Fri Apr 13, 2012, 09:02 AM
Snake Alchemist (3,318 posts)
Will justice only be served if George Zimmerman is convicted?
I'm going to take the unpopular stance that I want to wait to see how the trial unfolds. I am anxious to hear the witness and coroner testimonies. I'm going to approach it with an open mind and see what comes to light.
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128 replies, 5911 views
| Author | Time | Post | |
| Snake Alchemist | Apr 2012 | OP | |
| dkf | Apr 2012 | #1 | |
| Snake Alchemist | Apr 2012 | #4 | |
| HIMYM | Apr 2012 | #99 | |
| greyl | Apr 2012 | #107 | |
| rock | Apr 2012 | #2 | |
| ProgressiveProfessor | Apr 2012 | #3 | |
| dkf | Apr 2012 | #6 | |
| LiberalArkie | Apr 2012 | #5 | |
| treestar | Apr 2012 | #7 | |
| Snake Alchemist | Apr 2012 | #8 | |
| treestar | Apr 2012 | #120 | |
| arthritisR_US | Apr 2012 | #30 | |
| treestar | Apr 2012 | #121 | |
| arthritisR_US | Apr 2012 | #122 | |
| BklnDem75 | Apr 2012 | #9 | |
| Snake Alchemist | Apr 2012 | #12 | |
| BklnDem75 | Apr 2012 | #14 | |
| Snake Alchemist | Apr 2012 | #21 | |
| BklnDem75 | Apr 2012 | #25 | |
| Snake Alchemist | Apr 2012 | #40 | |
| NoGOPZone | Apr 2012 | #42 | |
| Snake Alchemist | Apr 2012 | #44 | |
| BklnDem75 | Apr 2012 | #45 | |
| Snake Alchemist | Apr 2012 | #46 | |
| BklnDem75 | Apr 2012 | #50 | |
| Snake Alchemist | Apr 2012 | #51 | |
| BklnDem75 | Apr 2012 | #56 | |
| Snake Alchemist | Apr 2012 | #59 | |
| BklnDem75 | Apr 2012 | #60 | |
| Snake Alchemist | Apr 2012 | #61 | |
| BklnDem75 | Apr 2012 | #65 | |
| Snake Alchemist | Apr 2012 | #67 | |
| BklnDem75 | Apr 2012 | #69 | |
| Snake Alchemist | Apr 2012 | #82 | |
| BklnDem75 | Apr 2012 | #91 | |
| Snake Alchemist | Apr 2012 | #92 | |
| BklnDem75 | Apr 2012 | #93 | |
| Snake Alchemist | Apr 2012 | #94 | |
| BklnDem75 | Apr 2012 | #97 | |
| Snake Alchemist | Apr 2012 | #100 | |
| BklnDem75 | Apr 2012 | #103 | |
| Snake Alchemist | Apr 2012 | #104 | |
| WeekendWarrior | Apr 2012 | #27 | |
| Snake Alchemist | Apr 2012 | #34 | |
| WeekendWarrior | Apr 2012 | #41 | |
| Snake Alchemist | Apr 2012 | #43 | |
| WeekendWarrior | Apr 2012 | #53 | |
| Snake Alchemist | Apr 2012 | #55 | |
| WeekendWarrior | Apr 2012 | #62 | |
| Snake Alchemist | Apr 2012 | #63 | |
| WeekendWarrior | Apr 2012 | #64 | |
| Snake Alchemist | Apr 2012 | #66 | |
| WeekendWarrior | Apr 2012 | #108 | |
| H2O Man | Apr 2012 | #127 | |
| SaltyBro | Apr 2012 | #10 | |
| Snake Alchemist | Apr 2012 | #13 | |
| SaltyBro | Apr 2012 | #17 | |
| Snake Alchemist | Apr 2012 | #35 | |
| Becka2515 | Apr 2012 | #20 | |
| obamanut2012 | Apr 2012 | #33 | |
| Becka2515 | Apr 2012 | #79 | |
| HooptieWagon | Apr 2012 | #11 | |
| Egalitarian Thug | Apr 2012 | #15 | |
| Lex | Apr 2012 | #16 | |
| OneGrassRoot | Apr 2012 | #22 | |
| Lex | Apr 2012 | #26 | |
| OneGrassRoot | Apr 2012 | #28 | |
| obamanut2012 | Apr 2012 | #36 | |
| NoGOPZone | Apr 2012 | #38 | |
| csziggy | Apr 2012 | #77 | |
| leftynyc | Apr 2012 | #18 | |
| Snake Alchemist | Apr 2012 | #37 | |
| leftynyc | Apr 2012 | #47 | |
| RZM | Apr 2012 | #19 | |
| Johonny | Apr 2012 | #23 | |
| Life Long Dem | Apr 2012 | #24 | |
| Skip_In_Boulder | Apr 2012 | #29 | |
| Marr | Apr 2012 | #31 | |
| Snake Alchemist | Apr 2012 | #39 | |
| Lex | Apr 2012 | #48 | |
| Snake Alchemist | Apr 2012 | #49 | |
| Lex | Apr 2012 | #52 | |
| Snake Alchemist | Apr 2012 | #54 | |
| Lex | Apr 2012 | #57 | |
| Snake Alchemist | Apr 2012 | #58 | |
| Life Long Dem | Apr 2012 | #72 | |
| Snake Alchemist | Apr 2012 | #84 | |
| Life Long Dem | Apr 2012 | #96 | |
| Snake Alchemist | Apr 2012 | #98 | |
| Life Long Dem | Apr 2012 | #102 | |
| Marr | Apr 2012 | #71 | |
| Snake Alchemist | Apr 2012 | #81 | |
| Marr | Apr 2012 | #86 | |
| Snake Alchemist | Apr 2012 | #88 | |
| bluesbassman | Apr 2012 | #95 | |
| Snake Alchemist | Apr 2012 | #101 | |
| Yo_Mama | Apr 2012 | #32 | |
| Kesiyu | Apr 2012 | #68 | |
| uppityperson | Apr 2012 | #70 | |
| Kesiyu | Apr 2012 | #73 | |
| uppityperson | Apr 2012 | #75 | |
| Kesiyu | Apr 2012 | #109 | |
| Life Long Dem | Apr 2012 | #78 | |
| uppityperson | Apr 2012 | #80 | |
| Kesiyu | Apr 2012 | #110 | |
| BklnDem75 | Apr 2012 | #112 | |
| BklnDem75 | Apr 2012 | #74 | |
| gkhouston | Apr 2012 | #76 | |
| Kesiyu | Apr 2012 | #111 | |
| cyberswede | Apr 2012 | #113 | |
| BklnDem75 | Apr 2012 | #114 | |
| Kesiyu | Apr 2012 | #116 | |
| BklnDem75 | Apr 2012 | #117 | |
| uppityperson | Apr 2012 | #125 | |
| Proud Liberal Dem | Apr 2012 | #83 | |
| MrBig | Apr 2012 | #87 | |
| Rex | Apr 2012 | #85 | |
| Snake Alchemist | Apr 2012 | #89 | |
| Rex | Apr 2012 | #105 | |
