Public Service Announcement: There no longer are "DLCers"

[Algernon Moncrieff]

The Democratic Leadership Council (DLC) was a non-profit 501(c)(4) corporation[1] founded in 1985 that, upon its formation, argued the United States Democratic Party should shift away from the leftward turn it took in the late 1960s, 1970s, and 1980s. The DLC hailed President Bill Clinton as proof of the viability of Third Way politicians and as a DLC success story.

The DLC's affiliated think tank is the Progressive Policy Institute. Democrats who adhere to the DLC's philosophy often call themselves New Democrats. This term is also used by other groups who have similar views on where the party should go in the future, like NDN[2] and Third Way.[3]

On February 7, 2011, Politico reported that the DLC would dissolve, and would do so as early as the following week.[4] On July 5 of that year, DLC founder Al From announced in a statement on the organization's website that the historical records of the DLC have been purchased by the Clinton Foundation.[5] The DLC's last chairman was former Representative Harold Ford of Tennessee, and its vice chair was Senator Thomas R. Carper of Delaware. Its CEO was Bruce Reed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Leadership_Council

The DLC is no more. There may be conservadems, third-wayers, DINO's, or whatever the heck else you choose to call them. However, there are no more DLCers.

[Recursion]

1. And Diebold doesn't own any voting machines anymore

But the word becomes a meme and takes on a life of its own.

[bravenak]

2. Those people didn't all die just because they dissolved the DLC.

Last edited Sat Nov 8, 2014, 04:43 PM - Edit history (1)

They just changed their names.

People up here call the Tesoro stations 'Mapco' all the time. Mapco has been gone for twenty years, it was replaced by 'Williams' and then Tesoro. Same locations, same products, same everything (except Blimpies). So, they call it mapco.

Same thing with the DLC. They disolved, and now we have blue dogs, dino's and third wayers. Same thing. Just like with Mapco.

[Algernon Moncrieff]

16. OK - but at some point, someone says "Mapco" and someone else stares blankly

Someone needs to just start calling them Tesoro stations. That's all I'm saying.

[bravenak]

21. Everybody just starts giving directions to Mapco.

Cause it's Tesoro. Even the kids who weren't alive for Mapco know that it's the same thing as Tesoro. It will be something else one day. So will third way. But people will call THAT the DLC. Same folks.

[merrily]

53. Only the pitifully uninformed. And God made google for them.

[Wounded Bear]

3. If it quacks like a duck...

Just sayin'

[hobbit709]

7. Quacks like a duck, waddles like a duck, swims like a duck and has feathers like a duck

So it's either a duck or a closely related waterfowl.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

9. Except that if ducks are extinct, it's clearly not actually a duck. N.T.

[hobbit709]

10. Closely related waterfowl.

[villager]

12. Except there's been no "extinction" whatsoever. Just a re-naming of the species. N.T.

[Algernon Moncrieff]

17. So call it by it's currrent, correct name.

Whatever that happens to be.

The DLC is dead, gone, kaput.....

[TheKentuckian]

31. Blackwater is fucking Blackwater no matter how they squirm from their defiled brand.

Last edited Mon Nov 10, 2014, 08:05 PM - Edit history (1)

So is it with the Koch whore DLC trying to keep one step ahead of the truth of who and what they are.

[merrily]

55. +1 The DLC stench is not going to disappear because Hillary wants it to.

[merrily]

54. No, you're wrong. If you co-founded the DLC, you are a DLCer. Nothing changes that.

[AtomicKitten]

4. Moot point. DLC AKA New Democrats, Third Way, Blue Dogs

[Cooley Hurd]

5. ...and the purpose of your post is?

[Algernon Moncrieff]

20. To let the dozen or so posters accusing DLCers of destroying the party to know the DLC is gone

It's kind of like complaining about how Nash and Studebaker are dragging down the American auto industry.

[JHB]

30. Bad analogy. The people who ran Nash or Sudebaker did not simply swap out the names...

...for a new brand that was pretty much the same, or even focused on reinforcing the worst aspects of their previous brand.

I'll agree that some people need to update their terminology, but if you're implying that the older term is meaningless because it's a bit dated, you are mistaken.

[merrily]

56. Nope. If the DLC destroyed the party, it destroyed the party.

Dissolving the corporation after the fact does not alter history.

