Listening to a couple of defense lawyers on NPR, it sounds like one thing can determine

[jillan]

the outcome of the case more than anything else.

And that is going to be who attacked first - GZ or Trayvon.

If GZs attorneys make the case that Trayvon hit first and GZ felt threatened - GZ had every right to shoot.

Let's just hope and pray that the prosecuting attorneys are able to counter this argument.

Then it's up to the jury to decide who they believe.

Other issues will be at play - such as GZ being told not to pursue Trayvon, and the 9-ll calls and any witnesses,
but from what they were saying - who attacked who first is going to be the main issue because of the it's okay to kill law.

----

Just wanted to share what I heard.


****ETA - I just want to make sure that you understand these are not my thoughts. I want to see GZ rot in jail. Just what I heard.

[Ecumenist]

1. Somehow, I don't think that the case would have been charged as it has been IF there wasnt some

serious evidence to back it up that WE DON'T KNOW ABOUT. Just sit back and toe tap. You'll see. The ever evolving and mutating stories don't bode well for zimmykiller the coward. There's something heavy duty in the works.

[sinkingfeeling]

2. Really? I would think that anyone being followed by and then approached

by a complete stranger has the right to defend themselves by throwing a punch.

[jillan]

7. I would think so too. These attorneys were saying no - one of them even

said even if GZ grabbed Trayvon's arm demanding to know what he was doing there, it wouldn't matter.

wtf???????

[arely staircase]

56. bullshit

Grabbing someones arm is battery.

[bigapple]

40. really?

what if that person was looking for directions? Then you just went to jail for assault.

[sinkingfeeling]

47. Not if they were following me for blocks and chasing me between buildings.

[Myrina]

3. 2nd degree: malicious intent/callous disregard

I'd say ignoring the orders of the 911 operator to back the hell off & stop following Martin would fall under those guidelines.

[no_hypocrisy]

8. GZ should have hung back after he told to.

He knew the police were en route. What could TM have done within 3 minutes of police's ETA?

[Hangingon]

14. What is the authority of a 911 operator?

[Myrina]

29. ... depends on the locale, i think ...

They're certainly not employees of the phone company ...

[bigapple]

41. firstly

it was a suggestion not an order. secondly they may not have any legal authority.

[gratuitous]

4. The competing testimony of the participants could be illuminating

Oh wait; this isn't exactly he said/he said. More like he said/he dead.

Color me not sanguine about the chances. The only reason this matter has gotten as far as it has is because of an incredible amount of public pressure. This will take a little while, but I don't think the Florida authorities don't have any incentive to see this through to a legal conclusion. Look for the prosecution to slowly disintegrate. The Martin family's best hope for "justice" will probably come through a civil suit.

[magical thyme]

33. the only reason he wasn't charged the night it happened was because of the former DA

The initial response was to arrest and charge. 1 person in authority blocked it, he claims in order to make a better case.

Incredible public pressure brought in a new DA, who insisted on waiting until she had the evidence she needed. And who has charged him with the highest level she has a reasonable chance of winning.

Based on Zimmerman's weeping his first night, on his first introduction to a reality he *never* even considered, I won't be surprised if he chooses to plea down to manslaughter. But my thinking at this point is he will still do some serious time and he'll never own a gun again.

Hopefully he'll use that time to train for something peaceful and useful to do with his time.

[spanone]

5. i think a main defense will be that zimmerman was told NOT to follow martin

[bigapple]

42. actually

he was advised not to.

[HockeyMom]

6. SYG?

If you are being followed, and then confronted by a stranger, whose right trumps whose? You don't have the right to defend yourself from someone following you?

As a woman, that is frightening. I cannot attack my follower first?????? I have to wait for him to grab and hit me first?

[justanaverageguy]

17. I don't think that you believing that you are being followed is

in and of itself a reason to throw a punch or to use any other type of violence. There has to be a reason to be in fear of bodily harm before you can resort to throwing punches. There are all sorts of reasons someone might be innocently following or pursuing you.

