"She's gonna be the girl who cried 'rape,' and we'll never be allowed into any frat party again."

[kpete]

A Rape on Campus: A Brutal Assault and Struggle for Justice at UVA

Jackie was just starting her freshman year at the University of Virginia when she was brutally assaulted by seven men at a frat party. When she tried to hold them accountable, a whole new kind of abuse began

By Sabrina Rubin Erdely | November 19, 2014

...................

When Jackie came to, she was alone. It was after 3 a.m. She painfully rose from the floor and ran shoeless from the room. She emerged to discover the Phi Psi party still surreally under way, but if anyone noticed the barefoot, disheveled girl hurrying down a side staircase, face beaten, dress spattered with blood, they said nothing. Disoriented, Jackie burst out a side door, realized she was lost, and dialed a friend, screaming, "Something bad happened. I need you to come and find me!" Minutes later, her three best friends on campus – two boys and a girl (whose names are changed) – arrived to find Jackie on a nearby street corner, shaking. "What did they do to you? What did they make you do?" Jackie recalls her friend Randall demanding. Jackie shook her head and began to cry. The group looked at one another in a panic. They all knew about Jackie's date; the Phi Kappa Psi house loomed behind them. "We have to get her to the hospital," Randall said.

Their other two friends, however, weren't convinced. "Is that such a good idea?" she recalls Cindy asking. "Her reputation will be shot for the next four years." Andy seconded the opinion, adding that since he and Randall both planned to rush fraternities, they ought to think this through. The three friends launched into a heated discussion about the social price of reporting Jackie's rape, while Jackie stood beside them, mute in her bloody dress, wishing only to go back to her dorm room and fall into a deep, forgetful sleep. Detached, Jackie listened as Cindy prevailed over the group: "She's gonna be the girl who cried 'rape,' and we'll never be allowed into any frat party again."

Two years later, Jackie, now a third-year, is worried about what might happen to her once this article comes out. Greek life is huge at UVA, with nearly one-third of undergrads belonging to a fraternity or sorority, so Jackie fears the backlash could be big – a "shitshow" predicted by her now-former friend Randall, who, citing his loyalty to his own frat, declined to be interviewed. But her concerns go beyond taking on her alleged assailants and their fraternity. Lots of people have discouraged her from sharing her story, Jackie tells me with a pained look, including the trusted UVA dean to whom Jackie reported her gang-rape allegations more than a year ago. On this deeply loyal campus, even some of Jackie's closest friends see her going public as tantamount to betrayal.


"One of my roommates said, 'Do you want to be responsible for something that's gonna paint UVA in a bad light?'?" says Jackie, poking at a vegan burger at a restaurant on the Corner, UVA's popular retail strip. "But I said, 'UVA has flown under the radar for so long, someone has to say something about it, or else it's gonna be this system that keeps perpetuating!'?" Jackie frowns. "My friend just said, 'You have to remember where your loyalty lies.'"

..............



Read more: http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/features/a-rape-on-campus-20141119#ixzz3JZqzqC00

[shenmue]

1. Awful

[big_dog]

86. Phi Kappa Psi suspended all operations today

UVA Melting Down After Explosive Rape Article


The University of Virginia chapter of the Phi Kappa Psi fraternity has voluntarily suspended all operations following several disturbing sexual assault claims detailed in a recent Rolling Stone story, the fraternity announced in a letter to student newspaper The Cavalier Daily.

Several UVA students were allegedly the victim of gang rapes at the Phi Psi house, Rolling Stone reports. Brothers recieved light punishments from the university, if any at all, according to the Rolling Stone article.

UVA is not currently releasing the location of president Teresa Sullivan, citing "safety concerns," according to a local news report.

After the Rolling Stone article went live online, the Phi Psi house was vandalized with graffiti reading "UVA Center for RAPE Studies" and "SUSPEND US!" The image below is from The Cavalier Daily:

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/uva-chapter-of-phi-kappa-psi-voluntarily-suspends-itself-2014-11#ixzz3JeDXJbqO

[elway7]

88. That is great news!!!

I've been fuming about this all morning. I hope these fuckers get their due justice. That poor girl.

[staggerleem]

133. I was once a Phi Psi ...

... at Colgate U (Upstate NY) in the early 70's. They've been bothering me all year to update my information for their "Grand Catalog of Alumni", and since I did not graduate from Colgate (or as a frat boy) I've declined.

It appears that disassociating myself from them was an even better idea than I'd thought!

[BlueJazz]

2. "'You have to remember where your loyalty lies.'"

Her Loyalty should be to the human race. If the truth is too hurtful, find another reality.

[ReRe]

120. That question really stuck out to me...

... So where should her loyalties lie if not to herself? Fuck the college, fuck the Frat. & Sor. I'm a runner. If that had happened to me, I would have left that excuse for a college, sued everyone I could remember (including her supposed friends) AND the college, took a year off to get counseling and to heal, then I would have gone to any number of hundreds of excellent schools, and I would stay as far awake from the Greek crowd for the rest of my life.

[BlueJazz]

122. YES! And maybe those after you would not have had horrible things happen to them.

[lisby]

145. It is unbelievable that these children...

...and I use the word children because clearly they are children in adult bodies incapable of rational thought, it seems--cannot see beyond the mere four years that they will be at university and contrast that with the many, many other years that they will not.

The kind of "loyalty" to a school or a ridiculous frat organization that makes one believe they should stay silent about a vicious crime is not laudable, it is farcical. Real adults need to step in take this incident seriously, whether the children can reason their way to that point or not. I hope the police and campus authorities actually are adult enough to do this and bring justice--or at least some kind of redress.

[Brigid]

3. "Never be allowed into any frat party again?"

Um, Cindy I have a little news for you: It's no loss.

[mythology]

37. In fact that sounds like a feature

Especially after your friend was just violated.

[calimary]

95. I saw that and said "Oh, boo-hoo. Cry me a river."

OMG! NO MORE FRAT PARTIES!!!! Oh the HUMANITY!!!!!!! Oh sob! No more precious frat parties! I suppose we're now supposed to accept the "sanctity of the frat party" or some such bullshit. (I'm now on a mission to pervert and hijack the word "sanctity." It's been used and convoluted by the GOP for far too long, to justify bullshit and more 13th Century thinking.)

Oh Forcryingoutloud!!!! They worry about not being able to go to a frat party anymore? THAT is the downside???? SHEEEESH!!!!

Priorities. All crooked, upside down, and backwards.

How 'bout the fraternities start worrying about losing their charters and not being accepted on campus anymore - not being able to THROW frat parties anymore? How 'bout "Your DAMN FRAT ENDS. HERE. NOW."

[JanMichael]

116. Some of the comments at RS are deplorable. Total denial of the facts of rape.

I was asked to pledge at the mid-level university that I was attending some 25 years ago and I declined the invite. I had no idea what I avoided at the time by being such a beer swigging loner.

