Considering Scotland's move to become independent, is anyone

[Cleita]

watching the TV series, "Outlander" or read the books? It's about that period in history with the Jacobite uprisings. It's just before the battle of Culloden after which the British basically come in and destroy the Scottish clans and culture. Even though the series is a fantasy, the history is pretty accurate. It's a fascinating look back to who the Scots were back before then and it gives one a better understanding as to why they want their independence.

[grasswire]

1. I wonder what proportion of Scots are actually

....of Scandinavian ancestry. Viking descendants.

[malthaussen]

3. Well, ask the BBC:

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-16050269

You might also want to dig up a copy of Iain Moncreiffe's book The Highland Clans, in which he sets out a "conjectural family tree" of clans descended from the 7th century Norse king Ingiald.

-- Mal

[grasswire]

6. it was quite a surprise to me to learn..

....of many Viking ancestors in my genealogy. I had no idea. The Orkney Islands were ruled by my ancestors. Who knew? Not me.

[Cleita]

9. Lots of Viking ancestry in the British Isles.

My 100% Irish step daughter looks Swedish, she's so blond and pale.

[riqster]

31. Neglect not the Finns.

[malthaussen]

17. My ancestry is Scots and Norwegian.

Quite a lot of interplay among them, and on the other side of the Irish Sea. And if you study any Viking history, you will discover that Novgorod and Kiev (Russia, Ukraine) also have quite a bit of Norse (mostly Swedish) connections.

-- Mal

[EX500rider]

37. Same here!

The Crusader, Earl of Orkney "Kali" Regnald was my great grandfather 22 times removed...he dies August 20, 1158, and was deified as "Saint Rognvald" and buried at the cathedral of St Magnus on the Orkney Is. (St Magnus himself was my great-great uncle)

[roguevalley]

42. If you're Irish, you're probably royal. :D:D:D Niall of the

Nine Tails had 64 sons and half the Irish people in the world are his descendents. (You may kiss my ring)

Given this rate of reproduction, in 100 years. everyone in America will be related to the Duggars.

[EX500rider]

44. Clan Gunn from the Highlands...

We kiss nae ones rin', uless wi' uir claymores!

[roguevalley]

47. Smiths from Newpitslago, Aberdeenshire.

Haggis, St. Andrews Day, Robby Burns dinners, bagpipes. My cousin Hector Heath taught it and was a champion piper. I love Scotland. It was a bucket list thing to go.

[H2O Man]

60. !!!

Years ago, when Onondaga Chief Paul Waterman and I were speaking at a college, an audience member asked, "Why do so many white people claim to be 'part Indian'?" Paul said, "Because my grandfathers were just like me."

[Spider Jerusalem]

4. Probably 100%.

But then so are the English and the Welsh. The Normans were Vikings, originally, and at this point it's almost 100% certain that everyone of British ancestry is a descendant of William the Conqueror because of the number of generations involved--the number of ancestors one would have at 40 generations back is many times more than the total number of people who've ever lived, so the likelihood is that everyone of British ancestry isn't a descendant of William the Conqueror (and thus of Vikings) is almost zero. (And there were Danes, before that.)

[hfojvt]

12. well, we may be a descendant of William the Conqueror

but we would be descended from many other people at the time as well.

Being 30 generations back would give us about 1,000,000,000 ancestors.

Even if 10,000 of them were Vikings and Viqueens (with many duplications) that still would only make me 1/100,000th Viking.

With many of my other ancestors being "the Conquered" rather than "the Conqueror".

[Spider Jerusalem]

15. Actually...

it's likely that anyone of European ancestry is probably descended from everyone alive in Europe c. 1000 AD. (Multiply-descended from those in a given area, probably, with a few lines of descent from more geographically-separated populations.) But the question was whether the Scots have Viking ancestry, and the answer is "yes" (but so do the English and French and Russians).

[Generic Other]

18. The Celts are an older line

Many of the inhabitants of UK can trace their ancestry to this group, particularly Scots, Irish, Welsh and West England.

[hfojvt]

19. my point is that the Scots Viking ancestry

is no more significant than their non-Viking ancestry.

Not sure about every European being descended from every European in 1000 A.D. For one thing, not everybody alive then had kids. For another thing, not everybody who had descendants had the same amout of success.

Comparing some of the lines I know in some of my great-great-great grandparents. Just looking at the number of grandchildren they have - 72-40-39-39-34-22-19-16. Somebody with 72 grandchildren is much more likely to have numerous descendants than somebody with only 16.

Then there were things like the plague and the 30 years war killing massive amounts of people in some locations.

Then look at it from the other side. My ancestors, that I know of, were from Westphalia, Swabia, Prussia, Alsace, Switzerland, France, England, Scotland, The Netherlands, and Ireland. Scattered all over Europe, but still missing - Spain, Scandanavia, Poland, Greece, Italy, Russia and the Balkans. But with a little bit of stirring over the 700 years from 1700 back to 1000, I can see how my ancestors might cover much of Europe. Tougher to see how my former boss can do it since he is full blooded Norwegian.