[greiner3]

26. "There are all sorts of reasons someone might be innocently following or pursuing you."

Surely you jest!

[justanaverageguy]

30. No I'm not jesting

I may have dropped my wallet.....I may have left my keys in my car door.....I may have something going on that makes yelling out to me a matter of discretion or our location may make in inappropriate for the the person to yell out to me therefore they pursue me....These would be causes for innocent people to pursue me.

Point being if all you have to go on for your reason to use force against another is that you thought they were following you I would find it difficult to justify your use of force.....There would need to be something more...not much more but more.

[amandabeech]

35. It would be better if you could just get out of therre as fast as possible.

I'm female, btw. In undergrad and graduate schools, we were taught to put our keys in the palm of one hand and let the keys drop between our fingers. That made a nice weapon to scratch the face. We were also encouraged to yell, "Fire, fire, fire!" People won't come to "rape." Nowadays I'd keep my cell phone within easy reach and have 911 at the top of the speed dial.

Check out the availability of pepper spray in your state and municipality.

I wish that we could just hit the guy with a big pipe if we just see a nasty-looking one, but that's not the way the law is now.

[bigapple]

43. well

you have the right to defend yourself against someone attacking or about to attack you. Just following doesn't cut it.

[enough]

9. A lot of relevant information about this in this thread just posted:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002554209

[jillan]

13. Which really begs the question why are there attorneys on the radio

taking the side of the defense?????

[gkhouston]

38. Because that will garner more listeners than saying that GZ is screwn. n/t

[arely staircase]

57. becaise they are defense lawyers nt

[asjr]

10. Probably Zimmerman approached Martin with

his gun already apparent. If I saw someone approaching me with a gun I would be terrified. I would consider that the first assault from Z. Maybe Martin started moving away and was stopped by Z. Then all hell broke loose. This probably is not the first instance of Z using this routine. Just by defying a 911 order to not follow Martin, to me means he wanted to show just how powerful he could be. Or rather show off. My bad if I am wrong.

[wandy]

11. I've got to ask you something here....

Yes you personally.
You are out walking. Not realy walking home, just out for a walk.
Someone starts following you in a car.
They continue to follow you. They get out of their car and charge you on foot.
They are armed.
Running away may not be an option. They are larger and faster.

What would you do?

[jillan]

12. That is the perfect question for the prosecutor(s) to ask the members of the jury.

No one in their right mind would not fight for their life.

[wandy]

23. Agreed. The real question here would be.....

Who had the right to stand their ground?

[dkf]

50. Maybe they both did?

[Vincardog]

16. When it happened to me, I side stepped them let them rush on by and kicked them to the curb.

Fortunately for me we were on a bridge and the curb was about 20 feet below us.

[wandy]

21. Something similar happened to me. Fortunately they were not armed....

They were faster. They were not bigger. Also they did not have that scared shit-less adrenalin rush.
They did however bite off a touch more than they could hide.

[Vincardog]

25. Mine had one of those fancy flick knives you see in the Chop-chop flicks

Fortunately he took it with him on the long drop to the train tracks, He was waving it around trying to scare me.

[wandy]

27. By the way I forgot to tell you. Bulley for you.

My daddy always thought me to back down if you can.
Just if you can't back down,,, their ain't no rules in a fight.

[Vincardog]

28. Thanks, I decided for myself: Get out of it if you can, if you can't end it quick

[justanaverageguy]

19. Of course in that scenario if running away was not an option I would stand and fight....However let

me add to your hypothetical...

You are being pursued in such manner....you have evaded your pursuer....the pursuer then gives up the pursuit and begins to move away from you.....do you still have the right to use force (possibly deadly force) against the person that was pursuing you?

[wandy]

20. No. Hell no. Prudence demands, Run away! Besides, it's over.

[magical thyme]

32. something similar happened to me

a man in a van was clearly following me. I was walking home from a nearby convenience store. He passed me in different directions several times, yelling something at me each time he passed. Then he pulled into a parking lot and yelled something at me.

