Video of Tamir Rice being shot. Holy shit. (not graphic but wtf) ETA youtube link

[uppityperson]

They drove up to him and shot him. Why did they not stop a ways away and talk to him? I do not understand how the fuck they could do that.

Sorry for the ads before the vid but it was what I could find.

http://www.wkyc.com/story/news/local/cleveland/2014/11/26/tamir-rice-shooting-video-released/19530745/

ETA youtube

[samsingh]

1. so i guess the story about how the police tried everything and had no choice

was as much bullshit as some of us believed.

so the police are now doing drive by shootings.

[uppityperson]

2. It is incredible and indeed, very clear wtf happened. what the fuck did they try beyond stop, bam

[samsingh]

37. they executed a 12 year old kid

[ManiacJoe]

38. Was that ever the story in this case?

Cannot say I have ever heard that.

[workinclasszero]

67. You called it

A drive by hit by the police against a black kid with a toy gun.

Instant grounds for murder by police in america!

[Ken Burch]

104. Weirdly, it was a plotline in an episode of CROSSING JORDAN several years ago.

In that episode, the cop who killed the kid hid the fact that the "gun" was a piece of cut-out plastic until after the entire city where the story was set had exploded in riots.

[uponit7771]

3. Looks like the kid went down instantly after the car stopped!!!!

[uppityperson]

5. I read 1 article that says they yelled at him to show his hands 3 times as they drove up but I saw

no time for him to hear and comply. Just shot as they stopped.

[helpmetohelpyou]

39. The cop fired as soon as he stepped out of the car

No question after watching that video

[PeaceNikki]

4. Ugh, that's terrible. Cops who murdered Kajieme Powell had only slightly more interaction.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/08/21/1323407/-Apparently-if-you-ask-St-Louis-cops-to-kill-you-they-will-This-is-a-story-of-cops-gone-wild

Awful.

[uppityperson]

7. Tamir had no chance, no time.

[PeaceNikki]

9. The 911 caller even told dispatch they thought it was fake.

[uppityperson]

10. I edited, added youtube link with a bit afterwards. It is incredible.

[Blue_Tires]

76. I saw in some other story that supposedly the dispatcher didn't mention the "probably fake" part

to the cops...

IF that's true, then the police already have their official "out"

[seabeyond]

78. it is procedure to drive right up on a person that supposedly have the gun, placing partner in the

fire? the cop placed the rooking in a vulnerable position, having the supposed dangerous person steps from him, while he was trapped in the car.

i see no out.

he opens door, steps out, shooting.

[Blue_Tires]

81. I'm not defending it by any stretch, I'm saying that's probably

a valid enough "excuse" for the police to hide behind, and as we've already seen you don't have to do much salesmanship to the public for them to grant cops the benefit of the doubt...

[helpmetohelpyou]

88. Are you in law enforcement or security work?

The only reason I ask is

your arguments in this thread are very tactically valid and thought out.

best in this thread

[seabeyond]

97. No. It is just so obvious. Nt

[Tsiyu]

11. PeaceNikki that original video has haunted me since it happened

I will never, ever, ever forget the face of the cop who shot him and kept shooting, then flipped his lifeless body over and handcuffed him.

I have witnessed a lot of people at the moment they died, from infants, to the elderly, but I will never get over witnessing Kajieme Powell's death.

The look and demeanor of that cop was truly demonic. I have never seen a human with such callous disregard for the death on his hands.

That young man was not a human being to that cop. He was The Enemy.

Whoever that cop is, he has given me the most awful nightmares as he showed the most awful side of himself. I cannot watch it ever again, and I cannot even summon the words for how it truly struck my soul.

Why?

This is what humans are if they want to be cold-blooded and have the power of life and death handed to them by the state. I suppose I am merely stunned that anyone would want to grow up to be like the cops that killed Powell.

The smirk on his face, and the one most recently on the prosecutors face as he gave his plastic sermon, tell me this is all just a sick game that some people will never tire of playing.

THEY are the demons among us.

And we pay them to dance.

[PeaceNikki]

14. Me, too, Tsiyu. Me, too.

It drove me nuts for a lot of reasons, but one that stuck with me was that Powell was well-known for being a neighborhood "eccentric". We ALL have them. We ALL know them... and a cop should know the ones on his beat.


Demons and nightmares, indeed.

Ugh.

[Tsiyu]

18. It makes me feel better knowing I'm not the only one

it just ripped me up, too much to even say anything

Thanks.

[uppityperson]

16. Me too and indeed.

[Tsiyu]

25. Crazy times, uppityperson, it helps that others see it

Cops don't have to be like that. The cops where I live aren't like that.

I've told the story of how one local LEO even changed into street clothes so he wouldn't freak out a guy who was tripping out. It was no big deal to be a human being. If cops started gunning down kids around here, they wouldn't last long.

There is corruption in TN, I know, but there is a regard for people's humanity in the small town cops here ( except the rich part of town, but they just ruin your life in other ways. ) Even the TN troopers have mostly been fair and kind to me, so it shocks me to see a cop just unload a weapon into an obviously mentally unstable person. It smells like cowardice and an evil soul lurk in the cop who threw the dead kid around - the one he just murdered because we let him.

It scares me to see us pay people to be so cold-blooded, to see that my fellow citizens believe a uniform should bestow judge, jury and executioner status on very flawed individuals.

Thanks for your OP, BTW

[seabeyond]

80. the dude that stold soda? that one stays with me too. i should not have watched. and silence.

we do not even talk about that one. a week or two after brown.

[Tsiyu]

90. It's chilling and horrifying

and something tells me the cops responsible may delight in that perception of themselves. To instill fear. Because there is something profoundly wrong with them.

It doesn't have to be this way.

But what you said:

and silence.

sez it all

[avebury]

6. I agree that it makes the cops

look really bad. They made no effort to even try to talk to the kid. I am so fed up with the shoot first don't even bother asking question attitudes of cops. I am horrified with what African Americans go through in this country on a daily basis, not knowing if a family member will come home alive every time they leave the house. I would totally understand if someone shot first as soon as they saw a cop because they would most likely be acting in self defense due to fear for their life.