| ZombieHorde | Apr 2012 | #90 | |
| Rex | Apr 2012 | #106 | |
| ZombieHorde | Apr 2012 | #118 | |
| Rex | Apr 2012 | #119 | |
| H2O Man | Apr 2012 | #115 | |
| Better Believe It | Apr 2012 | #123 | |
| chrisa | Apr 2012 | #124 | |
| alarimer | Apr 2012 | #126 | |
| barbtries | Apr 2012 | #128 |
Response to Snake Alchemist (Original post)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 09:07 AM
dkf (33,379 posts)
1. The whole thing has already been prejudged.
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Personally I want to know what the autopsy shows about who was where then the shot was fired. If Zimmerman was on top that screams guilty to me. If he was underneath then I'd listen more to what he has to say. But all this stuff coming out is ridiculous if we want an impartial jury.
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Response to dkf (Reply #1)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 09:19 AM
Snake Alchemist (3,318 posts)
4. That will definitely be a key finding. nt
Response to dkf (Reply #1)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 03:49 PM
HIMYM (12 posts)
99. I agree completely!
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the all and powerful media has already convicted Zimmerman.
and despite how much people hate the media, they tend to listen when their statements are the same as theirs. Lets let the trial tell us the facts and not the media. |
Response to HIMYM (Reply #99)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 04:21 PM
greyl (16,452 posts)
107. Has Fox News convicted Zimmerman? nt
Response to Snake Alchemist (Original post)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 09:08 AM
rock (7,421 posts)
2. Since I am finding it extremely difficult to get the facts in this case
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I too, want to suppress any pre-judgement and wait to see what evidence is presented.
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Response to Snake Alchemist (Original post)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 09:19 AM
ProgressiveProfessor (22,144 posts)
3. Blackstone: Better 10 guilty go free than one innocent suffer
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Though I have serious doubts how this could be justifiable.
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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #3)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 09:56 AM
dkf (33,379 posts)
6. It's based on his state of mind.
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I'm not sure how a persons own bias would affect that. I imagine someone who is generally more nervous would find it reasonable while someone who isn't would think it was too much.
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Response to Snake Alchemist (Original post)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 09:26 AM
LiberalArkie (1,263 posts)
5. With the stand your ground law, he might be really not guilty.
Response to LiberalArkie (Reply #5)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 09:59 AM
treestar (41,442 posts)
7. Good point
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the worst part about this law is that it makes is so easy to claim self defense and standing your ground - really an ill advised law that could lead to a lot of deaths/beatings that might not have happened.
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Response to treestar (Reply #7)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 10:40 AM
Snake Alchemist (3,318 posts)
8. How difficult should it be to claim self-defense?
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That is an interesting question.
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Response to Snake Alchemist (Reply #8)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 08:00 PM
treestar (41,442 posts)
120. Many states - it is an affirmative defense
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It shouldn't just be the shooter said so.
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Response to LiberalArkie (Reply #5)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 11:30 AM
arthritisR_US (3,580 posts)
30. My understanding of the law is that you can
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stand your ground if you are approached aggressively and there is no alternative open to retreat. Here Zimmerman did the approaching, against advisement not to do so and wait for the police. It strikes me that in applying this law it would be Trayvon who could claim it's usage not Zimmerman, IMO.
