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Atman

(31,464 posts)
Thu Dec 18, 2014, 02:51 PM Dec 2014

Wow. I'm being hammered by my Southern friends about Vermont's health care decision.

I don't even live in Vermont. Several of my Southern GOP friends (almost all of them in Florida) are singling me out, as if I have something to do with Vermont (I live in Connecticut), to say "THERE! That will show you! Single payer never works!" It's amazing. A state with fewer than a million people, many of them part-time students or off-the-grid farmers, couldn't make the math work. SHOCKER! Yet, somehow, that means it can't work for a nation of 320,000,000 people, and somehow this guy from Connecticut has something to do with it.

Jeezuz. I guess they have to dance around any victory fire than can find.

http://www.wcax.com/story/27661831/reactions-to-shumlins-decision-to-shelve-single-payer

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Wow. I'm being hammered by my Southern friends about Vermont's health care decision. (Original Post) Atman Dec 2014 OP
just point to where it is being used belzabubba333 Dec 2014 #1
Right-wingers have that covered. Aristus Dec 2014 #15
and to that i say it works there it can work here belzabubba333 Dec 2014 #16
I say that, too. Aristus Dec 2014 #18
yea same here belzabubba333 Dec 2014 #27
It also works in Canada, our NA neighbor. In large part due to to Tommy Douglas, social democrat appalachiablue Dec 2014 #28
Few European countries do single payer, particularly on a national level Recursion Dec 2014 #31
our military is Europe? Skittles Dec 2014 #62
Yeah, I tell them that, too. Aristus Dec 2014 #68
You're not referring to Tricare are you? madville Dec 2014 #91
South Korea rpannier Dec 2014 #92
Single payer? Not all that many places, really. Recursion Dec 2014 #30
Dont know the details of why it didnt work in Vermont, but it wont work anywhere as long NoJusticeNoPeace Dec 2014 #2
This is what it would have taken in Vermont for it to work in payroll taxes , just like Canada helpmetohelpyou Dec 2014 #23
At that cost SickOfTheOnePct Dec 2014 #33
No kidding , no one did helpmetohelpyou Dec 2014 #35
Is it really that much out of pocket in the end? Paulie Dec 2014 #73
What evidence is there that employers will actually pass any savings branford Dec 2014 #82
And laundry_queen Dec 2014 #56
and... handmade34 Dec 2014 #64
How many thousands do most people pay each year in health care costs? alarimer Dec 2014 #67
For family coverage with a decent plan, well over $1000 per month, up to $1500 goldent Dec 2014 #90
New York could pay for single payer by eliminating the millions of road signs that are plaguing our adirondacker Dec 2014 #3
People moor in Ct. to escape the taxes and mooring fees Warpy Dec 2014 #8
Any state can do it if the people want it helpmetohelpyou Dec 2014 #36
Exactly, and they would SAVE money in the long run. adirondacker Dec 2014 #37
The thing is you can't tax them so highly on other things helpmetohelpyou Dec 2014 #39
It boils down to increasing progressive taxes and reducing regressive ones. Upstate NY had a wicked adirondacker Dec 2014 #42
My property tax went up 14% and my governor just allowed CL&P a rate increase of 26% in 2015 helpmetohelpyou Dec 2014 #43
The entire country is infested with incestous, fraudulant, wasteful and abusive industries and WE adirondacker Dec 2014 #45
Oh no, I live in CT helpmetohelpyou Dec 2014 #48
We have Nationl Grid (London Multinational) raping us in NY. Last years rates shot up adirondacker Dec 2014 #50
It's not just income taxes. branford Dec 2014 #40
Oh I know but they grew up being taxed like that so to them it seems normal. helpmetohelpyou Dec 2014 #41
We definitely agree. branford Dec 2014 #47
And to your point here helpmetohelpyou Dec 2014 #44
US has the highest corprorate tax rates in the world. joeglow3 Dec 2014 #69
Its failure in Vermont outweighs its success in the rest of the world? LittleBlue Dec 2014 #4
This message was self-deleted by its author steve2470 Dec 2014 #5
lack of compassion is the key... steve2470 Dec 2014 #6
"Take your government hands off my Medicare!" GoCubsGo Dec 2014 #7
Yep. A single-payer system that only covers the elderly and disabled. dawg Dec 2014 #9
I hear what you are saying, but Medicare is really not a pure single player anymore. Hoyt Dec 2014 #10
It's hard to tell a person who makes $35,000 gross in Vermont your payroll tax helpmetohelpyou Dec 2014 #34
For-profit hospitals are a big problem. Maedhros Dec 2014 #11
I remember when hospitals were non profit and better. This neoliberal privitization of EVERYTHING appalachiablue Dec 2014 #29
Single payer works very well all over the world. Quantess Dec 2014 #12
Most of them live in Florida, so, uh...yeah. Atman Dec 2014 #14
It is not okay to stereotype like you just did. Quantess Dec 2014 #17
I'm from Florida. Atman Dec 2014 #19
Crying shame what's happened to beautiful Florida. Reaganism and GOP governance. appalachiablue Dec 2014 #32
I don't think Florida is unique to that sort of change. I've seen it in several states I've occupied adirondacker Dec 2014 #38
The left dismisses 20+ years of RW propaganda on Fox and hate radio. It's anal with many. appalachiablue Dec 2014 #75
No, it's fairly rare worldwide Recursion Dec 2014 #59
Learn something new every day! Quantess Dec 2014 #61
And that's a messaging problem we have Recursion Dec 2014 #63
If any state could prove sadoldgirl Dec 2014 #13
I agree -- controlling drug prices is key. subterranean Dec 2014 #55
It takes a larger pool of people to make it work affordably. Vinca Dec 2014 #20
No one said it couldn't work , the math works helpmetohelpyou Dec 2014 #21
Single payer can realistically only work on a national level, or.... JaneyVee Dec 2014 #22
It would still have to be funded by a higher tax rate helpmetohelpyou Dec 2014 #24
It was up to Vermonters if they wanted the tax increase helpmetohelpyou Dec 2014 #25
It is completely insane, the move would appear to reduce systematic cost by half based TheKentuckian Dec 2014 #26
We are now paying 17% or our GDP for health care, and people are bitching about 12%?? eridani Dec 2014 #46
even in Vermont handmade34 Dec 2014 #65
Over 6% of that 17% is already paid by government in Medicare, bornskeptic Dec 2014 #77
The 6% in Medicare is NOT an addon. Moveover-- eridani Dec 2014 #79
Congratulations, you raise some of the issues that make universal care problematic to many. branford Dec 2014 #81
Americans mostly do NOT have excellent health care--they don't have health care at all-- eridani Dec 2014 #83
I believe that you missed my point. branford Dec 2014 #84
Since they are rarely seriously sick, they don't have a clue about their coverage eridani Dec 2014 #86
Remind them their red state heroes can't make their bridges, roads and schools work.... Hassin Bin Sober Dec 2014 #49
well if they want to make an example of Vermont CreekDog Dec 2014 #51
Get new friends! n/t hrmjustin Dec 2014 #52
That's what I was thinking. Jamastiene Dec 2014 #58
My sister lived in NYC for six years where our brother was. A guy friend of a friend appalachiablue Dec 2014 #71
your southern friends are a bunch of idiots. nt Cali_Democrat Dec 2014 #53
Yea, right, elleng Dec 2014 #54
You sure picked some dumbasses for friends, Jamastiene Dec 2014 #57
you have some very stupid friends Skittles Dec 2014 #60
so they like the system we have now ?! "pay til you go bankrupt then lose your house and die" ? GreatGazoo Dec 2014 #66
What's with the veiled South bashing? Hosnon Dec 2014 #70
It's not veiled at all. I'm from Florida, as I have previously pointed out. Atman Dec 2014 #72
Being from and visiting Florida does not make you someone who is from Hosnon Dec 2014 #89
And you clearly missed my point. Atman Dec 2014 #93
I didn't suggest you couldn't. But Florida is not in the South. Hosnon Dec 2014 #94
What I thought. But FL is changing. It was part of the Confederacy like Texas which I didn't appalachiablue Dec 2014 #74
That is so true. Jamastiene Dec 2014 #78
Sorry to hear about those awful people who you were around, and since gone. appalachiablue Dec 2014 #87
Their can't-do spirit is what makes this country great BeyondGeography Dec 2014 #76
It didn't work because it wasn't single payer, not because it was Major Nikon Dec 2014 #80
Truth be told, I don't think single payer would work all that well here either. Zavulon Dec 2014 #85
The VA was managed just fine back in the 90s. Jamastiene Dec 2014 #88
Interesting. Fawke Em Dec 2014 #95