[Tsiyu]

8. So I guess we have pre-emptive death penalty now

"Just kill 'em all, let Jeebus sort 'em out."

That won't piss anybody off.

[JohLast]

12. I see no problem with the officer's response.

You can see the kid reaching into his waistband as the officers arrive. They were responding to a person with a gun.

[uppityperson]

13. You see no problem with driving up next to someone you think is dangerous? With putting yourself

in the position where you feel endangered? How about stopping a ways away, assessing the situation, maybe talking to him from there?

Is it really an ok response to put yourself in a situation you feel endangered in and then shoot your way out?

[JohLast]

17. I have responded that way several time in my career. not the best way, but it is not uncommon

[cyberswede]

24. Well, if *you've* done it, it must be ok.

He was a 12 year old CHILD.

[Xipe Totec]

28. Then you need to find a different job; one where you won't be a meance to society. nt

[uppityperson]

30. "Not the best way" for sure and unfortunately way too common. Why the fuck put yourself into

danger when you are able to address the situation first?

First thing you are taught responding is to assess the situation, make sure you won't get hurt before going to help. Let's say someone has a live wire over them. Do you run in to help or figure out another way that won't also get you endangered.

Indeed it is way too common and very very wrong. I hope you have learned and quit endangering others by doing that sort of crap.

[JohLast]

36. active shooter response does teach you to run in and adapt as you go.

[helpmetohelpyou]

41. This was not an active shooter call

[uppityperson]

42. This was not a "active shooter" so that has no bearing here. eom

[seabeyond]

45. it was murder.

[GGJohn]

62. This was clearly not an active shooter situation.

[Warren Stupidity]

75. Active Troll response says Please Juries Please ACT!

[GGJohn]

84. Screw the jury, MIRT needs to step in.

[uppityperson]

85. They are probably talking. Here, got this from Sid a while back.

[A Simple Game]

86. If what you say is true, here's a word of advice to you.

Your teacher is a fool, do not listen to him. No first responder, repeat, no first responder should enter a scene without assessing the situation first. You can't help anyone if you get yourself killed, that is the first rule.

Another lesson you should take from this incident, never trust your dispatcher, at best they are giving you 3nd hand information, first from what could be an outright liar or a person interpreting a situation incorrectly, and second from a 911 operator who may embellish, downplay, or leave out pertinent information. And third from the dispatcher themselves who may leave out important information or emphasize unimportant parts. If you are given the correct location you should consider yourself lucky and trust nothing else to be true.

The two in this video don't appear to assess the situation first and an Innocent 12 year old pays the ultimate price.

And how do you get active shooter from this video?

I was leaning toward giving the cops the benefit of the doubt when I read about this incident, after seeing the video they should be in jail if for nothing more than to protect them from and the rest of us from their stupidity, and if they have the same instructor you have he should be in the cell beside them.

[NYC_SKP]

129. Spot on.

Not an active shooter situation, and not the brightest cops, rolling in like that.

In the audio, the shooter (cop) describes the kid as about 20 years old, refers to the toy gun as a revolver.

Talk about green.

They shouldn't have been out without a veteran calling the shots.

And, spot on about third hand info from the dispatcher.

[uppityperson]

32. You need a different career, if you continue to endanger the public and yourself.

[BronxBoy]

53. He has one..,,

According to him, he's TEACHING at the academy now

[uppityperson]

55. Which explains why rookies do things like this.

I think I will quit feeding him before I say something bad.

[seabeyond]

57. the reality is, it is the higher ups, that are failing the cops on the street.

not giving them a clear line to walk. making excuses and justifying, flat out murder. even illegally changing stories and providing false evidence, (per brown case) to excuse clearly failed behavior on the part of the cops.

[BronxBoy]

59. Yep....

Interesting how the irony is lost on the poster

[seabeyond]

44. it totally lacks any kind of professionalism. so if you have done it, it is YOUR fail, NOT

the kids.

the experiences cop put his rookie partner is the face of potential danger, and left him vulnerable.

you own up to that? that would be your fail

[Logical]

89. Oh FFS, of course you don't have an issue with this. You have to defend your brothers. nt

[GGJohn]

92. HA, after seeing that damning video, even I've changed my mind,

that kid was executed and the cops need to face charges, but after the Wilson debacle, I'm not holding my breath.

[Warren Stupidity]

100. good for you. There is no doubt on this one, it was an execution.

[helpmetohelpyou]

101. I'm glad you did , we were in the same thread where we were talking about

how an airsoft BB gun can look real but after watching this video
it's plain to see they handed out a death sentence to this child.

[Number23]

124. Wow. I'm surprised. That's really surprising

[GGJohn]

143. Why would you be surprised?

I said several times that if the video showed something different than what the cops story was, I would change my mind.
Now that I've seen the video, I've changed my mind, it sure looks like an execution.

[herding cats]

121. No "shots" were fired.

But, you know that in this case. If they had been they'd have known it wasn't a real gun. Just like the untrained 911 caller said it probably wasn't. Funny that, huh?

I'm not buying what you're selling. Why do people insist on doing crap like this on the internet? It makes zero sense and only makes them look silly? I'll never understand the reasoning behind stuff like this.

A kid died for no real reason other than lots of different people being stupid and some reacting really stupidly. It's a tragedy. It is what it is and that's the reality of things. The people who shot at him get to know for the rest of their lives they killed a kid for no real reason. They can either adjust their hate levels to manage or they can evolve into better people in the future. They still killed a kid for no real reason, and nothing changes that.

[RedCappedBandit]

169. fucking lol

[JohLast]

35. yup. that is how we all do it. I used go to work looking for someone to shoot.

[uppityperson]

43. Thank you for clarifying that is what you meant and that you are part of the problem. eom

[Hissyspit]

49. Would they have done the same if it was a white kid?

My understanding is they were told the gun may be fake by the caller.

You can't think of any other way they couldn't handle this to get a different outcome?

How do British police manage to handle situations like this?