What is even creepier is guys that are literally having metaphorical sex with each other by simultaneously attacking a young girl and think they are straight. That is some sick perverted violent shit. Then again my group of friends had a couple of run ins with the frat boys at bars and they always struck me as preppy clothes wearing, cologne drenched, daddy got too much money, fanatical animals anyway.

And the fact that most of these assaults are committed by serial rapists is even worse. They should never have that kind of opportunity to attack.

[truedelphi]

148. You make a good point in your second paragraph.

These young men not only have a criminalality that someone in authority should be going after them for, but they exhibit behavior that means in most of their daily actions, they are misogynists, and homophobes.

In a certain setting, they would go after a group of openly gay people. select an individual and then brutalize that poor person, where they felt it was safe to do so.

[maddiemom]

136. There was a promising period through the early sixties to early seventies, when being a G.D.I.

(G.D. Independent) was more than fine. Some very bright, active and attractive kids actually had the nerve to be dissing the Greek experience, and nobody could possibly call them jealous outsiders. On the farthest extreme, were the "Animal House" and other films set in the early sixties, portraying that period (please sir, can I have another?) Wonderfully funny parodying of the antagonists: typical fraternity and sorority kids of the era who were stuck in a Fifties world. But, what goes around, comes around, and apparently the Greek systems on campus rule once again.

[McCamy Taylor]

139. Who is their right mind would want to attend a frat party?

[Stargazer09]

4. That made me cry

The asshole groomed her for weeks, then supervised her rape as if she was nothing more to him than a blow-up doll. And he had the absolute disgusting gall to act like it wasn't important every time he saw her afterwards.

Damn those school officials who think that campus rape is just a bad PR story that needs to be hidden from view.

Sometimes, I want off this planet.

[Dont call me Shirley]

13. He's what's called a sociopath and he will probably become a banker or a politician.

These UVA rapists sully the name of Thomas Jefferson. He would be appalled.

[zentrum]

19. Unfortunately

...he maybe wouldn't. He raped Sally Hemmings, his slave, was a slave owner and liked---liked---to break in his horses by whipping them pretty badly. It was known to invigorate him.

I know what you're driving at, but I'm not so sure he wouldn't have swept it under the rug as a standard member of the Patriarchy.

[Dont call me Shirley]

31. So the sins of the Fathers continues on. Human consciousness must rise above all forms of attack.

[ProfessorGAC]

59. You're Also Not Sure We Would Have

So, you are engaging in idle speculation and pronouncing it as some revelation. Man, that's easier than i thought.

[AverageJoe90]

74. I'm sorry, but that's not true.

Wherever you heard bit about the horse-whipping.....it sounds too tabloidish to be even half-true. (you have to remember that the Founders didn't always like each other and gossiping and scandalmongering were almost certainly at least as common than as now.....maybe even more so)

[zentrum]

85. He was a giant

......intellect and a type of Renaissance man, but yeah, I'm not one much given to hagiographies about our American so-called heroes.

Read the bit about the horses in a serious Jefferson biography from years ago, not at all a tabloid. He liked to do it in the morning. The writer wasn't making much of it other than that it's something Jefferson specifically told his farm manager he personally wanted to do and the description sounded quite brutal. I did not keep reading the book and don't remember the cite. Had I known I would need it a few decades later to make a point, I'd have noted it down. I know the author was taking on the recent controversy about Jefferson, as any good historian has to. I'm sure it was a reputable author or I wouldn't have bothered to buy the book.

However, there's this from Fortune Magazine, Nov, 2013:

"Jefferson was willful, ambitious, and demanding. He did not take kindly to being crossed by his inferiors, be they man or beast. (“The only impatience of temper he ever displayed,” a grandson recalled, 'was with his horse, which he subdued to his will by a fearless application of the whip on the slightest manifestation of restiveness.')"

So the story of Jefferson and his horses is out there.

Suggest you take a look at this by Robbert Parry, a historian in the mold of Howard Zinn, both of whom I trust:
http://consortiumnews.com/2014/07/04/thomas-jefferson-americas-founding-sociopath/

[AverageJoe90]

94. Not buying it, sorry.

Especially given the era in which the allegations were made.....and who knows what the motivation was? My apologies, but I can't have helped become quite cynical regarding these "alternate" interpretations of the era, especially with stuff like Gerald Horne's unbelievably trashy "The Counter Revolution of 1776" being taken as if it were the fucking Gospel by some more naive, and/or nitwitted, folks on our side, just because it appears to be opposed to stuff like what's been coming from David Barton and other RIGHT-WING assholes.

(BTW, Robert Parry isn't that much better than Howard Zinn, it seems, when it comes to historical inaccuracies, having read the article. And this is coming from a guy who does respect Zinn.....but, let's face it, Zinn wasn't )

But I don't want to distract too much from the topic, so I'll just leave it there for now, unless you'd like to continue this over the DU Mail system.

[zentrum]

98. Okey-doke n/t

[maddiemom]

137. OK, Sally Hemmings as Jefferson's slave mistress is historical fact. Even creepier,

she was his late wife's half-sister and was said to greatly resemble Martha Jefferson. Some visitors to Monticello claimed to have been served at dinner by young slaves who much resembled Jefferson himself. Be that as it may, I'd be interested in references to his cruelty (and alleged turn-on) by abusing horses. T.J. was no saint, but this seems an over-the-top accusation I'd never heard before.

[mackerel]

141. It's out there, as well as, his extravagant lifestyle and he was constantly in arrears

to his creditors. He had major double standards.

[maddiemom]

143. "It's out there" OK, but could you refer me to the actual references?

[nomorenomore08]

106. "Sometimes, I want off this planet." Same here.

[Marie Marie]

5. With "friends" like this...

Sigh!

[Initech]

16. Yeah seriously.

[LWolf]

33. Yes.

That's my reaction, as well.

[BeanMusical]

108. That was my first thought.

[Odin2005]

6. This is why the Greek frats need to be shut down.

Every last one of them.

[Dorian Gray]

28. I agree

I am more and more thankful that I didn't attend a university with fraternities, and I'm going to steer my daughter (only four years old now) toward one without fraternities. A nice liberal arts, feminist and small university.

God, administrations really suck, don't they?

[azmom]

82. My daughter is attending Mount Holyoke College

A small, all women liberal arts college. She loves it.

[Dorian Gray]

103. It's beautiful up there.

I have a friend who lives in South Hadley, and all the colleges up in that area are great. Glad your daughter loves it!

[Odin2005]

112. I find it sad that women are resorting to self-segregation to protect themselves.

[RedCappedBandit]

29. My fraternity would never tolerate this sickening behavior.

But it is clearly a problem in greek life. I wonder if shutting down greek life would really mitigate this behavior though; seems you'll still have groups of young men, parties, creating the circumstances in which these tragedies can occur.

