Is revolution the only way we can elicit change?

[marym625]

After many discussions, a couple of polls and reading many responses to posts, it seems that the majority believe that to cause any real change we first have to remove money from politics and change personhood to mean only actual people.

However, it also seems that the majority of people believe that these two things cannot be changed while we live in the corpocracy / oligarchy we currently have.

That leads me to the question, is revolution the only way to cause change?

To clarify, I don't mean blood running in the streets. I mean, as Scuba said, "an awaking of the people and a political revolution"

42 votes, 0 passes | Time left: Unlimited
	Yes
	36 (86%)
	No
	5 (12%)
	Yes but violence is necessary
	1 (2%)
	0 DU members did not wish to select any of the options provided.
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[Brigid]

1. I used to hope so . . .

But I seriously doubt it anymore.

[marym625]

2. Me too.

Thank you for your input

[hifiguy]

103. Eeyup.

The last ten years have convinced me that revolution is almost certainly the only answer.

[unrepentant progress]

3. Your question is nonsensical

It implies revolution is orthogonal to change when revolution is merely a category of change.

The better question to ask is if evolutionary change is no longer feasible, or can not address structural inequalities.

[marym625]

7. I do appreciate your input

But I think the question is understood. Though, perhaps, rebellion would have been a better word to use.

Your question would have been a better way to say it, I agree. But I believe what is meant is clear. Especially since you were able to state a better question. Couldn't have done that if you didn't understand what was meant.

I am not trying to blow off your comment. It is correct and appreciated.

[Scuba]

4. If you're talking about blood running in the streets, then my answer is "no".

If revolution covers an awaking of the people and a political revolution, then my answer is "yes".

[marym625]

5. Yes, Scuba

I almost indicated that in the post. Not sure why I changed my mind. I will clarify. Thank you for pointing it out

[Scuba]

14. You're welcome.

[99Forever]

6. In the words of my one and only hero:

[marym625]

8. Love that!

Thank you!

[99Forever]

112. I thought you would.

This song really speaks to the topic of your poll. This ol' world could sure use some John Lennon these days.

[marym625]

122. Could it ever!

[ChiciB1]

171. He Was So MUCH More Than Many Of The Recent

generations since he was alive truly understand or believe. This was the generation I was immersed in and felt so much a part of. There was an energy and belief back then that we REALLY COULD change many wrongs we saw. I know I felt part of THAT Revolution and still believe today that we DID make a difference! I remember the upheaval, violence and backlash back then and we saw much injustice.

I so wish we could energize once again, but we've become much too fractured and uninformed as a nation. Too many people don't bother to vote, too many don't even know the difference between our branches of government and how they're "supposed" to work together! Civics is no longer taught in our schools, and too many people prefer to watch so called "reality" shows that to me aren't realistic at all! Here Comes Honey Boo-Boo, Duck Dynasty, Khardashians and The Real Housewives Of Some City.

The reality is that "we the people" need to understand that unless we do what we can do in our own way, large or small we simply allow the PTB to screw us over!

[99Forever]

173. We, fine lady...

... are kindred souls. I could well have written that myself. We did change the world, but it didn't stick, the me, me, me Raygunites stole it back. They even got a grip on our political party.

[ChiciB1]

202. Should Have Replied To You Sooner, But

I had some things to do and then watched the Festival on MSNBC. At least THEY covered it, made me feel good for a "little" while. Then I wake up this A.M. and ANOTHER shooting in Ferguson... here we go again! If the 2 guys who shot the "police occifer are black, well WE know how that's going to go down! More disgusting attacks on how black people are the ones at fault.

Granted there are times when blacks are at fault, but what we are seeing with the "shoot" ask questions later is mind boggling and a disgrace at the very least.

I have many fears that I see on the horizon and am extremely concerned that it does look like Repukes will take the Senate! Then we can just sit back and watch how fast Congress starts passing legislation and touting how THEY are the party who can get things done! Try as I might working GOTV I'm again appalled by what I'm running into. Not only apathy, but even finding many who don't even know there's an election on Nov. 4!

I wish I felt more confident that Dems will be able to keep the Senate, but if they do, will they even start hitting back and fighting much, much harder against so much crap that Tea Party yo-heads are pushing upon us? I see some steps forward with events like yesterday and the climate change march the weekend before, but not sure if it's going to help with the election in November.

[Wounded Bear]

9. Revolution is change, pretty much by definition...

so if we want to change things, revolution is what we want. The more appropriate question might be: "Is violent revolution necessary?"

Gandhi and King would argue no, I think. But in order to accomplish something, some form of force will be required. When the few control the mechanism of goverment, change is impossible. The "1%," as we like to say, become the immovable object. Can the 'irresistable force' be generated without guillotines and pitchforks? I'd like to think so.

We really do need an awakening. Far too many people are discouraged and disenchanted with participating, thinking it is futile. Meanwhile, we're living through some bizzarro incarnation of 1984 meets the Borg.

[marym625]

10. my favorite comment on current

conditions EVER! "Meanwhile, we're living through some bizzarro incarnation of 1984 meets the Borg."

[Wounded Bear]

11. Yeah...

we seem to be headed somewhere between, "Imagine a boot, pressing down on a human face, forever" and "Resistance is futile."

[marym625]

33. The latter would be the apathy

that we need to address. We have to make people understand that it is apathy that will allow that boot on your face forever.

I am digging your thoughts! Thanks!

[merrily]

81. Respectfully, we do not know what Ghandi and King would say

about the current situation, which is nothing like what either of them faced. All we do is that, when confronted with the exact situation that confronted him at the time, each of those man chose nonviolence--and one of the two was shot anyway.

[marym625]

105. Very true.

And both were well aware that they may end up giving their lives for the cause regardless of their approach

[merrily]

110. I am willing to do that, but I am not willing to

give up my life foolishly. Ghandi could move the nation with a hunger strike because of who he was all his life and because his nation very much wanted to be moved.

If I went on a hunger strike, I would likely die mostly or totally unnoticed.

And JFK's administration was ready to cut the mikes at King's march on Washington and start playing recordings of Mahalia Jackson the second anyone said anything mildly radical. That was something the organizers of that rally knew, but maybe only they did at that time. I heard someone who had written a book about it discussing that on local (Boston) cable tv during the 50th anniversary of the march, but I tuned in after they had said his name and the name of his book.

[marym625]

116. I will have to look for the book

That sounds familiar. I think I might have heard about it on the documentary Eyes On The Prize. I have been looking for that for years and can't find it.

Yeah, I would die pretty quickly with a hunger strike and no one would even know.

(I have no clue what that "Gu" was on my post. Accidentally hit something - DERP!)

[merrily]

124. I figured (as to GU).

[rogerashton]

240. Respectfully, their strategies came from the ideas they shared,

and those ideas are applicable to the current situation, although the details certainly may differ.

Why do we regard violence as the norm and require that nonviolence be justified? Let's turn that around. Can violence be successful in producing the change we want? It never has -- violence has its own logic, and ISIS is the conclusion that follows. But it has been demonstrated, more than twice, that nonviolent revolution can lead to a better society. The challenge is to us, to use our creativity, intelligence and commitment to find the strategies that will work in our situation. Occupy Wall Street was a start, but what they missed is that nonviolence requires leadership and self-discipline to an even greater extent than does violent conflict.

[marym625]

243. Very true

And very well said.

Imagine if OWS had a little better planning. I believe that the bankers would have been prosecuted and much of the deregulation undone.

[merrily]

245. I do not think predicting what people long dead, whom we never even

met once, would do today can possibly be accurate. To me, that is a "duh."

That does not mean that I view violence as the norm. I have posted many times that I am anti-violence, a pacifist and violence is never the correct answer.

[rogerashton]

254. But we can learn from the ideas of our predecessors, and perhaps apply them.

And nonviolence is not pacifism, although as best I understand, pacifists are nonviolent. Whatever is produced by violence can be destroyed by violence, and sometimes destruction is necessary. To take the example of racial equality, I would argue that violence could not create a society with racial equality (and I believe that was MLK's view) but violence could and did destroy the NAZI regime of "scientific racism," and that destruction was necessary to preserve the opportunity for nonviolent action against racism in the US, South Africa, etc. Thus an antiracist could reasonably fight in WWII against NAZIism and join in nonviolent action against Jim Crow, as indeed many did.

[merrily]

256. Whether we can learn from our predecessors is a very different issue from

the one I raised in my reply to you. I think everyone agrees we can learn from our predecessors, if we wish, so that is not an issue.

As to whether nonviolent and pacifist mean the same thing or not, I don't especially want to debate it. Near term, I'd be more than satisfied if everyone in the world picked one of those, whether they mean the same or different. However, I will point out that my post specified both.

[rogerashton]

271. I believe you said

that we cannot know what Gandhi and MLK would have done in our circumstances. Now, in some absolutist sense, of course, this is true -- we cannot know for certainty; we can never know the subjectivity of another. But so what? If we understand their principles, we can make a reasonable judgment as to what they would have done. So what was the point of your post? I took it to be that you feel that, since we cannot know for certain what they would have done, their decisions at that historic time are irrelevant for us. If that was not your point, then I fail completely to understand what it was. If that was your point, then you are mistaken, and that was my point.