This was a shitty response.

[GGJohn]

66. Unfortunately, that info wasn't passed on to the responding officers.

But after watching the video, I'm not sure if it would have changed the outcome.

[Hissyspit]

72. Oh, good.

Incompetence all around.

[GGJohn]

73. Also, supposedly, the dispatcher asked if the subject was black or white,

not what's the description, but is he black or white.
If true, that's pretty damning.

[caraher]

174. She did

I heard the audio - the caller started to describe the boy, and the dispatcher asked three times, "Is he black or white?" This is about 1:00 in...

[Ino]

136. I can't fucking believe you're laughing.

[X_Digger]

130. Can you talk with someone from a distance that they can't shoot you? Sorry, but that's illogical.

Effective targeted range of a handgun is about 30 yards- what kind of conversation can you have with someone from 30 yards away?

And if a person started shooting others nearby while the cops were waiting out of gunshot distance, what do you think the community response would be?

We pay police to put themselves in dangerous situations- from stopping moving violations to apprehending suspects, to stopping crimes in progress. You can't have it both ways.

[seabeyond]

131. if they are so very fuggin dangerous, you do not drive so close they have a straight shot at the cop

while he is still sittin in the fuckin car.

[uppityperson]

134. Yet police often set up a distance away from problems rather than in the midst

Especially people with guns. There is this piece of equipment they have called a loud speaker which is capable of being heard some distance away. I did not know it was such an uncommon thing that you have never heard of it. Odd.

This child had less than2 seconds to comprehend what was about from a car driving up before he was shot. They had plenty of other options .

[X_Digger]

135. Conversation involves two parties speaking to each other, no? Try reading the post.

Do these magical bullhorns also give cops super-hearing, able to converse with someone 30 yards away?

And actually, we pay police to run *toward* gunshots.

Funny that nobody's mentioned it yet, but that video is not at 30 frames per second- this is a video recording of someone watching security footage that records at something other than real-time (many security cameras with limited storage capture one frame a second, or a frame every couple of seconds.) You can see from the way everyone involved 'jumps' between frames.

[uppityperson]

137. Driving up next to someone you suspect has a gun and may shoot like he did endangers the

person in the passenger seat as well as the driver. This is why it is common to stop a bit away rather than driving up right next to the person. Can you not see how the driver endangered his partner? Or do you think the door of a police car magically stops bullets?

[Oktober]

140. If the threat is perceived to be real...

... To everyone in the area in addition to the trooper then waiting him out may not be an option.

[uppityperson]

146. Are you serious? Have you ever seen a hostage situation, or police pull up a distance from someone

to assess the situation and talk with them? Go in fast, guns ablazing is what you are advocating. Pulling up within feet of this boy like he did exposed that rookie to extreme risk if there was actually a threat. Stop a bit away and yell from behind the car, not pull up next to and yell out the window. If that boy had been someone with a gun ready to shoot those cops would've been dead so fast.

[Oktober]

149. Which is why the flash to bang was so short...

You answered your own question..

[uppityperson]

151. Which brings us back to why did they drive up so close and put themselves in danger?

A cop puts himself and his partner in danger rather than taking time to assess the situation from a safe place so they feel their only way to get out of danger is to shoot the child.

The problem I see is the cop driving up too close too fast and it was his fault for putting them in a potentially dangerous situation.

[PAProgressive28]

15. person with a gun

[img][/img]

[Rex]

20. But but but...the cops fled that particular area post haste.

They didn't want to endanger the people around him. So you can see the two total different standards at work here.

[Tsiyu]

27. Well, if that Bridge Brigade, Gun-Totitn' Teabagging Hero had only been twelve years old

and had his frickin' gun sights on law enforcement officers, he would have had to die. Instantly. No questions. A cop would have driven on to that bridge and taken him out.

But he was all growed up and **coughwhitecough**, so we let him keep pointing his weapon all free and happy.

What a fucking world we live in.....

[Xipe Totec]

21. Would you see a problem if it was your child?

[SomethingFishy]

31. Of course you don't

They were responding to a 911 call of a kid waving a "probably fake gun" around. Read the story, the 911 caller told the dispatcher the gun was probably fake.

Also the cop claimed he told the kid 3 times to drop his weapon... when? When they were down the street?

[tblue37]

40. IF the cops were telling the truth about yelling at him to "Drop the weapon!,"

then the kid--a 12-year-old CHILD--might well have been trying to obey the adult with a badge who was telling him to drop the weapon.

If he heard, "Drop the weapon!," but the weapon was in his waistband, he would naturally reach to pull it out of his waistband in order to obey the forcefully shouted order.

[GGJohn]

48. I'm sorry but I do see a HUGE problem with this shooting.

I was one of the few saying that according to all the available evidence at the time, this sounded like a justifiable shooting given that that airsoft gun looked very real, I also said that if the video showed different than what the officer's story was, I would change my mind.

Well guess what?

I've changed my mind after seeing this video, that kid was never given a chance to obey any commands the cops MAY have given him and judging by the time they pulled and the time that 12 yo was shot, I highly doubt that they gave any commands.

In short, I now believe that this child was basically executed and the cops need to be charged with...........?

[uppityperson]

50. That is how my opinion went also. I thought it might have been justified from seeing the gun, but

afer seeing the video? No, it wasn't. they drove up next to him, endangering themselves, gave him no time to obey.

[seabeyond]

52. i am with you two. doesnt take much, but watching the video, to know it was flat out murder. nt

[GGJohn]

58. You and I and a couple of others were taking alot of flack for our view of this shooting,

but we did maintain that if the video didn't match the cops story, we would change our minds, as we have now done.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

63. I'll say it. You're a racist.

After reading your claim, I watched the first 15 seconds of the video over and over on a large monitor. His right hand goes below the level his white shirt, and about one second later, he's dead. As he was being murdered, his right hand is not distinguishable from his pants in the video. For you to say that this was justified when a) he was 12 years old and b) he had no time to do anything at all, and c) you absolutely cannot tell if he is reaching in his waistband or not, well, these things make you a racist.