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Response to arthritisR_US (Reply #30)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 08:01 PM
treestar (41,442 posts)
121. I thought it meant though you could retreat, you don't have to
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Which really caters to anyone spoiling for a fight.
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Response to treestar (Reply #121)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 08:18 PM
arthritisR_US (3,580 posts)
122. I may be wrong but I thought it only
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applied to a no choice situation. Otherwise, what you would have is open season for anyone with a grudge, be it race, gender or orientation.
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Response to Snake Alchemist (Original post)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 10:55 AM
BklnDem75 (2,275 posts)
9. It will be a step in the right direction
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Even if a shitty law condones murder, it's still murder, not justice.
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Response to BklnDem75 (Reply #9)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 11:00 AM
Snake Alchemist (3,318 posts)
12. so regardless of what comes out in trial, you've
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Already made up your mind?
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Response to Snake Alchemist (Reply #12)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 11:07 AM
BklnDem75 (2,275 posts)
14. Yes
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Just like with Sean Bell, Rodney King, Amadou Diallo and countless other verdicts, you don't need a jury to know an injustice was done.
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Response to BklnDem75 (Reply #14)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 11:17 AM
Snake Alchemist (3,318 posts)
21. glad you are that confident. nt
Response to Snake Alchemist (Reply #21)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 11:23 AM
BklnDem75 (2,275 posts)
25. Practice makes perfect
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So do you think justice was served in those verdicts I mentioned?
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Response to BklnDem75 (Reply #25)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 12:16 PM
Snake Alchemist (3,318 posts)
40. What about Casey Anthony, OJ, Duke Lacrosse, Reginald Denny?
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Were those verdicts correct?
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Response to Snake Alchemist (Reply #40)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 12:21 PM
NoGOPZone (2,658 posts)
42. There was no verdict in the Duke case because
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Last edited Fri Apr 13, 2012, 12:22 PM USA/ET - Edit history (2) there wasn't any trial
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Response to NoGOPZone (Reply #42)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 12:22 PM
Snake Alchemist (3,318 posts)
44. Very true. But many were convinced of their guilt early on. nt
Response to Snake Alchemist (Reply #40)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 12:24 PM
BklnDem75 (2,275 posts)
45. Those cases makes my point more, don't you think?
Response to BklnDem75 (Reply #45)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 12:24 PM
Snake Alchemist (3,318 posts)
46. No. nt
Response to Snake Alchemist (Reply #46)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 12:37 PM
BklnDem75 (2,275 posts)
50. So you believe justice was served in those cases?
Response to BklnDem75 (Reply #50)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 12:38 PM
Snake Alchemist (3,318 posts)
51. Maybe. Hopefully, the jurors made the decision they thought was best. nt
Response to Snake Alchemist (Reply #51)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 01:03 PM
BklnDem75 (2,275 posts)
56. Seriously? Caylee Anthony had justice with that verdict?
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Response to BklnDem75 (Reply #56)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 01:06 PM
Snake Alchemist (3,318 posts)
59. So you're sure she did not? nt
Response to Snake Alchemist (Reply #59)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 01:09 PM
BklnDem75 (2,275 posts)
60. Once again, yes
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Juries aren't infallible. Let's not pretend justice begins and ends with them.
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Response to BklnDem75 (Reply #60)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 01:11 PM
Snake Alchemist (3,318 posts)
61. Glad to know that you are better informed than many juries. You should sell your services. nt
Response to Snake Alchemist (Reply #61)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 01:18 PM
BklnDem75 (2,275 posts)
65. Your mistake is thinking jurors are more informed simply because they're jurors
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How do you feel about overturned cases? Was justice served until it wasn't?
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Response to BklnDem75 (Reply #65)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 01:21 PM
Snake Alchemist (3,318 posts)
67. No. But I do believe they may be more informed than joe sixpack off the street.
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I do not believe cases should be overturned unless their is evidence indicating they should.
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Response to Snake Alchemist (Reply #67)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 01:25 PM
BklnDem75 (2,275 posts)
69. Have you ever been a part of a jury pool?
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Where do you think these juries come from? Unless there's a media blackout, we all get the same information.
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Response to BklnDem75 (Reply #69)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 02:24 PM
Snake Alchemist (3,318 posts)
82. yes. the media often is inaccurate. especially initially. nt
Response to Snake Alchemist (Reply #82)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 03:25 PM
BklnDem75 (2,275 posts)
91. I was referring to live coverage, not speculation.
Response to BklnDem75 (Reply #91)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 03:26 PM
Snake Alchemist (3,318 posts)
92. There was live coverage of the shooting? Then it should be a quick decision by the jury. nt
Response to Snake Alchemist (Reply #92)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 03:39 PM
BklnDem75 (2,275 posts)
93. Mind sticking to the subject?
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Did you forget we were talking about jurors? Please try to keep up.
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Response to BklnDem75 (Reply #93)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 03:41 PM
Snake Alchemist (3,318 posts)
94. You said there was live coverage, no? nt
Response to Snake Alchemist (Reply #94)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 03:48 PM
BklnDem75 (2,275 posts)
97. Of court cases, remember?
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Jurors and non-jurors getting the same information? Do you need to reread the thread? I'm in no rush, take your time.