[IDemo]

12. The one and only form of revolution that will bring results

Is to put down the pitchfork, take the flaming torch and apply it to your credit cards.

All other actions will be either laughed off, ignored (most likely) or dealt with violently if deemed necessary.

[marym625]

15. Good point

I haven't had a credit card in over a decade. By choice. But it wasn't for any other reason than lack of personal discipline originally. Then, after the banks became rulers of the universe, just couldn't bring myself to get one.

Thank you for your thoughts

[Baitball Blogger]

13. We can pool our money and make our own noise.

Start our own paper, and cultivate a horde of constitutional attorneys who will go after the indiscretions of those who are supporting a status quo that is responsible for the inequities in our society.

[marym625]

17. There was a group that actually tried to do that

I have looked for it a few times after I first saw it but haven't been able to locate it again. They tried to pool money for certain elections with the promise of returning it if they were unable to come up with enough to counter the donations to the opposition.

I remember checking it out to find out if it was a scam and it wasn't. I guess it didn't get very far. Shame.

Thanks for your input

[Chathamization]

16. A mental revolution, or evolution at least. The system we have isn't too bad, but most citizens are

too disengaged. If you had 10% of the population turning out for primaries, voting for progressives, and coordinating their votes you'd have a sudden transformation of the political scene. Or if you had something like 5% of the population spend a few hours a month on progressive activism. It actually would only take a small fraction of the population to make a big difference, but it's hard to even get that small percentage engaged.

Likewise with money in politics, it's mostly a problem because people will base who they vote for on television ads. Diminishing that kind of idiocy, or even having people vote for those who don't take corporate contributions or coordinate with outside PACs (some of that has been happening here), would make a big difference even if the system doesn't change.

Like I said, the current political system isn't too bad all things considered, but the big change has to be the overcoming of personal apathy and disengagement from the populace at large (as well as getting them to shut off the garbage media that poisons the landscape).

[marym625]

20. I have great faith in the upcoming generation.

I am doing some work with a couple charities that work with elementary schools. These kids are activists. One school, with just the kids working for the change, ripped out a ton of asphalt, created a green playground and science "forest" and raised the money by showing the cost effectiveness and the thousands of gallons of water that would be saved. They even installed solar panels.

The results have been amazing and have included neighboring homes no longer flooding.

Just hope we haven't ruined everything by the time they are old enough to run things

[Chathamization]

28. Yes, and perhaps that's why in the end evolutionary change will be more successful than

revolutionary change. And why non-political interactions - spreading ideas of community, stewardship, compassion, instilling values in the younger generation - can be as important in effecting change as something like voting.

The personal views of people do seem to be getting better, but at the same time we've been losing some of our traditional types of communities and organizations that could combine and focus the power of the individual.

[marym625]

31. Very true.

Social media is both a blessing and a curse. As are so many things.

What I find a little frightening is the fact that liberals and conservatives (not Republicans of today but what was a Republican back in the day) are coming to the same conclusion about the lack of hope. It's rather telling.

[RKP5637]

74. Yes, there is great hope in new generations. The older generations, for the most part,

are gone and out of the picture, except to possibly make things even worse. If, there were hope with older generations, we would not be in this perpetual mess today. Many seeds of destruction have been laid by older generations, I hope the cumulative and interactive effects do not prevent success for future generations in cleaning up the mess. BTW, I am speaking globally, not just of the US.

[marym625]

76. Some of us older folks

Try to be active

I see something in the generation now in elementary school that I didn't see in generation now ending HS or in college. I do have hope when I see these little ones in action.

[RKP5637]

86. I see in them some of the spirit we had in the 60's when hoping to

make a better world. There was an esprit de corps back then I've not seen in years which IMO was all but annihilated by the "Me Generation." Yep, quite true! "Some of us older folks Try to be active "

[marym625]

98. ah that damn me generation

I remember Al Frankin on SNL saying that the next generation, after the "me" generation, should be the "me generation. Everything you do should be thought about how it will effect me, Al Frankin." Or something like that.

other older activist!

[Shankapotomus]

18. No

I find running away from people works even better.

[marym625]

22. There is always that option

[Shankapotomus]

24. The Inca

used it at Machu Picchu quite effectively.

[marym625]

29. That always puts me in mind of the song

"One Tin Soldier" don't know how old you are so you may not know it. Not a good song but it was popular when I was little.

[Shankapotomus]

32. Had to YouTube it

Lovely song.

[marym625]

34. Now I have to listen to it again

Not sure if "lovely" is serious or not. But it made a big impression on me when it was popular.

[Shankapotomus]

35. Yes it was

It is a very charming song.

[marym625]

36. Thank you

For letting me know. I really wasn't sure

[Zorra]

19. Yes, most likely. I wish it wasn't so, but the ability to democratically determine our national

destiny has been stolen from us by the 1%, and the only way to get it back from them is to take it through focused, extremely well planned, effective, and relentless non-violent democratic direct action, that has in place foolproof safeguards that will prevent conscienceless, greedy authoritarian egotists from ever assuming power before and/or after transition.

The next step is to insure that the people are well provided with the necessities of life during transition, and maintain the degree of freedom and safety to which they are accustomed until the new democracy is able to increase their freedom to the point where we can genuinely democratically choose our own national destiny as one united people, and effect our own means to increase our safety and happiness, free from interference from the self-interested greed and megalomania of those who would seek to control our government for their own pleasure. Which they are doing right now to the extreme detriment of all the other people in our country and our world.

Changing the power structure is always risky business; rulers from the economically privileged and morally/ethically bankrupt class never give up their place, and their power willingly, and will commit all manner of crimes against humanity in order to maintain and increase their wealth, power, control, and authority.

Jefferson thought it out very well while he was writing the Declaration of Independence, but he and the other revolutionaries of his day were unable to install the safeguards necessary to prevent wealthy sociopaths from taking over the government because of the necessity of compromising with those who were already asserting that the rights of commercial interests needed to be recognized as sometimes necessarily taking precedence over the will and rights of the people. The 1% sabotaged democracy in the US pretty much before day one, and the conundrum we face today regarding our national situation is the direct result of the founders not implementing safeguards to prevent wealthy sociopaths from usurping the government of the United States.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security...."

It takes a village to raze a government.

[marym625]

25. Thank you for that we'll thought out

and clear response. Truly appreciated. I believe you should expand on it and make it a post. I am very serious and sincere

[Enthusiast]

147. PLUS ONE, a huge bunch!

[wundermaus]

21. If the changes were possible through the political process...

it would have already happened.
It has not.
"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." - John F. Kennedy.

[marym625]

26. awesome quote!

I may make that my signature line.

Thank you!

[Louisiana1976]

85. Right on!

[RKP5637]

104. I've lost faith in the electoral process. Will another president, another one after that

make any difference. Will changing congressional critters help. What I see is a corrupt system wherein money, greed and propaganda now manipulate and rule the system. Most things for the better have never come easy in the US, the obstacles are generally almost insurmountable, and greed and power rule. I wish it weren't that way, but from what I see, the system has been broken and now we have the remnants hanging on. I don't have a solution, but just saying it as I see it today. I find it quite sad.

[marym625]

108. exactly how I see it

Adding that the police have gone rogue. Instead of protecting the citizens, they're protecting their power

[RKP5637]

118. From what I see, DHS militarized the local police becasue they know there is so much

unrest in this country, often under the surface. TPTB saw this with OWS and systematically crushed OWS. We have a very toxic environment brewing in the US. It is so sad to see this occurring. Often I wonder today, is our government our friend or foe. And even SCOTUS is now yet another political operative. It's disgusting! And the surveillance net is tightening day by day, and citizens just wanting to make life better for all might will find themselves declared an enemy of the state for no reason other that saying, this is wrong.

[marym625]

125. I feel silly just saying yeah, I agree

But, I just keep agreeing with you!

Don't get me started on the current SCOTUS! That's the biggest reason we need a liberal in the white house next term.

[Bohunk68]

158. This is exactly the conclusions that I have been coming to.

Like so many of us, I have been waiting for the revolution for so long. I had high hopes for OWS. I view with trepidation that TPTB will bring the troops home to use on the rest of us.

[marym625]

169. what a thought!

What a really horrible thought.

Horrible because it ring so true

[RKP5637]

172. Sadly, I think this is quite possible, because it has become us 'vs' them. The military and

local police have become defenders of the 1%. Dwight Eisenhower warned the country of this years ago, and none in authority listened as the USA became USA, Inc. and the MIC seized control.

[Eleanors38]

23. I think revolutiin is prob. needed, hopefully a Gandhian

one, though even here some violence occurred, and the Indian experience was limited to throwing off a formal imperial iccupation. Here, we must deal with an entrenched corporate state which will seek to use the coercive power of the military, its near-ownership of the mass media, and employ attempts to disrupt the "new" media, all.to remain in unquestioned power. Still, a non-violent and disruptive effort might work.

