Here's a REAL Physician!

[MohRokTah]

[safeinOhio]

1. Ya thing a few new cases of

polio might change their minds?

[Treant]

12. No.

Unless it's their special snowflake, the kid who got it obviously deserved it for some reason.

If it is their special snowflake, it was a terrible accident and society is required to support their awful decision not to vaccinate--as well as every special need of the child.

I don't object to supporting the child. But I think we should bankrupt the parents first for being complete idiots.

[msanthrope]

15. No--these assholes think the polio vaccine causes cancer, and that polio is not gone, just labeled

Last edited Mon Feb 2, 2015, 04:16 PM - Edit history (1)

as "menningitis" now.

[Lucky Luciano]

19. OMG - I am scared to verify your post. Will make me throw things. nt

[xmas74]

52. I haven't heard that one yet.

What a bunch of a-holes.

[Orrex]

54. Careful--you'll hurt their feelings.

And isn't that the most important concern?

[xmas74]

56. I worked in a state run hospital with individuals who were developmentally disabled adults.

I saw what a lack of vaccinations could do to a person. Some were because they were born before the vaccine was available while others weren't given for various reasons.

As I said to another poster: spend a day there with the individuals and they'll be begging for someone to give their precious snowflakes every vaccine they can get.

[Orrex]

57. Music to my ears

I work with an otherwise fully functional woman who is unshakably certain that vaccines are a deliberate poison meant to harm their recipients. No amount of evidence or reality will sway her. She would dismiss your own experience as "an exception" or "a misinterpretation."

It's a derangement, and there's little hope that kind words and patience will overcome it. Even here on DU the sentiment is sadly pervasive, alas.

[xmas74]

58. I have a child.

She has received every vaccine I could get. Why? Because I saw what could happen without them.

Sometimes parents would visit their children at the hospital. (Their children were in their thirties-sixties at the time.) One father, whom I'd spoken with over the years, realized that I was pregnant. He pleaded with me to get my baby vaccinated, especially for MMR. He said that if they'd had access to MMR his son wouldn't be in that hospital. (His son caught the measles from the older school age sister and it was bad from the beginning. It turned into encephalitis, which caused permanent brain damage. He was an extremely bright, what most would consider gifted, five year old before. After, he had the mental age of a two year old-and he never grew out of it. He was nearly forty when I began caring for him.)

I've always remembered him pleading with me to do it and I took his advice to heart.

[GP6971]

59. I also saw

what unchecked disease could do. I grew up with a polio victim...it wasn't nice

[xmas74]

60. I worked with a dispatcher who had polio.

She was wheelchair bound and swore herself to be "one of the lucky ones".

[GP6971]

62. My experience was with a much older person......

my parents age. He was able to compensate. In college he as on the rowing team. To this day, I've never personally seen wider or stronger shoulders. He was a true inspiration to all us kids.

Do parents today really want to expose their kids to the dangers out there? I hope not.....my first grandchild was born 2 months ago and if she's not vaccinated, there will be he'll to pay.

[xmas74]

69. My child was vaccinated against everything under the sun.

That's one thing I knew wouldn't wait-vaccinations. In my mind they had to be done and as close to schedule as possible.

[brush]

2. That's my kind of doctor too.

He puts up with no anti-vaxxer nonsense, and rightly so.

He knows what's at stake and it is not that one 'special' kid might hurt for a few seconds from a shot or that 'special' kid might get autism from a vaccination (medically proven foolishness).

[tridim]

3. Good, I hope he is as frank about the dangers of Statin drugs and overuse of antibiotics. nt

[AlbertCat]

4. overuse of antibiotics

I have never met a doctor...either one I'm going to or friends of my father...who was a surgeon.... who wasn't adamant on the dangers of the "overuse of antibiotics."

[tridim]

5. Several neighbors are currently taking antibiotics for their average winter colds.

Doctor prescribed as a "precaution".

It's a huge problem even if you don't see it.

[AlbertCat]

9. Doctor prescribed as a "precaution".

And it will be OK if the patients take THE ENTIRE COURSE...even if they feel fine.