And since my post will certainly be alerted on, and since I've had hides in the past where I had partially pulled my punch in an attempt to keep the post from being hidden, I want to make sure and not make that mistake again. If this post is subject to a hide, then let's do it right. Without further ado, Fuck you, you right-wing, racist authoritarian-licking piece of filth. I detest people who possess your lack of character, your fear-based hatred, and your desire to see dead minority children. I'll take my hide now, Zippy. Get alerting.

[seabeyond]

69. and supposedly he is the one teaching our young rookie cops. and sending them out to do the bidding.

says a hell of a lot to be able to make that statement, here, on a progressive board.

[uppityperson]

70. Good rant, exactly. And he is teaching rookies to make those same mistakes.

[cyberswede]

116. Assuming he really is an academy instructor.

I see no evidence thereof.

[Gormy Cuss]

87. I do. It was shoot first, ask questions later.

A cop's job isn't that.

[Recursion]

113. THE OFFICER'S JOB IS TO DE-ESCALATE THE SITUATION

I'm getting absolutely sick of this bullshit. The officer has the training, equipment, and legal protection he does so that he can de-escalate situations NOT SO HE CAN DO A FUCKING DRIVE-BY SHOOTING OF A KID IN A PARK.

[uppityperson]

147. Not according to too many. The officer's job was to kill the person before they hurt anyone else.

And if the person was not a threat? Well, too bad, just another kid messing around in a park and let's show the gun but not the video so people will think it was a justified shooting.

I wish that was what they did, what they were supposed to do, but too often they do not believe that is their job, de-escalate the situation.

De-escalation? That takes time and work and is old school policing.

[noiretextatique]

163. bullshit. they shot him in 1.5 seconds

they didn't have time to see anything.

[Rex]

19. It is strange that they did not even ask if it was a toy gun or not.

Just got out and executed a 12 year old. But he had a realistic looking toy gun and since guns are like gods to some people...his death will be justified by the NRA crowd.

[cyberswede]

22. I feel sick.

[B2G]

23. Wow. That's totally damning. nt

[MrScorpio]

26. Shoot first, shoot second, shoot some more, don't worry about asking any questions. nt

[SomethingFishy]

29. The 911 caller told the dispatcher that the gun was probably fake...

but the dispatcher did not relay that to the responding car.

It looks to me like the cop came out shooting, no questions, no commands, and there was certainly not time to tell the kid to drop his gun 3 times as the cop claimed...

There are no more words.

[alcibiades_mystery]

33. You can see why the police and cop fetishists

Were working overtime to preemptively block any possible notion that there was anything at all wrong with this shooting. They were in a virtual frenzy about it. Now they will inundate this thread with their so-called "experience" insisting that you can't have any judgment about what you're seeing unless you have their extensive "traaaaaaaaaaiiinnnnnning." If this numbskullery is what their extensive and expensive training produces, then we're all getting ripped off. They will try to convince us that what you're seeing is the only possible action in such cases, when everybody with two working brain cells can tell that these two cops chose about the stupidest course of action a person could take given the circumstances.

[uppityperson]

34. Training 101. Assess the situation and do not put yourself in unneeded danger, like driving next to

someone you suspect has a gun. Or running up to someone you think has a knife.

Seriously. This video is damning and damn to those who are supporting this.

[WolverineDG]

46. Here's what gets me

I heard a description of the video on Ronan Farrow's show today. To paraphrase, the kid was "wandering aimlessly" around the park. Uh no, he was PLAYING.

And the cops roll up & shoot him. No confrontation, no time for the kid to react (because he's playing & in his own world). Just :bang: he's dead.

A white kid doing the same thing would still be alive. Heck, they might not even call the cops.

[seabeyond]

47. what gets me, is the experience cop pulls up right next to the kid, potentially dangerous, leaving

his rookie partner in a terribly vulnerable position. i blame the "experienced" cop more than the rookie.

it is bullshit and he was the one that caused it all to happen. it was his fail and everyone gets the blame but him

[BronxBoy]

61. That's a good point..:

[helpmetohelpyou]

51. Another question I have is the original news statement the cops made the day of the shooting.

They stated they saw the gun on the table and when they pulled up he put it in his waistband.
They say they saw him put it in his waistband. Were they parked somewhere watching him before driving up?


Can you tell that from that video? Is the gun on the table and when he gets up does he put it in his waistband?

I can't tell

[uppityperson]

56. First reports are often in error. But if they said they saw him put it away, why'd they shoot?

From what I have read though, they didn't watch him, just drove up too close and shot him.

[helpmetohelpyou]

60. readt this

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2014/11/12-year-old_boy_shot_by_clevel.html

This was before the child's name was released



Cleveland Police Patrolmen's Association president Jeff Follmer said.

The rookie officer saw the boy at a park bench pick up what looked like a gun and placed it in his waistband, Follmer said

[seabeyond]

64. and the video shows otherwise. he stepped out of car, and shot. that article in no way corresponds

to what our eyes show us.

[helpmetohelpyou]

65. I know

[uppityperson]

68. "The officer ordered the boy to put his hands in the air." Where, when, did he do that?

The reports I read said they told him 3 times. I would like it shown where in the video there was time for them to do that and for him to comply.

[helpmetohelpyou]

71. The cop shot him as soon as his feet were planted on the ground

I don't think there was enough time to even give the first command never mind giving 3

[Trekologer]

95. handsuphandsuphandsup... BAM

There you go, three times.

[seabeyond]

96. Ya but, two were while opening door and drawing gun with window up, third

As he pulled trigger and placed foot on ground. He could not have even said the three your way while already out of car. Would have to start as he goes for door handle drawing gun

[ctaylors6]

54. so many tragic, preventable parts of this story

Rookie cop - lack of training and experience clearly an issue. With a training cop.

Gun that looks so real. I know some have argued about exactly how real it looks to their trained eyes, but still it looks real. Why was the orange tip gone? Why are toy guns made like that? Where did he get a toy gun that looks like that? Who thinks it's okay for a 12 year old to have such a real looking gun?

