid simplistic explanations or solutions to our problems.Like blaming the "gun culture" for violence. There are many factors for lessened murders.

[AlbertCat]

59. Perfect!

But remember.... cars kill people too!

[coalition_unwilling]

70. 60s Activist H. Rap Brown, imho, said it best: "Violence is as American

as cherry pie."

[calimary]

88. No kidding.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

16. I think Zimmerman is a tiny little pussy man

who needed a gun to make him feel bad-ass.
Now he's going to go to prison to live with a bunch of real hard asses, and he won't have his gun.

which is better than he deserves

[left coaster]

24. "pussy man"? You mean a man with feminine qualities (used to imply a negative, such as cowardice)?

The accurate, non insulting to women descriptive to use would be COWARDLY man. You wouldn't use the term "faggy man" to imply weakness or cowardice, would you? No, I imagine not. Language matters.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

35. no. as in "lil' fraidy cat"

and the whole historic etymology of similar phrases comes into play.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=fraidy-cat

[MineralMan]

26. Kind of a bad choice of words there, I think.

Just sayin...

[Viva_La_Revolution]

32. normally I don't use that kind of language

but I tried other adjectives, and they just didn't feel accurate or strong enough.

[Bake]

28. I own a gun, and I know how to use it.

I hope I never have to use it to take a life. But if somebody breaks into my home, knowing my family and I are there, I assume he's not there for a social call. If it's down to him or me/my family, it's going to be him. But I hope that never happens.

That is true of my friends who own guns also. We don't fantasize about blowing somebody away. We hope we never have to.

Bake

[EFerrari]

33. And yet, shit happens. This is an anti-gun violence group site

and they have these stats up with footnotes:

International/Comparative Statistics

The U.S. has the highest rate of firearm deaths among 25 high-income nations.66 Another study concluded that among 36 high-income and upper-middle-income countries, the U.S. has the highest overall gun mortality rate.67

The overall firearm-related death rate among U.S. children under the age of 15 is nearly 12 times higher than that among children in 25 other industrialized nations combined.68

The firearm-related suicide rate for children between the ages of 5 and 14 years old in the United States is nearly 11 times higher than that in 25 other developed countries.69

Americans own far more civilian firearms – particularly handguns – than people in other industrialized nations and U.S. gun laws are among the most lax in the world.70

http://www.lcav.org/statistics-polling/gun_violence_statistics.asp#3

[ieoeja]

53. That you "assume" he's not there for a social call is why "you" should not own a firearm.

In my view you have just labelled yourself as too irresponsible.

[Bake]

58. What would YOU "assume" a home invader is there for?

In my view, you just labeled yourself as unable to understand a figure of speech. So don't break into my house in the middle of the night. Or daytime either ... I might be home.

Any person who would not defend his/her family is too irresponsible to have a family, in my view.

Bake

[ieoeja]

73. With a couple exceptions they have been friends or family.

There was one stranger who decided I was poverty stricken and left me some stuff. It so happens my spartan existence is by choice, not due to monetary problems. But I appreciated the thought.

Another exception said, "oops, wrong place," then walked out. Took my wallet that was sitting by the front door while he was at it, but I didn't notice til later! Shit happens.


On the other side of the coin, a gal in college asked me to help her deliver a care package to a family in Indianapolis once. When we found them not home, she tried talking me into breaking into the place to leave the package which I declined on the grounds that it was a damned stupid idea. We were still arguing about it when someone showed up ending that predicament.

[laundry_queen]

82. This happened recently to a friend

some drunk guy walked into her house at 6 am (her husband forgot to lock the door when he put the dogs out 15 min earlier).

Her husband saw the guy and chased him out. They found out later he was a neighbour's friend that was visiting from out of town. He had a family, and was on vacation with his old school buddies. He had been at another house party, drank a bit too much and was trying to find his friend's house. Could you imagine the tragedy if someone shot him? THAT is why I'm not a fan of guns.

[ieoeja]

91. I have never had a problem with the right to keep and bear. It is the "need to kill" that bugs me.

The pro-gun side went horribly wrong by portraying this as a need for protection against criminals. I have always agreed with the argument that the 2nd Amendment serves as a check-and-balance on gov't power. But the protection argument couldn't go anywhere without first convincing people that they *needed* that protection.

I grew up on a farm. I spent many hours, day and night, walking around that farm. Unarmed. And I was no different than everybody else. In those days (60s and 70s) had someone spoken of the need to carry a firearm to protect against the wildlife or to keep a loaded gun in the home -- back then the commonly accepted rule #1 in responsible gun ownershp was: unload the weapon before it enters the house -- in case of a home invader ... they would have been labeled a paranoid nutcase. Even years later when Indiana passed a concealed carry law, one relative's boyfriend showed up at a family dinner sporting a firearm and insisting that it was necessary for protection. My family, all of whom own firearms, ridiculed that poor man mercilessly.