I was *terrified.* If I continued home, he'd see where I lived and attack then, or maybe watch from a distance, leave and come back later.

And then something inside me switched gears and my fear turned into rage. I walked up to his parked van and demanded to know what he wanted. He turned red, panicked, apologized that he thought I was someone else and gunned it out of there.

I am a small, single woman. Rage is just fear directed outward. I didn't *choose* to fly into a rage. My survival instincts switched my fear into rage and drove me to confront him right then, right there, in the open.

The thing is, until you are in the situation, you don't really know what you will do. You aren't expecting it. You're just peacefully walking along, minding your own business. You aren't looking for trouble, never go looking for trouble. It just comes to you like a lightening bolt from a clear blue sky and you react the way you react.

Trayvon was walking along minding his own business. He wasn't looking for trouble, and however he reacted was in direct response to trouble coming to him from out of the blue.

Zimmerman, on the other hand, was looking for trouble. He may not have been looking for trouble initially, and only thought he'd stumbled onto it. But the minute he left his van and followed Trayvon, he was looking for trouble.

[wandy]

34. 'Until you are in the situation, you don't really know what you will do.' Quite right......

You were smart to do it out in the open, hopefully in plain view of others.
You are most correct, Zimmerman was an ugly situation looking to happen.
The idea of a neighbor hood watch is. You watch, you call 911. They shouldn't have to tell you to stay in the car.
Common sense should tell you that.
Do you remember Watership Downs....
How did Zimmerman know that he was not to meet a darker rabbit.

[jwirr]

15. In that case is stalking a form of attack?

[DevonRex]

18. even that is overly simplistic.

Last edited Thu Apr 12, 2012, 05:26 PM - Edit history (1)

Aggressor status can change several times during the course of an altercation. Nothing is as simple as it seems. However, in this case, since Zimmerman disobeyed the dispatcher twice, stalked the unarmed child, used force that far outweighed any threat that the child could possibly have posed, AND since zimmerman initiated aggression, AND since he outweighed the child by 100 pounds at the time of the altercation, he will be convicted.

There is absolutely nothing in his favor. Not one single thing that I can see so far.

[bigapple]

45. ok

the dispatcher advised not order. and even then the dispatcher may not have legal authority to order.

what if the child was on top of him banging his head into the concrete. Is that in his favor?

[DevonRex]

48. LOL.

I weigh 125. I always pull out a gun and shoot when a 25 pound person bangs my head on the grass.

[X_Digger]

22. I've been saying that for a while.

If Zimmerman tackled, swung at, or tried to detain Martin, he's toast. That makes his actions a forcible felony, and he can't claim self-defense.

If Martin did swing first at Zimmerman, Zimmerman would have to prove that a 'reasonable person' would fear death or grave imminent harm- which doesn't seem likely either.

[amandabeech]

36. Only if Zimmerman is lying about getting his head beat on the sidewalk.

If true, I'd say that made at least "grave imminent harm." Of course, it's probably not true.

I just hope that at trial the prosecutor can disprove Z's story!

[X_Digger]

39. From what we've seen in the media (admittedly incomplete as it is)..

I can't imagine making a credible claim- either that Martin swung first, and if he did, that he represented a huge threat (not going to the hospital, no blood on his shirt from bloody nose, nothing on video)..

[amandabeech]

49. Well, I guess we'll just have to wait until the jury comes in with its verdict.

When that will be, I don't know.

[dkf]

51. Doesn't sound like they have evidence either way.

[X_Digger]

53. I wouldn't expect the SA to present all evidence at a bail hearing.

So at this point, I'd reserve judgement about the strength of their case.

[rustydog]

24. No they are wrong...Zimmerman initiated the contact with a sidearm strapped to his hip

No fight could possibly have occurred, there is NO WAY Zimmie could have been in fear of his life if he had not confronted a teenager walking along FREELY in America minding his own business.