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Response to BklnDem75 (Reply #97)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 03:51 PM
Snake Alchemist (3,318 posts)
100. Oh, then I agree that if someone watches 100% of the live coverage and reviews 100% of the evidence
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exhibits then they may have a valuable opinion concerning the verdict.
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Response to Snake Alchemist (Reply #100)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 03:59 PM
BklnDem75 (2,275 posts)
103. You're welcome
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Response to BklnDem75 (Reply #103)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 04:01 PM
Snake Alchemist (3,318 posts)
104. Wait, are you going to buy me a 4 million dollar ring? nt
Response to Snake Alchemist (Reply #21)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 11:25 AM
WeekendWarrior (1,311 posts)
27. I'm pretty confident myself
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Last edited Fri Apr 13, 2012, 11:25 AM USA/ET - Edit history (1) I heard the 911 recording:
Are you following him? Yes. We don't need you to do that. OK. Yet he went forward anyway. He was pursuing an unarmed kid and carrying a gun. That kid is now dead. If anyone could claim self-defense, it's Trayvon Martin. Do you think he would have been given the same benefit of the doubt? |
Response to WeekendWarrior (Reply #27)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 12:12 PM
Snake Alchemist (3,318 posts)
34. Surprisingly, you are allowed to follow people. nt
Response to Snake Alchemist (Reply #34)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 12:19 PM
WeekendWarrior (1,311 posts)
41. I think if the police tell you not to and you're carrying a gun
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you should probably listen to them and get the fuck back in your car.
Zimmerman did all he needed to do. Notified the police. Anything beyond that is on him. And a young man is dead because of it. |
Response to WeekendWarrior (Reply #41)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 12:21 PM
Snake Alchemist (3,318 posts)
43. Does not mean you cannot do it though.
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I also do not believe he was given an order.
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Response to Snake Alchemist (Reply #43)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 12:53 PM
WeekendWarrior (1,311 posts)
53. You're right, he doesn't have to, but
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look what happened. A man wound up dead. At his hand. And he was the only one carrying a gun.
And, to my mind, if Trayvon lashed out in any way, HE was the one defending himself. HE was the one standing his ground. Your concern for Zimmerman is noted, however. |
Response to WeekendWarrior (Reply #53)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 12:57 PM
Snake Alchemist (3,318 posts)
55. In your mind? Hopefully, the trial will leave little room for doubt in whichever direction it takes
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Also, I have no love for Zimmerman, but having been burned before I am willing to wait to see how everything unfolds.
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Response to Snake Alchemist (Reply #55)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 01:11 PM
WeekendWarrior (1,311 posts)
62. You're Kidding, Right?
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Last edited Fri Apr 13, 2012, 01:13 PM USA/ET - Edit history (1) Trials are FULL of doubt. The outcome of most trials doesn't come down to the evidence but to the skill and likeability of the attorneys involved and their ability to sway a jury despite what the evidence might say. That justice is sometimes served is a mere by-product of the process. So this belief that a trial will clear anything up is a dubious one.
In this case, however, based on that 911 recording alone, Zimmerman did what he shouldn't have been doing—following what he thought was a "thug" and confronting him. After he had been told not to do that. And despite what you think about the words on the recording, Neighborhood Watch people are ROUTINELY told NOT TO PURSUE, MERELY REPORT. For their own safety. And because Zimmerman was the neighborhood watch captain, he would know this. And your own personal bias—having been burned—has nothing to do with this particular case. He followed an unarmed boy who was merely walking home from the store and shot him. There is no justification for what he did. |
Response to WeekendWarrior (Reply #62)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 01:15 PM
Snake Alchemist (3,318 posts)
63. Confronting him?
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Unfortunately or fortunately, our jury system is the best option we have.
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Response to Snake Alchemist (Reply #63)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 01:17 PM
WeekendWarrior (1,311 posts)
64. Yes, and they sometimes get it wrong
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Hopefully, in this case they won't and Zimmerman will be convicted. And maybe his conviction will be a warning to all the gun happy idiots out there who take to the streets trying to play hero.
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Response to WeekendWarrior (Reply #64)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 01:19 PM
Snake Alchemist (3,318 posts)
66. Hopefully, all evidence will be reviewed and the right verdict will be reached. Whatever that
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may be.
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Response to Snake Alchemist (Reply #66)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 04:25 PM
WeekendWarrior (1,311 posts)
108. I agree. And in my opinion
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—which is all anyone here has to offer—the right verdict is guilty. I'm not beholden to the law in assuming that a man is innocent until proven guilty. That's a legal concept.
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Response to Snake Alchemist (Original post)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 10:58 AM
SaltyBro (46 posts)
10. Of course
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This man stalked and executed a child based solely on his skin colour.
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Response to SaltyBro (Reply #10)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 11:01 AM
Snake Alchemist (3,318 posts)
13. why do we even need a trial? nt
Response to Snake Alchemist (Reply #13)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 11:13 AM
SaltyBro (46 posts)
17. because that is how our country works
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we're a democracy and we have a bill of rights. the right to a fair trial is one of them.