The bigger question remains: in post-mass media America, what constitutes community, and what counts for legitimacy so the population can act? Until that is discovered, we'll post here, go about our lives in a crippled consumer economy, and be given gobs of choice, choice, choice! on ever cheaper displays. Technology has rid us of old institutions, but we haven't replaced them with anything more than chat rms. and faster mail-order. as a nation, as a people, as a community we are blind and impotent.

[marym625]

27. Very nice, Eleanor

Though seems we almost always agree.

I believe that I'd why our app would be incredibly helpful. Just wish I had the skills to create it.

Thank you!

[Eleanors38]

30. You are welcome.

[BKH70041]

37. Yes, and violent revolution at that.

I read about it here, but I'm not part of it.

But to answer your question and to put it in the vernacular of those who see it the way they do, the only thing non-violent revolution will do is put people in office who the 1% can buy off. And that's even if they're able to do that, which I have no evidence there's enough of them to date. By staying non-violent, they're automatically sending a message they aren't willing to pick up a weapon and die for what they believe. There's no reason to respect someone who isn't willing to die. I read other sites and there's a whole bunch of their opposition just itching for them to make a move so they can shoot their ass. My guess is many here have read the same things and don't want to go down that road because they suspect they'd lose. I suspect they're right.

The USA became what it is today because a bunch of people were willing to die for freedom. Anything less is just talk.

[marym625]

38. I appreciate your comment

Personally, I hate violence. I honestly can't even watch the chicken and Peter fight on Family Guy. (Yes I realize how stupid that is.)

However, I completely agree that if you aren't willing to die for the cause, there's little point in participating.

I have very mixed feelings on this. Look what Dr. Martin Luther King Jr accomplished. But at the same time, there were violent protests. Would anything have been accomplished without both? And both the violent and nonviolent protesters were willing to die for the cause.

Thank you for your thoughts. Very appreciated.

[marym625]

40. I added a 3rd option. eom

[RadicalGeek]

39. If We Do Have One

I think it will be more based on information than anything else.

Most of us here I think realize an armed rebellion is futile, and best left to the NRA,etc.

I also think that the "awakening" is slowly happening; one need only look to North Carolina and it's "Moral Mondays".

[marym625]

42. I am not familiar with that

I will check it out.

Thank you

[marions ghost]

217. agree

--awakening is happening...

[RadicalGeek]

249. Yes, But

It's taking forever!

Too many folks busy watching "Duck Dynasty" and "Honey Boo-Boo" between listening to AM-Radio and watching it's cable news affiliate!

[marions ghost]

250. Some will lead

...those are the followers. Don't worry about them.

Yes, any significant change takes time...it builds...it has a rhythm and trajectory.

Find your place in it. Those who are aware need to take a stand no matter how small. Come together with others. It builds....

[RadicalGeek]

263. I should perhaps let you know

That I can have the patience of a gnat!

[marions ghost]

272. ha ha

I know...me too...

And it's getting worse even for those who are not naturally ADD. We live in an instant world. We get annoyed at the slightest delay or non-deliverance of expected rewards. We rush through everything.

In these social political efforts it's best to hunker down and seek endurance. Meanwhile work toward the goal. My mom taught me that. I asked her how she accomplished all she accomplished (some of it in activist areas). Her answer was "brick by brick." And I suddenly realized how hard that kind of patience is. But our opponents have much patience.

Endurance. Stamina. Relentlessness. If you don't have it, latch onto a friend who does. Works for me.

[RadicalGeek]

274. As One Of My (more Conservative) Friends Would Say

"It's a marathon--not a sprint"

(Alas it sometimes seems that progressives sometimes see it as a series of sprints)

[marions ghost]

276. True that

...we progressives are not as dogged by nature. Doggedness is bad when it's obsessive and inflexible, good when it helps get a job done. The Tortoise and the Hare...

Stay the course. Even if a little erratic

[Orsino]

41. The Powers That Be are making peaceful revolution less feasible.

I am very afraid of what that means.

[marym625]

43. judging from the votes so far

It looks like you are correct.

I am actually surprised at the votes. I thought it would be pretty well split.

Thank you

[pansypoo53219]

44. have they tried that voting thing?

[marym625]

45. Who is "they?"

I would have to believe that everyone here votes.

[ZombieHorde]

46. Violence will happen.

We see this every time liberals stand up for themselves, such as OWL and Ferguson. Blood has been running in the streets, and it will continue to do so. Why do you think police have military equipment? It's so they can kill us easier.

[marym625]

48. No doubt

But as someone else pointed out, look at Gandhi.

Whatever happens, I believe it will happen in our lifetime. And I agree completely that is why the militarization of the police. The government knew it was coming before most of us did

Thank you

[ZombieHorde]

50. While Gandhi wasn't violent (except toward his wife)

but the British were very violent, and then after the British backed down, the Indian Muslims and Hindus were violent. It was a violent revolution.

[marym625]

52. yes

I specifically meant Gandhi and his followers.

I guess I wasn't clear. I am positive that the government would be violent toward any protest. They've already proven that. But how far would we get to go after the government with guns ablaze?

This is a very frightening conversation. The entire thread. As well as a real possibility. I don't relish the thought no matter how it goes down. But there will come a point when people just can't do anything but fight back.

[ZombieHorde]

67. Takes a lot of strength to peacefully stand up against violence, in my opinion.

Though many liberals have proved that they do indeed have that strength, but for how long? How many parents, children, spouses, and siblings can be brutalized before both sides turn violent?

But how far would we get to go after the government with guns ablaze?

Not very far at all, which is why I suspect people would go after the 1%. People may burn down their homes and intuitions and then kill them as they flee. The Tea Party militias would probably defend the 1%, but they may start shooting at federal agents too, since they seem to hate them. Things could get very ugly.

Or maybe things wouldn't get that bad. Maybe those who hold power will give it up without too much of a fight.

[marym625]

72. I wonder if the rank and file

Tea party supporters might actually wake up to what the 1% are doing. And how they are being used.

[ZombieHorde]

75. I have no idea.

Some of them might. There seems to be different types of Tea Party folks, but I don't have them pegged down. I need to consume more TP propaganda to understand them better.

[marions ghost]

218. It will be a peaceful revolution

--tho I disagree that those in power will give it up without a fight.

There is no possibility of a violent revolution "working."

I'm with Gandhi on that point.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

47. You are assuming there is a majority who want fundamental or radical change

The words seem to be antonyms but they aren't . Radical comes from the word root.

Anyway, I was having this conversation with this gentleman at the North Hollywood Metro-Station who was giving out newspapers from the Socialist Workers party. He is an adjunct professor at Valley College in L A. We were talking about how the working class is the least receptive to the socialist message.

[marym625]

49. Not assuming anything.

And I don't believe that the answers here would represent the answers in the general public.

I do believe you are correct about the working class. I don't understand how so many vote against their own best interest.

That said, I do believe something big will happen in the way of revolt sooner rather than later.

Thank you for your input

[DemocratSinceBirth]

53. There are parties well to the left of the Democratic party on the ballot...

And collectively they garner less than one percent of the vote. Of course that should tell folks something beyond the fact they don't have any money to get their message out.

As for unrest it's as likely to come from the right than from the left. Look at the Tea Party. They actually have representatives in the House and Senate even if they call themselves Republicans.

As America becomes more diverse the threat is more likely to come from the right as those that cling to the America of old feel they are losing something.

My biggest fear is that if there is mass unrest most folks will identify with folks who look like them regardless of the merit of their cause. That should scare the Hell out of any sentient person.

Most "revolutions" don't turn out well, imho, and the last revolution that did was our revolution and it was largely a bourgeoisie one.

[marym625]

55. That is truly one frightening thought

Frightening and sad. But most likely what would happen

[DemocratSinceBirth]

59. I think most folks get along when things are relatively calm.

That being said I can think of no more dog eat dog situation than prison and in prison groups separate themselves almost exclusively by race.

You are saying that big business rules America. I would suggest they have been doing so since the beginning. We have muddled through for two hundred and fifty years. Hopefully we will muddle through another two hundred fifty years.

[marym625]

64. Not to the degree they do now

And a great deal of that shift is due to deregulation, personhood for corporations and decisions like Citizens United. And that shift has made a big difference.

I get your point about prison. But it wasn't true when when unions first came along and the protests that caused them to form.

I do not have the answers. But I don't think we can survive another 250 years like this

[marions ghost]

219. We definitely cannot survive another 250 years like this...

the present course is unsustainable.

[marym625]

223. nope

Something has to give.