Aristus

(66,093 posts)
15. Right-wingers have that covered.
Thu Dec 18, 2014, 05:04 PM
Dec 2014

"Yeah, but that's Europe!"

Like that's supposed to end all discussion.

appalachiablue

(41,052 posts)
28. It also works in Canada, our NA neighbor. In large part due to to Tommy Douglas, social democrat
Thu Dec 18, 2014, 11:00 PM
Dec 2014

politician who helped get Canada universal health care in 1961. (Keifer Sutherland's grandfather).
But that was not America, and so long ago.......??

As to FL people thinking CT is the same as VT, I've encountered folks that when I say I'm in NoVa/DC, they respond, oh, I used to live in Atlanta! Huh? It's all the same to some. Like me meeting someone from Oregon and saying I visited Kansas City once. Ignorance abounds..

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
31. Few European countries do single payer, particularly on a national level
Thu Dec 18, 2014, 11:14 PM
Dec 2014

Some states in Germany do, and I think one Swiss canton, plus IIRC Norway. Most of the rest use either a mixed public-private system, or a national health service.

Public payments to private providers is a difficult balancing act. Canada got it right, but it's not the most popular model out there, and it's not remotely the only way to achieve universal health care.

Aristus

(66,093 posts)
68. Yeah, I tell them that, too.
Fri Dec 19, 2014, 10:51 AM
Dec 2014

"Our military utilizes socialized medicine. Every hospital and every clinic is a government facility, and every doctor and every nurse is a government employee."

Still: no ice. Right-wingers are too stupid to see it...

madville

(7,397 posts)
91. You're not referring to Tricare are you?
Tue Dec 23, 2014, 01:22 AM
Dec 2014

Because my family and I spent many years under Tricare and I mostly had civilian doctors at private facilities. Some of the years I was active duty I had to go to a Navy medical facility for primary care but would get referred to private specialist sin town. The rest of the family was allowed to choose private civilian providers.

You know there are 11 different kinds of Tricare as well right? Some don't allow you to use government facilities or providers. There's standard, prime, select, Tricare for life, extra, overseas, remote, retiree, etc.

I would say the vast majority of those enrolled in Tricare use private civilian providers and facilities.

rpannier

(24,304 posts)
92. South Korea
Tue Dec 23, 2014, 01:26 AM
Dec 2014

National Health Care here
It doesn't cover everything, but you can purchase supplemental insurance through (gasp!) the post office and other places
But, we stopped using private insurance in like '05

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
30. Single payer? Not all that many places, really.
Thu Dec 18, 2014, 11:12 PM
Dec 2014

Single payer is one particular model of universal healthcare access, and not the most popular. Actually AFAIK only Canada and certain states in Germany do it. Hybrid public-private insurance systems (eg, the ACA) are more popular, as are state run medical programs.

