Right. I'm doing this. I've been drunk enough to have woken up in bed with another guy

[sibelian]

with my clothes all over the floor in the living room after having got outstandingly drunk on my birthday without the faintest memory of what happened the night before. He said "YOU were very compliant last night" and giggled and wouldn't tell me what happened.

So. Rape?

[Kalidurga]

1. sounds like it

[sibelian]

2. How come I don't feel like a rape victim?

How come I don't feel all screwed up inside about it?

[Kalidurga]

3. I think it might take a while or...

sometimes when its not violent it doesn't seem like rape. Or maybe it's like a lot of "date" rape the victim might not feel like it was rape.

[sibelian]

4. It was 7 years ago, or thereabouts and I'm still in a relationship with him.

Shouldn't I have mentally collapsed under the strain by now?

[Behind the Aegis]

6. I understand your 'dismay' at some of the things said here recently.

But, your remarks are getting pretty offensive. I have been raped and I didn't "collapse under the strain." It doesn't mean I wasn't raped. Take issue with the situation without mocking those of us who have been victims.

[sibelian]

11. BTA why do you think I'm mocking anybody?

I'm describing myself, not other people. I HAVE collapsed under the strain of other things in my life. I don't think there's anything to feel but sympathy for people who have been knocked out of orbit by rape or anything else.

[Behind the Aegis]

14. The implication is anyone who has been raped "collapses under the strain" and if they don't...

...then was it really rape. Perhaps you didn't intend it that way, but it is how I read it.

[sibelian]

18. OK, I apologise to you, BTA.

I'm sorry. I did not mean to for my statement to bring things up like that, and I see what you mean.

It was really just a sincere question and I am TOTALLY not trying to imply that my experience should be taken as some kind of precedent. I want to know what people actually think because I'm looking at all this stuff about rape on DU and it means things for me and my life. I don't really want to think I'm a rape victim and I don't feel like one at all but - I hope you understand me - I know I can't possibly expect other people to reasses their own experiences in the light of mine, that's not how I see anything to do with sex and relationships anyway.

I hope you managed to find a way around your own experience and all is well.

I am truly just trying to fit myself in with what appears to be the prevailing understanding. I just... kind of DON'T. Maybe I should be worried that I'm making a stupid mistake.

It's just that this is the same guy that picked me up off the floor last year when I had toresign from my job because my boss was so awful that I was acually getting weird heat pains in my chest at the thought of even speaking to her. He fixed the whole thing up and when I broke down in front of him while explaining how work made me feel saying "I feel like I'm lying! Why do I feel like I'm lying? I'm telling the truth" he just held me and told that I was ill and not to worry and he would take care of me and to just rest. This is the guy who's supposedly a rapist.

I hope you see what I mean. I can't fit myself into all this stuff about rape. And if what people on this site are saying is true, then I SHOULD, shouldn't I?

[Kalidurga]

7. How you feel has nothing to do with what it is or was

neither does how your partner feels about what it is or was. Obviously you have moved on from that and don't have any permanent scars, congrats.

[Jackpine Radical]

60. Here's the deal as I see it, having worked with a fair number of both perps and victims:

There is an expectation in our culture that anyone who has been raped is bound to be horribly damaged by the experience.

I don't think this is quite accurate; the reality is a little more complex.

Some survivors seem to be relatively unscathed after the experience. Others can have their lives ruined. It's a spectrum, a continuum. Where a given victim ends up on that continuum of injury depends on a whole lot of factors unique to that person and to the situation.

Sometimes we aren't doing the survivors any favors by insisting that they must have been terribly injured, and even putting great effort into convincing them this is so. Only the person who had the experience knows what the nature and extent of the injuries is.

[msanthrope]

76. I think that's a complex, and great post. nt

[Jackpine Radical]

80. Thank you.

Obviously this whole area is fraught with emotion, and people tend to react accordingly, with little rational thought.

[Brickbat]

42. Because there is no one way rape victimes feel.

[sibelian]

52. Thank you.

THAT makes sense.

[Behind the Aegis]

5. It boils down to consent.

The "drunk" aspect can be a sticky wicket, but I'd bet dollars to doughnuts, more than a few people have had "drunk sex" and it wasn't rape. That said, if your partner passes out, then the 'date' is over. While I disagree, to some extent, about who can and cannot consent while intoxicated, an unconscious person can never consent. The only exception I can conjure is prior permission, which I wouldn't really accept as an affirmative defense.

