General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWhy didn't Utøya inspire the reaction that Paris has?
Be honest: did you have to Google Utøya? But I'm sure you remember it, once you did.
When will the male community finally confront androfascist violence?
Lucky Luciano
(11,257 posts)pampango
(24,692 posts)Lucky Luciano
(11,257 posts)Brickbat
(19,339 posts)And it didn't because of who perpetrated it: a homegrown white man.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)AFAIK all three of them were born in France.
Brickbat
(19,339 posts)A terrorist who looks and acts like the dominant culture is going to get a different reaction than those who are different than the dominant culture.
pampango
(24,692 posts)Recursion
(56,582 posts)panader0
(25,816 posts)Oh wait, that was in Africa...
Recursion
(56,582 posts)HappyMe
(20,277 posts)In 2014 Boko Haram killed about 10,000 people. The wipe out entire towns.
malaise
(269,057 posts)the lack of coverage of the latest madness in Nigeria is frightening but not surprising.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)thru out the week of discussion. mostly.
these are the lines i am thinking. cant help it. i see so many connections with the problems we have in our society today, how du (a community of people) address this over the last couple years. being a major voice in discussing women, i have had similarities given to me. and processing that.
thank you for bringing this up.
moondust
(19,993 posts)to Western civilization vs. random act of violence?
Recursion
(56,582 posts)Do you disagree?
moondust
(19,993 posts)But with the recent rise of ISIS barbarism employing radicalized Europeans and a sustained radical Islamic movement encouraging home-grown attacks with "results" so far in Australia and Canada, I think individuals see the danger and the need to stick together to defeat it.
When was the last time you heard a high-ranking French official declare that the country is actively "at war" with somebody?
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)I'm not sure I would agree, at least not in America, we have our own religious nuts now basically in charge of Congress and it wouldn't surprise me at all to see a similar type of person as President a couple of years from now.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,322 posts)Even those whose rhetoric he had followed (Pam Gellar, Gates of Vienna, Robert Spencer) scrambled to disassociate themselves when his writing was publicised. AQAP, however, has claimed responsibility for the brothers, and the hostage-taker at the kosher supermarket claimed he had support from ISIS, which is also claimed by some social media posts (though not, as far as I can tell, by anything 'official' from ISIS yet).
Thus there is a feeling that others also willing to kill like this are still out there.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)muriel_volestrangler
(101,322 posts)and attempting to kill.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)and 8 government officials.
I mean, "yes, except for the spectacular terrorist attack", they have a peaceful record.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,322 posts)the guy with the record is inside prison. He's not about to injure anyone.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)A lot of people with absolutely no history of violence, and a vanishingly small group of people who commit violence.
So... it sounds like you agree with me that Utøya is pretty much exactly like Paris, except Utøya had an order of magnitude higher body count.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,322 posts)You are pretending to not notice the words 'Al Qaeda' and 'ISIS' in my posts. You seem to be pretending to not notice them in media articles, too.
If you wanted someone to answer the question you posed in the OP, you should take the answer seriously.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)Alright. I name "Al Nordro" the thousands of fans who wrote Breivik letters. Let's neither of us ignore Al Qaeda or Al Nordro, agreed?
muriel_volestrangler
(101,322 posts)Recursion
(56,582 posts)I think Western anti-feminist violence is a much greater threat than Islamist violence, and I think the numbers back me up.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)I'd like to see those numbers you claim back you up. And do remember to include the 300,000 killed in Syria, the 3000 just killed this weekend in Nigeria when you try and say western anti-feminist violence is a much greater threat.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)Think about that.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)Since so many of those will come from Muslim countries that treat their women like slaves or non-persons.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)leftynyc
(26,060 posts)Yes.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,322 posts)It was anti-immigrant. He may have been personally anti-feminist, but he said he did it to stir up a race/religion war, and he did not target girls or women.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)You are denying that Breivik's attack was an an example of anti-feminist violence?