When the greater majority of people are treated like a step above slaves, law enforcement is literally murdering innocent citizens without retribution, big oil is allowed to continually run roughshod over government and the people and we slowly but surely lose the respect of the world, the future is bleak

[Puzzledtraveller]

61. Iphone 6 just came out

If TV was the opiate of the masses, then the internet is the crystal meth of the masses.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

63. My gf has the Samsung 3. It looks nice. I don't have a flip phone but I do have a cell phone./NT

[Puzzledtraveller]

66. I only recently got a smart phone

A hold out, like I was with music, still clinging to my LP's, tapes and CD's, I loathed digital downloads. So I got a Lumia 521, windows phone, it's enough for me, for the price it offers quite a bit. The camera is lacking a bit but is more than enough for me. I like it's functionality with my other devices as they are also Microsoft products.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

77. I have a slide phone. I don't even know how to text. LOL.

But as long as folks have all these distractions I don't see a revolt. I think some of us here overrate how much real dissatisfaction there is with the system and I mean dissatisfaction that is so strong that they want a fundamentally different one. That's an empirical observation and not a normative one.

I think folks on the left usually talk to other folks on the left and folks on the right usually talk to other folks on the right and consequently think everybody thinks like them. There are a lot of folks who don't think like us, to think there are strikes me as a conceit.

Sometimes i find myself in places where people aren't thrown together by ideology like the gym and sports boards and soon learn there are a lot of right wing thinkers out there.

[Puzzledtraveller]

82. I agree completely

I have been a caseworker for 5 years in Kentucky. I see families and individuals struggling daily to put food on the table and to provide healthcare for themselves and their children. Though they often share their dissatisfaction with me as I do their SNAP and Medicaid applications, often times agreeing with them, they never utter words like revolt, revolution. One of my responsibilities is to ask them if they are registered to vote, and if they are not, and if they wish to register, I assist them with that. Even after the sometimes lengthy discussions (some interviews take more time than others) about the cost of gas, food, housing, rent, student loans, lack of jobs, child care, the ones who are not registered often decline. They say things like, they don't care, it doesn't matter who I vote for, etc.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

101. KY is a pretty culturally conservative state.

How many of those poor folks that are white would vote Republican if they did vote?

Some poster up thread is musing that the 99% might attack the 1%. This might seem like a cliche but a lot of the 99% think they can be the 1% or that their children can be.

When I was taking Poli Sci classes in the 80s the UK was held out as a stratified society where class determines everything and upward mobility in a generation or multiple generations was limited and the U.S. was held out as a place where upward mobility, which was by no means certain, was more likely. Now it's upside down and we are the stratified society with much less upward mobility and upward mobility is much more likely in Europe but the "you can be anything you want" myth endures.

[greatauntoftriplets]

78. I got a Lumia 635 phone about a month ago.

It has all the bells and whistles I need and cost lots less than an iPhone!

[Puzzledtraveller]

90. Indeed

My wife has T-Mobile and she had only recently got a smart phone, I was still using a generic flip phone and adamant about not giving in and getting a smart phone as I often poke fun at all the people who go around looking down all the time. After I saw hers and what it could do I relented, we were able to get a second Lumia 521 for only $5 a month for a year added to the monthly bill, not bad at all. Like you, more than enough for me. So not longer after I got my first smart phone I went to a doctor appointment and chuckled quite audibly as I pulled my phone out and began to look down at my phone, like everyone else in the waiting room.

[greatauntoftriplets]

92. LOL. I had a doctor appointment about a week after I got the phone.

But didn't have to wait. I have another next month, one that usually involves a very long wait. Guess I'll see what happens then.

[agent46]

51. Revolution doesn't work

We can no longer lie to ourselves about being able to bring incremental change through protest and the ballot box. The only real option now is massive civil and social disobedience. We have the technology at our fingertips to make it happen but it never will as long as Americans keep letting themselves get suckered into fighting over trivial partisan turf like soccer hooligans.

[marym625]

54. yep.

I am trying to find a programmer to design an activist app. Something that would be similar to Grinder. Just would have a different kind of happy ending

[merrily]

84. If you find a programmer that will work for free, pm me.

I have lots of ideas for change that could really use a free programmer.

[marym625]

94. I will do that

I am hoping to find one. There has to be somebody that would take it on

[merrily]

113. I have posted several times about how we could

really use two huge websites, one for the US and one for the entire world, to publicize activism issues and events. (Now, I'll throw in a third for fundraising, so we can publicize the other two.) So far, no one raised his or her hand.

I am coming to the conclusion that most people who post on political boards want to post.

[marym625]

119. sad isn't it

I posted about the app in the activism group. Have had 4 replies in well over a week

[merrily]

123. I am going to check that out!

[Chathamization]

199. I posted something similar; there doesn't seem to be a good website for progressive organizing that

I know of. The other problem would be that even if one was created we'd need a push to publicize it and get people to actually join.

We did have some success with this back in '03, when blogs on the Left spread the word about the Dean meet ups organized on meetup.com, which helped Dean move from a third tier candidate to a frontrunner. Theoretically there's nothing to stop, say, a consortium of progressive groups (CAP, DFA, WFP, DSA, etc.) from setting up local progressive meetings on meetup.com every two months and pushing for people to get out there and organize. Certainly you could do much more with a site tailored specifically for activism (connect with people/groups who want to work on specific issues, search for people offering specific skills, choose which news feeds to get, etc.), but it's worth noting that by and large we're not even utilizing the tools we currently have available.

[merrily]

246. Exactly. Every idea I have that might have some impact

circles back to money. Even a website created by volunteers would need to be publicized before it could be effective. Ditto an economic boycott or a tax strike (but that could have awful consequences for the country) or anything else I think of.

Yet, I have become very leery of giving money online to individuals who claim to be in need or who claim they are going to do something with the money of which I approve. So, it's Catch 22 every which way.

[merrily]

58. You mean, my life doesn't really depend on whether

Obama had a coffee cup in his hand when he waved at the troops--and not only because Bush had a dog in his?

You mean all the dreck that the media focuses on 24/7 does not really feed or educate my kids or ensure that the killing being done in my name is "just," whatever the hell "just killing" means?

Why, suh, I hereby challenge you to a duel!

[Enthusiast]

153. Pfft!

[URL=.html][IMG][/IMG][/URL]

[Puzzledtraveller]

65. There is two prongs.

The one keeps those who at least think they are paying attention bickering among one another and opposing the other side, as much as soccer and NFL hooligans in a league that only has two teams, the blue and red team. The other, and much more successful prong as it includes everyone is the new opiate of the masses's, the internet. More like crystal meth now, the internet, as long as it stays on, no one will bothered enough to look up.

[merrily]

156. I agree and have cited those things myself.

Probably, there are more than only two prongs, though.

Like the need to work two jobs, worry about money anyway, and raise a family keeps many people from focusing on anything else. Like the fact that the media are establishment, even the ones that supposedly are not.

Like the fact that many of the people who would have been likeliest to lead a revolution of any kind are now aged out of that and many who are younger have no clue what life under liberals is like, etc.

[merrily]

56. Other: I am not at all sure that revolution would bring change, if we are

talking about changing the oligarchy/plutocracy or the plutonomy.

Sure, we might change the faces and some forms, as we did by the Revolution. But the system remained mostly a plutocracy, just not one appointed by the Crown. The Constitution, as the Framers wrote it, and legislatures ratified it, enshrined some of the worst abuses, some expressly and some by omission.

If a slave on the plantation next door to George and Martha Washington's plantation rejoiced because Washington's troops had won that war instead of the redcoats, his or her joy sure wasn't because America had changed fundamentally.

[marym625]

57. man am I getting depressed

The more people comment, the more it seems we're just stuck. I can't believe that's true. Well, I don't want to believe it.

Thank you

[merrily]

60. Another poster suggested massive civil disobedience.

We need to get organized and, most of all, we need to put our money where our mouths (or keyboards) are. It takes money even to get enough of us to engage in civil obedience to matter. Ditto economic boycotts, of which I am a huge fan.

What if the poll results were that a revolution would fix everything? Would that have been more cheerful? If so, why?

[marym625]

68. Not the poll results

The comments that are basically saying, we're stuck. Nothing will matter.

I am actually glad to see so many saying we need to do more than vote (which is how I am interpreting the votes) I know it is important to vote but I don't believe that will really change anything. Look at where we are.

[merrily]

70. But, some comments are saying there is stuff we can do.

[marym625]

73. Very true

Guess I got caught up in a few.

Thank you

[merrily]

91. btw, I meant violent revolution.

I am not at all sure what Scuba means or how one gets there.

[marym625]

100. He posted about 3rd response

to the OP.

[merrily]

102. Yes, I saw his post. I still don't know.

Nothing whatever against Scuba, with whom I often agree.

[marym625]

114. ask him

I believe he just meant he doesn't think we should storm the white house with guns ablaze but should organize, get truthful information out, protest en masse and let the powers that be know, we're not going to take this any longer.

However, now that I am saying it, I am actually not sure either. Seemed clear reading it. Reiterating it, not so much.

[Initech]

62. Overthrowing the oligarchy / military industrial complex would certainly help.

Otherwise it will just be same shit, different year.