[VWolf]

56. Nor would mine n/t

[eppur_se_muova]

66. At least they wouldn't carry an implied endorsement by the University ...

bad behavior is expected to cost frats their association with the school. Some expelled frats try to maintain an "unofficial" house off-campus, but everyone knows that if they're not on-campus, there must be a particular reason, and that marks them as places to avoid. By allowing these frats to maintain their affiliation, UVA is deceiving many women into a false sense of security. That strikes me as profoundly irresponsible, if not actively collusional. Certainly liable.

Personally, I've never really understood the attraction of fraternities -- though I did meet some people from a "pre-professional" fraternity who seemed to take very seriously the idea that they were joined together to help make themselves more successful in their studies and subsequent careers, and were less concerned with socializing. Their "parties" were full dress-up dinner parties, with social niceties observed -- like mature, professional adults. But then I've dealt with the "arrested development" fratboys far more often, and wouldn't object even a whisper if the whole system were to go.

[RedCappedBandit]

75. The university needs to be more accountable

and it needs to hold the affiliated greek organizations to a higher standard.

I think what's going on here is an issue with UVA, not an issue with the idea of greek life itself. That said there is an issue in the US with greek life; obviously there is a lot of sexual violence going on and it absolutely does need to be addressed. Any greek organization that is found to be engaging in this sort of behavior should have its charter removed instantly, period.

I still believe that there are good greek organizations, and the idea of a greek organization does have the potential to be benevolent. My fraternity did a lot for the community at every opportunity. We also did have parties. However, we were not the type of fraternity to attract these jocks who engage in this obnoxiously sociopathic behavior, and if a brother, (or even worse a group of brothers) were found to be treating women this way, there's no way that would have been tolerated. We weren't like what you've described though.. it was a state school, definitely not dress-up dinner parties; we were just average college kids going through life together, looking out for one another and our community.

I'll be the first to admit that my fraternity experience is probably not the norm, though.

Frankly I've never been much for greek life either. It was kind of a fluke I bumped into the group of guys I did. But it happened, and it was a positive experience. I think these sub-human scum exposed in the OP's article do a disservice to the whole idea. The good greek organizations need to do more to expose the bad and advocate for change.

[SoCalDem]

71. It's probably less likely to occur at a dorm than a frat house

Frat houses have always had that "bubble" around them until they really f-up..

[RedCappedBandit]

73. The uni needs to be held more accountable

My campus did not even permit official fraternity houses. If there are fraternity houses, they should be under increased scrutiny. Why there would be a bubble around them is beyond me.

House parties are an issue. But that's not unique to greek life (and I must emphasize that I am not trying to diminish the fact that there is a problem in greek life, by the numbers alone) and I really don't think getting rid of greek life in general will address the root of the issue. It's more to do with how these young men act in these situations where there is little accountability and too much alcohol and stupidity thrown together.

[truedelphi]

146. The media in Calif. constantly reports on students who have won large

Settlements against High School Districts, when bullying or other horrid behavior was allowed to occur. Some of these settlements are rather serious, monetarily speaking.

The assaulted young women in UVA should band together and go and legally stomp on the finances of that rapacious University -- suing everyone from the head dean on down.

The UVA officials seem to be scared about the rich parents of the perps - but if the young women got lawyers and went after the officials and got monetary damages, that might do some real good in terms of changing attitudes.

And I hope the Rolling Stone article has a HUGE EFFECT on dropping attendance at that school.

[Pacifist Patriot]

79. Don't put money on that.

I went to a university where Greek life was the vast majority of the social activity available. I felt a lot safer in the frat houses on my campus than in the dorm where I was raped (28 years ago...devastated not much has appeared to have changed). I interact regularly with college-age kids across several campuses (state college to university) and dorms do not seem to be regarded as any safer than frat houses. Or frat houses as any more dangerous for that matter.

I suspect it's not possible to generalize since on the ground situations will be different for each university. Probably about the only blanket statement we can make is that we live in a rape culture and of course our college campuses would reflect that. We still have a long way to go.

[xmas74]

117. When I was in college I was raped by an athlete.

Who found me a few hours later and made sure I got the help I needed immediately? A greek. (It was a TKE, to be more specific.) And when the school swept it under the rug who defended me and beat the living daylights out of the guy? A couple of greeks. (Alpha Sigma Phi, in that case.) And a few more TKEs escorted me around for a few weeks, worrying about my safety especially at night.

Some greeks do stupid things, some do illegal things. Personally, I felt safer around them than I did around some of the other groups on campus.

[NuclearDem]

155. Nor would the fraternity I work for.

Any of our members involved in something this disgusting would be expelled without hesitation.

[LeftinOH]

34. That won't solve anything - and it punishes the vast majority of kids

who are members of fraternities and sororities who have done nothing wrong. As a former fraternity member, it is painful beyond description to hear stories like this. It is equally irritating to hear the knee-jerk "shut them all down" solution that supposedly would prevent this type of thing from happening.

"Shutting down fraternities" by extension, means shutting down all women's sororities, all ethnic fraternities, and even LGBT fraternities (yes they exist). Young men with violent/psychopathic tendencies will find each other no matter what. Sports teams are rife with them. The individual chapters in which thinks like this appalling assault take place SHOULD be shut down, but "every last one of them"? No.

[RedCappedBandit]

77. The sports houses

were where this shit was rumored to occur at my college. Greek life was held to a higher standard.

I agree with you; ending Greek life will just send those kids elsewhere. That solution doesn't address the actual issue.

[mythology]

39. That's both an overreaction and won't solve the problem

Not every frat would act like this. Look at the frat building homes for the homeless in I think Alabama.

But also it's not like frat parties are the only places where rape occurs.

[L0oniX]

43. If I were a woman I'd never date or marry any man who is in or had been in a frat.

[VWolf]

57. My wife did

and we've been married for over 20 years.

Not sure if we're the exception or the rule, though.

[RedCappedBandit]

78. Would you be able to tell? nt.

[staggerleem]

134. On many campuses ...

... frat houses are among the best living arrangements for upperclassmen.

As I said in a comment above, I was a Phi Psi myself once, at Colgate U, in the 72-73 academic year. At that time, Colgate had exactly one dormitory for non-freshmen, with room for maybe 100 students. Essentially, the choices were to rent a house or apartment off-campus (with enough roommates to make it semi-affordable), to become a "Resident Adviser" and live in a freshman dorm (again, very limited opportunities) or to pledge a frat and live there, which was what I did. From my son's college experience, and what I've heard from my nephews, things aren't much different today.

So don't paint all "frat boys" with the same brush. Lots of them are just there because they didn't really have anywhere else to go.

[LynneSin]

84. I will stand up and say I disagree!`

I was in a sorority and I had many friends who were in Fraternities.