Just like if Bobby kills Jerry and Bobby gets the death penalty, Jerry is still dead and Bobby is still the one responsible for killing Jerry.

BTW, I doubt the technical dissolution of the DLC think tank is news to any DUer. It's philosophy lives one and took over the party. It lives in other think tanks-- Third Way, Center for American Progress, the Progressive Policy Institute and No Labels--to name just a few. And the adherents of its philosophy are know variously as New Democrats and Democratic politicians who choose not to use the name New Democrats but share a philosophy with New Democrats.

[markpkessinger]

87. Whatever name by which they might be called . . .

. . . we are talking about essentially the same folks, and virtually everybody here knows that. It's not like a DU posting is an SEC filing requiring the correct legal name of an organization.

[Rex]

6. That's okay, I just discovered some DUers don't know the difference between liberalism

and neo-liberalism. Thanks for the information now maybe they will stop pretending there is a DLC.

[bravenak]

13. I saw that.

[Rex]

14. You would think the distinction would be important enough to learn.

Don't get me wrong, if people want to support economic liberalism - then of course that is their right, they should also know or at least learn that is the reason we as a country are in such dire financial distress right now.

[bravenak]

15. I feel sad when they don't know.

I never went to more than one semester of college but, I can read pretty well. I googled neoliberal one day for fun. Maybe what's fun to me is not really fun. This loss has been interesting and predictable. Progressive policies won. Many weak progressives lost. My take? Need to run better progressives instead of blaming voters for not liking the candidates we gave them.

[merrily]

57. The DLC philosophy lives on, even though the corporation technically dissolved and

donated its papers to the Clinton Presidential Library.

Some people today are Marxists, even though Marx is long dead. That's not because they are pretending Marx is still alive.

The philosophy lives on, just as the DLC philosophy lives on. The OP is off base.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

8. Kinda like saying the maggots are all gone.....but, there sure are a lot of flies.

[merrily]

58. Nope. The maggots are all there, too, right along with the flies. Please see Reply 57.

Still as repulsive as ever, too.

[bemildred]

11. They don't decide who is a DLCer, we do. nt

[Algernon Moncrieff]

18. No, I think they do.

They dissoved the organization. DUers can't unilaterally decide eople belong to a defunct organization.

[bemildred]

25. Sure we can, who is going to stop us? nt

[merrily]

59. Like Marxists ceased to be Marxists once Marx died? Dude, you're just wrong. Face It.

[Algernon Moncrieff]

70. You are wrong at several levels

Marx was a philosopher. He wrote a philosophy which many claimed to believe, but nobody actually practiced in anything larger than a commune or a Kibbutz. Marxism-Leninism and Maoism are adaptations of Marx that were actually practiced.

The DLC was basically an organization of people that believed that the Democratc Party had to field more business-friendly candidates and try to find common ground with the GOP during the Reagan/Bush I era.

I find it laughable that so many here are looking to root out fellow Democrats who don't meet some progressive purity test rather than to go fight against Republicans. The DLC is a dead organization. The people on the list below are not members of a dead organization. They are the Senate Republicans up for election on 2016.

Richard Shelby
Lisa Murkowski
John McCain
John Boozman
Marco Rubio
Johnny Isakson
Mike Crapo
Mark Kirk
Dan Coats
Chuck Grassley
Jerry Moran
Rand Paul
David Vitter
Roy Blunt
Kelly Ayotte
Richard Burr
John Hoeven
Rob Portman
James Lankford
Pat Toomey
Tim Scott
John Thune
Mike Lee
Ron Johnson

To me, this whole talk of "purges", "ignoring third wayers extreme prejudice", labeling people as DLCers when the DLC doesn't even exist anymore -- it's all rot. It's a dog chasing it's own tail. We have to keep a Democrat in the White House (which we'll figure out in the primaries), and we have to defeat at least 5 of the Senators on that list.

[merrily]

77. IOW, you can't or won't admit you're wrong. No worries. Denial is only the first step.

I'm rooting for you to get through the other steps in your own time.

Meanwhile, I don't think many bought that your insistence that using DLC in any way is just wrong is simply that you're a stickler about corporate dissolution.

And your attempts to debate the ins and outs of Marxism are both hilarious and, as previously stated, wholly irrelevant.

