LePage, "Her (Hickox) behavor is really riling people up and I can only do what I can do."

[yellowcanine]

Hmm. Is he being advised by Karl "Wilson's wife is fair game" Rove?
Who is riling people up, Governor, Hickox or you?

http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/31/health/us-ebola/index.html

[MADem]

1. Well, the court ruled in her favor, so he's shit outta luck! nt

[Louisiana1976]

2. Yes--the Gov has been riling people up, but it didn't work.

[HereSince1628]

16. I'm glad for the result

I think the show of civil disobedience was unnecessary

but the quaratine policy she was under was bad policy.

In general, courts and bureaucrats, operate to minimize the burden/costs/harm of any policy or enforcement of policy.

Forcing isolation on a person when the isolation provides no value at all to the community was very poor policy.

The place I think I differ from many DUers is that I think good/most public health orders really do provide value to the community that exceed the burdens/costs/harm done to the targets of the orders.

Which is to say that the concept of quarantines needs to be in the quiver of approaches to protecting community health; quarantines aren't inherently bad--but they must clearly offer protective value.

[upaloopa]

26. If we give in to irrational fear our policies

will not be founded on science but mob rule.
We already have the media spreading fear and false information for ratings purposes. We need to combat that.

[HereSince1628]

41. I see the need for quarantines and serious respect for health hazards

Quarantine, and restriction of movement, isn't inherently bad.

It's a very serious imposition on people, that must be judged as appropriate or not on the value that quarantine could reasonably return.

In the absence of infection, or even the absence of any reasonable presumption of infectiousness it's simply valueless restriction of movement.

Public Health officials do have to respond construct policy that deals with sometimes fearful concern. That policy usually must involve consequences of implementing the policy that are well outside of science.

[upaloopa]

44. Public policy should demonstrate leadership

not give into fear and hysteria. We are fools to throw out the knowledge and science we know for the support of the ignorant masses.

[HereSince1628]

52. Fear of not getting American medical personnel into the epidemic

is what's putting pressure on policy to NOT put in place travel bans as has Canada

You can call it concern or something else, but it's giving in to perception of what a travel ban would mean.

That isn't about any science. That's about the need to create opportunities to get medics into the epidemic area.

[KingCharlemagne]

3. Full quote of LePage's comments:

Right now, she can come out of the house if she wants, but we can't protect her when she does that. The reason there's a police car there when she does that is to protect her more than anybody. 'Cause the last thing I want is for her to get hurt," he said. "But at the same token, her behavior is really riling a lot of people up, and I can only do what I can do. And we're trying to protect her, but she's not acting as smart as she probably should. (Emhasis added)

This dog-whistle to stochastic terrorists is simply outrageous! Right now, Hickox' house needs to be swarmed by Dems and a protective cordon established by non-law enforcement citizens. If the state cannot guarantee her safety, then the state has lost legitimacy and must be replaced.

Thanks for posting. This should get front-page above-the-fold play here, imo.

[gratuitous]

7. Yeah, the dog-whistle is right there, isn't it?

Watching the news this morning featuring this nontroversy, they had a lot of footage of Hickox on her bike. I commute by bike and turned to the spousal unit and exclaimed, "Oh no! I bike, too! I'll get the ebola fer sure."

There's also LePage's veiled threat, "she's not acting as smart as she probably should." I'm sure it's not coincidence if you hear echoes of, "Nice little restaurant ya got here. Be a shame if anything happened to it. You seem like a smart guy - shouldn't you buy some insurance?"

[City Lights]

4. Maybe LePage should educate those that are "riled up."

What a putz.

[malaise]

5. Guess the judge riled him up more

Fugg that tea party ReTHUG scumbag[/url]

[KMOD]

6. If I lived in Maine Í'd be riled up to vote him out.

[MADem]

50. He is a real idiot--I mean a REAL idiot. nt

[branford]

8. Whether you like it or not, about 80%+ of the American people support

the quarantine of returning aid workers. LePage, Christie, Cuomo, Quinn, Malloy, Brown, and the other governors, both Democratic and Republican, are following the lead of the vast majority of their constituents. The fears of these voters may be unjustified, but they're voters nevertheless. Even Obama has now expressed his desire for Hickox to follow Maine's voluntary quarantine.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/30/white-house-kaci-hickox-nurse-ebola-quarantine

