Which matters more to you?

[Ken Burch]

The fact that a cop got away with murdering a black teenager, or the fact that, for whatever reason, some stuff got burned down as people were reacting to the fact that the cop got away with it?

18 votes, 0 passes | Time left: Unlimited
	The cop-getting-away-with-murder thing.
	16 (89%)
	The stuff-getting-burned-down-thing.
	1 (6%)
	Neither
	1 (6%)
	0 DU members did not wish to select any of the options provided.
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[NoJusticeNoPeace]

1. Both were acts of violence against minorities by

Racists

[Hoyt]

2. Probably the murder, otherwise the other would not have happened.

[Sherman A1]

3. Why cannot both matter in your poll?

Both are easily far less than ideal situations.

[Ken Burch]

5. It's a discussion about what matters MOST...human life, or property?

That's another "third rail" in this country.

Obviously, it's not a good thing that anything got burned...and we don't know for sure who or what started the fires.

[Sherman A1]

7. I must disagree

with your "third rail" comment and take exception to it.

Both are important, perhaps to differing degrees, but those burned out (and the voluntarily closed or otherwise unable to operate) businesses many of which were retail, represent people's jobs and hence their livelihoods which in many cases may be hanging on a thin economic thread. Those lives are important too and missing desperately needed work hours for those in the lower economic spectrum due to the unrest or the results of the unrest are certainly of worth.

[Ken Burch]

9. The "third rail" was a general comment.

Most of those condemning the property damage and destruction(and assuming that it was the protestors who caused it)don't care at all about the people working in those businesses(you are an exception, so don't take that personally). For most of them, it's about the American obsession with "property" as some sort of sacred thing in its own right, as(even though this has never been true)a necessary requirement for human freedom and a "guarantor of liberty".

We don't, at this point, KNOW who started the fires(other than the cop car fires, most of which seemed to have been started by a white idiot who showed up from outside for some reason...the guy looked like a police academy cadet to me) and it's just as likely that they were started by tear gas or mis-aimed police incendiaries.

[baldguy]

4. Is property valued more that a life?

[Ken Burch]

6. That's what we're exploring here. n/t.

[Joe Shlabotnik]

13. Its about power.

Money is just the current currency that people understand as a meritocratic way of exchange. Whether its people power, or oligarchies, or weapons, or turf, survival or conquest or whatever: presently the masters tools are safely stowed in his garage tool box right now.

[Iggo]

11. So first a jury voted to leave your post alone...

...and then one of the jurors was nice enough to let you know that your post was alerted on, but was allowed to stand?

Yeah, we totally suck.

[TBF]

14. This is a site for democrats -

Terms of service are very clear: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=termsofservice

[Iggo]

15. Dammit! I missed his reply.

Was it epic or pathetic?

[TBF]

16. I'd file it under pathetic -

"I thought this was a site for freedom of speech" or some such ... I can't remember the exact words. He knew what he was doing.

[Algernon Moncrieff]

17. Both matter for many reasons

The big obvious reason that matters now - the life of a young man was lost unnecessarily.

Long term - Do those burned businesses return, or does Ferguson become a more economically depressed area with less opportunity? After the shooting, its aftermath, the grand jury decision, and its aftermath, how does the community rebuild trust with its police force? Do enough citizens of Ferguson care enough to remove the City Council and Mayor to, in turn, remove the police chief and to, in turn, make their police force accountable to the community? Will insurance companies write insurance that allows burned businesses to return and rebuild?

Michael Brown is gone; the question now is whether Ferguson survives as a community.

[Ken Burch]

18. I didn't say both COULDN'T matter.

The issue was which mattered more to people.

Yes, it would suck if this made life worse in Fergurson(although I'm not sure it could get much worse there if you are black).

But remember, we still don't even know for sure who started the fires. The police and their apologists had their own reasons to see the place burn, and there was also the possibility of plain screw-ups happening.

[Algernon Moncrieff]

19. I'm only saying I won't pick just one

I lived in South Florida before I moved to the frigid Midwest (ass backwards - I realize). I'm familiar with this pattern from somewhat similar events in Miami:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1980_Miami_riots

In the early morning hours of December 17, 1979, police officers pursued 33-year-old McDuffie, who was riding his 1973 black-and-orange Kawasaki motorcycle. McDuffie had accumulated traffic citations and was driving with a suspended license. He led police on an 8-minute high speed chase through residential streets at speeds of 80+ MPH.