[marym625]

69. As it has been now

For many many years

Thank you

[merrily]

71. How do you think you overthrow it, though?

[questionseverything]

79. prosecute the evil doers

increase the death tax so money is more fairly distributed

bring back the fairness doctrine,,,when the kochs buy a minute of air time an opposing view point receives 30 secs to rebut for free

hand count our votes

[merrily]

83. With the exception of hand-counting our votes, you are talking

about things Congress and the President can do Monday, if they chose. So, I don't think those things answer my question or the OP's.

If I knew how to move Congress and the President, I'd be at it 24/7.

[questionseverything]

93. here is one evil doer we could get to

http://www.bradblog.com/?p=10822

Washington Post Finally Calls for Investigation, Impeachment of Wife-Beating Federal Judge



By Brad Friedman on 9/23/2014, 6:05am PT

Well, it took long enough for Washington Post's editorial board to take notice of wife-beating U.S. District Court Judge Mark Fuller, but at least they finally have...

THE CONSTITUTION says that federal judges "shall hold their Offices during good Behaviour" - for life, that is, unless they commit an impeachable offense. Which brings us to the allegations of domestic violence against Mark E. Fuller, a U.S. District Court judge in Montgomery, Ala.

The paper then details the police response to the horrifying 911 call from Fuller's wife Kelli after the Judge reportedly "threw her to the ground, pulled her by the hair, kicked her and hit her in the face" (the actual 911 call is more horrifying still), leaving her bloodied inside their Ritz-Carlton hotel room in Atlanta on August 9th, and the disturbing similarities to the case of the NFL's Ray Rice, who was also allowed off the hook by the court system after beating up his then-fiancee/now-wife, as "first time offenders". (Even though Judge Fuller's previous wife alleged similar physical abuse during their divorce trial).
///////////////////////


fuller protects the mic by always ruling for them on the federal bench,,,while he is making money selling the same mic stuff

[merrily]

89. Okay, so Monday, then?

[questionseverything]

99. see my post #83

even my repubteaparty rep does not wish to stand with a wife beater/child beater (who also happens to be part of the mic)

[merrily]

106. Do you mean 93? I don't think finally impeaching one judge is going

to change our political structure.

[questionseverything]

109. yes 93

what do you call getting one neocon bush appointed judge off the federal bench?

answer: a good start

[merrily]

111. I call it "in all likelihood, a one of."

And even that is probably going to happen, if it does, only because of the uproar about women since Todd Akins, with a big boost from the NFL mess.

[questionseverything]

117. we need to make sure it happens

all it takes is making sure the details are widely known about fuller

http://wantedalabamademocrats.blogspot.com/2012/07/the-case-for-impeaching-federal-judge.html

[merrily]

121. I think most or all of DU knows about this case.

The trick is to get mass media to publicize it more than they publicize a cup of coffee (tea?) in Obama's hand when he gets off a plane.

[questionseverything]

130. msm follows the net now

while most of du probably does know about it, i have not seen it on the greatest page but i have seen the cupgate thing on the greatest page.....so that is a mistake on our part

[merrily]

133. Yes, a mistake on the part of some here. However, that means only that

the msm is succeeding in one of its missions, which is to divert our attention from what really matters to the 1% and focus it on things that the 1% couldn't really care less about.

For example, Rove doesn't think it important that Obama had a cup in his hand, but Rove does think it important to divert our attention. So, Rove is on Fox yelling about how disrespectful it was. (Saw that on The Daily Show--the only bits of Fox I get to see are the ones other shows re-broadcast.) And Rove could not even totally suppress a grin as he yelled.

[questionseverything]

139. fuller is rove's guy

impeaching/prosecuting fuller might make the next rove guy think twice

[merrily]

143. Obviously, I am in favor of impeaching and convicting Fuller.

I just don't think that impeachment is as relevant to this thread as you do.

[questionseverything]

148. prosecuting the evil doers

(hopefully) would open the way for good judges and pols to take their place

maybe it would catch on..velvet revolution has been making a case for years to impeach sc justice thomas

http://www.velvetrevolution.us/tag/virginia_thomas/

[merrily]

151. Yes, so does a bad judge passing away, but only if

a better one is later appointed to replace him or her. Many bad judges have died, but the plutocrats are still in control.

I think the thread is asking about fundamental political change that we can effect and you are talking about things that happen very rarely, if ever, within the existing political system, if someone in power feels like it or deems it necessary to cya for political reasons.

BTW, I am also in favor of impeaching Thomas, but I doubt it will ever happen, also for political reasons.

[Enthusiast]

150. We had our chance to prosecute the evil doers.

We chose to look forward instead.

I'm with you on the Fairness Doctrine.

Ever hear Limbaugh squeal about restoring the Fairness Doctrine? He makes a distinctly porcine sound.

[Initech]

88. Arresting the MIC for war crimes and holding our own Nuremburg-style trials.

Lots of information was revealed about the Nazi empire and the end of World War II during the Nuremburg trials. Perhaps if we put our own elite on trial we might really learn the truth behind a lot of these bogus wars. Dick Cheney and the rest of the BFEE should definitely stand trial before Dick Cheney's excuse for a heart explodes out of his chest.

[merrily]

95. I thought we were talking about what it takes on our part to effect change.

Please see my reply 83.

[questionseverything]

107. ...

Illinois

On April 20, 2006, State Rep. Karen Yarbrough introduced a resolution calling for the impeachment of Bush.[34]

On July 10, 2006, the twin cities of Champaign and Urbana, Illinois placed initiatives on the November 2006 ballot calling for a rapid and orderly withdrawal from Iraq, as well as the impeachment of both Bush and Cheney.[35]

[marym625]

127. UofI territory

Not going to find that kind of spirit everywhere, unfortunately.

One of the things Pres Obama said he would do was go after those guilty of war crimes. Instead, he gave them a pass.

[questionseverything]

134. yes not prosecuting the war criminals, torturers is his biggest failure

but there is no sol on war crimes

[marym625]

138. Doesn't the executive order

preclude it now?

[questionseverything]

141. hmmm which eo?

eo orders do not have the full weight of law behind them...more like the pirates code, or a suggestion

[marym625]

146. Sorry was looking for it

I remembered it a little wrong.

Got this from a post from yesterday (or the day before) by woo me with science, who posted this in his own post

http://www.democraticunderground.com/11781446
Unhappycamper posted it in 2013

[questionseverything]

163. ok the improper use of the westfall act by current doj

what one doj does can be undone by the next and/or that immunity only extends to US courts

[marym625]

165. I believe it is

Malaysia bush was convicted of war crimes. I know there are other countries he can't go to or he will be tried.

I wasn't sureif that could be undone here. I sure hope so. Though, I don't think anyone is going to do.

[questionseverything]

142. scroll down to #34

on this link

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2863118

lots more than u of i on the list

[marym625]

149. Thank you

I knew it more but I didn't remember it was that long. I thought Chicago did too, but we're not on the list. I thought we were one of the first ones

Thanks for the link. It's a shame that so many of us wanted it and it still didn't happen. Kind of shows we don't mean shit

[Enthusiast]

155. We let that bunch get away with so much during and after Iran-Contra.

There is no going back. Behind the scene the Neo-Con faction still has great power and influence over the government.

[questionseverything]

168. yes if we had gone up the chain of command then

many of the bad players would not be free now ( or at least not in positions of power)

[rock]

80. As some responders have already pointed out

The question as asked depends on what you mean by "revolution". Let me answer this way:The republicans have found out they can NOT have things their way within a Democracy and that is why they are using extra curicular means (i.e. illicit and illegal). We on the other hand can still put things right (to our way of thinking) strictly within the workings of a Democracy. We do have to unit3e and coorperate to achieve this. So the short answer to question is, "No". But that does not mean we will succeed in achieving our goals.

[marym625]

128. My fear is....

that we cannot achieve those goals while the media is owned by 3 people, the internet is about to controlled by 2 people and ALL the money in the ads comes from Bros Koch.

Obviously, I exaggerate a bit but not really by much.

We've been trying for quite a while now and have not been able to do so. Presidential elections have actually been stolen. How do we fight within the system?

[RKP5637]

174. We would need an extremely strong president, someone like FDR, but I've seen none. However, IMO

most of it is rigged now. And, we have endless money flowing into elections and bribes. It's getting more and more a ridiculous system to even be called a democracy.

[marym625]

177. so very true! eom

[rock]

175. That is a serious fear

The single biggest factor that I can think of that will improve our chances of success is GOTV. I believe if we're serious in getting out the vote, we can overcome those items you just mentioned.

[marym625]

180. I am trying

But I don't know if it will do anything even if everyone votes.

I hate taking a wait and see approach because we've been doing that for a long time now

[Chathamization]

203. The thing is the "we" who have been trying are a tiny fraction of the population, and disorganized

And a political revolution isn't going to change that, and likely would make things worse (if you don't have the numbers now, it's unlikely they'll suddenly materialize in a revolution).

There's actually a lot that's getting accomplished - marriage equality, universal healthcare, public financing of elections, raising the minimum wage, universal pre-k, ending marijuana prohibition, progressives and socialists getting elected, etc. A very small percentage of the population - maybe 0.5% - has been trying for a while, and they've been relatively successful considering how apathetic the rest of the population is. These changes are happening, but they'd happen a lot quicker if even 20% of the people who considered themselves progressives paid attention and showed up sometimes.