Not all the greeks out there were drunken rape groups. The Greek system is like any other group out there - there's some bad ones out there that make the rest of us look bad. At our college we were all required to do so many hours of community service and keep our grades at a certain level. And although we all did like to party there was little tolerance for shit that was in that article. Even the hint of rape would have landed that group in front of the Dean of Students.

One of the things that my college had done was eliminate the houses, which were one of the more dangerous things and instead we lived in the dorms with everyone else. We were allowed to have a floor specificially for our group and even a lounge area but it was shared with other students who weren't members of our greek. So that did help keep our behavior in line a bit.

[Odin2005]

100. I think your last paragraph is a good comprise solution!

[markpkessinger]

114. As I read the article . . .

Last edited Thu Nov 20, 2014, 10:47 PM - Edit history (1)

. . . I was struck by how much of what was going on at UVA seemed to be a function of a sense of entitlement on the part of a certain social class of young men (as well as the enabling behavior of their pathetic suck-ups, hangers-on and wannabes), as much or more than it was a function of the Greek system per se.

[LynneSin]

119. I have to agree

Maybe it's because I went to a small liberal arts college and not a huge school, but the Greeks were not allowed to run crazy on campus on our campus. We had alot of fun, did crazy stuff during pledging and had some amazing roadtrips with a lifetime of memories. But even though this was 30 years ago, my school was progressive enough to realize that too much privileges to any one group could cause serious issue to campus life. I do know that a few years before I attended there were about 3 or 4 Greek Houses including one for my sorority but they were banished before I attended. The houses that weren't condemned were turned into upperclassman housing and you had to maintain a certain GPA to get one of the rooms (I lived in one my junior year because I knew I had a tough semester and wanted to be off the sorority floor but moved back to the sorority floor my senior year).

To abolish all Greeks because of a few asshole systems out there is just wrong. That article is about the 1% and banning Greeks would be punishing the 99% who are good people who aren't crazy, rapest sociopaths but instead get decent grades, study hard and give back to the school and community.

[markpkessinger]

121. My college had no fraternities or sororities . . .

. . . it was a small, private music conservatory (Westminster Choir College in Princeton, NJ, class of '83), that had all of 450 students (including grad students!). We managed to do our fair share of partying and hooking up, though!

The other thing that really struck me in the article was the response by the girl's "friends," who were more concerned about their future social life on campus than about her well-being. If that kind of attitude is at all typical of UVA students, then it's a campus of sociopaths!

[maced666]

154. Oops?

[uppityperson]

7. ARRRGGGHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"She's gonna be the girl who cried 'rape,' and we'll never be allowed into any frat party again."

No, she was the girl THEY RAPED and why the hell would you want to go to that sort of party again?

'You have to remember where your loyalty lies.'

WTF? Your loyalty lies with your friends, keeping them safe.

"What, she's not hot enough for you?" Then they egged him on: "Don't you want to be a brother?"

Fuck you "bros", I don't want to be a rapist!

On this deeply loyal campus, even some of Jackie's closest friends see her going public as tantamount to betrayal.

No. Betrayal is when you hurt your friends. Period.

The more privileged he is, the more likely the woman has to die before he's held accountable.

ALL people need to be held accountable. This is never ok, to rape, to feel forced to participate by your "friends", to feel forced to cover up by your "friends".

No. No. No. No. No.

[hrmjustin]

163. Back so soon?

[In_The_Wind]

164. I saw that one.

[hrmjustin]

165. Hopefully otto will get it next time.

[In_The_Wind]

166. It seems like they love to drop in around the MIRT change over.

[Spazito]

8. The attitude of her "friends" are why it continues...

why it doesn't change.

Appalling.

[okieinpain]

9. yet people talk shit about black people in ferguson protesting. n/t.

[sakabatou]

10. UGH!

[Beaverhausen]

11. That university should be shut down

They knowingly allow felonies to happen on campus and do nothing.

[LeftyMom]

12. Does anybody else think it's weird that there's more criticism here for the three friends

than the seven rapists?

[Spazito]

15. No, condemnation of the 7 putrid rapists is a given...

The criticism of the "friends" who betrayed her enabling the 7 putrid rapists to continue to rape is more than merited.

[LeftyMom]

17. In this culture I'm not at all convinced it's a given.

Further, your framing is unrealistic. Pushing her not to report was terrible, and doing it for such self-interested reasons especially so. But even if she had reported the chances that anything would have been done are sadly small. Blaming the friends for giving the victim bad advice- and they gave terrible, self-interested advice- is just victim blaming by proxy.

The condemnation needs to be of the rapists.

The culture won't change as long as we dance around the periphery of the issue. Rape isn't caused by failure to report rape, it's caused by rapists. If her rapists continued in their behavior it's not because she didn't report. It's because they chose to rape.

Period.

[Spazito]

20. The culture won't change if the continued cover-ups are accepted...

The "friends" were part of the cover-up.

"Rape isn't caused by failure to report rape, it's caused by rapists. If her rapists continued in their behavior it's not because she didn't report. It's because they chose to rape. "

I find your statements rather bizarre. Reporting rape is essential in addressing rape and rapists. Reporting rapists is how one stops them from continuing to rape.

[LeftyMom]

21. That argument only works if anything gets done after the reports,

and unfortunately that's laughably untrue.

By demanding that victims report what we're really demanding the vast majority of them do is be re-victimized by the system with absolutely nothing to show for it. Seriously, if you want to get really fucking depressed go look up conviction rates for rape. I'll wait.

Back now?

Any anti-rape strategy that doesn't center on creating a culture of consent is horseshit. The sad fact of the matter is probably not a one of those seven frat boys thinks what happened was rape. And the way to change things is to change what goes on in their heads, and the heads of the next generation of boys who will follow behind them.

[Spazito]

22. You're advocating a rape victim not report the rape?

Wow.

[derby378]

50. I don't think that's what she said

If you are raped, you have a duty to report the attack before the perpetrator rapes someone else. If you don't report it, who's next? Your neighbor? Your best friend? Your sister?

[Spazito]

55. If only the poster had posted what you did...

they didn't, they espoused the opposite.

Post #21

"If her rapists continued in their behavior it's not because she didn't report. It's because they chose to rape."

[chervilant]

102. Not even remotely,

is LeftyMom advocating that a rape victim not report the rape. She is, rather, advocating that you recognize that ONLY RAPISTS are responsible for their criminal actions.

The young co-ed who was gang raped by several disgusting rapists DID report the rape, as you would know if you read the article.

[Spazito]

105. The sequence of discussion went as follows...

The poster took those criticizing the "friends" of the victim encouraging her to NOT report to task for not focusing on the rapists. I made the point condemnation of the putrid rapists is a given and the criticism of the "friends" was valid.

The poster then laid out the difficulty of reporting without pointing out it is very important for rapes to be reported if the rapist/s is to be stopped.

