Eric Garner's crime was not against person or property.

[meaculpa2011]

Eric Garner was an enemy of The State.

Eric Garner committed the Unforgivable Sin: Depriving The State of tax revenue.

For his crime, The City of New York imposed the death penalty.

[littlewolf]

1. Yup.

you must not rob the state of the ability to collect taxes.
why just think, how are they gonna pay the cops?

[Lee-Lee]

2. Is this Libertarian Underground now? nt

[Kalidurga]

3. No we don't want to throw the poor out into the wild to fend for themselves

or advocate that they go hungry because they are between jobs, or disabled, or have young children and no daycare, or because they are mentally ill.

[Lee-Lee]

4. But just against taxes?

Or just taxes on tobacco?

[Kalidurga]

6. No I think it's a thing against

killing people over chump change. I could be wrong about that though.

[meaculpa2011]

18. No. It's a message board where we speak out...

against a government that lets the largest corporations pay no taxes while collecting billions from poor people.

[sabrina 1]

29. You mean Liberals are not supposed to care about citizens being murdered by police over

a couple of loose cigarettes? Since when did Liberals stop caring about bigotry and police brutality towards unarmed innocent people?

NY State Taxes are higher than most of the country btw. Here in Upstate NY we don't get much in return.

Raising taxes on cigarettes, turning them into the new 'drug war', is definitely NOT a Liberal Value. But that appears to be purpose, so they can fill those Private Prisons with even more of the poor and minorities.

Where I live a vast majority of the people oppose these efforts to criminalize cigarette smoking. Across the political spectrum.

The Drug 'War' has destroyed literally millions of lives and has done nothing, most likely planned, to end addiction.

Liberals always opposed those laws. For what I would think were obvious reasons.

Civil Liberties were the target of those laws and as we have seen with the murder of Eric Garner, it appears we are on the way to destroying even more lives, and losing even more rights.

And if Libertarians and Republicans agree with Liberals on this, that is GREAT! We need EVERYONE on board to end these crushing, destructive assaults on our Civil Liberties.

[Lee-Lee]

31. Raising taxes on tobacco is not a liberal value???

Are you kidding?

Taxing a harmful substance like tobacco to discourage use, and using that money for positive goverment activities is not a liberal value??????

[sabrina 1]

34. No, it is not. It is nothing but a ploy to start yet another 'war' on something. No Liberal I know

supports the destruction of our Civil Rights.

Let's tax fast foods to the max, because they are an even MORE harmful substance.

Definitely we need to curb the use of Soda by 'punishing' ADULTS who choose to drink it.

How about the Government simply adds an Amendment to the Constitution claiming the right to 'watch what you eat, what you drink, what you smoke, what you wear so that WE can 'punish' you for your choices'. So that WE can fill those Private Prisons with more of you.

So that WE can take away even more of your rights!!

No, it is NOT a liberal value to 'punish' people for their personal choices, that is a Right Wing Value.

See the Drug Laws! And then tell me how 'successful' they have been in stopping people from engaging in harmful behavior.

Hey, let's 'punish' everyone because everyone is engaging in some kind of 'harmful behavior'.

Land of the Free. Shameful to see ANY Liberal supporting these far right wing policies of punishing adults for their choices.

[morningfog]

5. No. His sin was being a black man who refused to cower.

There was no justification to the police arrest or the use if force. He was in the right by refusing to cower. They killed him for it.

[brooklynite]

8. Disagree

The use of force was unwarranted. The justification for arrest was absolutely there. He had a prior arrest record and he was violating the law at the time.

[morningfog]

10. His prior record is irrelevant to whether the arrest

was justified.

[brooklynite]

13. Okay, the selling of untaxed cigarettes is a violation of the law...

...which nobody seems to dispute he was doing.

[marym625]

16. It's a ticket

It's a fine and possibly community service.

We're talking less than thirty cents.

[morningfog]

17. Sure. But you could be subject to arrest

for a seat belt violation. I don't think you would argue such arrest justified.

[LanternWaste]

32. As is jaywalking, going five over the speed limit and placing loose change in parking meters...

"the selling of untaxed cigarettes is a violation of the law..."

As is jaywalking, going five over the speed limit and placing loose change in parking meters for other people. Six of one, half a dozen of the other.

[meaculpa2011]

11. Cigarette tax in NYC is $5.85 per pack.

Nearly 60% of all cigarettes sold in NYC are smuggled and sold tax free.

This is a crime the City and State cannot abide.

[marym625]

12. from what I understand it was one

Cigarette he was accused of selling. That's less than $0.30

What's your point? ;

[marym625]

15. Did I not get the point of your post?

Are you saying it had nothing to do with race?