[4now]

8. Most guys are only a six-pack away from

waking up naked in bed with a giggling friend.

[pnwmom]

9. If he had sex with you, yes. If he's just teasing you, no.

But rape isn't something to tease about, ever.

[Behind the Aegis]

16. Not a great start, but certainly a disappointing one.

[LuvNewcastle]

12. Maybe he didn't realize how drunk you were that night

until you woke up the next day saying you didn't remember anything. Maybe you got naked and passed out when you got to bed. Maybe he was blitzed too and doesn't remember anything and has just been playing with you all this time. There are many different possibilities. Whatever the case may be, there must have been a strong attraction once y'all woke up and saw each other the next morning, regardless of what happened the night before. If not, you wouldn't be together today. Count yourself very lucky. Most people don't have that kind of luck, I'm afraid.

[Spider Jerusalem]

13. You clearly don't think so.

That doesn't mean that someone else in that situation would feel the same way. Your subsequent description also makes it pretty clear this was in the context of an existing relationship. One wonders how you'd feel if you woke up in a strange bed with a stranger and no idea who they were, where you were and how you'd gotten there. You can't extrapolate from the context of that particular situation and decide "if I don't think that I was raped then this can't be rape regardless of the context and situation".

[Chemisse]

27. Best response yet.

[sibelian]

31. "One wonders how you'd feel if you woke up in a strange bed with a stranger and no idea"

who they were."

Hmf. THAT's the million dollar question, I guess. You're quite right, I don't know.

I'm really not trying to extrapolate anything, I'm much more trying to see what the accepted definintion of rape means for ME if something's happened to me that ought to be called rape that just doesn't make me, ya know, feel raped. What am I supposed to do or think?

As I said to Behind_The_Aegis, I certainly do not think that my little escapades can be taken as indicative of anything for other people. I would NEVER make that assumption just because my version doesn't mean to me what it seems like I'm supposed to think it does.

I hope you understand me. I want to know if I'm wrong. What am I suppose to call what happened? What's it's name?

I guess it's not your job to tell me, anyhow.

[smirkymonkey]

41. +1000

Well said.

[marions ghost]

73. yes, this sounds like an existing relationship--

which makes it different from outright rape I think--though I would call it rude and crude. If it's in the context of an otherwise good relationship, and the receiver doesn't feel violated, then move on I guess.

But I would wonder about the person who does this to another and then thinks it's perfectly fine. My warning flag goes up.

[ChosenUnWisely]

15. Did you contact the police? If not why not?

If you have time to post on the internets about it you are either trolling to cause trouble or you were not raped.

If you think you were raped contact the authorities ASAP.

[sibelian]

32. It was ages ago.

And my question is sincere. Of course I'm not trolling!

[Nye Bevan]

36. So anyone who does not call the police right away is not a true rape victim?

I know that's how some members of law enforcement think, but isn't that a bit of an outdated attitude?

[sibelian]

66. I think it's ridiculous attitude.

But I truly did not feel violated or abused in any way. So why would I call the police?

Obviously a different person's experience is different...

[olddots]

17. this is the weirdest thread. I've seen here

Please explain because its confusing .

[sibelian]

33. I don't know what to say to you

because I don't know which bit is the confusing bit.

[malaise]

19. I get your post

Not all drunken sex is rape

[alphafemale]

20. It's called coyote ugly for a reason.

If they both got drunk intentionally it is not rape,

If one drugged the other it is certainly rape.

[malaise]

22. Agreed n/t

[Ykcutnek]

54. Yep. Let's also define this as rape:

[sibelian]

34. ...my OP was a question! Honestly!

I don't know what to say.

[LuvNewcastle]

23. They say he knows just how to make

a woman feel relaxed.