NoJusticeNoPeace

(5,018 posts)
2. Dont know the details of why it didnt work in Vermont, but it wont work anywhere as long
Thu Dec 18, 2014, 03:02 PM
Dec 2014

as we allow the absurd profits for hospitals, pharmaceutical companies and many physicians, specialists especially.

Personally, I think to get a medical license as a physician in America you should have to agree to take on a certain number of medicare patients, medicaid patients, etc.

I think if we went to universal healthcare you could require ALL physicians participate and ALL hospitals and you could easily legislate reasonable rules around pharmaceuticals.



We have such an absurd idea of what capitalism should be, it is so harmful to so many.

 

helpmetohelpyou

(589 posts)
23. This is what it would have taken in Vermont for it to work in payroll taxes , just like Canada
Thu Dec 18, 2014, 06:38 PM
Dec 2014

$1 to $43,953 =​15 per cent
$43,954 to $87,907= ​22 per cent
​$87,908 to $136,270 =​26 per cent
$136,271 and up ​ =29 per cent


 

helpmetohelpyou

(589 posts)
35. No kidding , no one did
Fri Dec 19, 2014, 12:41 AM
Dec 2014

Everyone would pay it . you make $20,000 gross
You pay $3000.00 in payroll tax


That's how other countries are able to do it. It's normal in other countries to pay that kind of tax.

We are not use to it.

Paulie

(8,462 posts)
73. Is it really that much out of pocket in the end?
Fri Dec 19, 2014, 12:31 PM
Dec 2014

If you add in the existing employer portion to gross salary?

 

branford

(4,462 posts)
82. What evidence is there that employers will actually pass any savings
Fri Dec 19, 2014, 10:32 PM
Dec 2014

to employees through an increase in gross salary?

It's an assumption that many make that has no basis in fact? It's far more likely that business will simply retain any savings as profits. Moreover, since wage controls are considered politically outlandish, the government will not be able to balance any employer savings to increases in employee pay by compulsory means.

laundry_queen

(8,646 posts)
56. And
Fri Dec 19, 2014, 02:45 AM
Dec 2014

that is how the 1% wins - they convince people that it's a better value to spend money on for-profit health insurance that may or may not provide actual care in for profit hospitals than it is to spend money on taxes and have a solid, fair, equal and universal health care system for all. People would rather chance losing their homes than pay a few more percent in taxes for guaranteed care for all. As a Canadian, I just find it downright weird. Sometimes it's hard to comprehend how individualistic American society is.

alarimer

(16,245 posts)
67. How many thousands do most people pay each year in health care costs?
Fri Dec 19, 2014, 09:49 AM
Dec 2014

Between what an individual and their employer pays monthly in health care premiums (call it $600 a month for family coverage) and thousands in deductibles and co-payments, I'd think that would be close to good deal. But nobody seems to realize that, with taxes paying for everything for everyone, there would be no $600 a month in premiums. It sounds like they weren't clear on that.

Vermont is a small state, so it doesn't benefit from the economies of scale, the way California might.

But it shouldn't be on payroll taxes anyway; it should be INCOME tax (that way rich people have to pay too) and that should include income tax too.

It sounds like the Gov. of Vt is a spineless coward.

goldent

(1,582 posts)
90. For family coverage with a decent plan, well over $1000 per month, up to $1500
Tue Dec 23, 2014, 12:31 AM
Dec 2014

It is reported on your W-2

adirondacker

(2,921 posts)
3. New York could pay for single payer by eliminating the millions of road signs that are plaguing our
Thu Dec 18, 2014, 03:03 PM
Dec 2014

highways. I've never seen so much useless shit thrown up on the side of the road as here (well maybe South Carolina).
Connecticut could impose a Yacht tax and increase harbor fees to pay for theirs.

 

helpmetohelpyou

(589 posts)
36. Any state can do it if the people want it
Fri Dec 19, 2014, 12:45 AM
Dec 2014

People would have to agree to a higher payroll tax

Citizens in other countries pay it.

adirondacker

(2,921 posts)
37. Exactly, and they would SAVE money in the long run.
Fri Dec 19, 2014, 12:50 AM
Dec 2014

I still think they could eliminate about 90% of the road signs in NY to subsidize the costs though.
I'm not sure what companies are involved with producing them, but they must have some serious lobbying power in the state.

 

helpmetohelpyou

(589 posts)
39. The thing is you can't tax them so highly on other things
Fri Dec 19, 2014, 12:57 AM
Dec 2014

Property tax is a big issue in Vermont and pretty much in every New England state

How do you tell a person who owns a home making $35,000 or $40,000 a year gross

Your pay roll tax is going up 11% to 15% and by the way you also just had
your property tax increase 20% also?

This happened in Vermont just this year

adirondacker

(2,921 posts)
42. It boils down to increasing progressive taxes and reducing regressive ones. Upstate NY had a wicked
Fri Dec 19, 2014, 01:11 AM
Dec 2014

increase in property taxes in the last several years (my own doubled) and sales tax has been on a steady rise nearing 10% in some counties. Meanwhile, private contractors are raking in billions of taxpayer dollars on half assed construction projects around the state.
Everything is out of wack in this state and most of the country and is why I agree with Bernie that we NEED a Revolution.

 

helpmetohelpyou

(589 posts)
43. My property tax went up 14% and my governor just allowed CL&P a rate increase of 26% in 2015
Fri Dec 19, 2014, 01:17 AM
Dec 2014

It's getting stupid

adirondacker

(2,921 posts)
45. The entire country is infested with incestous, fraudulant, wasteful and abusive industries and WE
Fri Dec 19, 2014, 01:24 AM
Dec 2014

are paying for it. Sorry to hear my favorite NE state isn't immune. Then again, doesn't AIG own Stowe?