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2014/10/29/poll-80-percent-want-ebola-quarantines/

http://observer.com/2014/10/cuomo-touts-poll-showing-support-for-ebola-quarantine/

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/10/maine-ebola-kaci-hickox-paul-lepage

[KingCharlemagne]

15. With all due respect to President Obama and the Democratic governors, 80% of Americans

are scientifically illiterate. To repeat: Hickox may be infected (although tests have thus far come back negative) but is not contagious until she has symptoms (which she does not currently have). So what? We're now quarantining people who are not sick and cannot infect anyone because they MIGHT get sick at some indeterminate point in the future? What purpose does such utter anti-science nonsense serve but the interests of the nabobs and yahoos among us?

BTW, 70% of Americans believe that angels actually exist.

[branford]

19. I was replying the post about LePage purportedly riling people up.

First, I do not support the quarantines. You have no need to convince me.

However, the American people were riled up well before Governor LePage uttered a sound. The fear about Ebola, justified or not, has been strong and pervasive since Duncan was first diagnosed then died in Texas. This fear is very bipartisan, and unsurprisingly, our elected representatives from both parties will react.

And, also with all due respect, do you think that when our Party asks voters to choose our candidates next Tuesday, that part of our message should be to remind them that they're "nabobs" and "yahoos" who should essentially shut-up? If you believe such casual dismissal of peoples' fears, no less direct insults, is a good electoral strategy, I think you should be ready to welcome Mitch McConnell as the new Senate Majority Leader.

[KingCharlemagne]

22. Glad to hear you do not support the quarantines. They're frankly an outrage to

anyone with more than two functioning brain cells and a rudimentary science education.

Governor LePage is riling up (or, better, 'winding up') potential stochastic terrorists. Think about Palin's bullseye and the Arizona shooter of Rep. Giffords. Highly, highly irresponsible language. His language should have been words to this effect:

"Every resource of the state will be expended to safeguarding Ms. Hickox' rights as an American and as a citizen of New Hampshire"

Instead, we get this tripe about how Ms. Hickox is not being "smart".

I never believe in telling anyone with fears or grievances to 'shut up'. In fact, most fears and grievances usually have some origin in reality. But Democratic Party leaders have an obligation to state forthrightly that quarantines of asymptomatic people are not effective in preventing the spread of Ebola and can actually be counter-productive to encouraging medical professionals to provide care to Ebola patients.

[branford]

27. President Obama can read the polls, and that's he why he has backed-off

his support of Hickox, and encouraged her to obey the "voluntary" quarantine, just as have the vast majority of other returned health care workers. Democracy is ugly, and we have a tough election in a few days. Some discretion in required.

My primary point is that trying making this issue partisan and accusing LePage of some unique ignorance is simply contrary to the evidence. By arguing that LePage is foolish (which he generally is), you implicitly insult and alienate the majority of voting independents and fellow Democrats who agree with him. That is a very dangerous game.

If you want to change the hearts and minds of the American public, it will require far more sensitivity, diplomacy and understanding, and a whole heck of a lot less self-righteousness of the kind displayed by many here on DU.

[upaloopa]

30. So what 80%?of the people are wrong

[branford]

32. As noted before, I disagree with the majority and oppose the state quarantines.

Nevertheless, the Ebola fears and support for quarantines have existed since Duncan was diagnosed in Texas, and is very bipartisan.

LePage is certainly not the cause of the fears. He, like many other governors from both parties, are simply expressing and following the will of their constituents. When disparaging the sentiments of LePage, many are insulting and alienating the vast majority of other (voting) Americans. A little more diplomacy and sensitivity is, at the very least, politically advisable.

[tazkcmo]

34. Fuck the American People

that are too lazy to break away from unreality TV and Facebook to educate themselves on a multitude of issues. I am sick and tired of the idiocy sweeping this country. I've often said that the quickest way to raise our collective IQ is to remove all the warning labels off of dangerous household cleaning products.

[branford]

40. Do you advocate "Fuck the American People" as the new Democratic rallying cry?

It's this exact arrogance why so many voters will not vote for Democrats, even though it may be in their economic or social interests.

[tazkcmo]

47. Tough toenails. n/t

[Manifestor_of_Light]

9. These Republicans think they are doctors.

And even when they are doctors, they seem to know nothing about womens' reproductive anatomy or physiology.
Rand Paul refuses to join the national licensing agency for ophthalmologists and has started his own organization for "certifying" them as competent to practice medicine.