[woo me with science]

19. It's called rebranding.

All disreputable organizations do it.

[Mnemosyne]

23. Exactly. This^^^. nt

[nationalize the fed]

28. Kinda like when Blackwater changed its name to Xe Services

and now its called Academi








Academi continues to provide security services to the United States federal government on a contractual basis. The Obama administration contracted the group to provide services for the CIA for $250 million. In 2013, Academi subsidiary International Development Solutions received an approximately $92 million contract for State Department security guards.

When is James Clapper going to change his name?

Oops, it's not necessary. Lying to Congress is ok now.

[merrily]

60. Disreputable individuals attempt to assist said disreputable organizations in

said re-branding attempts.

If I've seen one third way apologist post that the DLC technically dissolved, I've seen at least forty.

Sorry, DLC founding members and DLC types don't get off on a technicality.

[99Forever]

72. Rebranding beats the crap..

...out of taking responsibility for the evil things that were done or actually changing your shitty behaviors.

[hifiguy]

75. Yep.

Wrap up the same old shit in a shiny new package with a new name. The turds are still inside the new package.

[Marr]

81. There's quite a push around here lately to make terms like "DLC" and "Third Way" taboo.

It's a pretty cynical attempt to control the language, so we have no means of even discussing our biggest problems.

[woo me with science]

22. Trashing thread now. Not just Third Way talking points,

but *absurd* Third Way talking points.

Ignore the 3rd Way shills with extreme prejudice
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5767160

When the DLC connections to the Koch Bros. became well known, they just rebranded the infiltration
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4165556

When you hear "Third Way", think INVESTMENT BANKERS
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024127432

GOP Donors and K Street Fuel Third Way’s Advice for the Democratic Party
http://www.democraticunderground.com/101680116

The Rightwing Koch Brothers fund the DLC
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x498414

Same companies behind the GOP are behind the DLC
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1481121

[RiverLover]

24. Whoa. This really IS an infiltration. Jesus, Thanks for posting!

[villager]

26. Exactly. Everyone knows what a "DLCer" is -- just as they know what a "Xerox copy" is

..regardless of what kind of copy machine it was made on...

[TorchTheWitch]

32. Exactly... bandaid, kleenex, Blackwater, etc.

If I changed my name to Lisa, Mary, Amy, etc. I'm still the same person.

DLC, New Democrats, Third Way, whatever, Blue Dogs, whatever... still the same shit.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

51. Please make this an OP so, I can Rec It. Thanks!

[madfloridian]

27. They just had a name change. Here you go....

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/02/09/dlc-shutting-down-third-way-is-the-democrats-true-centrist-powerhouse.html

The truth is, the DLC’s position as the leading centrist Democratic think tank was long ago overtaken by a group called Third Way, which has been growing more influential by the day. Before joining the White House, Bill Daley, President Obama’s new chief of staff, was a board member of Third Way.

In an interview before the news of the DLC’s shuttering, Ken Baer, communications director for the Office of Management and Budget and a longtime fan of Third Way, told me: “Their power is rising. They put out original policy ideas that are rooted in reality and relevant to the moment. They are really the only organization owning the reform space in the Democratic Party.”

These are no mere hacks. They are as steeped in the policy as they are wise about the political realities that Democrats face in a country where liberals are a distinct minority. They don’t deign to tell Americans what they should believe—the favorite game of too many liberals—but instead craft realistic policy proposals that have a chance of gaining some sort of popular support.

It also doesn’t hurt that Kessler and Cowan have direct lines to their former employers—New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo and Sen. Chuck Schumer, both rising stars in the Democratic firmament.

Obama hired Bill Daley, Gene Sperling, and Bruce Reed (Biden's guy), and had made Rahm Emanual his first Chief of staff.

[Algernon Moncrieff]

34. So they are now Third Wayers

...and by the way, hello, and I was truly saddened that Rick Scott was re-elected. I really thought Florida was smarter than that.

[madfloridian]

36. Nope, we have too many Tea party types.

Way too many. Sickens me too.

[Algernon Moncrieff]

37. It's really like three states

Orlando and the West Coast are more Midwestern and conservative -- but not crazy-conservative. The east Coast from Daytona to the Keys is more Mid Atlantic East-Coast in its sensibilities, and more liberal (especially Palm Beach & Broward). Then there is most everything north of I-4, which is Georgia, for all practical, political purposes.