 

helpmetohelpyou

(589 posts)
48. Oh no, I live in CT
Fri Dec 19, 2014, 01:29 AM
Dec 2014

I love my state and I don't even mind paying my taxes when I see them put to good use, schools , roads

but this CL&P is just criminal

adirondacker

(2,921 posts)
50. We have Nationl Grid (London Multinational) raping us in NY. Last years rates shot up
Fri Dec 19, 2014, 01:44 AM
Dec 2014

nearly double. Even the right wing rednecks were upset about crony capitalism!

Sorry I was confused about your location.

 

branford

(4,462 posts)
40. It's not just income taxes.
Fri Dec 19, 2014, 01:00 AM
Dec 2014

Many of the countries with universal healthcare also have an extreme high VAT (sales tax) upwards of 19+% and/or higher corporate taxes.

You have to convince Americans, the majority of whom already have excellent care, to pay significantly more in taxes and fees, and for many, receive fewer choices and versatility in care and longer wait times. For it to occur nationally, you also have to eliminate an entire industry that employs many thousands of workers and pay significant taxes.

Europe and Canada and simply not the USA. Any universal care in the USA must be phased in very slowly with limited disruption. The more stark the demanded change, the greater the inevitable push-back. Do not forget that the limited PPACA is still unpopular, cost Democrats control of Congress, and still might be gutted in the courts.

 

helpmetohelpyou

(589 posts)
41. Oh I know but they grew up being taxed like that so to them it seems normal.
Fri Dec 19, 2014, 01:05 AM
Dec 2014

That's why Vermont was the wrong state to pick as a model to try this in my opinion .

It's expensive to live there , long winters , high heating costs , high energy prices, no industry other than tourism .

Very low paying jobs compared to the rest of New England

 

branford

(4,462 posts)
47. We definitely agree.
Fri Dec 19, 2014, 01:28 AM
Dec 2014

The attention was on Vermont because they appeared willing and believed themselves able to implement single payer, were very public with their pronouncements, and given their ultra-progressive politics unlike other areas of the country, expectations were unreasonably high.

I would also note that if taxes and fees were punitively raised, many businesses and citizens would simply leave Vermont. Moving to states like Connecticut, Massachusetts or New Hampshire would be quick and easy, and they would be most welcome. Vermonters with the greatest wealth are generally also the most mobile.

 

helpmetohelpyou

(589 posts)
44. And to your point here
Fri Dec 19, 2014, 01:23 AM
Dec 2014

"You have to convince Americans, the majority of whom already have excellent care, to pay significantly more in taxes"


Tell me how you convince state and federal workers who have one of the best
health care insurances that they have to give it up?

Response to Atman (Original post)

steve2470

(37,457 posts)
6. lack of compassion is the key...
Thu Dec 18, 2014, 03:09 PM
Dec 2014

You're ok with people going without adequate healthcare ? (talking to the gop friends)

WWJD ? What's the ethical thing to do about that situation ? Just let people suffer and die ? Yea, right.

GoCubsGo

(32,061 posts)
7. "Take your government hands off my Medicare!"
Thu Dec 18, 2014, 03:13 PM
Dec 2014

How many of your GOP friends are on Medicare? It's a successful single-payer program. If any, are on it ask them if they're ready to give it up. If not, ask them if their parents are.

dawg

(10,610 posts)
9. Yep. A single-payer system that only covers the elderly and disabled.
Thu Dec 18, 2014, 03:57 PM
Dec 2014

(Plus a few people with kidney problems, for whatever obscure legislative reason).

It's obviously a workable thing on a national level. It's been working for fifty years.

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
10. I hear what you are saying, but Medicare is really not a pure single player anymore.
Thu Dec 18, 2014, 04:01 PM
Dec 2014

Last edited Fri Dec 19, 2014, 02:11 AM - Edit history (1)

30% of beneficiaries are in Medicare Advantage plans which are essentially commercial plans under some broad federal guidelines. Most of the other beneficiaries have a supplemental insurer that covers the hefty coinsurance and lack of an out-of-pocket Max.

Insurance companies handle claims payment, beneficiary issues, utilization issues, provider enrollment, etc. Government would have to invest a ton to take that over at this point.

As Vermont found, it sounds simple, but it ain't. People aren't even smart enough to realize they might be better off with a hefty tax increase, but no premium payments..

I'm no longer confident we'll wise up in time to handle issues like health care.

 

helpmetohelpyou

(589 posts)
34. It's hard to tell a person who makes $35,000 gross in Vermont your payroll tax
Fri Dec 19, 2014, 12:36 AM
Dec 2014

from now on will be $5250.00
Plus Vermont just had a major property tax increase on homes due to schools asking for more money.

No joke , some peoples house property taxes were increased by 20% to 30%

That a huge increase for a person who owns a typical home in Vermont making $30,000 to 35,000 a year

They are being taxed to death plus the cost of electricity is going up again in 2015


The people who are being hurt are the middle class here , not the rich who can afford paying
all these tax increases .

There comes a point that even progressives say I can't afford these taxes and still live in Vermont

 

Maedhros

(10,007 posts)
11. For-profit hospitals are a big problem.
Thu Dec 18, 2014, 04:33 PM
Dec 2014

Back when American medical care was second to none, hospitals were nonprofit enterprises. We should go back to that, IMO.

appalachiablue

(41,052 posts)
29. I remember when hospitals were non profit and better. This neoliberal privitization of EVERYTHING
Thu Dec 18, 2014, 11:08 PM
Dec 2014

including public schools and roads, and humans as mere commodities is deadly. Now hospitals are doing more corp. mergers, big box style- combining two hospitals so here's only one choice, or so people have to drive more than 50 miles to get care.