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Response to SaltyBro (Reply #17)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 12:12 PM
Snake Alchemist (3,318 posts)
35. But if we already know the correct verdict than maybe it is a waste of time. nt
Response to SaltyBro (Reply #10)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 11:16 AM
Becka2515 (58 posts)
20. Please stop it
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You or I don't know precisely what went on that night and what was going through Zimmerman's mind at the time, I think him guilty of Manslaughter at the very least but there is no credible facts that point to 1st degree murder.
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Response to Becka2515 (Reply #20)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 12:11 PM
obamanut2012 (9,971 posts)
33. The poster didn't mention M1
Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #33)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 02:11 PM
Becka2515 (58 posts)
79. The post i replied too
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sounded like Zimmerman committed M1, stalking and executing sure sounds like M1. I dont believe that happened that night.
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Response to Snake Alchemist (Original post)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 10:59 AM
HooptieWagon (6,582 posts)
11. Justice will be served...
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... if there is competent prosecutors, competent defense, competent judge, and a competent jury that examines the evidence presented to them and renders a verdict.
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Response to Snake Alchemist (Original post)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 11:08 AM
Egalitarian Thug (7,918 posts)
15. Barring some heretofore unknown, definitively exculpatory, evidence, yes. n/t
Response to Snake Alchemist (Original post)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 11:12 AM
Lex (32,320 posts)
16. Probably a dumb question at this point, but was an autopsy performed on Trayvon?
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And (if there was one) did it show if he was shot in the back or in the chest or what?
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Response to Lex (Reply #16)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 11:17 AM
OneGrassRoot (19,001 posts)
22. The autopsy should answer many questions.
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From what I can tell, the results are still sealed.
I was also wondering how valid the funeral director's comments were. I didn't realize he actually spoke with someone in a fairly public, official way about what he saw: The funeral director who prepared Trayvon Martin's body for burial told a TV anchor that Martin had no injuries to his hands or arms that would indicate a fight had occurred. Richard Kurtz told CNN's Nancy Grace on Wednesday that Martin had a gunshot wound to his upper chest, but any other injury would have been difficult to detect because an autopsy was performed on the teen's body before he received it. "As for his hands and knuckles, I don't see any evidence he had been fighting anybody," Kurtz said. http://www.nbc12.com/story/17286084/trayvon-martins-autopsy-still-under-seal |
Response to OneGrassRoot (Reply #22)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 11:24 AM
Lex (32,320 posts)
26. Yes, the autopsy results will be key then.
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I was slightly worried that they hadn't done one because of how badly bumbled (perhaps intentionally) things have been.
The special prosecutor has seen the results of the autopsy before deciding to file 2nd degree murder charges, and they've been sealed, so there must be some very interesting things in that autopsy report. |
Response to Lex (Reply #26)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 12:14 PM
obamanut2012 (9,971 posts)
36. I was thinking the same thing
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Because I thought the charge would be Manslaughter, but if the autopsy reports show some "interesting" things...
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Response to Lex (Reply #16)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 12:14 PM
NoGOPZone (2,658 posts)
38. The affidavit the prosecution filed during yesterday's hearing
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indicates that Trayvon was shot in the chest. See third paragraph from the end in the following document. Autopsies are routinely performed in cases of violent deaths. That's one thing Sanford got right.
http://media.trb.com/media/acrobat/2012-04/69353440.pdf |
Response to Lex (Reply #16)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 02:08 PM
csziggy (14,413 posts)
77. In the Special Prosecutor's Affadavit of Probable Cause Trayvon was shot in the chest
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http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2012/images/04/12/zimmerman.affidavit.pdf
"Zimmerman shot Martin in the chest." |
Response to Snake Alchemist (Original post)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 11:15 AM
leftynyc (10,487 posts)
18. Of course not
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and I suspect you're merely wanting to stir people up with even asking this ridiclulous question. If it's a fair and public trial and no jurors have been paid or threatened, they will have done their jobs and whatever their decision is is what it is. I don't have to agree with the jury in order to say justice has been done (I think OJ is guilty as sin).
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Response to leftynyc (Reply #18)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 12:14 PM
Snake Alchemist (3,318 posts)
37. Check out some of the posts above ours and you will see some will only be satisfied with one
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conclusion. I used to think OJ and Casey Anthony were guilty as sin. Now I'm not 100% positive for either one.
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Response to Snake Alchemist (Reply #37)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 12:29 PM
leftynyc (10,487 posts)
47. Then some people are not interested in justice
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Justice is a fair trial - all many people were asking for Mr. Martin and his family. If that SYG law is seen by the jury as an acceptable defense, then so be it. Work to change the law - we cannot bend the laws to fit our worldview.
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Response to Snake Alchemist (Original post)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 11:16 AM
RZM (8,309 posts)
19. People walk all the time for crimes they have committed
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It's part of the game.
That being said, I haven't seen all the evidence and I'm not a lawyer, so I really can't say whether or not Zimmerman committed second degree murder. That's what the trial is for I guess. |
Response to Snake Alchemist (Original post)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 11:20 AM
Johonny (11,101 posts)
23. Most DUers wanted the victim to have a day in court
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I don't think any DUer will know how the court case will turn out. Other high profile cases have surprised in the past.