muriel_volestrangler
(101,322 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)and do murder women. ALL over the world. so, meh, i do not think much of the argument that one does not influence the other, in death of our girls and women.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,322 posts)Are you saying the Santa Barbara murders were inspired by Breivik? Breivik's targets were mostly children associated with the moderate left in Norway. He did not target girls and women in particular. His purpose was specifically political - anti-immigrant, attacking a party he thought had been too nice to immigrants, and hoping to stir up hatred. Rodger was personal, killing women and immigrants for the way he felt they treated him.
malaise
(269,057 posts)when they are dead.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,322 posts)and the other one has good documentation.
malaise
(269,057 posts)All I saw was someone covered up with all kind of crap claiming links to ISIS which is precisely what some folks want to promote.
The credible documentation is that one brother and the scumbag in the Kosher supermarket were in prison at the same time and the brothers were orphans.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,322 posts)http://gantdaily.com/2015/01/12/source-paris-kosher-market-attacker-was-in-u-s-terror-database/
djean111
(14,255 posts)One demented person, not a whole movement that we know is out there.
That being said, it was a bit weird to see all the demonstrating going on in Paris, at pretty much the same time 2000 people were killed in Africa, and the United States killed 60 or 80 people who just were unlucky enough to be in jail when a bomb hit it.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)It really, sincerely, truly is perceived as that there.
djean111
(14,255 posts)People feel no need to march against what they are told are isolated incidents or, in the case of all the death in the Middle East and Africa, "sad, but necessary, collateral damage".
Recursion
(56,582 posts)Fair enough...
oldandhappy
(6,719 posts)The Boko Haram thing in Africa is awful. Saw Salaman Rushdie on Real Time. He said the Boko Haram name means book bad which would mean that education is bad. Really hard to understand that attitude. Also really hard to understand the world not caring. And the blogger now being flogged in Saudi Arabia. Please email the embassy and protest!
treestar
(82,383 posts)True enough. No Muslims involved, no "terrorism."
And yet Brevik did have political-like reasons.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)I think they were pretty clearly political. He was obsessed with the political advances of feminism in the late 20th century, and with their alleged adverse affects on men. IIRC he actually quoted Lépine (of the Montreal massacre) briefly.
It was very, very clearly political violence.
treestar
(82,383 posts)Thanks for the review.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Did you have to Google it?
pampango
(24,692 posts)Europes right-wing extremism problem was hauled out of the shadows by Anders Behring Breiviks shocking attack in July 2011 which killed 77 people. While many government agencies still hide behind the lone wolves theory, a 2012 Europol report concludes that the threat of violent right-wing extremism has reached new levels in Europe and should not be underestimated. Another report by the International Centre for Counter-Terrorism in the Hague adds that least 249 have been killed in far-right violence in Europe since 1990, compared with 263 victims of jihadist extremism.
Europes far right parties have made significant election gains in the last few years. In France, Marine Le Pens National Front won 18% of first round votes in the presidential election this year, Greeces Golden Dawn party won parliamentary seats for the first time, and Geert Wilders Freedom Party was third largest in the Netherlands until this months election. These parties exist Europe-wide and spout localised variations of rhetoric that is anti-immigration, eurosceptic and islamophobic.
Populism and nationalism can lead to inflammatory social consequences even if introduced apart from each other. In tandem, they can cause major disturbances within a countrys political and social sphere. Furthermore, there are suggestions that the global financial crisis has aggravated Europes xenophobic tendencies ... The questions that need to be asked are whether widely-accepted government rhetoric about the failure of multiculturalism has created a favorable environment for nationalism and right-wing extremism, and also whether xenophobia is a tragic element of modern global society and a problem more fundamental than the current economic downturn.
http://www.fairobserver.com/360theme/populism-nationalism-and-globalisation-%E2%80%93-new-far-right
The report referenced in this article was done before the Paris killings obviously so the number killed by far-right violence and Muslim extremists may be about the same now. I always have hard time not including Muslim extremists as being part of the far right given their beliefs and willingness to use violence. I think reports like the one above would be cleared to divide violence between far-right Christian or secular groups and Islamic groups.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)so many perceive, have the idea that europe is so much more progressive than america. you know, art, nude beach, drugs, legal prostitution. so they must be a more open society.
