Can someone please explain to me why older Cubans are so upset about Obama's Cuba Policy?

[CatWoman]

Are they so anti Castro, or anti Cuba?

I must admit I just don't get it.

[KamaAina]

1. So anti-Castro

Some of them are irredentists who still think they're going to go back and reclaim the homes they fled from. Sadly, this includes the Bacardi family. In my old Dominican neighborhood in NYC, bottles of Bacardi rum bore the legend Casa fundada en Cuba (house founded in Cuba). In fact, the Bacardi family was a major force behind the Helms-Burton embargo law, which the repuke congress will still have to repeal.

[CatWoman]

2. so you are saying these people prospered under Batista?

and lost their property after the revolution?

[KamaAina]

4. Pretty much.

[CatWoman]

6. but Batista was a much bigger asshole than Castro ever was

I suppose he was just "their" asshole...........

[KamaAina]

8. You got it.

[m-lekktor]

9. the anti castro cubans are right wing, castro is communist.

right wingers don't like communists.

[librechik]

10. yes, he was

which makes one wonder about the sort of people who love him and his (casino corruption) times so much. And hate Fidel for taking away their sweet gravy train.

[hifiguy]

16. Not only that, Bautista was joined at the hip

to some of the most powerful Dons in the American Mafia.

[NoDoubt]

40. +1

[demosincebirth]

7. All the wealthy in Cuba prospered off the backs of the poor until Castro's revolution. Then

they jumped ship, so to speak, and high-tailed it to Florida with all or part of their fortunes.

[CatWoman]

11. I've watched some documentaries about the revolution

but didn't put together the obvious: the rich made out like bandits under the corrupt, evil Batista.

Thanks.

[jwirr]

14. Yes, which makes me wonder why we ignore the social changes that happened since the revolution.

Castro may have his faults but he took that island and gave everyone a chance to eat, work, have a home and medical care. He did what he promised to do. Today Cuba can send many doctors to help another poor country fight Ebola.

One of the experiences I had with Cubans was when boat loads of Cubans who had been in jail for one reason or another were brought to the US and just kind of dumped here. Our church took two of the men who soon moved on to other places. I still do not understand what that was about. Except emptying their jails so they would not have to support them and maybe causing trouble for the US.

[AngryAmish]

49. Castro bragged that he "flushed the toilets "

We have to end the dry foot policy to prevent that again.

[WinkyDink]

57. You mean a leader we were known to have attempted to assassinate didn't harbor LOVE for us?!

[azmom]

50. It was under the Carter administration

The movie scarface depicts some of what went on during that period.



http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariel_boatlift

[WinkyDink]

55. Since when does the US support such govts? (See: Chile; Nicaragua; Venezuela; et al.)

[Jackpine Radical]

18. You got it. Also, Havana was a wide-open gambling town like Vegas

only more tightly controlled by the Mafia. A lot of international corruption, money laundering, etc. that all went down the tubes when Fidel took over.

[Jim Beard]

28. I'm glad you posted this.

I was wondering if anyone other than myself noticed the correlation. You can say Elena Ross Lethan supported the dictator. Since they were the ones that had the power, why didn't they change the system? the truth is they liked it.

[Mr Dixon]

52. IMO

You nailed it, the rich fled the castro revolution with bags full of cash.

[BainsBane]

31. Many fled Cuba

and had their property expropriated. Some have family who were imprisoned or killed by the Castro regime. Some are the old ruling elite, but not all. There really are a great variety of Cuba exiles, Cuban-Americans in Florida. Some were in Florida before the Revolution, some left with their wealth right away, others initially supported Castro and they became disillusioned. Still others are exiles from recent decades.

[snooper2]

45. Don't forget the thousands and thousands or criminals and mental patients Castro dumped on Miami

in 1980

[ripcord]

75. People forget that Castro was brutal after his takeover

Google the Isle of Pines prison sometime.

[markpkessinger]

81. Was he any more brutal than Batista? n/t

[WinkyDink]

54. Yes. "Prospered" at the great expense of the peasants.

[sabrina 1]

60. Batista was a friend of the Bush Family also. Right Wing dictators, we love them in

this country.