Like Bill Frist the heart surgeon diagnosing Terri Schiavo's brain damage via edited videotape.

[branford]

10. It's not just Republicans.

As I indicate in my earlier post, 80%+ of Americans support the state quarantines, with vast majorities of both Democrats and Republicans. The governors who've instituted the quarantines also include Democrats hailing from deep blue states like NY, CA, IL, NH and CT. The fact that President Obama has carefully backed-off on his support for Hickox truly speaks volumes.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

12. Does anyone know what the right protocol is?

I hear bits and pieces that they don't need 21 day quarantine, don't need strict quarantine, and so forth, but have heard no factual information from REAL doctors (like Dr. Fauci) on the news.

As they say on FARK.com, EVERYBODY PANIC.

[branford]

17. I believe the recommended protocol is "active monitoring."

It is my understanding that this includes taking one's temperature every day, avoiding public or crowded places, and immediately notifying the authorities in the event of symptoms.

[etherealtruth]

42. Try this ink from the cdc

http://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2014/fs1027-monitoring-symptoms-controlling-movement.html

It identifies levels of risk and monitoring recommendations (dated 10/20/14)

[etherealtruth]

13. This is about science NOT politics

The US populace is riled up because of fear mongering and the perpetuation of ignorance

[NutmegYankee]

18. Exactly.

What we need is some tough talk to the scared. They need to get over their fear.

[branford]

20. The first thing President Obama should do is set an example by

cancelling the military quarantine as contrary to the accepted science concerning the risk of asymptomatic individuals.

[NutmegYankee]

21. He could, but he probably won't to avoid stepping on an Officer's toes.

Unlike the civilian world, the military usually has free reign to manage this how they choose.

[branford]

24. Obama is the Commander-In-Chief, and he wants us to oppose quarantines

as unnecessary based on the medical science. If the officers' are acting on unsubstantiated fears, Obama should ignore or countermand the military quarantine. The officers will obey the president, just as the troops will obey their commanders.

Just because the military has more legal discretion to institute restrictions on the troops, it in no way makes such restrictions scientifically correct or morally acceptable.

If Obama wants governors and the American people to base their decisions only on accepted science, he absolutely must set an example. Doing so with the troops, a very sympathetic section of our society, would be a very nice start.

[NutmegYankee]

25. I understand that.

It's just not how the the CIC and the military usually interact. I work in military culture. It just is the way it is.

[branford]

31. If Obama wants the American people to act bravely and scientifically, he needs to do the same.

I'm fully aware that military culture involves a great deal of political inertia, but Obama is the C-I-C, and his orders will be followed. That is precisely why removing the troop quarantine would have such obvious political significance.

[seabeyond]

38. bullshit. two different thing between miitary and u.s. citizens.... nt

[branford]

43. The science is the exact same, the politics, however, are very different.

Asymptomatic soldiers are no more or less a risk to the public than asymptomatic civilian aid workers. In fact, since we've been told that, unlike the aid workers, the troops were never exposed to Ebola patients, the troops are actually at a much lower risk of infection.

One of the reasons that Obama has opposed the state quarantines is that many fear aid workers will not travel to Africa if they face restrictions when they return. The soldiers, on the other hand, can be ordered to go without need for incentives. However, the president publicly insists that medical science must prevail in making quarantine decisions, and this rationale is purely political. The recruitment difficulties of NGO's have absolutely no affect on the infectiousness or contagion risk of individuals serving in west Africa. Similarly, the legal ability to restrict troops does not remotely imply such orders are based upon scientific fact.

If the president want to set an example that fear and politics should not trump science, the troops should immediately be released from quarantine under the same easy and simple self-monitoring rules as recommended for everyone else. Anything less is hypocrisy and implicitly justifies the political actions of the governors' state quarantines.

[seabeyond]

48. The issue isn't science on this one. Military does this? Their choice. Science matters

Implementing on ordinary citizens. Since you have been here you have consistent gone after prez on stuff like this. The only ones playing this game are the pro isolate.