[madfloridian]

39. And inland Central Florida is a world unto itself.

A not very open-minded world.

[TheKentuckian]

29. Yeah, all their leading members are too busying selling out the country in the highest

positions of power not held by TeaPubliKlans and/or promoting alternative platforms with the exact same agenda.

It matters not an iota what they call themselves a given week as they switch around as the truth of their Koch whore ways catches up to each phony stop, no a turd by any name stinks just as bad.
We know who they are and what their agenda is no matter what silly label including "no labels".

Nobody gives a damn about their lame Blackwater style rebranding, we know what they are and that is the only public service announcement of any merit on the topic. No, you aren't going to be allowed to pretend away what they are from seed uncontested.

[Algernon Moncrieff]

35. "No, you aren't going to be allowed to pretend away what they are from seed uncontested. "

What the Hell is "seed uncontested"?

[TheKentuckian]

44. How about "from seed, uncontested" Maybe that might work for you better.

Or perhaps yet clearer may be.

We know who these folks are.

We know what these folk's objectives are.

We will make sure their past sticks to them like stink on shit.

You can't hide in broad daylight.

We will not be daunted from making sure they are recognized despite rebranding.
If you or anyone else wishes to smokescreen for them by preaching and promoting the rebranding attempt that effort will not go without response. It will be refuted, ridiculed, and dismissed with extreme prejudice because it is dangerous nonsense.

Crystal?

[Algernon Moncrieff]

47. I understand what you are saying now

I have no idea how you get there from the phrase "from seed, uncontested."

Is it a Kentucky thing?

Meanwhile, by all means, you all go around ridiculing with extreme prejudice and organizing purges and setting up gulags over in cooking and baking and labeling people as DLCers, Whigs,,,whatever floats your boat. If you want to support Elizabeth Warren, a woman who stood with the party of Reagan, Bush, Gingrich, and Armey during the 1990s (since we're making sure their past sticks to them like stink on shit), have at it.

[TheKentuckian]

85. I'm a Sherod Brown guy myself, Warren is not my first choice but she seems more reasonable than most

NOW than 90% of the party.

Are you intimating that the DLC/Turd Way have had as significant policy and positions shift?

[Bluenorthwest]

33. At least be honest. Third Way is an actual organization. 'There might be third-wayers' is a false

way of speaking of what is a very real group called Third Way. People can visit the former DLC spirit intact at the Third Way's very own highly annoying website. Read 'em and weep.
http://www.thirdway.org/

[Algernon Moncrieff]

38. My intent was to indicate that one might accurately use those terms

My intent was not to state that there are no third-wayers.

There are third wayers. There are no DLCers in 2014.

Bonus Question: Look up a couple of posts. What the Hell is "Seed Uncontested"? Do you know?

[merrily]

62. The DLC think tank spawned a number of other think tanks, including Progressive Policy Institute,

Third Way, Center for American Progress and No Labels. It's irrevelant whether any individual is technically associated with any of these think tanks. They all share a common political philosophy. Some call themselves New Democrats, some call themselves neoliberals, some simply Democrats. But you know it when you see it. Russ Feingold, Sherrod Brown, Kucinich, not third way. Most of the others in DC are.

Claiming people who share a philosophy cannot be referred to as DLC is just false. Marx died long ago. People who follow his philosophy are still correctly referred to as "Marxists."

[pkdu]

78. You can only name one active member of congress who doesnt meet your purity test?...really

" Most if the others are (Third Wayers)"

Awesome analysis.

[merrily]

79. Not "my" purity test, but, did I say that list of two names was all inclusive?

If so, that is incorrect. I would include, at a minimum, most members of the House Progressive Caucus and I would count every single member of the Senate Progressive Caucus twice.

[merrily]

84. Must add the Massachusetts delegation. (How could I have omitted?)

I don't agree with every member on every issue, but overall, I am very pleased, especially since Lynch came out in favor of equal marriage. Capuano is, IMO, awesome. (We'll have to see Moulton in action.) My Senators are Markey and Warren (formerly Kennedy and Kerry). Not at all shabby overall.