They will always open up their countries to Predatory Capitalists who support them financially, see our support for one of the world's worst dictators today, Karamov of Uzbekistan eg, in order to prevent the people from rising up against them. We did it in South America, in the ME and in Cuba under Batista, see Haiti also.

Our foreign policies of supporting 'friendly' dictators creates revolutions when the people have had enough. See Egypt also.

Then when the dictators get ideas of their own, we 'take them out', see Saddam.

[jberryhill]

26. The Bacardi trademark is going to be a problem

Some months back, you may have noticed commercials featuring their Cuban heritage. They are fixing for a fight.

[RobinA]

66. They Hate Castro

with the white hot intensity of a thousand suns. I know very little about the details of this decades old issue, but I do know that.

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

3. Money,

many wealthy people lost their money when he came to power. Of course how they acquired the money in the first place is never brought up............

[spinbaby]

15. True that

Cuba was a playground for sugar barons, tobacco barons, corrupt politicians, and the mob while suffering from bone-crushing poverty and unemployment. When Batista fell, they all ran to Miami.

[hifiguy]

17. Don't forget the Mafia.

They literally ran Havana back in the day.

[CTyankee]

82. I remember that scene in "The Godfather" when Michael goes down to Havana...

[azmom]

58. The Cuban revolution was not only

About the Cuban elite, it was also about the greed from Wall Street.

[DawgHouse]

5. I asked my Cuban friend this very question a few weeks ago.

She was not born in Cuba but her parents were. We talked about the generational political difference among the Cuban population in Miami and I asked what exactly the "older" generation wants and she said "They want to go back. They want to go back to their houses as they were."

She said it was hard for them to deal with having the government come in and say "Oh you have four bedrooms but only two people living here so we are going to move four people into your house and they will live in the 'extra' rooms." They want to go back to their houses and regain ownership of their property.

[upaloopa]

12. Some of them lost property and businesses.

I am hearing that when Batista was in charge Cuba was the playground for the mob and lots of wealthy and some shady people.
Castro changed all that and when older Cubans migrated to Miami they left a lot of wealth behind. I think some feel they will get all that back someday.

[jwirr]

13. Many of the older Cubans living in the US are the ones Castro was fighting.

[Rex]

19. Why would you think all people from Cuba are pro-Castro?

They are not. A lot went right along with Americas Red Menace scare and moved here. They must still feel resentment toward Castro imo and are projecting that onto Obama.

[CatWoman]

21. I was not saying, nor do I think all Cubans are "pro Castro"

I should hope they are more "pro Cuba".

[Rex]

22. I think the ones you hear complaining the most are anti-Castro

and like you I would hope they are pro Cuba and don't let old grudges keep them from returning home.

[Starry Messenger]

20. As long as US interests declared Cuba a rogue state, it gave legitimizing cover to the claims of Bautistites

to be hapless victims of an aggressor who stole their "rightful property."

Diplomatic recognition makes this narrative a lot weaker. (Which is as it should be, imo.)

[kelliekat44]

23. Castro took their wealth (hugely from corrupt enterprises and organized crime), took their land that

they had taken from the indigenous people previously. Read the history. They will never forget or forgive what happened to them. Castro was like any of the rebel governments we have supported throughout history except he sought to help the poor people of Cuba instead of helping the elite. Hate goes far and the Cubans who came here immediately began to conscript our elected officials to go after Castro. (We forgot all about the dictators we had set up all over the world in the name of capitalism...Iran, Egypt, Pakistan, and all over South America). Under Baptista, whom Castro ousted, organized crime was rampant but revered...much like it was and still is here in the US. For some reason, organized crime figures, who kill, maim, extort, rape, steal, seem to be heroized by whites while petty thief's are villainizeds, scorned, arrested, indicted, and imprisoned. I guess because organized crime figures are mostly white they are more acceptable to folks. At any rate, the older Cubans who escaped here really hate Castro.

[cherokeeprogressive]

36. Castro took (back) their wealth... took (back) their land... "that they had taken from..."

"indigenous people..."

"...he sought to help the poor people of Cuba instead of helping the elite."