[branford]

49. I oppose the quarantines of both the civilians and the troops.

The president and many here on DU are quite properly demanding that all quarantine decisions be based upon medical facts. I couldn't agree more. However, for some reason, the president's approval of the military quarantine is somehow an exception, despite the lack of any actual science differentiating the risk allegedly posed by the soldiers versus the civilians. There's no doubt that the president has much greater authority to restrict the troops than civilians, but that does not make it right, scientifically or morally. I will not blindly defend the president if he is being a hypocrite, particularly since it ultimately weakens the argument against the quarantine of the returning aid workers and justifies the public's unfounded fears.

If you want to concede that fear and politics may sometimes be an appropriate factor in determining when a quarantine is warranted, you may certainly do so. However, do not be surprised or shocked when others, such as governors of both parties and the vast majority of the American people, also use such unscientific rationales for quarantines under conditions and circumstances that you (and I) disapprove.

[seabeyond]

51. For some reason. You ignore the reason. I do not need a person one week in doing the some reason

Or some one said.... Bullshit waste of time argument. Use it on someone else

[HereSince1628]

23. I don't think it's about science. Dems probably don't -really- want all arguments science based.

The quarantine policy fails on grounds of least burden/cost. It's extreme position provides no value that isn't provided by lesser restrictions. Overall it's a policy which can't achieve a validating added value that balances the serious burden on a class of individuals.


Dems, especially pro-choice Dems, don't want science messing with the meanings of words used in their arguments. Pro-choice folks are very much in favor of declaring that a fetus isn't a person or a human.

Human is the common name for Homo sapiens. In utero or not, a diploid reproductive product of Homo sapiens is by all biological standards also Homo sapiens and by common name, human.

But the emotion that surrounds abortion is played down by speaking about a stage in development as if it is something other than human. And that is a very important feature of arguing against pro-life positions--declaring a zygote, a blastocyst, an embryo or a fetus as non-human is a common approach.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

35. And those are the scientific terms in the last sentence.

Zygote, blastocyst, embryo and fetus are made of human DNA in utero, but are not fully human until viability. Yeah they have 46 chromosomes if normal and but are not fully human. They are potential.

It's like any other mammalian fertilized egg until birth. People with biology degrees (like me) know that all mammalian reproduction is basically the same. The anti-choicers want the earlier stages identified as truly human when they are not viable.

God is the biggest abortionist out there, and a pretty high percentage of fertilized eggs fail to implant in the endometrium, or in some way or other are expelled as part of a late period, for various reasons.

I don't understand the statement that "pro-choice Dems don't want science messing with the meanings of words used in their arguments." "Human" is a lot more general than the more specific terms.

[HereSince1628]

39. As I said...you don't want science to be the arbiter, it's rather better to speak of personhood

within/under the law. Such definitions are well outside of science.

Human -is- the common name accepted by science for the species Homo sapiens, just like Mallard is the common name of Anas platyrhynchos.

Consequently to say an individual during development is not Homo sapiens and human makes no biological scientific sense. Species identify isn't a characteristic that gets assigned at birth. It is as strange as saying that 5th Graders aren't Human and Homo sapiens.

The important thing for zygotes and 5th graders is that they have different legal rights than Homo sapiens at different stages of development. Those legal rights aren't scientific at all.

And Choice is a clear circumstance where scientific consideration is unwanted in the argument.

[uppityperson]

11. "Her" behavior? eom

[Raine1967]

14. YOu know, I know that maybe I am being over sensitive, but this *she* thing has been bothering me.

In some respects, actually in many, it just looks like conservatives are really just trying to protect the little lady. It's for her own good.

Republicans: They always know what is best for women, right???

[Warpy]

28. Oh, SHUT UP, Le Putz

Just SHUT UP.

You tried to grandstand. You ran into a judge who can read and you lost.

Now just shut the fuck up about it. You've done enough damage to Hickox.

[randys1]

29. That was my thought the instant I heard it, he wants someone to harm her

[KamaAina]

33. Michaud needs to hook up with her TODAY

[Brigid]

36. God forbid he admit that he was just plain wrong.

[seabeyond]

37. what a piece of shit. let me say to you all... being pissed at this woman seems to be the thing.

meh. what is a leader like me to do????

[FLPanhandle]

45. Lots of DU'ers are in the same camp as LePage

People here on DU scared and without any understanding of science.

All should be ashamed of themselves right now.

[riderinthestorm]

46. + 1000. All the threads with the initial release of the decision dropped like a stone

NONE of the fearmongers have weighed in.

Very quiet...