Not to mention my father and I loved making fun of all these guys because it had *never* been illegal to carry firearms openly! Yet when "concealed" carry was passed there were suddenly people everywhere openly carrying.

Alas, today I have relatives who will not walk their farm without a firearm to protect them from the critters. I guess it was just amazing luck that nobody had been killed by any wild animals in the last 100 years or so while everyone was walking around unarmed.

And here we see it again. The argument is being made that is "right" and "necessary" to kill an intruder on sight. I don't go into the gungeon because this kind of sick, perverted thinking is prevalent down there. When the Zimmerman thing first popped up they came out of the gungeon and ganged up on everyone. I was glad to see they mostly went back to where they belong.


Worse yet, in my experience most adults seem to think children don't hear them unless the adult is actually talking to the child. How many children lacking the filters of experience hear these hyperbolic arguments grow up believing exactly what they hear: if a stranger enters the house unannounced, shoot first.

In fact, could this be how the poster who started this subthread got this way?

[Lizzie Poppet]

63. I strongly disagree.

A scenario of forcible entry into an occupied domicile is a perfect illustration of justifiable use of deadly force in self defense.

[AlbertCat]

61. We don't fantasize about blowing somebody away

But if somebody breaks into my home, knowing my family and I are there, I assume he's not there for a social call. If it's down to him or me/my family, it's going to be him.


OOPS!

[The Magistrate]

77. Exactly, Sir: Fun To Watch A Fella Give Himself Away Like That

Part of the problem seems to be limited self-awareness, or a limited ability to be honest with oneself.

[slackmaster]

36. Anyone who has had any serious training in self-defense knows that is a crock of shit, Junkdrawer

[The Magistrate]

79. Nonesense, Sir

Anyone who has any real knowledge of fighting knows that you have to be prepared and eager to act if you are going to have a chance of prevailing. You cannot be these things without a good deal of mental preparation, engaging in imagining, in visualizing yourself performing the act. It is a degree of mental effort persons will not put themselves through unless they enjoy it, or are under duress requiring them to perform it.

If you are not ready and willing to kill, a gun is of no more use in a confrontation than a handkerchief, and you will not be willing and ready to kill unless you have thought a good deal about doing it.

[rrneck]

81. Sich thinking is indeed a morbid business

albeit necessary for the proper use of the weapon. Such training also includes the responsibilities and ramifications of shooting someone before and after the fact, training that Mr. Zimmerman either failed to get or most likely thought he could ignore.

[PavePusher]

104. "eager"?

Sorry, willing=/=eager

thought a good deal about doing it=/=eager

You are either projecting, or making assumptions not based on facts in evidence.

[slackmaster]

107. No, TM, you obviously don't get it

The very first thing taught in any decent self-defense class is to avoid getting into fights in the first place if you possibly can.

If there is any possibility that a prosecutor can make a case that you sought a fight when you didn't have to, your chances of being able to claim that you used force in self-defense are greatly diminished.

That is where George Zimmerman screwed up!

[The Magistrate]

108. Comments In Reply To This Make It Easy To Discern Who Has And Who Has Not Fought As An Adult

[Baitball Blogger]

45. You're right. There's more like him.

What he did was the natural progression of tough talk. Very common in the area. Believe me there is group shock in the county and state as right-wingers are saying, "You mean it won't be so easy to kill black people and other undesirables?"

[fascisthunter]

48. Indeed... I love the "Guns are bringing violence down"

BS... straight from the "RIGHT WING" NRA.

[hack89]

54. So you can prove that "guns are taking the violence up"?

how about some hard numbers?

[Lizzie Poppet]

62. I would agree that this is a "correlation =/= causation" scenario.

There is a fair bit of evidence (most all of it statistical analysis, fwiw) that seems to indicate at least a partial a disjunct between rates of civilian firearms possession and rates of violent crime. that is to say, that the former seems to have no predictable effect on the latter.

[Johnny Rico]

50. Definition of "gun culture":

Erik Luna, Associate Professor at the University of Utah College of Law, describes the differences between a "pro-gun culture" and an "anti-gun culture" in the United States and describes some traits of a "pro-gun culture" as follows:

They share a belief that the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution enumerates an individual right, (as further elaborated by Justice Antonin Scalia of the SCOTUS). Generally they see people as trustworthy and believe that citizens should not be prevented from having guns unless they have done something to show that they are not to be trusted with them.
They share a belief that guns provide some level of protection against criminality and tyranny. This ranges from a feeling that it is good to have a gun around the house for self-protection, to an active distrust of government and a belief that widespread gun ownership is protection against tyranny.
They are generally responsible with respect to firearms handling. They have an awareness (or internalization) of either Jeff Cooper's Four Rules or the NRA's Three Rules, providing for safe handling of guns and try to abide by them when handling firearms.
They support, widely and in principle, the gun rights associated with hunting and other outdoor sports activities, although these activities are not always practiced by all within the gun culture. Some members of the gun culture remain avid collectors and shooters but this is not universal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_culture#Present-day_gun_culture_in_the_United_States

[marshall]

64. The thug culture has really had a detrimental effect on our youth

Hopefully we will collectively see the light as a result of this tragedy.