The main prob is patients not following the instructions and stop taking the full course when they feel better.

[F4lconF16]

34. A precaution for a viral infection?

The issue is not that, in this case. The issues is that they don't have a bacterial infection at all.

[mopinko]

81. actually, that advice is changing.

i have a medical school faculty doc, which i love because she is ALWAYS on top of what's happening in research.
we had this discussion not long ago, because i have asthma and a cold will turn into an opportunistic infection on me more often than not.

she says that part of the problems is actually this. she says that we are overtreating w antibiotics. that the usual 10 days is probably too long. tho we should treat past the place where people feel well, a day or 2 past is probably enough.

[MohRokTah]

10. My wife gets acute sinus infections that develop from minor issues like colds.

If unchecked, it develops into pneumonia which has happened four times in the fifteen years we've been married.

There are occasions when the doctor will prescribe an antibiotic as a precaution for her. We see the same doctor and the doctor would NEVER give me a similar prescription even if I had a worse cold than my wife.

Each case is different and I cannot begin to know your neighbor's conditions.

[progressoid]

14. For colds?

[OldRedneck]

21. Who says it's an average winter cold?

I'm an Advanced Life Support EMT with a rural Virginia rescue squad.

Each winter we run 3 - 5 people to the ER with pneumonia, some of them in serious respiratory distress because their "average winter cold" was, in fact, early pneumonia and they elected to stay home at self-medicate. A course of antibiotics would have prevented the pneumonia.

[Orrex]

27. Why is it important for you to derail a serious discussion of an ongoing medical crisis?

By all means, start your own thread if you're so eager to throw up tangential distractions. This thread is about one pediatrician fighting against an army of ill-informed idiots.

Further, the amount of antibiotics a human will use in ten lifetimes is a drop in the bucket compared to the amount that will be pumped into a single factory herd in a single season. This is to prevent one infected animal from infecting 500, even if those animals are healthy and therefore don't "need" antibiotics.

In short, even if your story is true as told, the impact of your neighbors taking antibiotics will be somewhere between zero and infinitessimal.

[erronis]

33. Bravo. I wish more of us would call out these hijackers

[IronLionZion]

41. Medical treatments don't work the same for everyone everytime

it's often try something and see if it works, if not then try the next thing.

[LiberalArkie]

6. My doc is the same way. But she knows that I don't need the statin when I am going to the gym.

But I do need them when I stop going for a while. She will give me antibiotics to me when I catch the flu or what ever is going around because it ramped up to something else (usually pneumonia). Bad lungs from bad asthma was a child and now coming back with a vengeance now that I am 67 and mitral valve problems.

[MohRokTah]

8. Given the pediatric practice he described, I'm certain overuse of antibiotics is a HUGE concern

Statins, not so much. I've never heard of a pediatric patient being prescribed statins.

[tridim]

13. Just wait. I'm sure big pharma has big new plans for their cash cow. nt

[Spider Jerusalem]

40. He's a paediatrician, I wouldn't expect that he would prescribe statins as a matter of course.

[Ykcutnek]

7. They should amend the Hippocratic Oath to include this status. nt

[SunSeeker]

11. Wish my pediatrician's office had the same policy.

California really does need to change its law to delete that bullshit "personal belief" exemption.

[Crunchy Frog]

16. Sounds like my kids' first doctor.

Until we mutually fired each other.

[pnwmom]

17. I agree with the CONTENT of this message -- but his authoritarian, rigid tone would put me off.

If he sounds like this on vaccines, he could take this attitude on other health decisions, too. And back up his "recommendations" with threats to call CPS.

No, thanks. He's right on his pro-vaccine stance, but he comes across as a control freak -- not my kind of doctor.

Here's an example of a pediatricians' statement that is very firm that sets a better tone, IMO.

http://aapnews.aappublications.org/content/29/5/26.2.extract

[dissentient]

22. Yup, me neither. Some doctors are arrogant asses

this guy sounds like one of them.