Care to tell me why Cuba isn't a worker's paradise... where there is no distinction between the proletariat and the bougies? The Castro Brothers have had free reign in Cuba, to institute whatever policies they chose. Why isn't Cuba a paradise? Please don't tell me it's because of the sanctions imposed by the United States. Cuba has been free to do business with the REST of the world.

Thought experiment here... how many would travel to Cuba for the purpose of relocating their life... with little or no money in their pocket?

[Demit]

42. The US pressured other countries not to do business with Cuba.

[Marr]

61. Compare it to Haiti and it is.

Last edited Fri Dec 19, 2014, 03:37 PM - Edit history (1)

Haiti is basically Cuba with uninterrupted US rule. In what ways is Haiti in better shape that Cuba?

[Cha]

24. Kick for now!

[applegrove]

25. They lost their businesses, their property

and their wealth. Added to this they lost their security and their human rights. Then they had to leave Cuba as refugees. Then they had to wait and watch as their relatives and friends back home in Cuba went through it for 50 years. Understandable that they are angry. But this embargo has done nothing but keep the Castros in power. The surest way to freedom and prosperity for the Cuban people is trade with the USA. The older cuban americans were hoping for a revolution where they could get back the property taken from their families so long ago. Obamas‘ policy is moving history forward.

[Odin2005]

34. Who gives a shit about Capitalist pigs' "human rights"?

What about the "human rights" of the people those capitalists exploited?

[applegrove]

37. Human rights are human rights. I‘m

not saying that there shouldn‘t have been some sort of correction, as there needed to be in most countries in the world in the 1960s. I understand the anger for an old life. I agree with Obama that trade and business will stabilize and democratize Cuba to the extent that it will almost not matter who succeeds the castro brothers. So this current generation of Cubans can have a decent life in Cuba. I hope that Cuban Americans get to participate too.

[NoDoubt]

41. +1

[Marr]

63. There was a correction-- the revolution.

That's one of the potential dangers for people who sit on the soft side of an exploitative, inequitable system.

[thelordofhell]

27. You all need to watch this.........very enlightening........

[Jim Beard]

29. I want good cheap SUGAR

and maybe we can get rid of corn syrup.

[UTUSN]

30. Everybody's covered it, but here's my local radio wingnut's version

Everything for him/them begins with CASTRO. They never mention BATISTA. http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025979846

[CatWoman]

43. after watching that video in response #27, I have to agree

I'm wondering did that gentleman prefer to have Batista back, rather than Castro?

[UTUSN]

47. They are what we would call robber barons, rapacious in their capitalism

It's rich vs (exploiting) poor. The specific greedy dictator (BATISTA) doesn't matter, whomever. There is always some new greedy a-hole to fill the slot.

Not a conspiracy theory, but after the Bay of Pigs, that generation of Cuban Exiles hated JFK and therefore all Dems because they believe JFK didn't give them enough (military) support - iow, go in there, shoot, reinstate the barons to power. Who knows, them and their Mafia and CIA partners might well have done the deed to JFK. Gloria ESTEFAN has said she was approached to be a CIA asset, and her family were fixtures at the Poppy White House. She says she turned down the job offer, but more than likely lots of the Gen1 Exiles didn't.

Bottom line, they always yammer about the CASTRO human rights atrocities, but totally ignore what their previous dear leaders also did. What's sad is the poor Cuban underlings who have been pummeled by whoever their dear leaders are.

When American big business is back, let's see whether their Cheap Labor role will be any different. Well, they will all have cell phones and sports events, the replacements for Religion as narcotics for the masses.

[Odin2005]

32. Because they were the ones profiting from the US-backed regime Castro overthrew.

[Major Hogwash]

33. Who cares what some old Cuban living in Florida thinks about it??

They only support the overthrow of the Cuban government.
Nothing else matters to them.
Yet, while they are living comfortably here in the United States, they don't give a rat's ass that the people of Cuba are suffering from OUR embargo of Cuba.

[flamingdem]

56. So true MH, the most striking thing is how the older exile Cubans in Miami

don't care about their brethren and sisthren (?) in Cuba.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

35. It's simple. They wanted to return as GODS.

[Ken Burch]

38. They can't accept that the greed-based, white supremacist Cuba of their youth

is gone, and gone forever.

They hate the fact that the workers there have free education and healthcare.