[muriel_volestrangler]

40. To all insisting that the DLC lives: what do you think of Republicans who still rail against ACORN?

Do you think that, perhaps, they look unhealthily obsessed with the past? A bit detached from reality? Do you wonder how you come across?

[Algernon Moncrieff]

41. Thank you for making the point I was really trying to make

[Orsino]

42. If by ACORN they mean the idea they couldn't kill by ratfucking ACORN...

...then fearing DLCers who have simply morphed into Third Way or otherwise remained in Wall Street's pocket does make sense.

This thread may have begun with the good notion of reminding us that the DLC no longer exists on paper, but this little sub-thread is sounding a bit like Third Way denialism.

[TheKentuckian]

45. How many members of ACORN are in the highest levels of government

where are the organizations that are simply rebrands of them with the same leaders and funding? Where is the ongoing and expanding influence of the same players and agenda?

ACORN was annihilated, it had not achieved much of its agenda and was now on the run from picking up toxicity and the truth about how they got their claws on the party doing who's bidding. They were destroyed because of being a means to empower the people to oppose the and corrupt and cowardly Democrats helped with much zeal, egged on by the same folks and forces as being discussed here in this feeble smokescreen attempt.

[merrily]

63. Not the same at all. The DLC philosphy lives and those who founded the DLC are still controlling

the Democratic Party. People from ACORN are not still around as a group registering voters (more's the pity).

It is still correct to refer to a founder and former member of the DLC as a DLCer and still correct to refer to DLC types.

[cali]

43. a rose by any other name....

[MerryBlooms]

46. You're fooling yourself.

[Algernon Moncrieff]

48. No, I'm stating a fact everyone here seems to want to ignore

The DLC no longer exists.

I'm sure there is a successor organization.

[merrily]

64. The DLC think tank dissolved. The philosophy still exists.

There are many successor organizations (one of them being today's Democratic Party).

[Algernon Moncrieff]

66. Marx was a philosopher. The DLC was more like a club or a PAC

They didn't make philosophy so much as formed a group of like minded people.

Marx wrote a philosophy. Nobody actually adhered to what Marx wrote. Lenin adapted it into what eventually became Marxism-Leninism.

[merrily]

67. Absolutely untrue (as to the DLC). It promoted a philosophy, just like Marx did.

Nobody actually adhered to what Marx wrote. Lenin adapted it into what eventually became Marxism-Leninism.

Totally irrelevant to the analogy (whether or not even correct as to Marxism).

A philosophy does not die because the proponent of that philosophy dies (or dissolves) is the point. People still call themselves Marxists and are referred to by others as Marxist. That is the point.

[Algernon Moncrieff]

71. The DLC is an organzation

Those, such as yourself, insisting it is some kind of overarching philosophy are simply being obtuse.

[merrily]

73. Don't call others obtuse while you are being both disingenous and obtuse.

As you well know, I have said repeatedly on this thread that it was a think tank that promoted a philosophy and that philosophy is alive and well. You said the DLC was akin to a club. That's ludicrous.

Now you are claiming that I said the DLC, as an entity, IS a philosophy, so you can call me obtuse. That's dishonest. I no more said that than I said Marx IS a philosopy, not a deceased human who promoted a philosophy that lived after him. There was an entity called the DLC that promoted a philosophy that lived on after dissolution of the entity, commonly referred to as the DLC philosophy. That's what I've said.

[Zorra]

49. A cesspool, by any other name, still stinks like shit.

Apologies to Shakespeare.

[marmar]

50. Just because the pig has applied a new shade of lipstick .....

..... doesn't mean it's not still the same pig.

[merrily]

52. We know that think tank folded. Big deal. There are still DLC types and DLCers.

This keeps coming up and it's silly.

[Xithras]

61. They run the party. They don't need a different label anymore. They're just "Democrats"

Labels are used by minorities to organize and identify themselves as being a distinct and different group than the one in power. When the minority becomes the majority, the labels cease to matter.

Back when the DLC was a small group trying to change the party, the label made sense. They needed to identify themselves as being "different" than the existing power structures within the Democratic party. Today, the DLC IS the power structure within the party. Differentiating themselves serves no purpose, and can even alienate people away from them. "We aren't the DLC, we are the Democratic mainstream!"

The terrorists are winning.