The officers involved in the chase (Ira Diggs, William Hanlon, Michael Watts and Alex Marrero) later filed a report claiming McDuffie had run a red light and led police on an eight-minute chase. They said that, after McDuffie had lost control of his vehicle while making a left turn, he attempted to flee on foot but was subdued by the officers. McDuffie was accused of kicking Diggs during the scuffle. By the end of the struggle, the officers had cracked his skull "like an egg", in the words of the prosecutor at the trial.

McDuffie was transported to a nearby hospital, where he died four days later of his wounds. The coroner's report concluded that he had suffered multiple skull fractures

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Airmike3/Miami_Riot_1989

Clement Anthony Lloyd, a 23 year old African American, lived in Overtown, a suburb on Miami. He was known by many in his neighborhood as he drove his “blood-red” Kawasaki Ninja motorcycle through the neighborhood. He was known to ride it mostly for the thrill, rather than for actual transportation. [5]

On January 16, 1989, Lloyd and a friend, Allen Blanchard who was visiting from the Virgin Islands, attended a parade honoring the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. The two left the parade at 5 PM on Lloyd’s motorcycle, heading to the apartment where Blanchard was staying with his older brother, Francis.[6]

According to police reports, Officer John Mervolion spotted the two at 6:05 PM traveling about 60 miles an hour, twice the legal speed limit, southward on Northwest Second Avenue. Officer Mervolion flipped on his lights and began to pursue the two. Lloyd then turned west and then north onto Northwest Third Avenue, speeding away from Officer Mervolion, who had radioed in the chase.[7]

About six blocks ahead, Officer William Lozano was standing behind his parked cruiser with another officer, Dawn Campbell, and a person who was reporting that the registration decal had been stolen from his license plate. Witnesses then said that Officer Lozano looked up, tossed his pen and notebook in his cruiser’s open trunk, drew his service revolver, a 9-millimeter automatic pistol, and stepped out into the street, approximately to the center line. [8] When the motorcycle approached, Officer Lozano fired his weapon at the motorcyclist, striking Lloyd first in the helmet, which the bullet passed through, and then into his left temple, killing him instantly. The motorcycle continued for another 20 to 30 yards, veered out of control, and struck an oncoming car. The force of the impact threw the two men headfirst into the car’s windshield, with Blanchard’s head striking the windshield before the force threw them both back over the car.[9] Witnesses say he (Blanchard) lay conscious in the street, whispering for help. He was taken to Jackson Memorial Hospital, where he died later of head injuries. [10]

Lloyd’s body would lie on the street for more than two hours. Crowds began to gather and began throwing bottles, stones, and insults at Officer Lozano and the other police at the scene. Mayor Xavier Suarez, who arrived soon after, lifted the sheet so that Lloyd’s mother and sister could see the bodies; the Mayor would later apologize for that action, saying it may have helped fuel the riot that followed. [11]

These situations are not identical, but present a similar pattern: police overstep and brutalize; impoverished and powerless African Americans respond with rioting. The Rodney King riots are another obvious parallel.

Do I think agent provocateurs set the fires? No. Do I think that, intentionally or unintentionally, the PTB did everything possible to ensure that the stage was set for such an event? Absolutely! History should have told officials that the early evening timing of the announcement and the dragging out of the announcement were a recipe for failure. IMO, this was done so that the community could "get it out of their system" before "Black Friday" (no pun intended), so that retailing would go on unimpeded in most of greater St. Louis.

Ferguson needs to rebuild. Rebuilding needs to start with exploring the law to see if city officials can be recalled. If so, petitioning and organizing needs to start. Either way, the community needs to find members who will step forward to become the new mayor and city council, and those individuals need to share this vision: fire the police chief; hire a new police chief; require the use of car and body cameras; make police actions subject to the oversight of a community board; and work to ensure that the business district that burned is rebuilt bigger and stronger than ever. None of this -- the unnecessary shooting, the looting, or the rioting, can ever be allowed to happen AGAIN.