[jeff47]

23. Yes, it's important to be polite when asking people to not murder others. (nt)

[pnwmom]

24. I think it's important for a doctor to address patients with respect. The way he wrote this

would make me question whether he can.

[jeff47]

25. And I believe the tone is appropriate, given the harm being caused.

"Please sir, if it isn't too much trouble, would you consider no longer shooting those bystanders? I realize it is an entertaining hobby for you, but the bullets are causing a great deal of injury to them. Resulting in great pain and a very real risk of death. I really think you should stop shooting them. If you'd like, we could discuss the matter further, but I would strongly prefer you cease your efforts while we have that discussion. You don't want to? Alright, perhaps we could continue to discuss the matter if you fired less frequently so that we have an easier time hearing each other. Would you be amenable to such a compromise?"

[pnwmom]

26. I don't. He's addressing this not to anti-vaccine people, but to every "you" who is in his practice

and to any "you" who might consider him.

The tone marks him as rigid, arrogant, and not a good listener. It's probably a good warning for anyone thinking about him as a doctor, though. Adults who want to be treated like children will be drawn to him.

Here is another very firm statement, but that talks about what "we" believe, and what "our" practice is, and sets a much better tone. (In general, "I" and "we" statements are much better than "you" statements in fostering good communication.)

http://aapnews.aappublications.org/content/29/5/26.2.extract

[jeff47]

29. The point of the comparison to a mass shooting

is that sometimes people really are causing that much harm.

About 150,000 people die from measles every year. That's one dead person every 4 seconds.

That's an Iraq war, every single year (using official estimates of Iraqi dead). Anti-vaxxers want to crank that number way up out of utter ignorance.

They deserve just as much contempt as you've dumped on W and company. At least W and friends only did one Iraq war.

[TNNurse]

32. It did not bother me

He is saying that he will protect the fragile in his practice and he does not want to risk that by having to explain it to someone in his office with an unvaccinated child. Measles could kill one of his patients and he is determined to prevent that.

He should not have to explain to parents the importance of child seats in their cars, unsecured guns and medications in the home. Or are we becoming a nation of ignorant fools who refuse to listen and learn?

[pnwmom]

36. As you are a nurse, you've probably been exposed to your share

of M.D.eities. A few otherwise capable doctors lack a good bedside manner.

So I'm not surprised that it wouldn't bother you.

[BobbyBoring]

37. We have become a nation of ignorant fools

And it's all by design.

[TNNurse]

38. Rand Paul says "vaccines cause severe mental disorders"

He may be speaking from experience. About himself.

[marym625]

76. +1

[dflprincess]

39. I imagine the "yous" in his practice who have children who cannot be vaccinated for medical reasons

appreciate that he's protecting their kids and laying the law down to those who choose not to vaccinate.

[whathehell]

67. Exactly..Thank you.

Another dick doc.

[AlbertCat]

35. address patients with respect.

Oh boo hoo.....My doctor has the nerve to think he knows more about medicine that I do!

[whathehell]

68. Um, yeah..

People who let professionals disrespect them because they "know more than they do"

on a given subject, must have a very sad level of self-esteem.

[AlbertCat]

85. Um, yeah..

Well, you're free to shop around for a doctor who has respect for woo and pseudo-science.

[whathehell]

86. So only the rude respect real science and standard courtesy is "woo"?

What an absurd assumption.

[AlbertCat]

87. What an absurd assumption.

It is absurd.... why would you make it? I mean, I never said such a thing!

[whathehell]

88. LOL..

Of course you.did.

[ailsagirl]

61. .....

[Pacifist Patriot]

28. It's hard to tell from the screen shot, but it doesn't seem to me...

to be a post on his practice's page. It looks like a personal rant, possibly in response to someone else. I don't think we can assume how he would present the information on Facebook is how he interacts with his patients. I honestly don't know why, but it really seems more like someone torqued him off and he's responding rather than initiating. I could be wrong.

[Orrex]

31. Well, that's simply a matter of ego

I agree with the CONTENT of this message -- but his authoritarian, rigid tone would put me off.