As for human rights? Well, none of them cared when Batista ran a police state-the people who ended up in Miami all cheered THAT dictator on. They never tried to get rid of him and they never protested any of his atrocities.

It's about the inability of a former ruling class to accept defeat.

[B Calm]

44. +1 Exactly

[CatWoman]

46. I recently found out that Batista was a mulatto

Skip Gates did a series on Blacks in Latin America.

Batista was one of several mulattoes who came to power in Latin America only to side with the cutthroat and vicious white supremacists.

[Ken Burch]

68. Yes, Batista was biracial(I'd advise against using the word "Mulatto", which means "little mule).

In power, he did nothing to fight white supremacism in Cuba.

[CatWoman]

84. that's the term Skip used -- not me

[Marr]

64. Batista took power in a coup, too-- and used executions and torture to

suppress dissent. But he was great for big business, great for robber barons.

[Ken Burch]

77. Here's the lyrics to a song by Ewan MacColl about the whole era, and what happened later:

Ballad of the Big Cigars(1968)

There's a little sun-drenched island in the Caribbean Sea,
It used to be like paradise, all fun and gaiety;
You could take a plane from Florida, just ninety miles away,
And live there like an emperor for fifty bucks a day.

Chorus: Happy days at an end ...
Uncle Sam, the poor old sod, ain't got a friend.

There were servants cheap and plentiful, the natives were in debt;
But for sportsmen on vacation there was faro and roulette;
And if you fancied other sports you flashed a dollar bill
And regiments of whores were there your pleasures to fulfill. (chorus)

The government took orders from the local C.I.A.
And always served the interests of the good old USA;
The natives they all knew their place and did what they were told,
Hotels were air-conditioned and the beer was always cold. (chorus)

One day in nineteen-fifty-six, the year was almost run,
Ten-thousand U.S. citizens lay browning in the sun,
When a certain hairy Cuban, regardless of the risk,
Lit a big cigar and burnt those U.S. arses to a crisp. (chorus)

Well, the gangsters and the bankers, all the con-men and the crimps,
The corporation lawyers, all the bully-boys and pimps,
Shouting, 'FREEDOM!' and 'DEMOCRACY!' (and other thrilling cries)
Flew back to God's own country like ten-thousand blue-arsed flies. (chorus)

One by one, Batista's outposts were attacked and overrun,
By a band of compañeros led by him they call The Man;
He lit a big Havana as they rested at the halt,
Then through Oriente Province went just like a dose of salts. (chorus)

Fidel puffed a king-sized Uppmann and Las Villas province fell;
He lit a Monte Cristo and Batista ran like hell;
Then he lit a Simon Bolivar and overran the south
And Big Daddy in the White House started foaming at the mouth. (chorus)

So the pimps and exiled gangsters who had run the gambling rigs,
Early on a summer's morning landed at the Bay of Pigs;
Fidel puffed a big Partagas, and then he shouted, 'Scram!'
And the Bay of Pigs invasion force was smoked just like a ham. (chorus)

Now, that little sun-drenched island's full of folks who smoke cigars,
You can smell the fine aroma in Peru and Panama;
And when miners in Bolivia rise up to claim their rights,
You can bet your life that Fidel's big Havana's burning bright. (chorus)

When he lights a Larrañaga, Guatemalan workers rise;
When he puffs a Castenado, Venezuelans organise;
And Colombian guerrillas in their jungle bivouacs
Use the glow of his Corona as the signal to attack. (chorus)

But the wind that blows from Cuba's cold in Washington D.C.,
Where Big Daddy's in the White House, sick with insecurity;
And every night he dreams he's roasting on a funeral pyre,
While Fidel's Ramon Allones sets the U.S.A. on fire. (chorus)

[Ken Burch]

39. Some of them may face a trial in Cuba now

for blowing up that Cubana jet.

[Jesus Malverde]

48. A lot of people lost property and in some cases lives as result of the cuban revolution.

Winners and losers. Its natural and not surprising some people are upset and bitter.

[Warren Stupidity]

74. A lot of wealthy people lost property. The Bacardi family for example.

As Cuba was massively poor, the vast majority of the people didn't lose any property, they had none to lose.