How many people pay attention to primaries or local races? We have a couple of important ones coming up here, and every time I try talking to people about them, including people that are fairly progressive and watch MSNBC everyday, all I get are blank stares.

[marym625]

204. It seems weird to say I am isolated

But in Chicago, we like to protest. We like being loud. So in that aspect, it's a different story.

I understand that some changes have been made for the better in some places, in some ways. But there is still a very long way to go in each thing you mentioned.

That being said, it proves your point about apathy.

Someone had mentioned striking. I think that is the way to go. We take a lesson from our history and use it.

I am trying to work on an app with a couple people. If we can pull it off, we might actually have a better chance of getting something done.

That's lots of ifs. But I can't do nothing.

[Chathamization]

208. It's happening slowly because so few people are working on it. It's like being in a group house with

10 people and being the only one who cleans up. When you ask others to help clean, they tell you that it's no use because the house stays dirty no matter what and if it could be cleaned it would have by now. You can probably imagine the words you'd be trying to swallow after that. Time and effort have to be taken into account when judging these things. If you go on a diet and exercise for 6 weeks and get into shape, then stop for 6 months and get out of shape, it doesn't mean that dieting and exercise are useless. There's a lot of political work that's effective when enough people do it, but just doesn't get done by enough people most of the time.

For me - something like a strike focused on political change doesn't make much sense. Elections really are the low-hanging fruit; it doesn't take that much work to get people to be quasi-aware of what's happening and spend an hour voting once or twice a year. Referendums as well. And if you get enough people to show up (not even that many, especially in primaries), you get definite results. If you lose, you lose a bit of time. A strike, in contrast, takes a lot of time and is a much, much larger sacrifice for those involved. Even if you manage to get everyone on board, there's a good chance you won't have any success and will lose a great deal.

An app could be really useful for organizing, but one big obstacle would be getting people to use it. Though maybe there'd be an opportunity for that with 2016 coming up - if you (for instance) worked with Sanders supporters and had them use the app for organizing, it might give it the visibility it needed. Something similar happened with Dean supporters and Meetup in '04.

[marym625]

210. Not advocating not voting

That's never been part of what I personally am trying to express.

Look at the fast food workers. It's striking that has caused the minimum wage changes. Each and every time more workers joined, more press covered it..took dedication, organization and patience. But it has worked and I am sure they will continue to strike until every employee in their business is making a living wage.

The app would obviously be something that has to be done very well. It has to be easy to use, fun and informative in addition to useful. Don't know if I can pull it off but sure gonna try.

[Chathamization]

212. Yes, it's not either/or. I'm just saying I'd focus more on what I see as the low hanging fruit.

And I don't think striking for political change is that. You're right that striking can sometimes be a useful tool to get more from ones employer, but it's fairly situational, specific, and again, most successful when it's trying to get specific concessions from employers.

As for a political goal, I guess we could (and should) push for more people to join unions and give unions more support, and encourage people to keep strikes in mind as an option so that they have some leverage with their employer. Was that what you were thinking of? I think it's a worthwhile goal, especially since unions aren't just good at giving workers strength in a particular situation, but they also can be (and are) used as a political force on behalf of workers.

[marym625]

226. see my reply

#225. It's along this part of the thread.

I wish there was a way to tag a person or response number within a post. Or to reply to 2 at once.

[Chathamization]

275. It’s been a while since I’ve seen Eyes on the Prize, but you’re right, we should look at past and

current successes as we try to figure out future steps. To pick a single example - A. Phillip Randolph started off as a union organizer, and in ’41 he and others came up with the idea for the March on Washington. The idea of the march was part of a broader effort (including strikes and engaging politicians) to get specific policy changes, and even then there was compromise. The march itself wouldn’t happen for another 22 years.

I think too often people get excited about the strikes and marches while forgetting about the other 90% of the effort needed. There needs to be more of a discussion on what we’re trying to accomplish, how a particular action is supposed to bring that about, what resources would be needed, how we would measure success, how feasible success would be based on past events, etc. (in other words, more of the kind of discussion we’re having here)

[marym625]

278. I'm watching the entire series again

Unbelievable bravery!

You should check it out again. Worth it

[marions ghost]

220. Good point

the fast food workers are showing what coming together in nonviolent protest CAN accomplish

[marym625]

225. I watched Eye On The Prize

I watched Eye On The Prize yesterday for the first time in years. The dedication to the cause, the blind bravery of all the people that took place, just amazing. Absolutely amazing.

Taking a lesson from this movement from the recent past, as well as the union workers from a few decades prior, boycott/Strike and civil disobedience seem to be the way to go.

[marions ghost]

227. Civil disobedience IS the way to go

There's bravery in this kind of action too...

[marym625]

229. I remember this

There were quite a few flash mob type protests in Walmart around that time. That's a company that has a stranglehold on many areas.

There are enough people out there who want change. We just have to organize in a way that people aren't going to starve because they take a stand and have nowhere to go for work, for food, etc.

The community at large has to be involved

[marions ghost]

233. Absolutely

Community

[marym625]

234. I think it was Montgomery

That came together to help the Freedom Riders. They mortgaged their homes to bail out those that were arrested.

I think once community sees the dedication of others and the need for change, they will join in, if only as a background player.

[daredtowork]

87. I was so disappointed Occupy sputtered out

Revolution started, but stopped short of change: largely because local businesses were annoyed by disruption to normal trade and minor property damage that could have been handled by prosecuting the specific vandals.

Also in Oakland, the people with the bullhorns just kept trying to drag the protests down to the port - which confused the hell out of everybody and left the disabled people who couldn't march a mile behind. Instead we should have been supporting the people camping out and reclaiming "public" spaces.

[marym625]

131. I agree. That was a hopeful situtation

And still, no one has been prosecuted for bringing down the world economy. Absolutely unreal

[snooper2]

261. It got cold

[Louisiana1976]

96. What America needs is a socialist government. And unless we are lucky enough to find a

Democratic candidate who embodies socialist ideals and can win an election and have a Senate and House that cooperate with him or her the change will have to come about by means of a revolution. Preferably peaceful--but authorities used to acting like fascists might take a violent stand agaInst those working for change. WE need to get the money and corruption out of government and it will take a revolution to accomplish that.

[RKP5637]

115. Generally the democrats do not have the guts to stand up to the opposition! n/t

[marym625]

140. Wouldn't that be WONDERFUL

But, as you said, "it will take a revolution to accomplish that."

I ALMOST think that the only reason all the Dems voted for the Udall Amendment was they knew all the Republicans would vote against it.

[Avalux]

97. I like the word awakening. That has to happen first, on an individual level.

Then if it does, peaceful revolution to change the status quo is possible.

I hope that as we get further and further down the rabbit hole, light bulbs start going off for people who get up every day and live their lives but aren't particularly happy with how things are. It has to start within ourselves, and then it will spread like wildfire. That's the biggest fear of the ruling class you know. That the masses will figure out the game is rigged and stop playing.

[marym625]

132. Let's hope so

I will happily bring flashlights and pass them out inside the rabbit hole.

Now I have to reread Watership Down.

[kentuck]

120. I used to think so...

But I now believe that education is a better way.

Last night on Bill Maher's show, Alexandra Pelosi quoted a poll where 35% of the people polled did not know there was an election in November? Whether it is accurate or not, I don't know, but I am sure the number is quite large.

We need to seriously teach civics in class and let students know they have an important role to play in our democracy. Whether it benefits one Party or the other is irrelevant. We simply cannot afford such ignorance.

[marym625]

135. What a horrible percentage!

I tend to believe that the "dumbing down of America" was intentional. We used to be near the top in education. Now, frankly, I don't even want to know how low our current world rating is. So many high school kids today can't even name all 50 States.

There are so many good answers as to what we can and should do but we obviously can't or we would have by now.

I don't know what the answer is but I don't believe it is any longer within the system.

Thank you

[Chathamization]

209. Yes. I have to say that I'm thankful for "Parks and Recreation", since it's apparently the reference

point a lot of people have for local politics. Just today I was knocking on some doors for a candidate, and a mother was trying to explain what we were doing to her son. "Remember Parks and Recreation?" It's not the first time something like that has happened to me. And you're right, most people seem to have no idea what's going on, who's representing them, who's making which law, what parts of their life are influenced by national politics and what parts of their life are influenced by local politics, etc. There's a lot of ignorance, apathy, and learned helplessness to overcome.

I've even seen a lot of that here, with people referring to the individuals who won the most votes in the primaries as being hand picked by the establishment. There's an internalized fatalism we have to fight against.

[craigmatic]

126. There's more than one way to accomplish change.

We could just keep winning presidential elections for the next 2 decades and take the SCOTUS.

[marym625]

136. SCOTUS would certainly help

as would the White House. But look at what we haven't been able to do even with the White House.

Perhaps I am too cynical. However, it seems the more time goes by, the more the cards are stacked against us.