Why? Is his message less correct because he didn't set it to pleasant music and waft incense through the air? The guy's not selling vacuum cleaners; he's trying to convey urgent medical information to peopole who refuse to listen. If they don't like his tone, then that's their problem. He's already invited them to seek another doctor if they don't like his policy. I'm sure he'd be happy to see them leave if they don't care for his tone, too.

I'm sure that he has dealt with enough asshole parents who don't listen to the "nice" doctor message, and he's fed up with trying to speak to the willfully deaf.

http://aapnews.aappublications.org/content/29/5/26.2.extract

Apples and oranges. That's a formal statement being prepared by a team of doctors and lawyers and doesn't establish policies for any particular doctor or practice, while Ginsberg's statement is a declaration of policy for his own practice.

Far from authoritarian, I find his tone measured and understated, compared the bullhorn idiocy of the anti-vax crowd.

[pnwmom]

46. No, the statement I provided is the statement of a particular practice of doctors in Exton, PA.

It's right on their website:

http://www.allstarpediatrics.com/AllStarImmunization.html


And I think they did a better job than he does. For one thing, they convincingly provide the details behind their position, which he fails to do. Instead he just comes across as an arrogant dictator who doesn't think he needs to have reasons other than "because I said so."

But again, that's a good warning for parents who want a pediatrician who will be their partner in getting good health care for their children, not an egotistical person who can't listen. A doctor like that once missed a very serious bacterial infection in my toddler (told me it was nothing -- just the "virus going around&quot , but fortunately I went back and another doctor -- who was a better listener -- ordered a blood test and diagnosed my child before it was too late.

[Orrex]

47. Again, that's ego.

In point of fact, he knows more about this than you or I do, and he knows more than the idiot parents who don't vaccinate their children. It is entirely appropriate for him to address the issue in the tone he's demonstrated here. He won't get anywhere by flattering the sensibilities of self-taught experts who studied at the University of Google.

You're rejecting the doctor's entirely reasonable and well-justified position simply because of its tone. It offends your ego because you don't think that you deserve to be talked to like that. Further, this is one statement that he's making after what I'm sure is a long line of statements that have fallen on willfully deaf ears. I don't blame him for setting aside politeness and stating the truth bluntly.


Alternatively, if you're not a crazed anti-vaxxer, then he's not talking to you like that, so it shouldn't be a problem.

[pnwmom]

48. How do you know he isn't addressing this to all parents in his practice, or potentially

in his practice, and not only "crazed anti-vaxxers"?

My children have had every vaccine their doctors have recommended, and on time. (And I've had adult vaccines to protect my granddaughter.) So, no, I am not rejecting his position because of his tone. I am saying that his tone shows something about the style of his practice; and even someone who agrees with him about vaccines might be leery of going to a doctor who, for example, threatens to report his patients to CPS if they disagree with his advice.

[Orrex]

49. You're picking a ridiculous fight.

You're more upset about a doctor hurting some parents' fee-fees than about parents willingly putting their children at risk of measles, mumps, rubella, chicken pox, polio, and the like. There is simply no sensible argument to be made in favor of your position.

Suppose you're sitting on a crowded bus and the driver pulls over and yells at everyone on the bus who's smoking. If you're not smoking, then he's not addressing you.

Similarly, if you're not a parent who stupidly refuses to vaccinate your children, then Ginsberg isn't addressing you. And if you still think that he's addressing you, then that's your ego refusing to accept that everything isn't about you.

I am not rejecting his position because of his tone. I am saying that his tone shows something about the style of his practice.

It absolutely does, and he should be commended for it. His tone states very clearly that he doesn't bow down to the idiocy espoused by Dr. Jenny McCarthy and her ilk. I would value such a forthright pediatrician and would be happy to have him treat my children.

[pnwmom]

50. You are the one picking a fight. I made the original statement that you reacted to. You like

bossy doctors, I don't. Oh well.