And don't get me started on the dispatcher. The dispatcher doesn't say anything about the gun maybe not being real or that it might be a child, even though the 911 caller said both of those things to her. The dispatcher said, “I’ve got a code 1, if anybody can break at Cudell. In the park by the youth center, there’s supposed to be a male sitting on the swings, pointing a gun at people." Then gives detailed description of clothes a few times.

So unbelievably tragic.

At least the Cleveland police department seems to be acting with great transparency.

[TheKentuckian]

93. What the fuck ever! We had all kinds of toy guns with no fucking orange tips

and no fake as Dirty Harry wannabes blasted us on site and if they did there wouldn't be excuse making and hand wringing for it.

They rolled up and blasted that child is the tragedy.

[ctaylors6]

102. Just because

the cops were completely in the wrong, doesn't mean changing something else in the string of events wouldn't have possibly prevented this horrible outcome.

With all my heart, I wish kids could play with real looking guns in a city park and not risk something like this. But to say that such realistic looking toy guns do not raise the possibility of a tragedy is to ignore two similar, awful tragedies that have now actually happened in a short time period in the very same state. And no one can change my mind about this. I simply don't think it's a good idea for guns given to children as toys to look anything like real hand guns.

Maybe it's just that my life experience has been different than yours.

[TheKentuckian]

105. My background is to deal with root cause rather than sift the sands for excuses

to limit or eliminate the culpability of the completely wrong.

My background also says to eliminate existential threats with extreme prejudice not rationalize on such a threats behalf.

To sit here and watch as those fucking stormtroopers rolled up and just blast that kid to be blabbering on about some silly shit is staggering. It was so quick that it is a bit of a stretch to pretend such a detail would have made the slightest difference. They were so ready to waste somebody that the kid could have had a stick or fuck that NOTHING and still been shot down.

The problem is the motherfucking police, the institutions that control them, and the well heeled they benefit not colored tips, not video games, not gangsta rap, or violence on TV, or whatever lame cop out but the cops.

[Warren Stupidity]

74. Jesus f'ing christ.

I thought the shooting was fucked from the start. I never for one minute thought it was as totally fucked as that.

I give the fuck up on America.

Go ahead justify that shit.

[helpmetohelpyou]

77. The scary thing is the only DU member justifying it is a cop

They don't see any problem in how this child was gunned down

There's so much I would like to say to that member but out of respect for this board and
all the other members I won't

Right now I'm fuming over what I would like to say.

[Warren Stupidity]

79. that is not a cop. That is a troll playing a cop in the internets.

there is a big difference.

[helpmetohelpyou]

83. So he's just a jackass trying to get a rise from us

[TheKentuckian]

94. Sounds like a fucking swine to me.

[LittleBlue]

82. How awful, all over a BB gun. Trigger-happy rookie officer responds to gun call

Kid reaches into his pants, rookie officer overreacts.

No way will he get charged with murder, though. The child reaching into his pants gets him off the hook.

[Takket]

91. wow.....

that looks like straight up murder to me. I don't know how they can say they yelled at him, the car zips right up next to him and the kid is dead pretty much in the next frame.

was the standard procedure for approaching a person with a weapon followed? are the cops supposed to drive right up beside you and jump right out of the car next to you?

if the kid was going into his pants for the gun either to point it at them or drop it... I guess we'll never know. don't you think they could have stopped 20, 30 yards away in their car and demand he lay down on the ground or something?

[W_HAMILTON]

98. So, that's what, two black people with BB guns killed in OH in the past few months?

The black guy that was killed in Walmart, carrying a BB gun that he had just purchased, was also from Ohio, I believe. And Ohio is an open carry state, so you can get away carrying a real gun out in public, yet these two get killed because of their BB guns? Ridiculous.

[seabeyond]

99. the walmart one is just heart breaking. he was totally clueless, minding his own business...

just walking thru the store talking to gf on a phone.
and still... and again... silence.

[uppityperson]

110. That one I do not understand either. Did the guy who called it in, lied, ever get in trouble

for doing so? much less the cops for just shooting him?

[seabeyond]

117. no he was not indicted. here is a good article on it. then below that story is one on the liar.

the family is looking to go after him, it appears.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/24/surveillance-video-walmart-shooting-john-crawford-police


'It was a crank call': family seeks action against 911 caller in Walmart shooting

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/26/walmart-ohio-shooting-charges-911-calller-john-crawford

[uppityperson]

118. A telling line from the first link...

One month later, Ritchie shared with his friends a story from the Tea Party News Network

From the second comes this...

As customers screamed and scrambled for the exits, Angela Williams, who had a heart condition, went into cardiac arrest and later died.

“All I can say about this case is that it’s a tragedy,” said Piepmeier on Wednesday. “It’s a tragedy for the Crawford family, it’s a tragedy for the family of Angela Williams, who died because of all the stress and commotion from this, and it’s also a tragedy for the police officers who have to live the rest of their lives knowing that even though they had a justified use of force, they took the life of someone that didn’t need to die.”

A tragedy for everyone but RICTCHIE THE LIAR fucking asshole

[seabeyond]

120. A tragedy for everyone but RICTCHIE THE LIAR fucking asshole

that was my take. he fed and escalated the whole thing, all the way thru.

[uppityperson]

122. I try to not use that language but sometimes it fits. And jurors, that is NOT against a DUer but the

person who called in the false report, knowing it was false, and ended up getting 2 people dead.

[seabeyond]

125. oh. i think it obvious you are talking about the guy that actually caused the deaths.

i would not put it out there, if i thought it might get you a hide.

but, i had not really read that part of the story. i had only heard that he had lied. i had no idea it was to that extent

[TheKentuckian]

167. The lying asshole in no way absolves or even slightly mitigates the crime of murder there.

The folks pulling their triggers are ultimately culpable, way beyond recklessness.

[Number23]

126. The last words that guy said to those fucking cops were "it's not real"

They killed him anyway.

[seabeyond]

127. really? i had linked to a couple stories further in this subthread.

i do not believe they stated the man said anything. too sad. this story has stayed with me.