[meow2u3]

9. Garner's crime was against regressive taxation

The cig tax in NYC is so high most smokers (smokers tend to be poorer) in his neighborhood couldn't afford them. He defied the public health nazi Lord Bloomberg and paid for it with his life, while the killer cops got off scot-free--for now.

Rich tax criminals are applauded for their crimes against the state; Eric Garner, not so much.

[brooklynite]

14. So, tax evasion is now okay, as long as its a tax we don't like...

I can think of some Tea Party people who would endorse that theory.

[Bluenorthwest]

19. When I see aggressive pursuit of other tax evaders and avoiders, the sort who have lawyers

and accountants assisting the evasion I could buy your reasoning. Those lawyers and accountants should also all go to jail. All that 'offshore' crap and inversions and it just goes on and on. The law itself assists the well off in avoiding taxes, we both know that.

[brooklynite]

27. If we had a national police force who's job was enforcing all national, state and local laws...

...I could buy your reasoning. But local police are responsible for enforcement of local laws. What another jurisdiction does or doesn't do isn't relevant.

[meow2u3]

23. I was decrying the double standard of tax evasion

As far as the PTB are concerned, it seems OK for rich people to dodge taxes on their billions by stashing their loot overseas, but let a poor person try to dodge an few dollars in regressive taxes and you see how the authorities react.

[alcibiades_mystery]

20. Wondered how libertarians were gonna make this about their pet bullshit

The actual "crime" was a nonessential element of this story. The police harassment of black men under the insane broken windows policies finds any fucking excuse it can. In this case, that was loosies. It could have been loitering, or jaywalking, or open container, or in the park after dArk, or the million and one other reasons people of color are harassed and bothered on the daily by the police. White libertarians and liberals: get it through your thick fucking skulls that race indeed does matter, and that it is not, as you always like to imagine, all about YOU and YOUR oppressions, real or imagined.

[meaculpa2011]

21. Loitering and jaywalking don't cost...

NYC $585 million per year.

Eric Garner had multiple violations for selling untaxed cigarettes. The police were sent out as tax enforcers and they collected their pound of flesh.

[alcibiades_mystery]

22. Loitering and jaywalking don't cost the city money, which is precisely why your argument is bullshit

Because people of color are constantly harassed for little no-cost things like that, or for just standing around, no crime or violation at all, just as frequently as they are for "cost" issues like selling loosies. The police are sent out every day to bother and harass people of color for nothing, for bullshit, for no-harm violations that escalate and build up.

This is about race. It's not about infantile Rand Paulite analyses of New York City tax policy or your precious fucking cigarettes. It's about race. It's about race. It's about race. It's about people of color, and particularly African Americans being treated as second class citizens under our current insane policing regime, being murdered by police regularly over nothing, no-cost, no-harm stops. About black people like Eric Garner being seen as less that human.

And fuck Rand Paul, really.

[meaculpa2011]

24. "You must learn to govern your passions, doctor.

They will be your undoing."

[LanternWaste]

33. As important, one must also learn to avoid the logical fallacy, Post hoc ergo prompter hoc.

As important, one must also learn to avoid the logical fallacy, Post hoc ergo prompter hoc... regardless of whether it's an undoing, or simply a lazy thought process.

[FSogol]

25. Will the police go after Mitt Romney and Jamie Dimon next?

[lonestarnot]

26. No apparently they are just "borrowing."

[meaculpa2011]

28. No. That's the point. n/t

[Odin2005]

30. Take this LOLbertarian shit over to Freeperland.

[FSogol]

37. +1 n/t

[Skidmore]

35. My husband and I were talking about this last night.

I dont know the tax breakdowns in NYC but the tax on those few cigarettes couldn't have been more than a few cents. I do think all people should pay their fair share of taxes and taxes in a modern society are necessary for the common good. What is criminal is not what Garner did, but what Wall Street and the finance sector have been engaging in. This needs to be crystallized and become part of the message. Rules are not just being discriminatory because of race but because of class also.

[Ykcutnek]

36. "Imposed the death penalty"

That's the only thing that really matters and why people are angry.

The tax revenue spiel was unnecessary.

[meaculpa2011]

38. Taxing poor people into permanent...

penury while corporate cronies pay nothing is a spiel that IS necessary.

Taxing cigarettes at $5.85 per pack knowing full well that the majority of smokers are poor and black and addicted is de facto prohibition and invites a black market.


Anyone living in NYC knows that the mission of the NYPD is to generate revenue.