Without reports there are no statistics that can be used to bolster the fight for change.

As to the victim in the article reporting, I made NO claim that she didn't report, the discussion was in relation to the "friends" encouraging her NOT to report which brings us back to why the criticism of the "friends" was valid.

[chervilant]

107. And I quote:

"You're advocating a rape victim not report the rape?

Wow."

Again, that is NOT what LeftyMom was advocating.

[Spazito]

111. That was how the post came across...

for the reasons I spelled out in my previous post to you. Your interpretation of the poster's posts differs from mine.

[F4lconF16]

24. I agree with what you're saying here.

100%. The rapists committed the crime. It's no one else's fault, period. We absolutely need to focus on them, and focus on creating a culture where rape is, as has been said before, as unthinkable as cannabalism. We need to address the culture that allows rape.

That said, I would argue that we should blame the friends, not for the crime, but for perpetuating that culture. I disagree with the statement "Blaming the friends for giving the victim bad advice- and they gave terrible, self-interested advice- is just victim blaming by proxy." I think I can say that the victim is not at fault, and still say that the friends should have done something, anything, differently. Letting them off the hook is like teaching children not to say something or do something if someone else is bullying. They are not to blame, no, but they do have a social responsibility to at least help the woman who was assaulted. They need to be shown that their "loyalty" is flat-out wrong.I find their actions disgusting--not as bad as the rapists, to be clear--but still morally repulsive.

I do agree that we should not require the victim to report the rape--I know that very few rapists are ever convicted, and that it often can just make a situation worse, as happened to a friend of mine. Like you say, her lack of reporting is not to blame here. Rape happens when someone decides to rape, not for lack of someone saying something.

[truedelphi]

147. Spazito, that is how I view it also.

I also think that there need to be laws in place that make it a serious crime for officials at a school to allow this type of thing to happen.

The fact that for years, under age drinking was allowed at the fraternity in question - that fact alone makes me wonder why the damn officials didn't shut the place down. So even if they can't bring themselves to believe that these rapes and assaults occurred,
why do they allow a serious crime of continual parties with underage drinking to go on? There was proof every weekend of that happening!

ALso, when anyone on campus is trying tor report a crime, the police should be brought in.

The fact and issue of college officials having a fiduciary responsibility to ALL THEIR STUDENTS - not just the "bluebloods" - is a serious matter. In Calif., poorly paid elder care workers can be charged with felonies for mis-treating or stealing from their clients. The reason for this is because when you are working for someone, you have a fiduciary responsibility to be looking out for their interests. So your offense is a double offense if perpetrated against a client.

These young women who were the victims of assault and rape are not only the victims of those crimes - but they or their parents were paying $ 10,000 a year for that "privilege."

And again and again in the RS article, it is brought up about how afraid the deans and other officials at UVA are of the perps' parents. Why, the UVA deans could be the victims of lawsuits from the rapists' parents! Or the parents might not contribute a new library or new wing for the Fine Arts building!

But the deans and officials are supposedly working for the students, all students.

And they have done a piss poor job of it.

[Spazito]

149. I completely agree with you...

There needs to be a serious overhaul of the processes dealing with rape/sexual assault within the college/university systems.

[mythology]

40. Because in general I expect more of a random friend

Than a random rapist.

[Locrian]

44. yep

People seem to think extraordinary character needs to be shown and people need to risk everything (reputation, safety, etc) when they are the victim to report and challenge an entire system that is stacked against them. (Don't get me wrong - it's absolutely heroic when they do).

But very little condemnation on the complete lack of moral character and discussion of any psychological sickness on the part of the attackers. Or on the patriarchal system in place (not to mention cowardliness) of the school and their obvious aversion to "bad publicity".


In a working system, people should ABSOLUTELY report rape. But they system (police, school, media, etc) must respond and not attack the victim - otherwise it makes sense (bad sense) that those will be less likely to report. The SYSTEM is what needs to be fixed - it's the SYSTEM that is not showing moral character and strength - not the victims.

[Dont call me Shirley]

14. Thanks for posting, kpete. You stand up for us when very few will.

[NaturalHigh]

18. I hope the federal investigation...

will force the school to finally step up and do something about this. From the information in the article, it seems like they've had chance after chance after chance to crack down on the offenders but haven't done it.

Also, the UVA president should be fired. It's obvious from her comments and dismissive attitude that she's more interested in public relations than protecting these students. As the one lawyer toward the end of the article said (paraphrased), there are ample grounds for these victims to sue the university for its complicity in these crimes.

[FourScore]

23. Jackie needs new friends. n/t

[Tsiyu]

25. Today I have told all the college aged kids I know: stay away from UVA

http://www.phikappapsi.com/ContactUs


What a lovely fraternity.....their parents must be so proud of their gangbanger sons.


Phi Kappa Psi - a fraternity of Greek Rapists and thugs.

Edit to add: I swear the UVA president looks like Purple Bandaid lady. You oldtimers know to whom I refer.

maybe it's just me....

[calimary]

96. VILE woman. That one then, and this one now.

[Tsiyu]

124. Agreed

Good to see you, calimary.

I guess the prez of UVA is in hiding.

Getting a taste of being prey, perhaps.

[maced666]

158. EGG

[Tsiyu]

159. Because some of her "friends"

dispute her story and she didn't divulge the names of the people who harmed her? The fact that she never named anyone tells me she wasn't out for revenge.

Not sure what your cryptic post means, but I'm sure it means something



Rolling Stone is apologizing for lazy journalism, but there is a very serious issue with rape on many campuses- and a very serious problem at UVA in particular - and if this shakes them to their fucking core, it is of value.

I believe the author of the story, and expected the backlash - amazed it took so long - but shady lawyers and PR firms take a while to work their magic and develop their strategy.

That it took so long to give these petty reasons to dismiss a real problem is a huge tell.

[Oktober]

26. Greek life is disgusting...

[Warpy]

27. I only went to one frat party

It was rush season and I was paired up with one of the brothers. I'd only gone because it was a dry rush--ha! The asshole kept trying to pour alcohol down my throat, not knowing I'd been a drunk at 13 and was way over it. I went upstairs to use the loo and found the house mother and her boyfriend and made a third for cutthroat casino and stayed there until my roommate had enough and wanted to go home.

Needless to say, the whole thing was not for me and I never went to another frat party. I don't think my roommate did, either.

[hollysmom]

126. I remember frat parties - they kept giving me beer to get me drunk

Beer gets me a high but never drunk, been drinking it since I was 7 with a short break as a teen when my parents suddenly realize it was not a good idea to give kids alcohol. I think I can metabolize it better than wine which gets me rip roaring drunk after a few glasses. On the other hand I have a friend who gets drunk on 2 beers, but can drink anyone under the table with wine which she had with dinner as long as she can remember. So, probably a good thing the frat gave me beer, never got drunk. I think they used to check how bad you were because there were logic questions with the drinking. I love logic puzzles,

There were not that many frats and there were no sororities , so by the next year, I was dating my future husband and did not go near frats at all.