Atman

(31,464 posts)
14. Most of them live in Florida, so, uh...yeah.
Thu Dec 18, 2014, 05:02 PM
Dec 2014

Sorry Florida DUers. But you know what I'm talking about.

Atman

(31,464 posts)
19. I'm from Florida.
Thu Dec 18, 2014, 06:01 PM
Dec 2014

I don't live there anymore, but I grew up there. It used to be a pretty progressive place, at least where I lived on the Space Coast. Lots of scientists and thinking people. Now they all say Obama killed the space program (although Bush did). And every other billboard is for Jesus or anti-abortion groups (and Ron Jon). Now everyone seems to be a right-winger. I know this is a generalization, but remember, I grew up there. I lived among them...they've changed. The entire state has changed. I'm not sure why, but even my old dope-smoking friends are all Jesus and Fox "News."

Maybe you're not, I'm certainly not claiming everyone is. I'm just saying that on my frequent trips home the place seems to get crazier and crazier. Re-electing Rick Scott didn't help change that perception.

appalachiablue

(41,052 posts)
32. Crying shame what's happened to beautiful Florida. Reaganism and GOP governance.
Thu Dec 18, 2014, 11:17 PM
Dec 2014

I've gone there since age 5, have/had relatives in Miami, Ft. Laud, Space Coast, Naples and JAX.
Some of the best memories ever- visits, tropics, Keyes and Key West. An uncle was the science editor of a major Miami newspaper, knew some astronauts. Another was an engineer for NASA and lived in the Melbourne area. There were many bright and progressive people. The change is radical, unbelievable.

adirondacker

(2,921 posts)
38. I don't think Florida is unique to that sort of change. I've seen it in several states I've occupied
Fri Dec 19, 2014, 12:55 AM
Dec 2014

including NY. The entire country has become corrupted and fucked up with a few exceptions (VT, MN, and OR).

appalachiablue

(41,052 posts)
75. The left dismisses 20+ years of RW propaganda on Fox and hate radio. It's anal with many.
Fri Dec 19, 2014, 02:08 PM
Dec 2014

No wonder FL and other places have become more reactionary. In many towns and areas Fox is all people get, as I've even seen from commenters on DU. MSNBC costs, 1200 radio stations in the US are now consolidated. Fox and RW radio are heard in cars, trucks, offices, businesses, stores, at military bases and at colleges because of sports coverage agreements. Some people don't have or can't afford internet service, not just in rural areas. Same with poor communities that have no grocery store with fresh food for miles, only junk convenience stores. This is unknown by many in more affluent circumstances and areas.

Media deregulation in 1996, then consolidation of the US media by 6 giant corporations who control 90% of everything on TV, radio and in print now has had a huge negative impact. Roger Ailes of Fox first approached Nixon about GOP TV in the 1970s. The left's failure to admit and address this reality is a serious blunder. After media control, unlimited money in politics is the most dangerous change in politics this country faces. Control the information means control the people. To that I'd add control the food, control the people.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
59. No, it's fairly rare worldwide
Fri Dec 19, 2014, 04:33 AM
Dec 2014

Most countries with universal health care do not use single payer insurance to achieve it. Canada is actually kind of an outlier there.

Quantess

(27,630 posts)
61. Learn something new every day!
Fri Dec 19, 2014, 04:39 AM
Dec 2014

I did not know there was a distinction between single payer and universal health care.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
63. And that's a messaging problem we have
Fri Dec 19, 2014, 05:05 AM
Dec 2014

Whoever decided in 2010 to push the meme as "single payer" made a mistake, IMO

sadoldgirl

(3,431 posts)
13. If any state could prove
Thu Dec 18, 2014, 04:42 PM
Dec 2014

that single payer can work, then it has to be California.
No small state is able to force it to work. However, this
would also have to include dealing with big Pharma.

subterranean

(3,427 posts)
55. I agree -- controlling drug prices is key.
Fri Dec 19, 2014, 02:39 AM
Dec 2014

Every other country with UHC regulates prescription drug prices to some degree. That's one way they keep costs down. Yet in the U.S., Medicare is specifically prohibited from negotiating for better drug prices. Crazy.

Vinca

(50,170 posts)
20. It takes a larger pool of people to make it work affordably.
Thu Dec 18, 2014, 06:16 PM
Dec 2014

If we had gotten a public option in the healthcare bill we'd be well on the way.

 

helpmetohelpyou

(589 posts)
21. No one said it couldn't work , the math works
Thu Dec 18, 2014, 06:23 PM
Dec 2014

Shumlin said it showed the plan would require an 11.5 percent payroll tax on businesses and an income tax separate from the one the state already has of up to 9.5 percent



He's not an idiot so he knew it had to be paid for by tax increases .

It comes down really if Vermonters want this type of tax increase to happen.

 

JaneyVee

(19,877 posts)
22. Single payer can realistically only work on a national level, or....
Thu Dec 18, 2014, 06:34 PM
Dec 2014

A state with a high population. Otherwise it would have to be funded by higher taxes.

 

helpmetohelpyou

(589 posts)
24. It would still have to be funded by a higher tax rate
Thu Dec 18, 2014, 06:43 PM
Dec 2014

The current one we have would never fund it .

We would have to close off loop holes in our current tax system .

Everyone pays something but people who earn less just pay less payroll tax and get back less
when they file at the end of the year.

It could easily work here

TheKentuckian

(24,943 posts)
26. It is completely insane, the move would appear to reduce systematic cost by half based
Thu Dec 18, 2014, 06:58 PM
Dec 2014

on the stated cost of the program and the state's total health expenditures.