[Inkfreak]

25. Jury results.

On Sat Jan 31, 2015, 05:40 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

They say he knows just how to make
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6159777

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Rape joke. That says it all, really.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sat Jan 31, 2015, 05:46 AM, and the Jury voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I do not see it so much as a rape joke as a sarcastic commentary upon a newsworthy issue.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: when is it ok to make s Cosby joke? please let the world know so we don't offend your delicate sensibilities. i bet people roll their eyes at you when you talk.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I am leaving this because this person is not joking about raped, as once can see in this post in the same thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026159669#post12

This is a commentary/sarcasm about the allegations about bill Cosby, which can be seen in the post he replied to which was hidden, but can still be read for context. It is not a rape joke.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I was going to vote hide at first, but then read the hidden post. I think it's more of a joke about how awful Cosby is. I'm on the fence, but am voting leave.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Without the previous post, which is hidden, difficult to get the context.
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explan

[LuvNewcastle]

28. Thanks for posting that.

I really didn't think that post would be controversial. I apologize if I offended anyone. Juror #1 had it right -- it's sarcastic commentary. I think rape and rapists are contemptible, and I don't think it's funny at all.

[Inkfreak]

24. I feel like if you think it wasn't, then it wasn't.

the nuances of each persons experience should be taken into account rather than blanket statements of what is/was/can be rape.

Obvious statements of fact aside. Such as having sex with a drunk, passed out woman without consent is rape.

[Nye Bevan]

37. And conversely, if you think it was, it was?

If the OP had decided to be vindictive and file charges, would it have been right for the other person to go to prison for rape?

[Inkfreak]

43. Absolutely not.

One hopes that a thorough investigation would exonerate the innocent one. Look, I'm not ignorant of the fact it can happen. With drinking all types of crazy shit can happen. In this story posted by the OP I'd say it wasn't. I haven't got all the answers, though. I'm just gonna police myself and teach my soon to born child as best I can about the risks of alcohol.

[mythology]

62. If you have sex with somebody who is drunk enough that they aren't going to remember it

then you are kind of taking your chances in that regard. That's why getting clear-headed consent is crucial.

You can't tell somebody to feel that they weren't violated. So if somebody who was drunk out of their mind tells you that they were raped after you had sex with them the night before, well, you did take advantage of somebody who wasn't in a position to freely consent. And if they feel violated, you did that to them.

You can say somebody wasn't legally violated or that you can't prove they were legally raped, but that's different than what they feel. Most rape isn't a stranger jumping out of the bushes. Most rapes are committed by somebody known to the victim. But how many of those guys consider themselves rapists? They make excuses to justify saying that the victim wanted it, or that they didn't say no, or that they owed it.

Until we as a society understand that you should always get somebody's affirmative buy in on sex, you're putting yourself at risk.

You don't need to have a checklist and get it notarized, but at least the broad strokes of what's okay and what isn't.

[marions ghost]

75. Good points

--which should speak to the type of guy who doesn't even consider the risks to himself involved.

[Jamastiene]

67. You are not saying that filing charges is vindictive, are you?

If the OP didn't feel like they were raped and has to ask if what happened to them was rape or not, I'm thinking they must be ok with their partner doing whatever with them while they are out cold. If that is ok with them, then I guess that's just their thing. A person who has been raped doesn't have to ask if it was rape. They fucking know they were raped. I know that from personal experience. You KNOW when you were raped. You don't have to ask other people if it was rape.

If the OP did feel like it was rape, filing charges would put it into the court's hands to figure it all out. Whether or not the other person goes to prison for rape (most rapists don't) isn't for someone on DU to decide. That is what we have the justice system for, even though it fails to do much to actually punish many rapists.

Filing charges wouldn't be vindictive, in that case. The way you worded that is really fucked up.

[Nye Bevan]

69. I should have said "falsely file charges".

Sorry I was not clear.

[Jamastiene]

70. That is much better.

I understand better now. Thanks.

[randome]

26. Kudos to you for injecting some nuance into the subject.

I've often thought we make things worse for a rape victim when we insist that she (or he) feel like shit afterwards.

Of course 'victim' is often as much of an outsider's label in the first place.

All too often it's an appropriate label, however, and thus the never-ending complexities.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"If you're bored then you're boring." -Harvey Danger[/center][/font][hr]

[Lee-Lee]

29. You were the one involved- so was it to you

Consent and intoxication is a sticky area. Because long time partners can enjoy drinking and still have consensual sex- otherwise the implication is that anytime even an established couple drinks they can't have sex.