[Warpy]

129. I drank a lot of beer as a kid

because I was lactose intolerant at 5 and my dimwit mother thought I'd die without milk poured into me 3 times a day. If she didn't leave the kitchen long enough for it to go down the sink, I got horrible diarrhea and went on beer or iced tea depending on the meal until I was over it.

She also thought blackberry brandy would cure everything. That went down the sink if possible too.

I suppose that has something to do with my lack of fascination with alcohol. When I was 13, I discovered 4 oz. of beer with lunch or supper didn't do anything but 12 oz. of beer in a paper cup in a sleazy diner had a completely different effect. It was fun for a while but I was over it by 15.

That poor frat guy should have done his research better.

[LeftinOH]

35. It is? You must have intimate knowledge of this to make

such a blanket statement about it. Which one did you belong to?

[Oktober]

38. Are you suggesting that one would have to belong to a subset of a larger group..

.. before being able to have an opinion on it and understanding the concept of the organization?

By that logic you should be required to give your local KKK or NAMBLA charter a go before denouncing it all as bad.

Doesn't even have to be associated with a 'bad' group.

Not a veteran? Keep your opinion about the military to yourself. Not a parent? You should have no say in what goes on in schools.

[mythology]

41. Except the kkk is an organization based on hate

Frats for all their problems aren't. To say they are all disgusting is lazy thinking.

[Oktober]

42. I'm sure they would suggest that they are based on pride and preservation..

As an outsider it is obvious to see isn't true.

The same way Greek life proponents try to play the 'not all frats tolerate rape, purchasing your way into a social system, alcohol abuse or exaggerate the worst parts of the college experience.'

Maybe yours was the golden child of frats and would never eeeeever tolerate such behavior.

I'm sure you can find a KKK group that does trash pickup too. Doesn't mean the concept isn't flawed.

[LeftinOH]

47. The KKK is pretty clear about what they stand for (and against);

and one doesn't need to be a member to know what they are all about. College student societies (which are found at universities around the world) are a general cross section of the student body of the school in question and of the region in which you find it.

The concept isn't flawed, PEOPLE are flawed.

Sometimes being in the right organization can play off the individual strengths of its members.. but sometimes being in the wrong one just makes it worse. Religious denominations are the same way: I've known people whose church-going experience has been so awful (judgmental, condemning, etc.) that they give up on religion altogether. The underlying concept is the same, but the people a particular group make the experience what it is.

Also - lighten up.

[Oktober]

49. Lighten up...

What's the point of getting worked up about organizations that promote sexual assault and alcohol abuse, among a myriad of other things? Ammirite?

[Sheldon Cooper]

53. Wow - you were just told to lighten up.

Unbelievable, isn't it?

[LeftinOH]

58. Except those organizations do NOT promote those things. At all.

That's a drive-by observation from an outsider, again.

There's nothing wrong with getting worked up over the behaviour of some horrible college students; they deserve whatever the law can throw at them. Even their particular chapter should be shut down for allowing it to take place.

There IS something wrong with identifying the type of organization to which they belong as the root cause of their behaviour. Some people are idiots; sometimes idiots find each other and their collective idiocy is intolerable. In college, I tried joining the hiking & mountaineering club. Once they were off campus, civility broke down - it was like spending time with the cast from Deliverance. It didn't have to be like that, but it was... and it had nothing to do with the stated purpose of the club in question.

[RedCappedBandit]

80. Not every greek fraternity promotes sexual assualt.

That is absurd.

There is a problem in Greek life that needs to be fixed NOW. But to extrapolate that all of those involved are in support of sexual assault? No. Absolutely not.

[chervilant]

89. Wow...

I read another of your posts on a different thread and wondered if you were the next candidate for my IL. With this offensive comment, I've gotten clear that you are definitely IL worthy. Bu-Bye.

[Oktober]

90. K...

[NuclearDem]

157. That's rape culture, not the Greek system.

plz2learn the difference.

[NuclearDem]

156. College fraternities and sororities aren't the fucking KKK.

Jesus fucking Christ.

[RedCappedBandit]

30. Incredibly disturbing read.

The school's (lack of) response is jaw dropping..

And I made the mistake of reading the comments. So many people blame her, and if they don't blame her they blame her for not reporting.

[Sheldon Cooper]

32. Read any of the many Cosby threads and you'll see people condemning his accusers for not

reporting the incident(s) at the time. Damned if you do, or don't - seems rape victims can't really win, can they? How convenient.

[progressoid]

36. Awful.

I'm sick to my stomach.

[hedgehog]

45. People have to learn that institutions of all sorts will cover up

the worst crimes. Go straight to the police (and certainly not campus security!) This is not to blame the victims: people trust their institutions and expect justice.

[niyad]

46. k and r. I would say, I think I am going to be ill--but, sadly, what is reported there is nothing

new. where are the guerrilla girls when you need them?

[lark]

48. It's not just UVA, FSU did the same.

They always put the "football team", the "fraternity", the "school" ahead of the young woman. The young woman who reported the rape by Winston was told by the cops, who were sent to her by the university to squash her story, you will pay a steep price if you report this. Your life on compus will be over.

Sickening!

[Jenoch]

51. Reading this Rolling Stone article makes me really angry.

I hope this story helps bring pressure on those frat houses to clean up their acts, but I don't think it will.

I went to a state college where there was not much of a fraternity tradition. I lived across the street from a frat house and one of the idiots there left an electric heater unattended one winter day. While he was at the library, the frat house literally burned to the ground. The firefighters kept it from spreading, but they could not extinguish the fire.

[stevenleser]

52. I know this happens, I just don't understand those folks who treat rape victims like this.

[VA_Jill]

54. Oh, FFS!

My partner is a UVA grad. He was (and is) so far removed from the Frat Rat culture on campus, he might as well have been on another planet. Yes, Virginia, there IS a whole other culture there! He is a gentle soul who would not only have been the first to comfort a young woman (or man, for that matter) who was victimized, he would have encouraged that person to report it and supported him/her throughout the whole process. Rape culture may be present on all campuses, including my own alma mater (UW-Madison) but the hideous Greek culture is NOT the only culture at any of them and I wish people (including the press!) would stop acting as if it is!!!

/rant mode off

[mahatmakanejeeves]

60. University President Teresa Sullivan requests Phi Kappa Psi Investigation

Sullivan requests Phi Kappa Psi Investigation

Student leaders say Rolling Stone article addresses important issue, but fails to fully capture conversation
by Kelly Kaler | Nov 20 2014 | 10 hours ago

University President Teresa Sullivan Wednesday asked the Charlottesville Police Department to investigate an incident of sexual misconduct between a then-first-year student and several members of Phi Kappa Psi fraternity which allegedly occurred in September 2012. The incident was the subject of an article published online Wednesday morning by Rolling Stone Magazine — an article which also detailed numerous other assaults which allegedly took place at the University.