In true metaphysical sense "justice" is beyond knowing or reaching a conclusive definition on internet boards. For starters some think justice can never be served unless the dead kid can pop back to life... defining what justice means to people compared to the justice process is in the US is likely a murky topic. |
Response to Snake Alchemist (Original post)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 11:21 AM
Life Long Dem (8,255 posts)
24. The goalpost seems to be moving
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First it was for justice that he have a trial. Now this is being expanded to a conviction. I myself am still in the camp of innocent until proven guilty. So I'll wait until trial, and hold any mob mentality at bay until then.
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Response to Snake Alchemist (Original post)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 11:28 AM
Skip_In_Boulder (1,834 posts)
29. Justice will be served when we know the facts of this case
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and respond appropriately.
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Response to Snake Alchemist (Original post)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 11:37 AM
Marr (13,929 posts)
31. I think that's obvious.
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Last edited Fri Apr 13, 2012, 11:48 AM USA/ET - Edit history (3) Zimmerman chased and murdered an unarmed boy-- that's not even in dispute. So yes, I think it's fair to say that justice will only be served if he's convicted and sentenced.
But these things aren't about justice. They're about law, and those are completely different things. A jury will decide whether there's a case to convict Zimmerman on the charges, not what is "just". |
Response to Marr (Reply #31)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 12:15 PM
Snake Alchemist (3,318 posts)
39. Chased? Maybe. nt
Response to Snake Alchemist (Reply #39)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 12:33 PM
Lex (32,320 posts)
48. Pursued, at least, AFTER being commanded not to do so.
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nt
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Response to Lex (Reply #48)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 12:34 PM
Snake Alchemist (3,318 posts)
49. He was commanded? nt
Response to Snake Alchemist (Reply #49)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 12:52 PM
Lex (32,320 posts)
52. Told, instructed, advised. He pursued anyway.
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nt
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Response to Lex (Reply #52)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 12:55 PM
Snake Alchemist (3,318 posts)
54. I believe he was told it was not necessary. Far cry from a command. nt
Response to Snake Alchemist (Reply #54)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 01:03 PM
Lex (32,320 posts)
57. Fact remains the 911 record shows he was in pursuit.
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And that is exactly where a jury will place weight.
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Response to Lex (Reply #57)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 01:05 PM
Snake Alchemist (3,318 posts)
58. Yes, and you are allowed to do that. nt
Response to Snake Alchemist (Reply #58)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 01:56 PM
Life Long Dem (8,255 posts)
72. I believe your not allowed to be the aggressor and then claim the SYG law as a defense.
Response to Life Long Dem (Reply #72)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 02:46 PM
Snake Alchemist (3,318 posts)
84. I do not believe that the law considers following an
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Act of again aggression.
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Response to Snake Alchemist (Reply #84)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 03:47 PM
Life Long Dem (8,255 posts)
96. Stalking is a form of aggression.
Response to Life Long Dem (Reply #96)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 03:49 PM
Snake Alchemist (3,318 posts)
98. I am not sure at what threshhold that it becomes stalking. nt
Response to Snake Alchemist (Reply #98)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 03:52 PM
Life Long Dem (8,255 posts)
102. Could be a repetitive thing
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But I think GZ would have a hard time claiming the SYG law when he pursued Trayvon.
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Response to Snake Alchemist (Reply #39)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 01:54 PM
Marr (13,929 posts)
71. Not maybe. This isn't in dispute.
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He pursued Martin after being informed he didn't need to do that. He said Martin was running, and followed. That's chasing.
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Response to Marr (Reply #71)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 02:22 PM
Snake Alchemist (3,318 posts)
81. following is not chasing. nt
Response to Snake Alchemist (Reply #81)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 02:58 PM
Marr (13,929 posts)
86. Yes it is.
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Last edited Fri Apr 13, 2012, 03:02 PM USA/ET - Edit history (2) http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/chase?s=t
to follow in pursuit: to chase after someone. But you're making a legal argument here, when you began with a question of justice. Zimmerman may very well legitimately avoid legal prosecution. That has nothing to do with justice. Given the uncontested information available, I think a reasonable person could say that justice would not be served if Zimmerman walked. |
Response to Marr (Reply #86)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 03:03 PM
Snake Alchemist (3,318 posts)
88. If p then q <> If q then p
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http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/follow
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/chase Very little is uncontested. |
Response to Snake Alchemist (Reply #88)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 03:42 PM
bluesbassman (12,910 posts)
95. So is it your contention that Zimmerman needed to "follow" Martin...
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in order to fulfill his duties as a Neighborhood Watch Captain?
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Response to bluesbassman (Reply #95)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 03:52 PM
Snake Alchemist (3,318 posts)
101. No, merely that following is not always chasing. nt
Response to Snake Alchemist (Original post)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 12:05 PM
Yo_Mama (3,850 posts)
32. Justice can only be served if he gets a fair trial
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Since we don't know all the evidence, esp. the most important stuff, no one of us can truly "know" now that he is guilty of murder two. Granted, we have highly reasonable suspicions. Until the trial we don't know if they are well-founded. Under our system, crimes have to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt in a court. Sometimes that lets the guilty go free or be convicted of lesser charges, but it's still better than shifting the system so that more accused people are convicted of crimes they didn't really commit. Enough are already.