[merrily]

65. The DLC was a think tank. It put out a philosophy. Those who buy into it are DLCers, even

though the think tank technically dissolved. Certainly the founding members are. Those who were never members are DLC types.


Marxists are Marxists, though Marx died. Same principle. Dissolution is the corporate counterpart of human death, only nowhere near as real since a corporation is a fiction to begin with. The people in the DLC, the Clintons, Lieberman, Warner, et al were the DLC, not the minute book or a few papers filed with some Secretary of State's office. The people were, and still are, DLC.

[merrily]

68. Public Service Announcement. The DLC think tank dissolved. DLCers, though, are alive and well

and still turning the Democratic Party into Pub Lite.

[LWolf]

69. YES. nt

[TheKentuckian]

86. Lite? Meh...I might be able to get the clothes pins out a whole longer.

What we are being served as Republican full flavor and it is only smoked screened by the Republicans going full on Bircher and/or fucking nuts and it isn't a WASP male only club.

What is bone chillingly frightening is that in a few years depending on how much nuttier the Teabags are willing to go we could be essentially putting their agenda into place as the Turd Way chases those villains clear into dystopia.

See, "lesser of two evils" breaks down when both choices are dead ends one can be described as worse but in practice fucked is fucked.

[merrily]

93. There are some differences, due to the history of the Democratic Party

Last edited Tue Nov 11, 2014, 01:46 AM - Edit history (1)

It can't go overtly full blown anti-union, for example, and that does impact some economic issues. It can't go racist. It can't go anti choice or "little woman." And it has finally supported equal marriage. All those things do mean a lot to many people. Is it all it should be? No, but it ain't nutthin'.

Then again, I once thought it could never touch Social Security or Medicare, but rather had to defend both vigorously.

[TBF]

74. Thanks Skippy -

we couldn't have figured any of this out ourselves.

What you need to understand is that currently you can't even get 60% of this country to come near the polls. Keep going down that road and no one will be voting. I suggest you think about whether you really want to insult progressives or if you'd like to acknowledge your candidates aren't cutting it.

[Erose999]

76. There are plenty of sitting reps and senators, former presidents, etc who were DLC'ers though. It is

also clear that the DLC formed out of the pro-Reagan "Boll Weevil" movement, which formed out of the "States Rights Democrats" of the George Wallace era, which were the "Dixiecrats" of the LBJ era. One could trace the roots of DLC all the way back to Benedict Arnold, Brutus, and Cain if one were so inclined.

After the DLC dissolved, it then became many successive groups, including "No Labels," "Third Way," the "New Democrat Coalition," "Blue Dog Coalition" etc etc etc etc

[Marr]

80. Rebranding doesn't erase the past, sorry.

The DLC was dissolved and rebranded. The people who comprised it are still very prominent in US politics, and the label still has meaning.

[LWolf]

82. Changing the brand name or logo

doesn't change the existence. The con artists formerly known as "DLC" are still there, whether they call themselves "centrists," "3rd way," "New Democrats," or any other label. Interestingly, the one label they tend to avoid is the most accurate: neo-liberals.

If it walks like, talks like, acts like a neo-liberal, it doesn't really matter how the labels evolve.

[hobbit709]

83. And there are no longer any Whigs but that doesn't mean their attitudes aren't still around

[MirrorAshes]

88. And this post is trying to accomplish what exactly?

PSA: DUers intentionally muddying the waters should be looked at with suspicion.

[Algernon Moncrieff]

89. Ooohhh -- yes, look at a posts with suspicion

DU is riddled with infiltrators. They are around every corner.

Good God! Give it a rest. I'm just tired of seeing posers talk about DLCers when there is no more DLC.

[MirrorAshes]

91. Sure you are.

I believe you. Really. Thank you so much for your attempts to clarify this all-important issue.

[Algernon Moncrieff]

92. Really, I don't care if you believe me, don't believe me, put me on ignore.

The DLC is dead and gone. Posters keep referring to people as DLCers.

You say be suspicious of DUers intentionally muddying the waters? What are these waters I'm alleged to be muddying? To what end?

DUers who believe that there is a vast network of agent-provocateurs infiltrating this site need to push themselves away from the keyboard and go dunk their head in some icewater. Of course, I'm not referring to you.

[JEB]

90. Good riddance.

Next up, turd way.