[Dachor]

66. They have guns too

The hard truth is, everybody who wants a gun, can have one. That means that the man who breaks into your house might have one, convicted felon or not (given that guns can be, and are sold illegally to these people,) and I would rather be the man with the gun so that I can protect my family.
Packing heat is another story; my gun stays at home in my bedroom, for one sole purpose, to defend myself against home intruders. I am well trained with it and have a permit. Packing heat serves no purpose other than to aggravate tense situations. I understand that there may be extenuating circumstances that call for a person to be armed, such as living in an area that has high levels of violence where your person might be at risk daily. OK, that's a good reason, but if you cant see a kid wearing a hood without feeling the urge to shoot him, you have NO RIGHT to carry a firearm.

[Junkdrawer]

71. I could live with that.

I would love, love, love to have our gun laws move back to that point.

[Johnny Rico]

74. Gun laws aren't "moving back"...they're going forward. Observe:

[Junkdrawer]

76. I know.

Everyone keeps using the words "perfect storm" in regards the Trayvon murder.

I think the perfect storm is just over the horizon.

Increasing Population + Ignorance + Failing Economy + Record Gun Ownership = Lord Help Us All

[Johnny Rico]

78. And "Lord Help Us All" and "perfect storm" translates in this context to...what, exactly?

What sort of scenario are you envisioning?

[Junkdrawer]

80. I have to run, but a move from a society of laws to ethnically isolated war lords...

The New Rome breaking down to the New Dark Ages. There may be ways out, but it would involve radical change and a move from Rugged Individualism to Enlightened Democratic Socialism.

[rrneck]

68. The culture wars...

Deflecting voter attention, dividing the electorate, and enriching the 1% since 1980.

[Lizzie Poppet]

69. hit.nail.head

It's a perfect issue with which to promulgate division, too (just like abortion).

[MrScorpio]

72. He's not just defended by the gun community...

I've just spent some time on the Yahoo message boards.

But apparently the bigots and white supremacists love Zimmerman too.

[The Magistrate]

75. There Is A Considerable Over-Lap, Sir....

Not all 'gunners' are bigots and white supremacists, but pretty near white supremacists and most bigots are 'gunner' types....

[HappyMe]

84. Zimmerman's 'tragedy' is that he

is a racist, over zealous cop wannabe.

You know, the words 'Zimmerman's tragedy' are kind of making me sick.

[Odin2005]

89. Trayvon is dead becaise Z-man is a racist POS, not because of "gun culture".

Every time the anti-gun nuts go off on how this is the fault of SYG they distract from the REAL cause, which is RACISM.

[HappyMe]

92. Exactly.

[Hoyt]

93. In our society, racism and guns-used-to-intimidate often go together.

Without guns, most racists would simply remain the impotent, worthless fools they are.

[Johnny Rico]

94. Bank robbery and guns often go together as well.

So what?

[Hoyt]

96. Yes they do, fortunately there are not tens of millions of bank robbers.

Where I live, the gun stores were packed after Obama was elected by people adding another gun to their collection/cache.

[Johnny Rico]

97. And adding a gun to one's collection is bad...why, exactly?

[HappyMe]

95. Not necessarily.

You can not be hired because of racism, you can have your home or place of worship vandalized, you can be beaten, bullied with words.

[Odin2005]

105. The Gun Control movement started because white people were scared of the Black Panthers.

One of the original gun control advocates was them governor Reagan.

[Hoyt]

106. Nowadays, we all need to give em up, at least in public.

Last edited Thu Apr 12, 2012, 10:38 PM - Edit history (1)

[LanternWaste]

98. I don't think that the U.S. gun culture is a myth.

There is roughly one firearm for every seven people worldwide. Without the United States, though, this drops to about one firearm per 10 people. Of the app. eight million new guns manufactured worldwide each year, 4.5 mil are purchased in the United States. Of the top five defense contractors in the world, four of them are U.S. (and seven are in the U.S. of the top 10 overall); and the U.S. is the number one arms exporter in the world.

Given all of this, I don't think that the U.S. gun culture is a myth.

(Source: Geneva-based Graduate Institute of International Studies)