[craigmatic]

166. It only seems like that because the system isn't designed to work.

Power is divided between state and national government and among the three branches on the federal level. Plus the republicans don't want to do too much with the power of the federal government to help people. We've got it worse because we actually want to use the power for people. Don't get discouraged anything worth doing comes with struggle.

[marym625]

167. only semi discouraged

it comes and goes

Thank you

[awoke_in_2003]

129. I am beginning to think so...

the wealthy own politicians on both sides of the aisle. Our legislators only care about campaign funds and lucrative jobs after they leave office.

[marym625]

137. Yep

so very true and so very scary.

Thank you

[Enthusiast]

144. It would be a revolutionary act to remove money from elections.

It would be a revolutionary act to restore media fairness.

Basically we're fucked.

Until a huge majority of Americans recognize the dilemma we are in little can be done.

Essentially the corporations need to be slapped down and strictly limited in their participation in the election and legislation process.

The problem is, corporations already have control of legislators in both parties.

Corporations will continue to make laws that protect their exalted position.

And make no mistake, corporations are now in control.

How do you like it? Corporate control.

[marym625]

152. I don't like it at all!

The minute monopolies were allowed, we were screwed.

Damn we need another MLK, Wilberforce, Susan B Anthony or Malcolm X

[Enthusiast]

154. I agree.

[marions ghost]

222. This is a movement...

Leaders such as those in the past would help, but the people coming together on their own is a powerful statement.

---------------------
Over 100 Broadway stars, directors, producers, musicians, choreographers, designers and technicians gathered in front of the New York Police Department in Times Square to protest the death of Eric Garner by performing a powerful poem. Mr. Garner was killed on July 17, 2014, by NYPD officers who put him into a chokehold and ignored his repeated plea of “I can’t breathe.” A bystander videotaped the police, recording the excessive force that resulted in Mr. Garner’s death.

[marym625]

228. This HAS TO END!

That was very powerful. Thank you.

[treestar]

145. It is about convincing people

other theories are trying to get around that.

Convincing people the persons who spend the most money are not the only ones we should consider. That having a slick ad doesn't make a person a better representative.

By convincing people to a more liberal viewpoint, so they will vote for more liberal candidates. That's too hard for a lot of people.

Note they are saying if more liberal candidates had the money, they'd win. They find most voters to be so vacuous that they are controllable, and lamenting that money controls them, to the advantage of the rich. If only we could control them instead.

[marym625]

157. My uncle was a self made

multi millionaire. He was "friends" with some very powerful people. He never put up with their bullshit, like one of the Pritzkers telling him and my aunt, "Oh, you're Irish. We had a maid that is Irish. We had to fire her."

He used to say, "I have been rich enough to be a republican for decades but I have conscious.

He raised over $750,000,000 for St Jude's Hospital. Man, I miss him.

Anyway, I don't know that we can actually convince people who only pay attention to the shiny stuff, the talking points, of anything. I will say that the "troll attitude" in dealing with people won't help. Belittling does nothing but make people dig their heels in deeper. "Convince a man against his will, he'll be of the same opinion still"

[marym625]

159. Very relevant post currently trending

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025591895

[20score]

160. Yes, but not a political or economic revolution. Although those things, along with others

would obviously need to be incorporated into this revolution. Most people think far too narrowly to solve long term problems.

There is a great need to solve short term problems like inequality (racial, gender, economic), wars for profit, evaporation of privacy, lack of health care, environmental degradation, money in politics, an embarrassing news media and the militarization of the police, etc. But those are symptoms of the disease and we should concentrate on a real cure.

A second Enlightenment is required. A revolution in the way we think. That of course would take a deep cultural shift; where knowledge and the ability to face reality without the blinders of ideology is praised, and where apathy is scorned.

Science and reality would have to have to take center stage in this shift. Partisan politics, fanatical religions, ideologies that ignore reality would be marginalized. Facing truths head on such as overpopulation and global warming; building an economic and political system that both respects and balances the individual's rights, and brings us together as a society caring for all is the only way to build a world that will be better in a hundred years, than it is today.

[marym625]

162. Very well said

How? How do we do this?

And thank you for your well thought out response!!

[Silent3]

161. Any old change, or change for the better?

If any sort of "revolution" happened now, it would be a bloody mess not of the 99% vs. the 1% as I'm sure you'd love to imagine, but something involving right wing lunatics with plenty of guns and Dominionist aspirations as one of the biggest factions, and a low probability of an outcome good enough to be worth the price, and maybe with an outcome far worse than we have it now.

[marym625]

164. I assumed "for the better" was a given

You're not the first to say that on this post. I believe there is truth to it. But I also believe, if well thought out and planned ahead of time, that would not be the case.

There are some changes needed we all agree on. Education, jobs, well, that's all I can think of right now. But it's a start

[marions ghost]

224. Think of the word "revolution"

as meaning any radical change from the status quo.

It does not need to include violent means.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

170. Do you know what's scary?

If you asked this question at Free Republic you would get the same responses but in a opposite direction.

Save your "they would leave to their mother's basements" jokes. Tim McVeigh was very much for real.

[marym625]

176. In the opposite direction?

Not sure what you mean. I assume you don't mean voting for and against would be reversed.

Wasn't going to make any jokes. Too serious and I agree

[DemocratSinceBirth]

178. Them and their ilk would be running things instead of us./NT

[marym625]

181. Ah! Thank you

Yeah, that's a scary thought

[NightWatcher]

179. My vote is for General Strikes and Online Petitions to the Whitehouse

Nothing is getting changed. Those in charge are fans of stability and the status quo.

[marym625]

182. General strikes

I agree with but the white house petitions seem to do nothing. I really like the strikes idea

Thank you.

[mahina]

183. It's an 'and' thing.

Move change forward one election at a time, hold on to campaign finance reform as a core idea, while other change emerges.

Unfortunately though you aren't talking about blood in the streets, the nature of revolution is that the outcome is unknown. Look at Egypt. Much much worse now, according to Ann Wright, than it was before the revolution. And plenty of blood ran in the streets.

A Force More Powerful documents nonviolent revolutions in Chile, Poland, South Africa, Denmark…mostly. It can happen. There are lots of great resources at the Albert Einstein Institution in NYC, available for free download, including 198 methods of nonviolent resistance, The Anti-Coup, and other great writings by Gene Sharp and other peace workers. If you download, consider giving them even a small donation. Please share this incredible resource and their work, if this subject interests you.

[marym625]

184. It very much does

And I have read a little. Not a great deal.

I am by no means saying I have a plan. I do believe, however, we have taken the one election at a time approach and things just keep getting worse. We know presidential elections have been stolen. Who knows how many Lowe level elections have been?

I like the strike idea. Forget who said it but it's on the thread. In fact, if we combine that with some other ideas on this thread, like 20Score and some others,have this fabulous app with the ideas of TheWorldOwl, we have a really good place to start.

Thank you for your input and information!

[mahina]

185. A Force More Powerful on youtube is in many languages

https://www.youtube.com/user/AFMPFilms/videos

[marym625]

189. Thank you

I will try to watch it tonight!

[mahina]

191. Those are just little clips.

If I can find the whole thing on youtube in English, I will add here. I see it in other languages.

I'd like to give a copy to every school library in America.

Aloha marym

[mahina]

186. Danes withdraw obedience from the Nazis, topple Nazi occupation with (mostly) nonviolence

&list=UUJ1vZnfex0cM-2vSge7rhig

[mahina]

187. Ghandi boots the British with nonviolence

&list=UUJ1vZnfex0cM-2vSge7rhig&index=32

[mahina]

188. A Force More Powerful and Albert Einstein Institution links

http://www.aforcemorepowerful.org

http://www.aeinstein.org Advancing Freedom Through Nonviolent Action

[marym625]

192. Thank you so much!

TThe are great. This is a great source, YouTube, and I don't use it enough for this type of reference material. Hell, I just barely started using it for music (it's hell getting old! )

[mahina]

193. ;) Never surrender…never, never, never, never.

[marym625]

195. mahalo, mahina! and I won't ever :)

[mahina]

190. Free downloads at the Albert Einstein Institution include "From Dictatorship to Democracy",

How Nonviolent Struggle Works, There Are Realistic Alternatives.

http://www.aeinstein.org/english/

For peace! Imua! (onward, roughly)

[marym625]

194. Síochána!

Gaelic for peace

Thank you very much

[marym625]

196. 195 comments and 0 snark!

I absolutely love it!

[Maedhros]

197. The powers-that-be are doing their damnedest to take away all the alternatives.

Average citizens have no influence on matters of State. Voting districts are gerrymandered and voters are suppressed. Citizens United made sure that our voices are quelled by money.

[marym625]

198. ain't that the truth!

Now we have to figure it out to fix it

Thank you!

[eShirl]

200. revolutions usually make things worse

[marym625]

201. You're not the first to say that

But what are we supposed to do? Obviously, what we've been doing isn't working. So we're supposed to just hope for the best? Did that too. It didn't work either.

Thanks for your thoughts!