Ultimately the "justice" in a justice system isn't true justice. There's no victim compensation fund that can give the Martin boy his life back, or let his parents get even one more chance to hug him. It's all gone. The only thing we can give the parents now is the knowledge that we all did care about what happened to their son. But that's not justice. A justice system can only be a search to find the truth and to penalize the truly guilty, but it doesn't provide true justice, and most of us here believe that the goal is not to inflict damage on the guilty comparable to what they inflicted on their victims. Really. we believe in attempting to correct the correctable, and in attempting to defend against further wrongs. I think the closest we can come to abstract justice is to protect the rights of the accused, and conduct ourselves so that we reiterate to ourselves and all society that the wrongful death of or wrongful injury to any one of us is an offense to all of us. That would be progress, compared to a century ago. But we shouldn't fool ourselves about justice. There's no way we can make this whole. There's no justice that can be rendered in a true sense. I don't know why such bad stuff often happens to such good people. What I've seen of the parents is heartrending. |
Response to Snake Alchemist (Original post)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 01:25 PM
Kesiyu (6 posts)
68. We are not the jury
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Let's not forget Trayvon Martin inflicted a wound in the back of Zimmerman's head. Many of us progressives originally thought Martin had not hurt Zimmerman at all, but that was not the case. Zimmerman was definitely under Trayvon Martin on the ground, contradicting initial (false) claims that a slim, weak Martin could not have outpowered the large gorilla that Zimmerman was (gorilla he isn't, because recent pictures do not show him as being nearly as heavy as we thought).
Let's wait and see what the jury has to say. |
Response to Kesiyu (Reply #68)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 01:46 PM
uppityperson (74,809 posts)
70. What proof of that "wound" do you have? What proof of Zimmy "was definitely under Trayvon" do you
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have?
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Response to uppityperson (Reply #70)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 02:00 PM
Kesiyu (6 posts)
73. The video enhanced by ABC News
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"ABC News on Monday aired what it said was an enhanced version of a police video taken the night of the shooting that appeared to show wounds or welts on the back of Zimmerman's head."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/media-takes-on-police-like-role-in-trayvon-martin-case-by-analyzing-911-calls-enhancing-video/2012/04/02/gIQAr1HYrS_story.html |
Response to Kesiyu (Reply #73)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 02:07 PM
uppityperson (74,809 posts)
75. That is not proof of either of your assertions. Try again.
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Zimmy "may" have had a welt on the back of his head. He may not. That in no way proves your allegations that Trayvon inflicted a wound OR that Zimmy was "definitely under Trayvon". An editorial saying that many qualifiers in no way proves either of those.
"Let's not forget Trayvon Martin inflicted a wound in the back of Zimmerman's head. Many of us progressives originally thought Martin had not hurt Zimmerman at all, but that was not the case. Zimmerman was definitely under Trayvon Martin on the ground, " Do you think Trayvon attacked Zimmy? Do you think Zimmy should be in prison or out on bail? |
Response to uppityperson (Reply #75)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 04:58 PM
Kesiyu (6 posts)
109. I guess the jury will have to decide if that's a wound
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Do you think Zimmerman trip or hit himself?
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Response to Kesiyu (Reply #73)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 02:11 PM
Life Long Dem (8,255 posts)
78. If the police don't have any photos of Zimmerman's injuries then he has no evidence of injuries
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Forget about using some blurry enhanced video that you really can't tell if there is any injury or not. If the police didn't take photos then there were no injuries. Or no evidence of any injuries anyway. You could enhance the video to show no injury as well.
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Response to Kesiyu (Reply #73)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 02:12 PM
uppityperson (74,809 posts)
80. How does that video prove Zimmy was under Trayvon? I don't see it, would you point it out for me?
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thankyou
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Response to uppityperson (Reply #80)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 04:59 PM
Kesiyu (6 posts)
110. I didn't say it proves it
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It is my opinion that I don't think he hit himself in the back of the head or trip.
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Response to Kesiyu (Reply #110)
BklnDem75 This message was self-deleted by its author.
Response to Kesiyu (Reply #68)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 02:02 PM
BklnDem75 (2,275 posts)
74. We just have to believe Zimmerman was tended to by paramedics...
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but they purposely ignored dressing up a supposed gash to back of his head. Riiiight.
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Response to BklnDem75 (Reply #74)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 02:07 PM
gkhouston (21,642 posts)
76. Yeah... life-threatening damage that didn't even require a butterfly bandage.
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Wish I'd landed on that kind of sidewalk the last time I tripped on uneven pavement.
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Response to BklnDem75 (Reply #74)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 05:01 PM
Kesiyu (6 posts)
111. You say "supposed gash" but it could be a welt
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By saying it's supposed to be a gash, you pretend that he had to have his wound closed. Where do you get gash from?
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Response to Kesiyu (Reply #111)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 05:10 PM
cyberswede (11,583 posts)
113. All this is beside the point...
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there is no reason why he shot a kid to death.