When you have a plantation economy, as Cuba did, along with a corrupt dictatorship, the inevitable revolution is indeed going to destroy the wealth of the land owning class, as it did.

[Agnosticsherbet]

51. They lost everything, became refugees, and were forced to rebuild their lives here.

I think their singular loss has so defined their lives that they can not change at this late date. When you add to that loss the fact that their votes and influence have been relentlessly courted for decades, by both sides, it feels like a betrayal.

They are greatly outnumbered by younger descendants who never knew Cuba, whose only point of reference is as citizens of the US.

[WinkyDink]

53. Anti-Castro. Were privileged, lost money in the Revolution, fled to US. Bitter ever since. See:

"Godfather II" and "Topaz."

[NCTraveler]

59. Many people in older generations suffered greatly under Castro.

Truly suffered. Not sure why people need to white-wash Castro's history. When people suffer they don't forget. There seems to be an entitled mind-set among many Americans when discussing Castro or other leaders stating that everything America does is bad and all others are good or victims of America. Castro is a serious mixed bag. Some of his bad is extremely bad. Some will just yell right wingers from the rooftops. Many of them are right wingers. Some are not.

[steve2470]

62. so true

Castro and his allies had a lot of people shot. I don't think all the victims of Castro were wealthy Batistas. That being said, I'm glad Cuba has improved greatly over the last 55 years.

[NCTraveler]

65. Not sure why some don't want to recognize the bad.

There is a lot of it. Stating that doesn't mean I'm not excited as can be about normalizing relations with them. I just feel the history of people like Castro needs to be remembered correctly. Not remembered as some false utopia.

[steve2470]

67. The same thing happened under Lenin

Some people were shot. Non-peaceful revolutions always affect innocent bystanders. I have no sympathy for Batista and the wealthy corrupt elite, but let's not paint Castro as this totally non-violent hero. We can recognize all the good he's done, and recognize the less wonderful side of the last 55 years also. It's easier to view history as all white or all black with no shades of gray. Our own history is a perfect example of that, definitely many shades of gray, with really bad stuff in the mix.

[NCTraveler]

69. Well stated. nt.

[markpkessinger]

83. You make a valid point . . .

. . . but I suspect that the tendency to ignore the less-than-utopian aspects of Castro's regime arises mostly in reaction to the fact that for 50 years, virtually all American public discourse concerning Cuba has focused on those apsects, while largely ignoring the horrors of the regime that preceded it.

[eissa]

70. Finally

Again, nothing is ever black-and-white. Were those Cubans who fled right after the revolution pro-Batista upset that they lost everything with the revolution? Yes, many were. Not all, though. There were many in the wealthy class who did support the revolution only to see everything they owned confiscated. And not all wealthy inherited their fortunes; many of them were the kind who worked hard for it. Castro simply threw the baby out with the bath water, and Cuban society suffered greatly for it. There was a huge brain-drain following the revolution -- not just the rich, but intellectuals who couldn't swallow that the revolution they so fervently supported was devolving from one based on Marti's vision for a socialist democracy to a one-party dictatorship.

Glossing over Castro's flaws does no one any favors. A dictatorship is still a dictatorship, regardless of where on the political spectrum its Great Leader falls on.

[NCTraveler]

71. Thank you for that. Much better than I put it. nt.

[steve2470]

72. +1 nt

[840high]

76. Good post.

[Warren Stupidity]

73. I've talked to two Cubans since the announcement and both are very excited.

Might I suggest that my sample bias is as bad as the Media's?

[Matrosov]

78. They're right-wingers n/t

[True Blue Door]

79. Old people live in the past. Not a judgment, just a fact.

They were driven from their homes by a dictator who hated and demonized them for having property when their countrymen were poor, and they remember it acutely. They also remember how Castro was such a sick fuck he tried to convince the Soviet Union to launch a preemptive nuclear strike on the United States, which would have ended the world.

But Fidel Castro is irrelevant now, and they can't understand that because their world was defined by him.

President Obama made the right decision for the future of all. Eventually some of them will get it. And some won't, to their own detriment alone.

[markpkessinger]

80. Because many of them have delusions of returning to their families' haciendas once Cuba 'falls' n/t