[Orrex]

51. Your assessment of him as "bossy" is a demonstration of your ego.

You refuse to accept that he knows more about the subject than you do, so you react with defensive hostility. You attack the messenger because you don't like the message, that non-vaccinating parents are an unacceptable danger to their children and other people's children. You frankly place greater value on ass-kissing than on truth-telling, and you picked the fight by launching a classic ad hominem against Ginsberg because you have no basis for refuting his entirely correct and reasonable policy.

Further, "bossy" is a petulant term to use here. Our pediatrician is a woman; if I called her "bossy" for making such a statement, then I would be criticized for attacking an assertive woman.

[pnwmom]

64. Wrong. His "because I said so" attitude coupled with his "you" statements are a demonstration of his

Last edited Tue Feb 3, 2015, 04:42 AM - Edit history (1)

bossiness.

I explicitly said I am NOT disagreeing with his policy. But his poor "bedside manner" wouldn't appeal to me as a parent. And if he is a poor listener, as many doctors with large egos are, he runs the risk of making a serious mistake with his young patients.

[whathehell]

65. Agreed. His policy is correct, but his rudeness sucks

and would turn me off in a nanosecond. There's this thing called "emotional intelligence" and he doesn't have it.

[Orrex]

71. If you agree with his policy, then he's not addressing you

He's addressing the generic "you," representing a non-vaccinating parent. Your refusal to accept this is a result of your ego.

Also, he's an experienced doctor discussing the policy of his own practice. It's not "because I said so," but rather "because this is the safest policy, and I'm sick of arguing about it with Dr. Google's acolytes." He's dealing with idiots, and if anything, his tone is understated.

You're assuming that he's a poor listener because you don't want someone telling you an unvarnished truth without first protecting your feelings.

You're getting upset about the wrong things.

Talk to one of his pediatric cancer patients, or the parents of an immune-compromised infant in his care. Ask them if they'd prefer a kinder, gentler doctor or one who values the safety of his patients over bullshit pretentions of courtesy.

[whathehell]

66. No, it's a demonstration of his.

Don't like the word "bossy"? Try "rude", and btw, his message is fine with me, it's his manner and total lack of

courtesy that suck.

[Orrex]

70. He's dealing with life-threatening idiocy

And you're complaining that he hasn't read Emily Post. You're getting upset about the wrong things.

His tone is reasonable and appropriate.

[whathehell]

72. No, he's stating a policy

while assuming, it seems, that everyone is an "idiot", and his nasty tone is nothing

but arrogant self-indulgence.

[Orrex]

73. Call him and tell him. Otherwise you're just pissing on a tree.

What you hastily dismiss as "arrogant self-indulgence," a more reasonable person will rightly see as an assertive response to the pervasive anti-vax bullshit infecting our media and culture. He's taking a firm stand in the interest of his patients' health, and you're mad about his tone. That's some fucked up priorities.

You're getting upset about the wrong things.

[whathehell]

77. Aw, gee..Lose the argument or something? Personal attacks like yours are

emblematic of losers.

Sorry, bro, but if expressing divergent opinions is "just pissing on a tree" discussion boards like DU
are worthless...Come back when you can keep your emotions in check and think straight.

[Orrex]

80. On the contrary, there's no argument here. You're wrong, and the doctor is right.

Sorry, bro, but if expressing divergent opinions is "just pissing on a tree" discussion boards like DU
are worthless...Come back when you can keep your emotions in check and think straight.

Nice try. Divergent opinions are subordinate to material fact, so I have no obligation to respect bullshit simply because someone believes in it. Also, since you've already indicated that you can't tolerate harsh truth, it's no surprise that you would react to my straightforward statements with your petulant defensiveness.

My thinking is unimpaired on this issue expressly because it's not clouded by "unchecked emotions." Contrast that with the idiots who don't vaccinate their children, or with the delicate flowers who get more upset about a doctor's tone than about those non-vaccinating parents. And instead of recognizing that you're getting upset about the wrong thing, you're upset that someone isn't being sufficiently polite to you.

That's some fucked up priorities.

[whathehell]

83. LOL...What part of "I agree wiith his policy" do you stlll not understand?

The only "divergent opinions" expressed by me concern his disrepectfui manner and that IS a matter of

"opinion". not of "material fact", so I'm afraid you've missed it once again.