On the other hand, if it was used to get you to do things you wouldn't otherwise- then maybe. But I have friends who will say "I only like anal when I'm drunk" and do it repeatedly when drunk. Is that rape, or use of alcohol to make the experience more enjoyable.

It all comes down to how you viewed the events the next day and days after.

And that's why rape of this manner is hardest to take to court sometimes.

[sibelian]

47. OK, that is kind of what I thought.

I have had numerous sexual exploits whilst somewhat inebriated. That one was the only time I actually couldn't remember what happened.

[Lars39]

30. imo, yes.

being described as "compliant" by someone who remembers all your actions while you remember none of them is the huge red flag.

[sibelian]

48. Well I feel bad now because I'm not 100% sure in my mind that was the word he actually used

It was a word that meant the same thing though, like "eager to please" or "cooperative" or something like that.


All these words have different overtones.

[Lars39]

49. The fact that he remembers and you don't is the red flag for me.

[sibelian]

53. Hm.

I need to think about what you said now.

[MineralMan]

35. As with many things, anecdotal evidence proves nothing.

Your experience and someone else's may not be identical. In fact, it's unlikely that they would be.

While you may not have considered what happened to be rape, and you may actually have consented, that has nothing to do with what has happened to others who did not consent or who did not have a relationship with the other person.

What you consider an interesting memory is irrelevant to what someone else has experienced.

[Nye Bevan]

40. The OP was not presenting "evidence", but asking the community a question.

Relating a personal experience and asking folks' opinions about it is not trying to "prove" anything.

[MineralMan]

44. It was an anecdote.

That's what anecdotal evidence is - anecdotes.

Everyone's experiences are different.

[Nye Bevan]

46. Yes, it was an "anecdote", as many posts are.

But it was not presented as "evidence" of anything.

When someone posts of their experience that was probably an actual rape, do you reply that it was merely an "anecdote"?

[madinmaryland]

64. I think the point of the OP is to point out that there is no "absolute" in this.

What bothers me the most is the absolutists who refuse to admit there ARE exceptions to everything and only want to see things in black and white, good versus evil, etc. I want to think that DU is better than that.

[Rowdyboy]

38. Sounds like a very interesting night for all concerned....

Happy anniversary?

[Nye Bevan]

39. I think the point is that those who claim that "all drunk sex is rape" are going too far.

How about this: if your partner is drunk, but you have a reasonable belief that they would not object to your actions when they become sober, then it is not rape (and such a reasonable belief would obviously be bolstered by an existing relationship, but would never apply in the case of a stranger).

Is this a reasonable approach?

[Rex]

45. Well how did you feel about it?

Did you feel raped, taken advantage of or felt like it was sex between two people? I don't know why you are asking people a question only you would know the answer to.

[sibelian]

51. TBH I just felt like he was ribbing me.

I felt amusedly annoyed with him for poking fun at me and not telling me what happened, and mildly (amusedly) sheepish, but in the end I wasn't even particuarly bothered. I just thought "Hmf! Bastard! I guess YOU had fun at least" and that, seriously, was it.

But you know, I know him and I probably had fun too. He's, uh, not particularly sinister...

The reason I ask (which I'm thinking maybe I shouldn't have done now) is because there have been posts on the site recently with very strong and determined and exact views about what exactly constitutes rape. Given my experience I found these very disturbing. If I am to take the assertion that drunk sex is rape then basically I'm a rape victim and possibly the fact that I don't see myself as one means there's something wrong with ME.

I think the way I see it is that there's more to rape than just flatly asserting that rape is an automatic consequence of certain circumstances. If I'm wrong about that, that's fine, but, for obvious reasons, I would like to know WHY I'm wrong about it.

[Rex]

57. I agree there is nothing automatic about it, but the next day might lead you to

think about if you were raped or not. I would say had you woken up and felt shocked or horrified, that might be a good indicator. That you felt amused by his coyness, I dunno. How do you tell another person how to feel after sleeping with someone? Did they mean to sleep with someone?

I think you will get different answers from people here, to me, no I don't think YOU feel it was rape. I think some here will tell you that it was and some will say it was drunk sex.