[Number23]

132. Article

LeeCee Johnson, the mother of Crawford’s children, told the Dayton Daily News she was on the phone with him while he was browsing in the store. “We was just talking,” she told the Ohio newspaper. “He said he was at the video games playing videos and he went over there by the toy section where the toy guns were. And the next thing I know, he said ‘It’s not real,’ and the police start shooting and they said ‘Get on the ground,’ but he was already on the ground because they had shot him. And I could hear him just crying and screaming. I feel like they shot him down like he was not even human.”

http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/cops-shoot-and-kill-man-holding-toy-gun-walmart

[seabeyond]

133. thank you for posting this. nt

[TheKentuckian]

168. If it was real there would still be not even an iota of justification. We have a constitutional

right to keep and bear arms in this country and so such an action should result in a conviction for violating the victim's civil rights along with an indictment for at least 2nd degree murder.

[W T F]

103. Something to wrap your head around

This is how police deal with an old white guy with a gun.

This is how police deal with a group of white guys who open carry at Starbucks.

&spfreload=10

but police deal with a 12 year old black child with a toy gun and shoot him to death with no interest in assessing any possible threat, they immediately and callously shoot the child to death. What's wrong here?

HELLO!!!!! If there any question that cops are racist, then please explain why the double standard.

[sarisataka]

106. I feel like we have had a bait and switch

I previously stated I could understand mistaking a bb for real and even a child being shot as a result. I still stand by that.

In rhis case the picture we were given does not match what is seen on the video.

The police forced the encounter at close range. There was no room for error, mediation or mitigation. After watching and timing how rapidly the actions happened I have serious doubt there was any communication.

This is definitely not a justified shooting.

[uppityperson]

107. "The police forced the encounter at close range" is exactly what I see.

It really reminds me of John Williams getting shot by Seattle cops for carrying a closed, legal pocketknife when the idiot cop ran up too close and decided he felt threatened when MrWilliams turned to see who was yelling.

Way not justified.

[sarisataka]

108. The most damning part

Is Tamir's action and body language.

He probably knew exactly why a police car was pulling up. He would have been thinking how to talk his way out of having a BB gun maybe bluff not even having it.

His posture is one of cooperation.

In return the cops just needed to stop short of him a little distance, even step out with a gun in hand, and say Don't move, just talk. Son, do you have a gun on you?"

Dialogue would then be open, a 12 year old might be in line for a serious ass chewing and a family would have their little boy at Thanksgiving dinner.

[joshcryer]

112. Someone on FB called it a "drive by."

Drive and park by, technically, but drive by is what it really was.

[morningfog]

128. Cops lie. Especially after killing people.

[joshcryer]

111. Can we please get a fucking indictment for once?

[uppityperson]

114. But he was scared because the young man with the gun was so close to him he had to shoot him

I wonder what went through the rookie's mind when he finally noticed it was a little kid. I wonder why the hell they felt their only option was to drive up next to him yelling.

Before I saw this video, I thought it was justified, based on what the bb gun looked like. After seeing how fast they shot him? Hell no.

[seabeyond]

115. watching the video, it looked like the rookie's legs were going to give out on him.

seemed he was having trouble even fuckin standing. leaning up against the car and all.

[dionysus]

152. the way he scrambled away on his ass then ran behind the car, he looked scared shitless. just awful.

there should be hell to pay.

[joshcryer]

119. It is unbelievable.

Can you even say "put your hands up!" in 1.5-2 seconds? Can you even say "drop the weapon!" in that period of time? Can you even be heard over the engine of the vehicle and the rapid stop that it came to?

It is beyond absurd.

[uppityperson]

148. It is not long enough to hear and respond.

it is beyond absurd

[TheKentuckian]

165. I don't even get that logic. It isn't illegal to have a gun, even a real one so on what basis

would a shooting be justifiable?

We have open carry in many parts of the nation, this does not give a fucking pig the right to just start popping shots and if the person is white, male, and long in the tooth they tend to support rather than to blast.

You need to give up the privileged position set up for authority figures in your mind.

[uppityperson]

166. me either. eom

[herding cats]

123. Don't hold your breath.

It doesn't happen. They still killed the kid for no damn good reason, but that's apparently covered if you're a cop, or in a SYG state and can come up with a reason why you feel threatened now days.

One nation, lead by fear, divisible with no justice for most. It's who we are now.

[joshcryer]

142. Yep.

[TorchTheWitch]

138. what is it that I'm supposed to be seeing in this video?

I can't even see where the kid is once the car pulls up.

Why didn't they stop a distance away and talk to him? You willing to take that risk? There is no talking with anyone that has a gun in their hand pointed at you or anyone else. There's no time to wonder if it's a real gun or if the gun is loaded, etc. This gun looked for all the world as a real gun. It had no bright orange tip at the end of the barrel to signify it was a toy that was incapable of firing anything. The only thing to say is "Drop it!" and only if the gun isn't drawn or pointed at anyone and if you're behind cover. If it is drawn or pointed at anyone than there's no time to say anything because it takes only a split second for a trigger pull and someone being shot.

From what I understand of what happened the did didn't drop the gun or put his hands up or whatever it was he was ordered to do to render the gun harmless. Immediate compliance is paramount. It is too great a risk to allow someone with a gun to contemplate what they were just ordered to do because that's how fucking dangerous guns are, and it's even more dangerous when in the hands of a child who has no comprehension of that danger or that there's no way to know that it's a toy, etc. Supposedly, the kid reached for the gun instead of putting his hands up. Maybe he was trying to show them that it wasn't real. Who knows what he was thinking. But the police CANNOT take the risk that the gun is NOT real, and anyone that doesn't put their hands up as ordered and reaches for the gun signifies only one thing - it doesn't matter why they aren't complying or why they're reaching for that gun, it MUST be assumed the gun is real and in reaching for it the intent is to draw and shoot it.

Now, if that is what happened - the kid didn't comply with orders to put his hands in the air and actually reached for the gun - than the shooting was justified because it cannot be known if the gun is real or not.