Do you think he was justified? |
Response to Kesiyu (Reply #111)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 05:10 PM
BklnDem75 (2,275 posts)
114. So far, everyone that went with the 'wound to the head' story
Response to BklnDem75 (Reply #114)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 05:14 PM
Kesiyu (6 posts)
116. Never say "everyone"
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Last edited Fri Apr 13, 2012, 05:15 PM USA/ET - Edit history (1) Because blanket statements will likely embarass you. Are you really going to claim that all people described the wound as a gash when talking about the wound? I'd love to believe you, but can't. Why did the AP writer (who is one of the people you cite) not say it was a "gash"? You exaggerate.
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Response to Kesiyu (Reply #116)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 05:44 PM
BklnDem75 (2,275 posts)
117. Actually if you read your own article, it's talking about the media,
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citing ABC News' enhanced video as an example. It's not actually RUNNING with anything, but thanks for your concern.
To save you from an all out search, since it's so important to you, I'll amend my claim to what I've read so far. |
Response to Kesiyu (Reply #116)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 08:59 PM
uppityperson (74,809 posts)
125. Never say "never".
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Or, in your case, never say anything. Thanks to MIRTer.
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Response to Snake Alchemist (Original post)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 02:42 PM
Proud Liberal Dem (11,837 posts)
83. No
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Last edited Fri Apr 13, 2012, 02:44 PM USA/ET - Edit history (1) If Zimmerman is duly acquitted in a court of law that is managed appropriately, then justice will have been served IMHO. The point of seeking "justice" via a trial is not to necessarily convict somebody. It's to examine the facts in a given case in order to determine whether or not a crime was committed and judge accordingly.
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Response to Proud Liberal Dem (Reply #83)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 03:01 PM
MrBig (477 posts)
87. +1 - Exactly what I wanted to say n/t
Response to Snake Alchemist (Original post)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 02:55 PM
Rex (35,073 posts)
85. You've been on the fence since the beginning of this
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no reason to change now. I don't mean that as an insult, I admire you unwillingness to bend to public opinion.
I don't really know- if there is no conviction then where is the justice for the dead kid? If there is a conviction, was justice really served or was Zimm used as a 'sacrificial lamb'. IMO, there are many many people personally involved in this and could face possible convictions themselves if it comes to light that the PD was involved in a cover-up. My personal feelings on this case are that justice will not be served or if it is, then probably bare minimum justice while maybe some of the other collaborators go scott free. So no...no matter what happens I do not think justice will be fully served in this case. Too many things have happened that are abnormal in what was police procedure on that day. |
Response to Rex (Reply #85)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 03:06 PM
Snake Alchemist (3,318 posts)
89. Very true. I have been on the fence.
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I could go either way at this point. I really want to see what the eye witnesses have to say on the stand.
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Response to Snake Alchemist (Reply #89)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 04:15 PM
Rex (35,073 posts)
105. I really want to watch the trial.
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I have a feeling it will be riveting.
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Response to Snake Alchemist (Original post)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 03:09 PM
ZombieHorde (24,094 posts)
90. Is justice a real thing, or is it just something we tell ourselves to make life seem less shity? nt
Response to ZombieHorde (Reply #90)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 04:16 PM
Rex (35,073 posts)
106. Depends on if a person believes in the concept of evil and good imo.
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nt.
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Response to Rex (Reply #106)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 06:43 PM
ZombieHorde (24,094 posts)
118. I believe good and evil are emotional reactions to perceived stimuli.
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Does that count?
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Response to ZombieHorde (Reply #118)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 07:26 PM
Rex (35,073 posts)
119. I don't really know.
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Good question though.
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Response to Snake Alchemist (Original post)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 05:14 PM
H2O Man (48,742 posts)
115. Maybe, maybe not.
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It's impossible to say how the trial will go, or if it will even go to trial. There may be a plea deal, or there is a slight chance of the case being dismissed.
What can be said with absolute certainty is that "justice" is being served, now, today. More, both the prosecutor and defense attorney appear to be class acts, which has already brought a dignity to the legal case that was certainly missing. |
Response to Snake Alchemist (Original post)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 08:24 PM
Better Believe It (18,630 posts)
123. Only if he is found guilty by a jury based on evidence.
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We don't know most much less all of the facts in this case. Until we do it's just speculation. |
Response to Snake Alchemist (Original post)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 08:41 PM
chrisa (3,365 posts)
124. Hopefully a fair trial
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Last edited Fri Apr 13, 2012, 08:41 PM USA/ET - Edit history (1) That determines whether he's guilty or innocent of whatever they're charging him with.
I think it's a dangerous mindset to be 100% sure that someone is guilty or innocent without all of the facts. |
Response to Snake Alchemist (Original post)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 09:09 PM
alarimer (11,773 posts)
126. He clearly shot and killed an unarmed teenager.
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The only thing to determine is whether it was murder or not.
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Response to Snake Alchemist (Original post)
Fri Apr 13, 2012, 10:38 PM
barbtries (15,023 posts)
128. my opinion is
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that justice will only be served if he is convicted and sentenced to serious prison time. there is a teensy tiny chance that evidence revealed during the course of the trial will change my mind. i don't expect that however.
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