What everybody seems too goofy to grasp is there aren't magic beans to put into the coffers. The whole point is to take the health care dollars and divert them into a single pool run by the state. That is where the savings come from not magic beans in the tax revenue stream.

At this point, I'm thoroughly befuddled by what the Vermont legislature and Governor even had in mind for this and if it was all for show because what on Earth did they think it would cost and where would the money come from?
How do you come out and say it will cost 2 billion and that is too much while it costs 2.5 times that under the current paradigm? Did they think going single payer would reduce the cost by 99%?

eridani

(51,907 posts)
46. We are now paying 17% or our GDP for health care, and people are bitching about 12%??
Fri Dec 19, 2014, 01:27 AM
Dec 2014

Most businesses providing health care are paying 15% of payroll minimum. If you prefer 17% in premiums, deductibles and copays to 11.5% in taxes, you are too fucking stupid to be running around outside without adult supervision. The tax is a fucking substitution, not an add-on.

bornskeptic

(1,330 posts)
77. Over 6% of that 17% is already paid by government in Medicare,
Fri Dec 19, 2014, 05:12 PM
Dec 2014

Medicaid, Tricare, and through the VA. So if you add 12% in payroll tax total cost won't go down, and will probably go up. The idea that single payer will magically cut healthcare costs is nonsense. The countries in Europe with healthcare financing by private insurers are just as economical and provide care as good as the Canadian single payer system. The ACA needs more regulation and increased regulation to be comparable to the Dutch, Swiss, and German systems, But the direction it takes is the only one which can lead to true universal healthcare in the lifetime of anyone alive today.

eridani

(51,907 posts)
79. The 6% in Medicare is NOT an addon. Moveover--
Fri Dec 19, 2014, 08:58 PM
Dec 2014

--in all the systems you mentioned the government is the ultimate dictator of what benefits must be offered and what they must cost. The private insurers just add bells and whistles for people who want them.

 

branford

(4,462 posts)
81. Congratulations, you raise some of the issues that make universal care problematic to many.
Fri Dec 19, 2014, 10:28 PM
Dec 2014

In order to save or control costs, many of the universal systems limit the number or types of treatment and drugs and/or ration in such a manner that results in long wait times or denial of end of life care (e.g., death panels). Although insurance companies in the USA also somewhat limit certain treatments, the number of different insurers, American healthcare culture and demands, and cost and profit system, render the variety, availability and ready accessibility of treatments much greater in the USA overall.

There is no perfect healthcare system, and no matter the system, healthcare is and will continue to be expensive. Trade-offs must always be made.

The simple fact is that the majority of American voters have excellent insurance and healthcare. You need to convince them that they should pay more in taxes and other fees to ensure a more universal system that may not be better that the one they currently use.

I also am always amused about how many claim that employers will raise employee salaries by any premium savings in a universal system. First, since companies will likely be taxed to pay for such a system, either directly or by increases in their portion payroll taxes, their savings may be minimal to nonexistent. More importantly, I've never seen any evidence that these companies will actually increase worker pay because of any savings, rather than just increase company profits. Absent strict wage controls, a situation far less likely than single payer, I'm not convinced that employees will ever see a dime of any purported universal healthcare savings.

eridani

(51,907 posts)
83. Americans mostly do NOT have excellent health care--they don't have health care at all--
Fri Dec 19, 2014, 11:16 PM
Dec 2014

--because they mostly don't get sick. In every age demographic, 5% of that demographic accounts for 50% of the costs of that demographic. and 15% accounts for 85% of the cost. The remaining 85% account for only 15% of costs. If you are not in the sick 15%, your opinion of how good your insurance is is worth exactly what your opinion about how good your fire extinguisher is--that is to say nothing whatsoever. Most people who become medically bankrupt have insurance. Medical bankruptcies in the rest of the developed world = 0.

"Ready availability" is the sickest fucking amoral sociopathic claim about US health care that I've ever heard. How is that consistent with the fact that 60,000+ people a year die in the US because they can't pay for health care? The ACA will save 24,000 a year, but applying the same actuarial standards to those who will remain uninsured yields a figure of 36,000 per year continuing to die. People who die in the rest of the developed world because of lack of money = 0.

So everything isn't covered in these countries? So what? Most of them allow you to buy what is not covered on your own dime, and since health care is so much less expensive, a majority of the population can afford that.

Example--my husband and I were biking in the Netherlands in 1996 when he developed a really serious pain in one of his teeth. The people at the hostel in Groningen where we stayed warned us that since we weren't Dutch citizens, we would have to pay cash out of pocket to a dentist. We cashed most of our remaining travelers checks, which turned out to be totally unnecessary. Charge for the first step of one root canal = 100 guilders, or about $25 American. A year later back home I needed a root canal that cost $1300. (That included the cap as well as the first drilling out step; not sure how to separate the two costs.) I got a very good root canal operation, but it was not at all different from the much cheaper Dutch one.

 

branford

(4,462 posts)
84. I believe that you missed my point.
Sat Dec 20, 2014, 12:45 AM
Dec 2014

First, I support universal healthcare, although it needn't necessarily be single payer. You need not convince me that universal coverage easily outweighs the benefits of our current system.

However, no system is perfect or free. If you intend to seek change, you need to understand and acknowledge the pros and cons of each system.