Testimony from now third-year University student Jackie detailed a violent gang rape at the hands of seven Phi Kappa Psi brothers during her first semester on Grounds. It outlines her experiences dealing with the University following the incident, as well as the reactions of her peers and subsequent interactions she had with one of the men involved in her assault.

The article elicited a momentous response from the University community Wednesday — with some highly critical of the University's response to the accusations, others lambasting the Greek community for its apparent fostering of sexual misconduct, and still others criticizing the reporter for her methods and her portrayal of University life.

[niyad]

62. sexual misconduct? what a pleasant little term for gang rape.

[salin]

67. Shameful.

It takes the article being written and published before the University takes real action.

[SoCalDem]

70. The dirty little secret is that sexual misconduct happens at EVERY college

why?

because there is an abundance of young (sexually interested) people, most of whom have never met each other , and there is an air of "freedom" from the prying eyes, questions of parents....

For many of them, this is the FIRST time they have been "on their own", and if they were raised by helicopter parents, they may mistakenly believe that everyone has their best interests at heart, and that they are still the center of the universe.

and of course there is liquor and other mind altering substances.

I fear that many parents may be too squeamish to have a serious fact-filled talk with their kids before they go off to school

[chervilant]

101. One of the first steps we can take

is describing rape as the vicious and violent assault that it is--not 'sexual misconduct,' or any of a plethora of euphemisms that do little to convey the actual life-altering, horrific event.

Also, if you read the article, you'll learn about some opportunistic rapists in a seminal study by David Lisak:

... against that backdrop (eg, colleges and universities), as psychologist David Lisak discovered, lurk undetected predators. Lisak's 2002 groundbreaking study of more than 1,800 college men found that roughly nine out of 10 rapes are committed by serial offenders, who are responsible for an astonishing average of six rapes each. None of the offenders in Lisak's study had ever been reported. Lisak's findings upended general presumptions about campus sexual assault: It implied that most incidents are not bumbling, he-said-she-said miscommunications, but rather deliberate crimes by serial sex offenders.

(emphasis and 'eg,' mine)

Men who rape are RAPISTS, and they should be identified as RAPISTS. Rapists should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

[SoCalDem]

118. whatever you call it, it is (and always has been) pretty common on campuses

at least since 1968, when I was in college..

You need not "explain" rape to me.. I was first raped at 6 years old, and again at 18..

[chervilant]

123. My post herein above

is not "explaining" rape to you. I am advocating that we use the word RAPE when discussing rape, and the word RAPIST when discussing a person who rapes.

[LittleBlue]

61. Her Judas friends are disgusting cowards

"She's gonna be the girl who cried 'rape,' and we'll never be allowed into any frat party again."

They're supposed to be her friends and they sold her down the river for partying. F*ck them!

[mahatmakanejeeves]

63. Ironic but True: Ken Cuccinelli worked to combat sexual assault at UVa

Whatever else you think about him, he was on the right side in this effort.

Give credit where credit is due. From 2013:

Don't Buy Ken Cuccinelli's Latest Ad on Women's Rights

By Molly Redden  @mtredden
August 20, 2013

Ken Cuccinelli, the Republican nominee for governor of Virginia, came out with " target="_blank">a new ad this week touting the efforts he made as a University of Virginia undergraduate to combat campus sexual assault. In the video, Cuccinelli and his wife, Teiro, relate a story told in a Washington Post profile of the attorney general four years ago: One night, he was doing calculus homework when he heard his female roommate’s piercing scream. He rushed to her room, where the burglar trying to sexually assault her was already fleeing out the window. “It became a call to action,” the Post recounted. “He transformed himself into a self-taught campus expert and agitator on the problem of sexual assault.”

On its face, something feels very rich about college Cuccinelli defending the rights of sexual assault victims, when Attorney General Cuccinelli has been accused, probably fairly, of approaching rape with all the sophistication of former Rep. Todd Akin. You can see writers struggling to find something wrong with it. Elspeth Reeve, writing for The Atlantic Wire, says “his narrative simplifies the problem of sexual assault on campus—most assaults aren't perpetrated by random intruders, but by friends or dates.” But that’s being unfair to Cuccinelli. After all, he didn’t choose the “narrative” that brought him to the issue of campus sexual assault—his friend was brutally attacked (“Cuccinelli had never heard a cry so loud and long, so pained and panicked”) and he reacted. And in the wake of his friend’s near-assault—regardless of whether it was representative of most attacks—Cuccinelli’s efforts to prevent rape at the UVA were pretty exemplary. He educated himself about sexual assault statistics. He learned what kinds of resources the university lacked—a sexual assault education coordinator; a student group to raise awareness about the issue—and raised a lot of hackles in order to bring those resources to campus. He spoke and grieved with other survivors. One organization he helped create still exists today to educate students on consent and prevention (ironically, with programming aimed at LGBT students). It’s about the most one could ask of any college student—let alone an undergrad who exemplified the “preppy, careerist, gung-ho U-Va. male,” in the Post’s telling.

[Whiskeytide]

64. So sad that even she still blames herself...

... the last sentence...

"Everything bad in my life now is built around that one bad decision that I made," she says. "All because I went to that stupid party."

Damn. Just damn.

[eppur_se_muova]

68. Remorse and regret are not the same as blame ... nt

[Whiskeytide]

87. You're dead wrong in this...

... context. She may have fully intended to have consensual sex with her date. If she had done so, and later wished she hadn't, that might be remorse or regret. If her date asked her to go up to a room and have sex with him and six of his buddies, and she did that and later wished she hadn't, THAT might be remorse or regret.

What happened was an ambush by predatory assholes who considered her an object. They beat her and raped her repeatedly against her will and by force. Yet she now believes that her actions in going to a private room with her date caused the assault. That is so wound up in "it was my fault" and "if only I hadn't..." that it can't be separated.

[Arkana]

65. Then her "friends" are miserable, selfish shitsacks.

Seriously, if your first thought after your friend gets raped by a bunch of drunk frat dudes is "OH NOES I'LL NEVER GET INTO ANOTHER FRAT PARTY AGAIN", then kill yourself.

[calimary]

97. This. ^^^^^^

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

69. No more invites to frat parties = A fate worse than death. Not talking about rape = Loyalty.

[AverageJoe90]

72. What a damn shame. Is campus life *that* fuckin' important......

that one would forego reporting a friend's victimization......over reputation? Argh. Cowards.