This kid is dead because his idiot parents bought him a gun that looked for all the world as a real gun. They allowed him to go about in public with this gun without adult supervision and didn't teach him the proper handling of it so as not to frighten people into thinking that it's real. They didn't teach him to immediately comply with police orders if they tell you to put your hands up or drop the gun or whatever. And it wouldn't have mattered if they had taught him all that anyway because at his age he is a CHILD without the maturity to understand the importance of handling a gun a certain way, immediate compliance with police orders when he had the gun and that they allowed him to go about unsupervised with it in public.

Kids FAR younger than this one kill and injure others with guns every day and twice on Sundays because of the epic stupidity of people putting their children in harms way by allowing their real guns to get into a child's hands. The age of this child didn't make him less dangerous if the gun was real but MORE dangerous because he's a child with no appreciation of how to properly handle a gun whether fake or real and the importance of not putting themselves or others at risk believing the gun IS real.

The police have NO CHOICE but to treat a gun that is not obviously a toy that has a bright orange tip as a real gun because it MIGHT be, and MIGHT be is far too great a risk to themselves and anyone else in the vicinity.

This poor child is dead because his stupid fucking parents bought him a toy gun that looked to all the world as real and let him loose on the world with it. They may as well have just shot him themselves or tied him to train tracks since it was inevitable that a time would come where he would be in just this same position.

This is NOT a police problem, it is a GUN problem in a country that has such woefully lax gun laws and allows epically stupid people to not only have them themselves but to put them in the hands of their immature children and even someone ELSE'S immature children.

Even our toy gun laws are pitiful. Toy guns are required to have a bright orange tip, yet that tip can be broken off or disguised, and they aren't classified as toys at all and not required to have that bright orange tip if they fire ANY kind of projectile. So every gun that fires BB's or air or SOMETHING is allowed to and IS manufactured to appear as an exact replica of a real bullet firing gun because that's what the stupid public wants. And the stupid public calls them toys and treats them as toys having no clue that putting such a thing into the hands of a child is like putting a target on their back. ANY gun that does not have the bright orange tip on the end of the barrel CANNOT be treated as a toy because the results are just what happened to this kid.

Again, this is NOT a police problem because the police have NO CHOICE but to treat any gun that MIGHT be real as real. It is a GUN problem and far more so a gun law problem including toy guns and guns that fire something other than bullets and worse a stupid public problem that is practically TAUGHT to believe that guns are cool, they're fun, they make you feel powerful and that's more important than peoples' lives - even the lives of children.

[bravenak]

139. Here you go with this bullshit again.

The kid had less than 3 seconds to react. He never got a chance to pull anything out of his pants because he was shot as soon as the officer pulled up. The officer never actually saw what the boy had in his waistband because he never got close enough to look or gave the kid enough if acchance to comply. Nobody can comply instantaneously, and when someone pulls up on a person that fast it STARTLES them. A 12 year old child should be given more than 3 seconed to comply with an officer's request.

I find it strange you never seem to have a problem with a officer shooting a young black male. Every time you have completely defended the officer and blamed the boy and or his family for the death cause by the bullet fired from a cop's gun. Every time.

This IS MOST CERTAINLY A POLICE PROBLEM. More and more people realize it everyday, and none of your pathetic attempts to explain away the excessive use of force by police on young black men is going to change the fact that WE HAVE A POLICE VIOLENCE PROBLEM.

So, you can continue to write your stupid little daitribes but it is not effective and it is obsenely debiod of any empathy for the lives of young black men in America being stolen from the by our racist policing agengies. So full of it you are. Ta ta!

[TorchTheWitch]

141. Oh you again

Tired of your stalking. Trying to put false words in my mouth was bad enough.

>>>CLICK<<<

[bravenak]

144. Stalking. Yeah right.

You troll cop-shooting threads to blame the kids and their parents for being murdered. You damn straight I'm going to respond to your ass. I will not let you get away with your little fantasy bullshit.
You ought to be ashamed for your lack of empathy, but just like a conservative, you blame the victim and post little selfish ass diatribes supporting the killing of black youth. You may not respect the value of their lives, but I do. No more letting selfish ass people control the narrative by blaming black boys for getting murdered. You are on notice. Every time you blame a child for being shot down like a dog in the streets by a Police Thug, I'm going to respond and demolish your posts.

You do have the option of not posting bullshit. That always works to stop me from responding.

[JustAnotherGen]

173. I don't understand

Why someone who has no empathy would continue - kwim?

Just say - I have empathy and move on.

I can't relate to the gun problem pov that just rips people a new one for owning a gun. All I know is my husband doesn't go around shooting black people.

[Number23]

155. From where I'm sitting, the cop shot this child almost BEFORE THE DAMNED CAR HAD COME TO A STOP

The cop driving barely had time to put the car in park before the child was on the ground. So all of this "he didn't comply with the officers' orders and he had time" is just complete and utter bullshit.

And for anyone, ANYONE to be excusing this shows their own lack of soul, spirit and character.

[bravenak]

156. True that!!

I was surprised at the high level of surety of her claims that the child did not comply. The child never had time to process what the hell was going on. It was a drive up shooting. Like a bunch of gangsters.

[Number23]

157. Noire has taken to calling the folks 'splaining and supporting this heinous crime "ghouls"

and I think that is perfectly accurate.

[bravenak]

158. It definately is.

It's disgusting and needs to be called out everytime. If feelings get hurt, so what. Kids are dying and these people care more about the protests inconveniencing them. Fuck that.

[GGJohn]

159. Me and you went toe to toe the other day on this subject,

and now that I've seen the video, you are correct and my mind has changed, as I said it would if the video showed something different than what the cops story initially was, I now think this child wasn't given a chance to comply and was executed.

[Number23]

160. I'm still surprised by your change of heart. But pleasantly so

[GGJohn]

161. My change of heart stems for actually seeing the video,

this was an execution, plain and simple.

[TheKentuckian]

170. I'm less impressed. If there was no video, they'd just automatically believe the pig.

The default position is a privileged perspective for the "authority" figure.