Simply, most Americans have employer provided healthcare and are pleased with the coverage. Those who have coverage tend to have quick and ready availability to costly procedures and drugs, including extensive end of life care. You or I might believe that their sentiments are misplaced or just wrong, that they are selfish, or that we can do better, but that is the situation that exists and must be dealt with. Many Americans are also culturally highly adverse to additional or raised taxes and fees that would be necessary for universal care, while our European and Canadian friends take these expenses for granted. The USA is not the Netherlands, and Americans are not the Dutch.

eridani

(51,907 posts)
86. Since they are rarely seriously sick, they don't have a clue about their coverage
Sat Dec 20, 2014, 03:56 AM
Dec 2014

They are pleased because they aren't sick and smug enough to thing they will never get sick. Our system is the mass murder of tens of thousands a year, and the bankruptcy of hundreds of thousands more. Are lots of our fellow so-called citizens vicious amoral assholes who don't give a shit about that because the odds are 85 out of 100 that it will never be them? Sure. And even more are so fucking stupid that they prefer an $800/month premium to a $200/month tax, and so fucking stupid that they don't understand that the tax is not in addition to a premium, but a substitute for it. Of course, but that shouldn't stop everyone else from advocating the policy that is morally superior and also cheaper.

Hassin Bin Sober

(26,272 posts)
49. Remind them their red state heroes can't make their bridges, roads and schools work....
Fri Dec 19, 2014, 01:30 AM
Dec 2014

.... either without help from the more populous states.

Idaho, Montana, Sarah Palin's Alaska, Bobby Jindal's Louisiana, Mississippi etc etc all couldn't make basic services without dipping their claws in the pockets of the more densely populated states.

And that's for basics. Schools and fire protection and police protection.

So why condemn an idea based on a tiny state's inability to provide another basic service?

CreekDog

(46,192 posts)
51. well if they want to make an example of Vermont
Fri Dec 19, 2014, 01:50 AM
Dec 2014

then you can point out that it works in dozens of countries for less money than our private system.

appalachiablue

(41,052 posts)
71. My sister lived in NYC for six years where our brother was. A guy friend of a friend
Fri Dec 19, 2014, 12:27 PM
Dec 2014

insisted that there was no 'West Virginia' just Virginia. He was a graduate of NYC public schools and a lawyer. I wrote up thread how I mentioned that I'd lived in NoVa/DC and man from Michigan said, 'great, I used to live in Atlanta'. Huh? What the connection was I don't know. A distinguished older doctor we know who taught at a US medical school once brought up Winston Churchill. A student said that he was an American President. Ignorance abounds.

Atman

(31,464 posts)
72. It's not veiled at all. I'm from Florida, as I have previously pointed out.
Fri Dec 19, 2014, 12:30 PM
Dec 2014

I don't live there now, but after some 25 years there, and frequent trips home (I still do some work for my old home town) I don't feel I'm out of line making observations. But thank you for your concern.

Hosnon

(7,800 posts)
89. Being from and visiting Florida does not make you someone who is from
Tue Dec 23, 2014, 12:17 AM
Dec 2014

or visits the South.

That was my point. It's as irrelevant as blaming something Californians do on "Yankees".

Atman

(31,464 posts)
93. And you clearly missed my point.
Tue Dec 23, 2014, 09:28 AM
Dec 2014

I am still active in Florida politics and still work for my home town. Much of my family is still there. I am in Florida frequently. I do feel that I am able to make an observation. Thanks again for your concern.

Hosnon

(7,800 posts)
94. I didn't suggest you couldn't. But Florida is not in the South.
Fri Dec 26, 2014, 11:50 PM
Dec 2014

So whatever observations and opinions you have are of Floridians, not Southerners.

appalachiablue

(41,052 posts)
74. What I thought. But FL is changing. It was part of the Confederacy like Texas which I didn't
Fri Dec 19, 2014, 01:33 PM
Dec 2014

know until I just looked it up. South bashing is pervasive now, more than I've ever seen and a lot is warranted because of fervent religious and gun culture and almost total red state dominance now. The South as all bad viewpoint is on DU but there are also those who defend insults or aren't so bothered by them. A few months ago there were many, many heated comments to the post, 'Maybe we should stop the Midwest and South bashing'.

I'm not southern but I know many liberals in the South including FL. Years ago a colleague from CT who'd been in DC/MD longtime was referred to a gracious old seaside resort hotel in Va Beach for a New Years holiday getaway. She came back very pleased, talked about what a great time they had especially the lower prices. Then at the end she remarked 'no wonder they lost the war' and laughed.

The image of the South as stupid, backward and inferior will never end with many, especially those who believe in Northern superiority. Lately the South's usage of more tax dollars is added in. Up thread I wrote about other experiences I've had, esp. in NY. Ignorance abounds and is not limited to the South but that longtime perception persists.

Jamastiene

(38,187 posts)
78. That is so true.
Fri Dec 19, 2014, 07:52 PM
Dec 2014

Also, many of the "isms" attributed to the south also exist elsewhere too.

I was once in a band with a guy and a girl from NY. When the guy found out I was gay, he said he didn't care if I was a "carpet muncher" as if that was the right thing to say. He didn't think twice about it. He was down here in NC for about 6 or 7 years. He brought his prejudices against black people with him too. I was always firmly against that and let him know right away. His then girlfriend, later his wife, had her own prejudices she brought with her too. She sat there in the guitar store reading "The Color of Crime," a known white racist publication that is even listed on the SPLC's site as skewed to make all crime seem to be perpetrated by black people. I told her a hate group published it and she didn't seem to care. She brought her racism with her down here too.

The guy wanted me to join an all white blues band that would not let a black drummer I knew play even though drummers are hard to come by in this area. I refused to play with them and told them and him flat out why. That's just ridiculous. They either wanted a full band or not. I wasn't going to join in with their stupid prejudices. The guy that led that band said it was his girlfriend who did not want black people in the band. It was a convenient lie for him to tell when he was confronted for his racism. I pointed out to him that I know how Richmond County, NC is when it comes to women. No woman ever controls any man here. They don't even allow women in the homeless shelter here. So, I knew he was flat out lying. After that one experience with that band, I never talked to any of those people again, including the guy from NY that I had played with (after teaching him that "carpet muncher" was not a good thing to call a lesbian) for 6 years.