[mahatmakanejeeves]

76. UVa asks police to investigate gang-rape allegations outlined in Rolling Stone article

Hat tip, Fairfax Underground (which could seriously use a moderator): Culture of Rape at UVA profiled in Rolling Stone

UVa asks police to investigate gang-rape allegations outlined in Rolling Stone article

[mahatmakanejeeves]

81. This is not the first time around for that fraternity.

Rape victim returns to UVa

Posted: Friday, March 18, 2011 10:50 pm | Updated: 5:55 pm, Thu Jan 24, 2013.
Sharon C. Fitzgerald

University of Virginia graduate Liz Seccuro said she came full circle on Friday.

Seccuro spoke to a packed audience in UVa’s Newcomb Hall about how her life changed in 1984 when she was raped by fellow university student William Beebe. Investigators have told Seccuro that Beebe was the last of three men to rape her that night after a Phi Kappa Psi fraternity party, but he has been the only one ever prosecuted.

It was in Newcomb Hall all those years ago that Seccuro reported her rape to UVa officials, and she said nothing was done at the time.

More than 20 years later, Beebe sent a letter of apology to Seccuro and it opened those old wounds.

[LynneSin]

83. Why isn't it 'They were the boys who committed rape and that's why we had to ban frat houses'

It pisses me off we aren't thinking like that!!!!

It's a great article from Rolling Stone. But I'm tired of the mentality that we have to teach our girls how not to be raped. Why aren't our men being taught how to not rape women???!!!

There is a simple solution to this and it avoids banning the greeks altogether. I was in a sorority when I was in a college and my closest friends in college where in the greeks. I wouldn't have done it any differently if I went back there again. But our college had guidelines to being in the greeks and one of the smartest things they did was ban the Greek Houses.

The dangerous thing is the houses especially the Frat Houses because these houses create these cultures of rape where there is very little outside influence in preventing this stuff from happening. I had very little problem going to a frat party at my college because our frats (along with our sororities) were on floors within the dorms. And those floors were not exclusive to the greeks. We could not boot off anyone who already had a room on the floor and any room not filled would be available to non-members. There were lounges for the Greeks on the floor but knowing that there were RAs nearby and non-members it was pretty safe to go into them and enjoy the parties.

Ban the Greek Houses, make the Greeks live back in the dorms with supervision. That can help cut down on the issue.

[Tsiyu]

125. That's a fair compromise

I attended a state university. There were no frat houses at that time either. I did not join any sororities ( I didn't graduate, either, but that's another story ) but went to a lot of Greek parties and did not worry about myself or friends.

The '70s were different or our Greek organizations were.

But a prestigious uni local to me has had such an increase of rapes - majority in frat houses - they stopped sending out rape kits and opened their own lab on campus. They, too, have a history of covering up sexual assaults.

So ban any frat house until there is some sort of way to patrol them and hold them accountable for felonious behavior committed on their premises.

Sounds like a fair compromise.

[shaayecanaan]

91. Some eye opening stats in there

for example:-

Lisak's 2002 groundbreaking study of more than 1,800 college men found that roughly nine out of 10 rapes are committed by serial offenders, who are responsible for an astonishing average of six rapes each. None of the offenders in Lisak's study had ever been reported. Lisak's findings upended general presumptions about campus sexual assault: It implied that most incidents are not bumbling, he-said-she-said miscommunications, but rather deliberate crimes by serial sex offenders.

When I was at university, there was a stream of feminist rhetoric that emphasised (without much evidence) that rapists were totally normal, run-of-the-mill guys and that therefore all men were on the cusp of committing rape. Glad to see that better social science is being done since I was at school.

[Starry Messenger]

92. I'm sure I'm wasting my breath, but the point is that the serial sex offenders seem normal.

Like Drew, in the article, did not seem like a threat--she trusted him as a friend. The fact is that *you can never know* who the predators are, because they blend in and seem like run-of-the-mill guys. Until you find out they are not.

[shaayecanaan]

93. I completely agree

Most sociopaths are completely adept at acting like normal people, and particularly at avoiding punishment for their actions by smooth-talking the people in charge. Obviously they must be, in order to get away with raping such a succession of women.

[d_r]

99. Yes

the tricky part, is that they have regular, nice, non-rapist friends who assist them without realizing it. The serial rapist is playing everyone. They are tricking their friends into having parties and getting drunk as cover for them finding victims.

[yardwork]

109. If the rapists all looked like wild eyes villains

We'd be able to spot them.

[cwydro]

104. kick. nt

[markpkessinger]

110. Read this article earlier today . . ..

. . . came away shaking my head, wondering if this girl's "friends" have any moral compass whatsoever.

[freedom fighter jh]

144. This was near the start of Jackie's first year.

People connect real fast in their first weeks of college, because they don't know anyone. Some of these connections become real friendships. Others dry up. One of these "friends" is referred to later in the article as a "former friend."

[BeanMusical]

113. Disgusting pigs!

I'm not a violent person but when I hear or read about horrible things like this I'm imagining the worst things that could happen to those rapists and other predators.

[GummyBearz]

115. Dude

We like came to college to party and rape. What will we do if she exposes this? Like, go to class and learn? That sounds like a lot of work bro. Yea, lets keep it quiet so we can rush, otherwise we wont get to have any fun

[redruddyred]

127. pretty typical tho.

most 20somethings I know are way more interested in social status than social justice.

[Ash_F]

128. How hard can it be to get a criminal conviction with 7 rapists?

There is no way those 7 dumbass fratboys will be able to get their stories straight.

Take each of them in an interrogation room separately. Someone will slip up and crack.

This shit is not hard.

If we want to get equal justice for women, we first need to start replacing all the shitty DA's and police chiefs from the 80's and 90's that are still squatting in office across the nation.

[Helen Borg]

130. Nice best friends she had... :(

[blackspade]

131. School 'loyalty?'

These idiots can fuck off.

WTH is wrong with these people?

[mahatmakanejeeves]

132. Cavalier Daily, Friday. Many links.

University, community members respond to Rolling Stone article

[Spazito]

135. Thanks for posting this...

It is good to see the overwhelming condemnation regarding the University's lack of response to the crime of rape.

[mackerel]

138. I've told all three of my kids that in my opinion it is best to stay away from

Frats & Frat parties all together. I've sited several incidences of the years. I have two girls and one boy. I specifically told my son I didn't want to be part of their rape culture.

[McCamy Taylor]

140. Better yet, attend a college that does not allow frats or sororities. I did.

And Rice was a better place for not having them.

[mackerel]

142. That would be ideal.

[chervilant]

151. Class of '78...

How about you?

(Officially, Jones; unofficially, Sid Rich...)

[iandhr]

150. Kind of chills the bone

[WillyT]

152. HUGE K & R !!! - Thank You !!!

[maced666]

153. A lot of people were fooled. Look really foolish now.

But Rolling Stone most of all. How far has that magazine fallen?
Not worth picking up anymore.