You cannot start a fight with someone then claim self-defense because you are too stupid and start a fight with someone who supposedly is stronger than you.

Trayvon would be alive today, Poor widdle old Zimmie would not be PTSD now and he would not be facing 2nd degree murder charges if he had ONLY done what the police told him to do.
stay in his freakin' vehicle.

[bigapple]

46. yes but

what the defense attorneys on NPR are asking: who made the first physical contact?

[OneGrassRoot]

31. Does anyone know how valid/reliable are the reports from the funeral director...

regarding the fact that Trayvon had no evidence of fighting -- no evidence of marks on his hands that he was punching someone?

It seems the autopsy report and other evidence we aren't privy to can answer MANY questions.

[amandabeech]

37. The best evidence will be that of the medical examiner, but it has not been made available.

The funeral director saw the body only after the medical examiner had done his, often grisly, job.

[MineralMan]

44. Probably the most important factor, really,

will be the makeup of the jury. It takes just one vote to prevent a guilty verdict. There's the factor that may decide the whole thing in court.

All the other stuff will be presented by one side or the other, but it will be the jury, in the end, that decides this case, as always.

It seems clear cut to me that Zimmerman stalked this kid, and provoked any response from Martin that happened. Then he killed Martin. I expect the evidence to show that. I don't know what to expect from a jury there, though.

[shimonitanegi]

52. Only Zimmerman knows who started a fight.

Zimmerman has violent arrest records.
Martin didn't have any criminal records.

Zimmerman had a loaded gun.
Martin didn't have any weapons.(Some claims a can of iced tea is a weapon.)

Zimmerman was following Martin.(According to Dee Dee's testimony)
Martin was talking with his girl friend.(Confirmed by a phone record)

Also, Zimmerman said "these assholes, they always get away." with anger.
All this tragedy was initiated by Zimmerman's following Martin.

Some says Zimmerman's previous violent history is inadmissible.

[dkf]

54. Martin may have thought he was in danger and thus initiated the contact.

"According to an Orlando Sentinel story later confirmed by Sanford police, Zimmerman tells authorities that, after Zimmerman briefly lost track of Martin, the teen approached him. After the two exchange words, Zimmerman says, he reaches for his cell phone, and then Martin punches him in the nose. Zimmerman says Martin pins him to the ground and begins slamming his head into the sidewalk."

Maybe he thought Zimmerman was pulling a gun when he went for his cell phone.

[lonestarnot]

55. What bullshit! If I were being stalked for no apparent reason, I may attack with my skittles and

tea.

[Daalalou]

58. OK, imagine this

Zimm is following Trayvon because he finds him suspect, but has no intention of harming him. Trayvon turns angrily and says, "What are you following me for?!" (These are the words the girlfriend reported him saying).

Zimm has the power then to defuse the situation, to assure him he has no intention of harm. Does he?

I'll share an example of an episode of, I think it was Dateline. They created a scenario in which two white actors, a girl of about 10 and a heavy-set grown man, got into an altercation in the street. The man grabbed the girl and said, "Come with me now," and the girl shouted, "Let go of me! Leave me alone! This is not my dad! This is not my dad!"

The point was to see whether or not people who witnessed this would intervene, either physically or by calling the police.

They re-enacted this scenario multiple times over a three-hour period. Not one person intervened, until the end of that time. Two young (20-ish) black guys, neither particularly big, were walking by and heard the shouting. They were both drinking sodas. Without speaking, they nodded at each other, dropped their sodas, and separated, both moving quickly to opposite sides of the abducting man.

When the actor saw the two men approaching, he let go of the girl and quickly backed away from both her and the men, shouting, "TV! TV! This is just acting!"

It only took a second of him doing that for the two young men to stop moving toward him.

Afterward, the actor was interviewed, and he said for a moment he was really scared the two men would actually hurt him. But note, it didn't take much for him to defuse the situation and stop two men who thought they were protecting a young girl.

If he could do that with two grown men, why couldn't Zimmerman do it with one teenage boy, if his intentions really were good ones?