What kills me though is that I can go one county west of me in this southern state and the racism is not so prevalent. So, to label the entire south or even an entire state as "the problem" when it comes to the "isms" is very ignorant. There are pockets of racism everywhere. It is the same with homophobia. Asheville is known as the San Fransisco of the south by many. It's right here in the same state where I live. Yet, in my hometown, most people think everything up to and including raping a lesbian, is the right thing to do. I know that because it has been my experience with this place. Even members of my own family think raping a lesbian is the right thing to do to "straighten her out." There are also people who are appalled by that sort of thing even here too though. So, while the ruling class is extreme in its homophobia, there are individuals who are against the horrible crap done to gay people here.

I don't think it is a north/south/east/west thing. I think it comes down to individual by individual. Of course, there are pockets of those problems in certain cities in all states, including some southern states, but there are intelligent people, who are not ignorant hatemongers, here too.

appalachiablue

(41,052 posts)
87. Sorry to hear about those awful people who you were around, and since gone.
Sun Dec 21, 2014, 04:13 PM
Dec 2014

I've never been around really overt hateful people in my own group, at work or among neighbors except a few and I'm very grateful. Up thread my replies mention folks ignorant of geography and bad attitudes about the South that I've encountered. It's entrenched, convenient to think ignorance and hate are all in the South for many I think. Or that the South is responsible. Even a couple well known progressive media hosts I like, after talking about a gun incident or bigotry event in a NON-South state say- there you go, those Southern gun nuts, rwingers at it again! One host idealizes Scandinavian countries and their social democracies. But they are even experiencing a lot of hate, anti-others because of economic austerity, anti-EU sentiment, immigration. Little of this is covered in US media but it's there in overseas news.

The left's indifference and inaction to the influence of Fox, hate radio and online hate for 20+ years is concerning to me. It's actually propaganda and legal since the media was deregulated in the 1990s and is now owned by 6 major media corporations that control 90% of all TV, radio and print news. The lies and dividing of people promotes conservatism and policies of the rich. Many don't realize it's untrue, not news and that they're being manipulated to support the 1% or 10%, not themselves. This drives the left crazy, but apart from Gore's Current News they won't or can't counter with a quality, accessible media in many formats for the left.

The country's become much more conservative and uninformed in 30 years. I never saw the US so bad, such outright racism, sexism, homophobia, anti-immigration and ant-govt. beliefs. That fear increases when there's a declining middle class, great income inequality and instability like we have now. The turn to conservatism and the right began with Reagan. Things were so different in the 60s, 70s, 80s, even 90s although not perfect especially for gays. Lost my little brother in 1992 in NY. Such a great person, so brave, joyous, bright and loved by many. Our family would be a lot stronger and healthier if he were here.

Correct about hate being uneven and in pockets, but the South as a region of course has a long history of legal discrimination and white Xian majority population although demographics are changing, scaring the majority group perhaps. Plenty of bigots and racists exist in the North and West, also white supremacist groups. Occasionally there's a comment about intolerance and hate in their state, like Oregon or NY but those areas are not considered a problem overall. A poster up thread even says NY state has become more conservative. I know it, yet friends in CA, WA don't want to hear it or believe it. To see the liberalism and prosperity for American workers in the US I remember waning is terrible. I pray things get better through grassroots organizing and getting money out of politics!

Major Nikon

(36,814 posts)
80. It didn't work because it wasn't single payer, not because it was
Fri Dec 19, 2014, 09:10 PM
Dec 2014

Their plan still allowed for private insurance companies to operate in the state as primary insurers. So the question became how do you replace what is there without replacing what is there.

 

Zavulon

(5,639 posts)
85. Truth be told, I don't think single payer would work all that well here either.
Sat Dec 20, 2014, 12:55 AM
Dec 2014

If the government can't properly handle health care for its military, I'm not going to assume it can handle the entire country.

But the "free market" doesn't come close either. And the ACA, while it has helped a lot of people, screwed some others (it screwed me hard).

So why don't you ask those Florida assholes which system is more likely to bankrupt a family and destroy its future due to one bad day, one bad deal of the cards or one accident? Or better yet, tell them to shut the fuck up? I'd gladly take single payer over the ACA or what we had before it.

Jamastiene

(38,187 posts)
88. The VA was managed just fine back in the 90s.
Mon Dec 22, 2014, 06:57 PM
Dec 2014

When Bush took over in 2001, it went to hell in a handbasket with all the privatizing. They are in shambles at the VA now because of so many privatized programs. It confuses the hell out of veterans and the few doctors the VA does have are overwhelmed and inundated, because they understaff doctors. They understaff doctors because of the voucher program that is slowly, but surely privatizing the VA. It is not working right. It is a nightmare. The whole entire experience was better in the 90s. That is not to say the VA hospital my aunt goes to (and I always go with her) hasn't had great staff who try to help through the years. They still try to help, but admins have stupid policies set up to make the VA fail. Those are holdovers from the Bush admin, STILL trying to ruin the VA. It's like they WANT to make it fail so they can undermine the idea of universal healthcare. It's like two different worlds between the admins of the VA and the health care workers who are trying to make it work despite impossible policies set up to make it fail. The fairly recent history of the VA, and how it has been privatized slowly but surely to disastrous results, is a real eye opener to just how embedded right wingers are in positions where they can throw a cog in anything they don't like.

Fawke Em

(11,366 posts)
95. Interesting.
Sat Dec 27, 2014, 12:01 AM
Dec 2014

I'm Southern and have tons of Southern friends, but the vast majority of them are liberal (and, yes, that's what I got out of your headline as compared with your story - that all Southerners are GOP).

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