There is certainly nothing wrong with you since you don't feel like it was rape or am I wrong? I don't think you are wrong, I think it would be wrong to feel like you were raped, but didn't say anything about it. I think you don't think it was wrong, but still I would be annoyed too if someone had fun the night before and I couldn't remember anything.

I never encountered much problems with that as a young man, because I could not have sex when I was drunk drunk...the apparatus will not function drunk. I am glad you brought this up, because nothing is black and white. Consent is black and white, but if you have no memory of consent or not, maybe you were raped and maybe not. Wishy washy answer, but that is all I can think to say.

[Ykcutnek]

50. Probably not.

And it's scary that we have activists constantly trying to redefine these things instead of educating about the dangers of getting piss-faced around a group of people.

Shit happens. We've all done stupid shit when we're drunk. We're supposed to chalk it up to just another night of partying and go on about our lives.

People who want to ruin the lives of others for what they did when they were inebriated and without inhibition need to stay at home and read a book or something. You are a life-ending landmine no one wants drinking with them.

[ismnotwasm]

59. Rape happens?

Wow

[RedCappedBandit]

68. That is some ass backwards lunacy right there

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

55. I woke up with a woman, and neither of us could remember if anything "happened".

The best we could come up with was "maybe".

[ismnotwasm]

56. You decide. You.

I used to have regret sex too-- never ever called it rape. Now The time I, very drunk, jumped in a car with a group of young men, who then scared the shit out of me by demanding sex (whereupon I, sitting next to the door opened that motherfucker and threatened to jump out until they let me out, ruining my shoes on the ground flying by and everything)--that would have been rape of course. I have other, far worse examples.

I've woken up with some passed out asshole, thought oh shit and crept out the door taking the booze and extracurriculars with me. Was that rape? No, because I remember my embarrassingly unfortunate intent to get laid, even if I don't remember the act itself.

I also remember men buying me drink after drink, with the intent of getting me drunk and themselves sex. That never worked with me, because I was a hardcore drinker at one time. I'd ditch their asses and go find a friend I liked. But the intent was there, and it did happen to women. The women I ran around with didn't cry rape either- they knew they'd get blamed.

Now, This was more years ago than I like to think but two things are clear, nothing much has changed about drinking behavior and women are sick of sexual predators.

[stevenleser]

77. My usual response to folks who question rape and drunk sex is simple.

If it's your first time being intimate with someone, it's a really good idea to make sure they are completely sober.

After that, when it is clear they are into you that way and you are in some sort of relationship, having sex when you are both drunk or the other person is a little drunker than you is probably OK. Unconscious or clearly unable to consent is never OK.

But you notice, the vast majority of the situations where rape is alleged in a drunk or intoxicated situation is the first time that the folks involved have been intimate. That brings into question whether the drunkest person involved was really consenting to sex with that person. That should be obvious to almost anyone if they are honest and think about it.

[valerief]

61. Favorite group: Men's group.

Nuff said.

[madinmaryland]

63. Three posts in 90 days?

I have 254 posts in my Favourite Group.

[sibelian]

65. "nuff said"?

By YOU, yes.

[sibelian]

81. Just ignore them.

They're fools.

[Jamastiene]

71. A good rule of thumb is

if you were raped, you'd know it. Your situation is that gray line, the in between area. I'm no expert on that situation. In some cases, I do think it was rape. In others, the person doesn't object after finding out. You could say technically it could be considered rape, in a lot of cases, but if you don't object to it after finding out, then maybe in your case, it wasn't.

Maybe it just comes down to would you object if someone you are dating did that to you or not. If you do not object, then maybe it's no problem to you. Others might feel differently in the same situation with their SO.

I just think that if a person was raped, they would KNOW they were raped. That is just my gut instinct. I know I knew when I was raped. Then again, my situation was violent and involved a crowd of people cheering the entire thing on. There was no doubt about mine though, because it would have been considered a hate crime in a more civilized area of the country.

[sibelian]

74. Your experience sounds utterly horrible and vile.

I'm so sorry to hear about it. I hope you found your way around it...

I suppose a in my case lot of what persuades me that nothing untoward happened was how silly and good-natured it all was. I hear stories like yours and find it completely impossible to use the same word to describe what happened to you and what happened to me.

(((Jamastienne)))

[LexVegas]

79. Yes. nt.