It's easier to indict a ham sandwich than a cop who kills a black man

[cali]

and it's pretty clear that changing this dynamic, the devaluation of black life, is a monumental task because it's not just cops. It's the culture at large. Cops reflect the culture they operate within.

Having a black President hasn't changed this. More blacks in high levels of government haven't changed this.

I wish I knew what would.

[pipoman]

1. Can you find examples of cops

Being indicted who have killed other races while on the job? The overall numbers of blacks killed by police is a separate issue from indictment. The indictment issue is more about police immunity.

[morningfog]

2. They kill far more black men than white men.

And it is not an issue of immunity. Immunity is a privilege against being sued.

[pipoman]

3. No, immunity is granted to police for both civil and criminal

About those examples of police being indicted in the deaths of other races?...

[morningfog]

5. I don't think you are right.

There is no such thing as immunity from criminal liability unless an agreement is entered into by a prosecutor.

Immunity is for personal liability in civil suits. If there were criminal immunity, the cases would not even go to the grand jury.

[pipoman]

7. They go to the grand jury to appease the public...

If Ferguson and New York hadn't been so publicized they wouldn't have gone to the gj.

Police are given immunity because they are humans who we (society) charges with dealing with criminals in an offensive way (as opposed to citizens who can deal with criminals defensively. Immunity is granted and a higher burden to protect police from prosecution for the results of human error. The line is civil rights violations, and even when they are demonstrated, civil liability is usually the only consequence and that is usually limited to liability insurance maximums and loss of police credentials.

[morningfog]

9. That is not immunity, a word which had a meaning.

[pipoman]

11. I have no idea what this means...

[morningfog]

15. I can tell. "Immunity" is a legal term. You are not using it accurately.

There is no "immunity" in the legal sense from prosecution of a criminal act because one it a cop. The only criminal immunity available to anyone is that by agreement by a prosecutor, usually in return for information or testimony at trial.

Immunity for government officials is only available during civil suits, and even then it is not absolute in most cases.

[CBGLuthier]

8. You want an example of an indictment? I got that plus a conviction

http://news.yahoo.com/jury-convicts-okla-cop-death-unarmed-teen-213054434.html

OKLAHOMA CITY (AP) — An Oklahoma jury Tuesday convicted a veteran police captain of first-degree manslaughter in the death of an unarmed teenager who was running away after scuffling with the officer.

Del City Police Capt. Randy Trent Harrison shot Dane Scott Jr. in the back on March 14, 2012, following a high-speed chase that began when Harrison tried to pull over Scott's car.

Harrison had previously arrested Scott on drug violations, and prosecutors said his pursuit of the teenager crossed the line from professional to personal. The defense portrayed Scott as a drug dealer and said Harrison believed the teen was reaching for a second weapon after the officer took one gun from him during a scuffle that followed the police chase.


Now this one example does not negate the fact that too many cops are getting away with murder but it does prove that they can indeed be found guilty.

He only got four years and he will probably not serve even half of it but at least he was actually found guilty.

[pipoman]

10. When it does happen I think is almost always because of a wilful

Departure from policy. In this case I expect the conviction hinged on the high speed chase being a violation of policy that wasn't a split second decision in the heat of the moment.

[morningfog]

16. Your judgment and opinion quite clearly ... colored.

[pipoman]

17. by facts

"prosecutors said his pursuit of the teenager crossed the line from professional to personal.

Had it not been for the wilful violation of pursuit policy he wouldn't have been charged/convicted either.

[Kalidurga]

4. Well for one thing

Stop letting the DA be in charge of the indictment process. We should have something like a state DA who is no longer involved in prosecuting civilian crimes and all they do is prosecute police in cases like this.

[Mr Dixon]

12. IMO

Agreed but that will never happen system is to corrupt

[Tatiana]

6. Accountability and stiff penalties. Those are the only things that will change this awful dynamic.

You're absolutely right. These grand jury members, as well as the cops themselves are reflective of the culture at large. The culture at large doesn't value black life.

Having a black President, unfortunately, seems to have intensified the sentiment of negative feelings toward black people.

It would be helpful if we had some sort of legislation that forced the appointment of a special prosecutor in these types of cases. Oftentimes, the relationship is too close between the prosecutor's office and law enforcement. It's almost like prosecuting a family member. There is a clear conflict of interest.

Having a prosecutor with no ties to the area or people would help a bit. Then I think we need to find more diverse jury pools.

Finally, I do not believe that officers who are found to be derelict in their duties should have immunity from civil lawsuits. I think we need statutes that tell law enforcement, if you use excessive force or otherwise fail to follow proper procedure, and your actions lead to someone's injury or death -- YOU will not be protected by the state or municipality.

When people start having to give up years of their lives, face civil lawsuits and the threat of going bankrupt, then maybe they will change their actions. Changing actions eventually can lead to a change in beliefs (eventually, black people will not be seen as "less than" or "demon-like&quot .

[pipoman]

14. Certainly some changes can be made

There is a line between human error and willful negligence. If we prosecute human error we will have a hard time finding people willing to gamble years of their lives to do a job that can strip them of their life, freedom, retirement, and/or assets for the results of a split second life or death response/decision.

[lonestarnot]

18. What about more psych exams before entry?

Racists could be discovered before entry.

[pipoman]

21. Sure...

Every department I am aware of does psych exams and polygraphs now. Looking at the Wilson/Brown case as an example, I haven't heard any evidence or stories of Wilson engaging in racist behavior prior to this incident despite working in predominantly black neighborhoods for several years. Then there is the Simpson case where Mark Furman made racist remarks in a literary work, and maybe on the coarse of conversation. Without some previous acts of racism how could it be avoided?

[lonestarnot]

22. People lie. I don't know.

[Mr Dixon]

13. SAD

All this hope and suggestions are great but remember this:


“Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will. Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have found out the exact measure of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them, and these will continue till they are resisted with either words or blows, or both. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress.”

[lonestarnot]

20. I think that you are correct. And I think every last dollar should be rung from richie riches' neck

and every form of social control of the oppressed should be scrutinized for its methods of implementation into social structures and institutions, so it can be countered with anything and everything at one's disposal. Scratch and claw at the fabric of its creeping success at every level, from the family unit to the Dept of Justice to the Supreme Ct.

[gort]

19. Indicting a ham sandwich is easy,

but there is never enough evidence when it comes to bringing the whole 'pig' to trial.