By the way, there IS no question of "priorities because it's not an "either or" situation. Most people understand

that one can deliver a firm message without being a douche. You and the doc, otoh, may have a priblem with that, lol.

Good luck with the binary thinking..If and when you evolve beyond it, let us know. Until then, you can get

comfy on my 'I" list. Buh bye.

[Orrex]

84. If that's all it takes to get on your Ignore list, then you have very thin skin.

But if you're no longer reading, then I'll be glad that I don't have to phrase my posts in deference to the lowest common denominator.

What part of "I agree wiith his policy" do you stlll not understand?

I understand you perfectly. Specifically, I understand that you're upset that the doctor isn't candy coating his opinion about non-vaccinating parents. Thin skin indeed.

[riderinthestorm]

42. My 27 yr old daughter was a home birth. The midwives TOLD me which pediatrician to use

Because some pediatricians would report a woman to CPS who had "knowingly endangered" her child by having a home birth.

Now that home births are gaining more widespread acceptance, and having a baby delivered by a licensed nurse midwife is more common, it's not an issue anymore.

But pediatricians aren't universally great, you're right.

I fell in love with an Indian Muslim pediatrician who was the perfect fit for our family. The best balance of western medicine with an acknowledgement that practices like home birth are absolutely fine.

So lucky.

[bhikkhu]

43. It sounds like he's telling the truth, very clearly

I've never had a problem with that. I know people that do, who'd prefer shades of grey and rather be persuaded or led gently but firmly, to a position where they feel they make the right decision of their own free will. I'd always just rather hear the truth.

[BlueMTexpat]

82. Amen to that!

To me, his post sounds less "rude" - or whatever those who take issue with it wish to characterize it - than extremely frustrated with people who not only don't "get" it, but who refuse to "get" it, no matter how much logic or evidence is provided to them in a perfectly reasonable manner.

He has some very fragile patients and is making it clear that those who refuse to "get" it about the importance of vaccines are not welcome in his practice. I personally feel comforted by that, no matter what his tone.

I would much rather have someone like that be a doctor to my children's children, etc. than an equivocator who would allow those who choose not to vaccine their children because of personal belief, rather than because of a legitimate medical reason that has been verified by a non-quack medical professional (I realize, btw, that such legitimate instances do exist), to be part of his/her practice. In cases of public health, where consequences potentially affect us all, "personal belief" alone is a luxury, not a right.

If all pediatricians insisted that parents vaccinate their children (less my caveat above), we would not now be having this problem, nor would we be quibbling about tone.

[MannyGoldstein]

63. +1 nt

[marym625]

75. It is a nice letter

But I don't think there is anything wrong with the one in the OP. He sees not vaccinating children as child abuse. He should. He let it be known in no uncertain terms. I applaud it.

[spanone]

18. k&r...

[OldRedneck]

20. YEEEEHAAAAA!

Now that's one Kick-Ass doc!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[shenmue]

30. Saw this on Twitter last night

Also on Little Green Footballs. Very proud of this doctor. Almost makes me wish I could go back to being a kid again, just so he would help me.

[Marrah_G]

44. Good for him

I put anti-vaxxers right up there with the vatican telling Africans it's a sin to use condoms and they don't work anyway. It's fucking dangerous.

[obxhead]

45. We must all participate in the greater good.

The moment we think we are more special than our neighbor is the exact moment we decide to discard every value the US was founded on.

[Barack_America]

53. The CPS part is a bit much, IMO...

..but he's bang on with the rest, and I applaud him for speaking out.

[Orrex]

74. Wrong--haven't you read the thread?

He's a mean meanie who's mean with an arrogant and self-indulgent bedside manner, and he doesn't listen to his patients.


Come on, Skittles. Try to keep up!

[brooklynite]

78. Well, you can't trust a DOCTOR on these matters...he's in bed with "Big Pharma..."

[Nay]

79. Excellent! Up against the head with a 2x4! I'd go to this doc! nt