[whatchamacallit]

205. GOTR!

GOTV GOTR!

[marym625]

207. Sorry

I don't know what that means

[whatchamacallit]

214. Get Out The Revolution

[marym625]

215. OH!!

DERP!

GOTR!

[BlindTiresias]

206. Evolutionary change doesn't exist.

The examples of real meaningful change for the population being generated by upheaval or outright rejection of systems vastly outnumbers incrementalist, evolutionary change to the point where the latter is almost imperceptible. Furthermore, when incremental change is successfully enacted it actually leads to worse long term outcomes as the system self-preserves and become outmoded by more dynamic systems.

[marym625]

221. You are not the only one that has pointed that out

So what do you suggest?

Looking at the situation realistically, it seems that by the time the majority of the people realize what is going on and have no real control over anything, it will be too late.

DemocratSinceBirth has a poll up as well. http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025594689 Another very interesting thread with some very interesting discussion. If you look at #39, woo_me_with_science, a far better and more organized mind than mine, points to some very real problems and horrible realities. Whether or not you agree with him there is truth there.

So what do we do? I don't mean to pick on you. I don't expect a detailed plan. You just happen to be the last reply I saw (missed it somehow earlier.)

[BlindTiresias]

267. The window on that already closed

There was some hope of a systemic change for the better with socialism but it was rejected and the west in general is looking at a bleak existence for most of the population for the foreseeable future.

There is some equivalent to the Roman populares, who were technically correct in the measures needed to ensure long term Roman success but who were frustrated at every turn by the Senate and Optimates. By the time the populares could even enact half of what was necessary it was already too late, the decay had set in and it was just a matter of time before Rome would dissolve. What would replace the familiar ideology of the populares was totally alien to the Romans and yet much more effective in providing for the general welfare: Christianity and Germanic culture. Consider for a moment what a Roman would think in 30 B.C. regarding what would be their future and our historical reality.

[marym625]

270. Well said.

Sigh.

So frustrated

[BlueJazz]

211. There will not be any revolution. If the present crop of Americans lived during...

....Paul Revere's time, we'd be British Subjects.

[marym625]

213. man that's just a scary thought

I hope you're wrong. Don't disagree though

[marions ghost]

230. I think you're wrong about that....

Recent Les Miserables flash mobs:

Do You Hear The People Sing?

[BlueJazz]

237. There are many things I would love to be wrong about.

[marions ghost]

241. Be the change

More faith in the people currently alive--rather than nostalgia for efforts in a vastly different era--is what is needed.

(I have a few Aussie-Americans in my family...)

no worries

[AgingAmerican]

216. No

Just get rid of the electoral college and its Dem/GOP stranglehold on the states.

[marym625]

232. You and others

Have said similar things. That this or that needs to be gotten rid of. But how do we do that within the current system?

[AgingAmerican]

262. We do it in the current system

...by getting rid of the electoral college. It's the only way to break out of the left vs right paradigm. By making every vote count and getting rid of the red state, blue state nonsense. Only then will viable alternatives emerge.

[marym625]

264. Sorry, I wasn't clear

I mean how do we do what you propose in the current system? People have been trying to get rid of the electoral college for years. After the 2000 election especially. To fight from within will take more money than we have. Even collectively.

[AgingAmerican]

266. Something really, really

...bad has to happen. Like absolute financial collapse (which will happen here in a few years), or climate change makes large swaths of the USA unable to sustain the population any longer. Anything short of that and the idiotic, endless loop, left right paradigm we are now stuck in remains.

[marym625]

269. That's exactly what I am afraid of

and also believe will happen

[Chathamization]

268. We’re already 60% of the way there, with 13% coming up.

The effort has been going well so far. It’s a good example of how we can succeed if we do things smartly and organize.

[B Calm]

231. People need to wake up and vote for democrats!

[Go Vols]

238. Its a code hack

that wont work here.

I alerted.

[marym625]

242. Thank goodness for techy people

Like you!

Thank you!

[Go Vols]

244. np

[B Calm]

239. No link showing on my tablet. .

[riqster]

247. Scuba's definition is a good one, but it would not be a revolution.

I'd say rather that it would be the mass usage of our rights and responsibilities as already granted under the existing constitution.

That might be a revolution of attitude, of engagement, or one of such; but it would not be a revolution of the classic sort in which the existing government is overthrown and a new one put in its place.

[marym625]

248. I don't think we've gotten that far

that we need to overthrow anything. But changes need to be made and I don't think all of them can be from within the system. Some civil disobedience would have to be done. IMHO anyway

[riqster]

253. Oh, sure. We need that to keep our rights from being further infringed.

[randome]

251. When Climate Change can no longer be ignored, I think the populace will remember...

...those who warned them and those who dismissed it.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]

[marym625]

252. What is so amazing

is we are already at that point and still big oil has people convinced that it's god.

I knew god loves America and the Bears more than other countries and other football teams. I didn't know he loves big oil more than renewables.

[NCTraveler]

255. Heading to Starbucks. Will ponder it over my $6 coffee. nt.

[marym625]

258. Oh go for broke!

Get a scone too!

[stevenleser]

257. A revolution would institute a 100% Libertarian oligarchy. If that's what you want, have at it.

The military is more sympathetic to the right wing and as far as civilians, the right wing are the ones who are armed. Their viewpoints would win out in a revolution as a result.

This talk of revolution by folks on the political left reminds me of Gone with the Wind where all the "Southern Gentlemen" at the party are gloriously championing war against the north and Rhett Butler spoils the mood by reminding them that all the factories and weapons production is in the north and thus the south has no chance at all.

The left would have no chance at all in a revolution here in the US.

[marions ghost]

259. Can you imagine

a revolution without the use of weapons.

[stevenleser]

260. Not here. Not with the stand your ground crowd. They would shoot us for fun. nt

[marions ghost]

273. I don't ally with anyone

who would advocate violence and send their armies of 9-year old girls out to shoot us...

We who are not armed must use more technical, more clever means. But resist we must.

My point is that big changes can occur without violence --if enough people are on board with it.

Too often people hear the word "revolution" and think it only means taking up physical weapons. This is a narrow interpretation of the word. And indicates the lack of a better strategy.

We have thinkers and people with vision, rather than clowns with guns, on our side. We need our side to come forth and take a stand in any way that makes sense (and does not incite violence).

Violence never wins in the end...Gandhi is inspiring on that point, even though today our methods are different and more involved with technology, the principles remain the same...

------------
Gandhi

Non-violence has great appeal because it removes the illogicality of trying to make the world a less violent and more just place by using violence as a tool.

Among the techniques of non-violent protest are:

peaceful demonstrations
sit-ins
picketing
holding vigils
fasting and hunger strikes
strikes
blockades
civil disobedience

Gandhi

One of the most famous leaders of a non-violent movement was Mohandas K. Gandhi (1869-1948), who opposed British imperial rule in India during the 20th century.

Gandhi took the religious principle of ahimsa (doing no harm) common to Buddhism, Hinduism and Jainism and turned it into a non-violent tool for mass action. He used it to fight not only colonial rule but social evils such as racial discrimination and untouchability as well.

Gandhi called it "satyagraha" which means 'truth force.' In this doctrine the aim of any non-violent conflict was to convert the opponent; to win over his mind and his heart and pursuade him to your point of view.

Gandhi was firm that satyagraha was not a weapon of the weak - "Satyagraha is a weapon of the strong; it admits of no violence under any circumstance whatever; and it always insists upon truth."

Gandhi did not think that non-violence was a tool for those who were too scared to take up arms (an accusation that was sometimes made):

http://www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/war/against/nonviolence.shtml

[marym625]

265. They had all the weapons

When unions organized too.

As I have said repeatedly, I don't know what the answer is. I do know that to just continue as we have been will have the same outcome in your scenario. Or worse.

I like the idea of strike and civil disobedience along with boycott.

[GliderGuider]

277. Revolutions never result in the kinds of changes that are actually needed.

By "changes that are actually needed" I mean things like: lower world population numbers, less global economic activity, no CO2 emissions, less deforestation and desertification, less water use and pollution, less ocean acidification...

Revolutions leave the human-built social structure, with all its underlying growth imperatives, intact. A revolution may temporarily cause growth to slow, or to occur more humanely in one region or an other, but it doesn't fix the problem. It can't because the big problem lies in our evolved nature as clever, but un-wise, social creatures.

If we don't fix what we're doing to the biosphere, the rest is just fancy embroidery on our body-bags. Unfortunately I see no way that a revolution, violent or not, can fix what we're doing to the planet.

[marym625]

279. You sound like my brother

I had to check to see if he joined.

That's a GREAT THING!

[GliderGuider]

280. Sounds like you have a very thoughtful brother.

[marym625]

281. It's definitely a compliment

He's incredibly kind, thoughtful and intelligent. Not as intelligent as his sister but you can't have everything (he's my brother. I'm required to be competitive)

[GliderGuider]

282. I have sisters, I know how that goes!

[marym625]

283. LOL!

And then

[GliderGuider]

284. Yep, like that!