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

164. I wish that attitude was unique or rare, but it would appear the United States has an almost

irreversible problem of racism that only those in power can solve.

And no, Obama is not in power, if he was, he wouldnt be so careful NOT to incite those who are when he talks about the endless and needless slaughter of African American youth in America.

I wish President Obama had come right out and said, in regards to Ferguson, that justice was not served (but I know why he cant)

As to this 12 yr old with a toy gun, I guess we need to add this to the list, African American males under the age of 25 and over the age of 9, must never:

play with toy guns
listen to loud music in their cars
wear hoodies
eat skittles
walk down a street
run down a street
jaywalk on a street
talk back to a policeman


Did I forget something, so far it would appear above are all legitimate reasons now to kill a young African American male.

[seabeyond]

171. buy a bb gun at walmart for sons bday. nt

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

172. Yes...anymore anyone?

[uppityperson]

150. They yelled as they drove up, were there less than 2 seconds before Tamir was shot.

"he did didn't drop the gun or put his hands up or whatever it was he was ordered"

One mississippi two mississipi. That is 2 seconds. Yell "show your hands show your hands" in that time as you pull up in a car. Did the person you are yelling at hear you? Is 1.5 seconds enough to yell that, have them hear you and comply?

No. It is not. Tamir was shot in under 2 seconds. You can't reach the end of the second second before he was shot.

When the cops pulled up, he was not pointing a gun, they had time to talk with him. "The only thing to say is "Drop it!" and only if the gun isn't drawn or pointed at anyone and if you're behind cover." And that was the situation, the gun wasn't drawn. And that was not the situation, the cops were not behind cover but chose to drive up right next to him.

And IF they thought he was a danger, pulling up next to him so the person in the passenger seat had NO protection if the person chose to shoot? Idiotic and assinine. They were not treating it as real by pulling up next to him, exposing the passenger cop to the gun.

"Supposedly, the kid reached for the gun instead of putting his hands up."

He had no time to do that or to comply. 1.5 seconds between the cops arriving and Tamir was shot.

"Now, if that is what happened - the kid didn't comply with orders to put his hands in the air and actually reached for the gun"

But that is NOT what happened. Look at the video. When did he get time to comply or even understand what they were yelling? When did he have any time to reach for the gun?

["This is NOT a police problem"

WRONG. This IS a police problem. Drive by shooting of a kid, go in guns ablazing rather than taking any time to look and see if there was a gun, if the gun was out, to talk to him. Just drive up fast next to him and BAM shoot him.

ONE MISSISSIPPI TWO MISSISSBAM IPPI


Are you really saying if police see a toddler who somehow got hold of a gun, or a toy gun that might be real, the police are justified in shooting them dead because "he age of this child didn't make him less dangerous if the gun was real but MORE dangerous because he's a child with no appreciation of how to properly handle a gun whether fake or real and the importance of not putting themselves or others at risk believing the gun IS real.

The police have NO CHOICE but to treat a gun that is not obviously a toy that has a bright orange tip as a real gun because it MIGHT be, and MIGHT be is far too great a risk to themselves and anyone else in the vicinity.

Seriously? Seriously?

And are you now going to come into my thread, post this and then accuse me of stalking you also?

[noiretextatique]

153. he was a 12 yo playing with a toy gun, you ghoul

Last edited Thu Nov 27, 2014, 05:09 PM - Edit history (1)

you defense of the execution of this child is DISGUSTING. he was playing with a toy gun...in an open carry state when it is legal, for white people, at least to walk around with REAL guns. the cops shot him in 1.5 seconds...there were barely getting our the car, and their guns were already blazing. there is simply NO EXCUSE.

[Scootaloo]

154. You can't see where "the kid" is when the car pulls up, because he's already on the ground

His name is Tamir Rice, by the way.

[d_r]

162. It was so fast

they shot this child before they were completely out of car.

It was like one second.

The child had to be surprised and scared.

If, and I mean IF, it happened so fast I don't see anyway for the police to have known it was possible, but IF he did reach towards the gun in his waist band, think for a minute what was in the kid's mind for that second. He probably saw the cop car and remember he had that bb gun. "Oh shit" and moved to show them. He was probably surprised and scared and realizing that he had that bb gun and then he is dead.

There is no defending that.

And give up the orange tip bs. If the bb gun was in his waist band there was no way they knew if it had an orange tip or not.

And frankly if it had an orange tip as big as anything there is no way the cops were going to lave it on there after they shot him.

That's a red herring. It was too fast to matter.

There is no excuse for it.

I don't care how scared and cowardly the police are, there was no excuse for it.

[Nevernose]

175. The gun was in his waist band

They had no idea what it looked like up close, nor if it had an orange tip or not. The kid didn't take it out of his pants.

There wasn't even time to say, "drop it." E rookie shoots the kid the moment he exits the vehicle. The time lapse on the video indicates the victim had between 1.5 and 2.5 seconds before he was shot.

Notice that the driver didn't even have time to open the door before the kid was shot.

He wasn't murdered, but I find it amazing that you can watch that video and not come to the conclusion that the shooter had, at the very least, an itchy trigger finger.

[janlyn]

145. OMFG!!

That was an execution!!!!!!

[Boxerfan]

176. I have avoided watching this video-till Faux aired it this AM

Its a freaking snuff film for all intents & purpose-WTF? The kid was obviously playing & unaware. Not given a shred of chance.

And this is a NEW problem. There have been toy weapons like-forever-I metal detect & dig up cap guns that are full size replica's with no orange tips whatever. I probably had one when I was a kid. And I never heard of a kid getting shot by cops while playing with one.

America has been F'd a long time and this is just a symptom. And I for one will NEVER call the cops for "help" unless I'm damn sure it is absolutely needed.

Because they all seem to have the same mentality nowadays-tiny penis syndrome or whatever. It is a "profession" which draws the bullies & control freaks-then rewards them with a gun & a badge.

You loose a lot when people no longer trust those empowered to "protect & serve"...