Go back to 1800 and all of his ancestors are Norwegian. Hard to see how a bunch of people living in Cantal, France (for example) in 1000 AD are all going to make it into his bloodline.

I mean, sure we all have about 1.07 billion ancestors at that time when European population was perhaps just 30 million but that does not put all 30 million in everybody's pedigree.

[REP]

38. That's interesting

I have photographs of my Welsh family from the dawn of photography onward, and I'd guess we have more genes from the Roman invasion than from the Vikings (we're Northerners - short, dark-haired, fair complections, blue eyes but a very "Roman" nose shows up over and over). I'm very tempted to buy one of those ethnological DNA kits for the hell of it.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

48. A lot of lines will have died out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galton%E2%80%93Watson_process has some of the relevant maths.

[Spider Jerusalem]

50. Inevitably, yes

I'm familiar with this, and there've been studies that show that a random European living c. 1000AD is, mathematically, either the ancestor of no-one currently living, or of all present-day Europeans. See for instance this .

[hfojvt]

56. that link says the universal connection is well before 1,000 AD

"Present-day inhabitants of Eastern European countries share many ancestors who lived around 1,500 years ago, Ralph and Coop found. Italians, meanwhile, are connected to other European populations mainly through individuals who lived more than 2,000 years ago, perhaps as a result of the country's geographic isolation."

Share "MANY" and 1,500 years ago and does that connect to the people of western Europe?

And to tie into Italians requires "more than 2,000" years.

[Spider Jerusalem]

57. Except that it doesn't actually say that.

It says that Italians have few genetic common ancestors with other European populations. A genealogical ancestor is not necessarily going to be a genetic ancestor, and the genetic contribution of a single ancestor 40 generations back may be nil.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

46. A billion routes back to an ancestor doesn't mean anything like a billion ancestors.

I have no idea how to work out how many it does mean, though - you'd need data about population movements and things, not just maths.

[hfojvt]

55. no, it means a billion

it's not a billion paths, it's an actual billion names.

Except many of the names will be duplicated, depending more on inbreeding than population movements, although inbreeding is a function of population movements.

Take my distant cousin Jackie who I have known since the 8th grade. We are 7th cousins, but there are six known connections between us. Had we married and reproduced then our kids would have ten sets of duplicate ancestors in their pedigrees.

I would say it is a billion names (actually 1.2 billion or so) but they are not unique names, obviously, because there were not a billion people alive at that time.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

58. How do you find out that someone is your seventh cousin?

Are you an extraordinarily close extended family, or did you just happen to mention descent from a local figure?

[hfojvt]

59. I do endless amounts of research

I did not know at the time that we were 7th cousins, but family history research discovered it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024829491

[roguevalley]

43. Danes, the group name of the Norse conquered nearly all the way to southern England. They

were paid Dane geld to go away. Between the Saxons and Danes, everyone is everything. I however want a recount. WHERE ARE MY LONG LEGS AND BLOND HAIR!? I don't look a bit like Tiger Wood's ex-wife. DAMN YOU, DNA! (Shakes fist at sky in futility)

[marions ghost]

23. Mine are

I dont think it's uncommon

[malthaussen]

2. If you fancy this period, watch this flick:

Excellent all-round.

-- Mal

[Cleita]

5. Thanks. I never knew about that movie.

I knew a lot of Scottish immigrants when I lived in Santa Monica. I even used to go to the games with a Scottish girl friend so I got to know pretty much about their nationalism.

[Beach Rat]

24. That's a great movie!

Thanks for posting it. I haven't seen that since my eighth grade World History class. The modern news coverage technique was an inspiration for many a history project I did in high school. I love the part where both generals state their confidence in victory because "God is on our side". Things don't really change do they?

[riderinthestorm]

7. Oh my god yes I've read the books. Its crack cocaine for history buffs!

[Cleita]

8. I 'm going through The Lord John books now.

I started to read for the fantasy and romance and stayed for the history.

[hfojvt]

10. maybe the highlanders "want their independence"

But no true Scotsman does.

[Cleita]

11. Could you elaborate on that?

I know they would lose some benefits but I always detected a strong strain of nationalism in the Scots, even the lowlanders.

[hfojvt]

13. it's a joke

using the "no true Scotsman fallacy"

However, a quick reading finds that most of the Jacobites were highlanders.

But I am also sure that not every Scot "wants their independence" any more than every Texan wants to secede from the union.

I know almost nothing of Scotch history in spite of my part ancestry but I prefer world unity to splinterism where every little group of 27,000 people wants to form their own little "sovereign nation".

I hope the vote goes against independence.