and that is not true on the other hand. anyway, unbeknownst to me, my son was arguing this in his english class yesterday and he was the stand out with this opinion. even up against the teacher. he held his opinion and was much more vocal about his beliefs than what i thought he had in him.
so i found it interesting from different angles, listening to him tell me about the argument in class. it was fun. i always enjoy thinking.
pampango
(24,692 posts)have trouble adjusting to the large scale immigration and resulting cultural diversity that has resulted from some of the progressive government policies. From an American perspective it is interesting that countries with progressive domestic and foreign policies could still harbor significant numbers of racists and people with an anti-immigrant ideology.
The foreign-born population in France is about 11%, almost identical to that of the US where we are used to generations of mass immigration. (Of course, despite our history we have many on the right that fight immigration here too.) In Sweden it is even larger at over 14% and in Norway it is close to 15%.
Many of these countries were close to monocultural until a couple of generations ago. The adjustment from monocuturalism to multiculturalism is a difficult one for many people. This seems to have led to the rise of anti-immigrant, right wing parties in almost all European countries.
In Norway "the total immigrant population has risen from 57,041 in 1970 to 710 465 in 2012". "The main waves of immigrants since the 20th century have been legally grounded on refugee law. Groups were escaping persecution in their home country ..."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_Norway
Congratulations to your son for presenting and supporting a different opinion in class. It is great when they do things you did not realize they had in them.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)than the u.s. and in other ways which is pretty significant to me, it falls way behind the u.s.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,322 posts)Donald Ian Rankin
(13,598 posts)BeyondGeography
(39,374 posts)No explanation needed either.
salin
(48,955 posts)There were huge observances and vigils in Oslo. My mother and I watched on line as the King addressed the nation. Their refrain was similar - a vow that an act of great hatred and murderous violence was not going to take away their commitment to Peace.
Thus - I am thinking that you don't mean the reaction of the Norwegians compared to the reaction of Parisians -as the reactions were very similar.
I am guessing (but not sure) that you are referring to the escalating rhetoric here in the US around terrorism. Let's see the rampager in Oslo was Norwegian and thus not able to become part of the keep people in fear narrative (ala preelection Ebola!1! Unaccompanied Immigrants who will bring Ebola!1! etc. on Fox News and from Teaparty candidates) doesn't work the same. Although in the hours after the bombing rightwing talkers were speculating that the Oslo attacks were likely conducted by Muslim Terrorists.
Or are you referring to a different aspect of the reaction?
Retrograde
(10,137 posts)Why so much coverage of one event and not others? IMHO, the shootings at Charlie Hebdo let many main-stream news presenters and editorial writers to feel indignation that people [sort of] like them were targeted for bravely standing up in the face of pressure and sticking up for their beliefs and all that. The same main stream media people who refuse to - or are afraid to - confront the radical right themselves.
A second factor, I think, is that Paris is perceived as a highly civilized, sophisticated place where things like this just don't happen (unless one actually pays attention to the long history of tension between France and its former colonies in northern Africa). It's not like the US where shooting up strangers is a near-weekly occurrence. And since Paris is near the heart of Europe it's easier to get a lot of neighboring pols there quickly for a photo op.
Yeah, I'm feeling cynical today. I'd like to see similar outrage over Boko Haram's doings in Africa, or ISL's kidnapping and abuse of women in Syria and other countries.
Regarding your original question: my guess is that Norway caught the perpetrator quickly and dealt with him per their laws. I remember some TV coverage of the car bomb (?) in Oslo that was set at the same time, but since the massacre occurred at a relatively remote island and local authorities were in control soon after it happened that limited morbid photo opportunities.
WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)Reaction = absolute size, relative size, intent, or all?
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Never mind why we are ignoring atrocities in Africa.