[Cleita]

14. Jacobites weren't just highlanders. Many were French.

Mostly they were Catholics who felt their king should be a Stuart.

[Scootaloo]

26. "Scottish," not "Scotch"

Scotch is tape and alcohol, not people. Sort of like how "oriental" is a rug, not people

[hfojvt]

27. according to my Oxford Desk dictionary (American edition)

the first definition of Scotch is "var. of Scottish or Scots".

Apparently it is a variation used by my clans.

You know, the true Scotsmen - Campbells and Gordons and Cochranes (oh my)

[Cleita]

29. What was said to me by Scots

"We are Scots. Scotch is whiskey."

[hfojvt]

36. Not true Scotsmen though

Not Campbells.

What is said to me by most Scots is "Campbells are so mean".

At which point I have to defend my clan's honor and prove them wrong.

Usually by thrashing them to within an inch of their life.

[KamaAina]

25. DUzy!!

[canoeist52]

16. Read all the well-researched books, and yes, it seem to be excellent timing for the TV series.

[Blue_Tires]

20. I thought the independence campaign

was more about economic policy and politics rather than cultural differences??

[Cleita]

21. Actually they stand to lose economically if they become independent.

This is one of the reasons No. Ireland is still part of the United Kingdom. Although the divide in NI is religious, Protestants vs Catholics, many Catholics have economic concerns about leaving England and joining with Ireland.

[roguevalley]

45. no they won't. read the ad thread. Its a lie. Thatcher and co have been

robbing scotland blind.

[Cleita]

49. That's good to hear. I really thought the Brits wouldn't cut them off from the pound.

It wouldn't be to their benefit either.

[Zorra]

22. And the unspeakably wicked things the imperialist British did to the people of Ireland was genocide

They murdered, starved, and enslaved millons of Irish, and did whatever they could to destroy Irish culture.

Thanks for the heads up. I don't watch TV but am looking forward to watching Outlander when it is out on DVD

Go Scotland!

[riqster]

28. Also remember that Britain's current government has very little Scot participation.

Cameron has ignored them until recently. Scots aren't just thinking historically, their current situation plays into the vote as well.

[KoKo]

30. Where are you watching it?

I searched and it says STARZ has it free online...but, I don't know why it would be free online?

[Cleita]

33. I am watching it on Starz. I believe it's free online only if you

are a subscriber to the premium channel. It will eventually come out on DVD and even basic cable like the Starz series Spartacus that is now playing on SyFy channel.

[Cleita]

35. Btw you don't have to watch the series as the books are all available at the

library.

[KoKo]

40. Thanks Cleita...I was looking for something interesting to watch ...

and only have low tier cable so if Starz in Premium then I can't watch it. I was hoping it was available on something I could use my ROKU box for viewing it. I have Netflix and they had a contract with Starz for awhile but not now. Also have Acorn TV which has many of the British series but not Starz.

If I could find a way to pay per episode from Starz Website I could probably download on my I-Phone and then plug it in to watch on my TV, though. I'll investigate further to see if that's possible.

[Baitball Blogger]

32. Follow the stone of destiny.

I think the stone of destiny is back in Scotland, which for some is a prophetic sign that Scotland would once again stand as a sovereign nation.

[Cleita]

34. Yes it is back in Scotland, I believe within the last decade. eom

[truebluegreen]

51. It was returned in 1996

And currently lies in Edinburgh Castle with the Honours (crown jewels) of Scotland...until it is needed again for the coronation of a British monarch.

Assuming that it is the real one....

[seaglass]

39. Yes, watching Outlander and have read 4 of the books. Also have Scottish ancestry but do not know

a lot about the move to become independent other than what I've read recently. I understand that Scotland leans more politically left than England and that this creates issues for both those who oppose independence and those who are proponents. Also economic concerns.

My default position is to be pro-independence . I found this article to be interesting:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/20/opinion/sunday/The-Independence-Referendum-Is-a-Test-of-Scotlands-Confidence.html?_r=0

[Cleita]

41. Thanks. Interesting analysis. n/t

[KoKo]

52. I read today that Scotland didn't support Blair's support for Iraq

Invasion. And, they are not so inclined to support another one.

But then, Commerce and Business will leave Scotland if they leave GB....so it comes down to PRESSURE.

I don't think they will get the vote...but, I totally Applaud their EFFORT. Maybe they will get better deal in Parliament and more favorability if they stay. But, still applaud their efforts to "Push Back" what they don't want to support.

And, NO....I'm certainly not an anarchist...at all...but, making Government Accountable these days.....might mean "resorting to drastic actions."

Just saying.

[seaglass]

53. Did you see the John Oliver post Koko? It is very humorous and well worth watching. At around

6:57 there is a clip of Cameron responding to a Parliamentary question about control of revenues from North Sea oil - and that says it all.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025539880

[KoKo]

54. No..I didn't ...and Thanks..will check it out!