David Axelrod: Obama Was 'Bullshitting' Opposition To Gay Marriage In 2008

[kpete]

David Axelrod: Obama Was 'Bullshitting' Opposition To Gay Marriage In 2008

Time magazine reported Tuesday that the longtime Obama confidant said in his new book, "Believer: My Forty Years in Politics," that he counseled then-senator Obama to soften his position on gay marriage for political reasons.

.................

Obama had stated his support for legalizing gay marriage on a 1996 questionnaire while running for the Illinois state Senate. But he said repeatedly on the campaign trail in 2008 that he believed marriage should be between a man and a woman.

Publicly stating opposition to gay marriage took its toll on Obama, who Axelrod wrote "routinely stumbled over the question when it came up in debates or interviews."

"I’m just not very good at bullshitting," Obama told Axelrod after one of those events, as quoted by Time.


http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/david-axelrod-obama-bullshitting-gay-marriage

[GeorgeGist]

1. Well that explains Obama inviting Rick Warren to speak at his inauguration.

[outside]

38. Hillary

was also against same sex marriage at that time and I saw her speak at Rick Warren Saddleback church in 2007. President Obama and HRC both lied about that subject.

[cui bono]

51. I don't think they lied. They both see that they have to go with the times.

People don't care if there is same sex marriage anymore for the most part. If they stuck to being against it they would be siding with the minority now, especially if you only take the Dem Party.

They are politicians through and through and they say what they need to at any given time. Obama only came out for it after Biden said he was fine with it. If Biden hadn't opened his mouth would Obama have even thought about changing his stance?

[outside]

58. David Axelrod

said the President was "bullshitting" and the Ax ran the campaign. The President only changed his tune when he needed money from the LGBT groups.

[cui bono]

62. If he really was lying then he purposely aided in the oppression.

I agree that he changed what he said for political expediency.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

2. This is going to cause some cognitive dissonance.

Among the people who say that people who lie aren't fit for office, while still supporting President Obama. One of the current anti-Warren memes is that if she did decide to run for office finally, that would make her a horrible liar for saying she has no intention to run and isn't running and is thus 'ineligible for office'. But besides this, we've seen that the current favorite 'anti-Warren' candidate is 'Bosnian sniper fire dodging' HRC.

I think they're going to have to give up on 'lying makes you ineligible for office', or never see another person ever elected President.

[MohRokTah]

4. For the record, I've never said that a bout Warren.

I am 100% convinced she is not running, though. I also firmly believe no amount of wishful thinking will alter the fact that Warren is not running.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

5. I'm convinced she isn't currently running.

Just as HRC isn't running.

I'll wait until the filing deadline or an earlier 'Running' announcement to be 100% sure.

Not that I can vote for either in a primary, since I'm a Dem Socialist, not a Dem.

[MohRokTah]

6. Since you are not a Democrat, whether or not she runs is meaningless to you. eom

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

8. Hardly.

Who ultimately becomes President is as important to me as it is to you. Thus, all party candidates are important until such time as they are knocked out of the running.

[MohRokTah]

9. Well, Elizabeth Warren has emphatically removed herelf from the running.

She's done so many times.

So she should not be on your radar.

[MohRokTah]

10. Oh, and thanks for making this thread about Warren.

At least it's kept it kicked to the top and people will read about how Obama supported marriage equality all along.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

12. Me? I made a single comment, you replied, etc.

Looks like you 'made it about Warren' as much as I did.

Left unreplied to, mine would simply have been one comment among many.

[MohRokTah]

13. Your single comment made the thread about Warren. eom

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

14. If it bothers you that much, we can both self-delete the entire set of comments.

How about it?

[MohRokTah]

15. Nah, I'll just keep responding to you.

It keeps the thread kicked.

[JI7]

17. The problem for warren is she actually was a republican

Into adult life. This would only hurt her in the pRimary. But it would help her in the general election.

Nobody cares about politicians who may have said they wont run but do end up running. Most can understand the decision to do so involves a lot of thought and people can change their mind.

[nichomachus]

61. Was she a Goldwater Girl like Hillary? n/t

[JI7]

66. no. she was about 30 years older

[DirkGently]

37. Jesus. Who's floating that argument about Warren?

Changing your mind isn't "lying."

Whoever's trying that is being incredibly lame and dishonest themselves.

[snooper2]

46. I thought it was going to cause a problem for people who "believed him"

and then when he "changed his mind" took credit...

because of...

Posting online and stuff got his attention

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

49. To choose some incredibly arbitrary number

99.99% of the time, politicians totally ignore anything posted online. That last .01%? Almost always something posted online by one of the 0.1% who are the main constituency. When any politician, even those I 'like', changes a position, I assume money or power was involved.

[MohRokTah]

3. Missed it by a few minutes

I'll delete my thread and add my comment from that thread here.

I suspected this at the time. Politicians must be pragmatic to get elected. By bullshitting on the issue in 2008, Obama insured this country would be where it is today on the issue.

[djean111]

7. So, basically, nothing that he says is to be taken seriously.

Suspected that.

[MohRokTah]

11. .

[msanthrope]

16. Because that should be the takeaway from an article about gay rights?

You know what I takeaway from this??? That thank the non-existent Christ he did lie.....

Think about gay rights with a McCain presidency.

[MohRokTah]

18. Bullshitting about his stance on marriage equality is why we are where we are now on the issue.

But some will do anything to give a dig on our President.

[msanthrope]

19. And he deftly removed a wedge issue for the MCCain/Palin camp to use. nt

[MohRokTah]

20. And he quietly worked behind the scenes to get us where we are today. eom

[msanthrope]

22. Quietly? He stirred dustclouds of swirling shit at the Pentagon...nt.

[MohRokTah]

23. Well, that was after he announced how he had "evolved" on the issue.

[randys1]

57. Well we can agree on that.

Obama did what he had to do to get to where we are today.

On many issues.

Including this one.

He plays poker way better than the racist assholes who oppose him for no other reason than the color of his skin.

[JI7]

21. yes. anyone who saw what he said before running for president

Could see he was not opposed to it.

He probably got lucky in McCain not exploiting the issue because they could easily have brought up what he said before and questioned his stand on it.

Only reason I'm ok with it is because i knew he would and has worked to get gay rights passed and been very public with his support .

[Act_of_Reparation]

27. More like: "Nothing he says should be taken at face value"

He's the president. Everything he says should be taken seriously.

But people need to be realistic about politics. It is a game, and if you want to get anything done, you have to play the game and play it well.

[djean111]

39. This is why I never watch his speeches. Deeds not words. Every time.

And for those who say oh, well, for gay rights, of COURSE he was lying, just to get elected. Do you just pick the lies or non-follow-throughs that you personally like? That was the only thing he lied about in order to get elected?
Is saying he would re-negotiate the bad NAFTA, and then not only not doing that, but tripling down on a much worse TPP - is that admirable, too? Not to me.

[Act_of_Reparation]

59. I would hope our president's motivations are more practical than my admiration.

Because if it is kudos he's looking for, he's barking up the wrong tree. My admiration isn't given out lightly, and it is rarely given out to people who have made careers out of politics.

That said, there's an old saying you should probably consider: "Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good."

Obama isn't the progressive we really want in office; but, as a candidate, he was better than the other guy, and he was electable. Given the situation we were in, Obama was and remains better than our other options. If he had to lie about his position on marriage equality to get elected... no, it's not admirable, but we are still in a better place than we would have been if he came out with a hardline stance and lost because of it.

Personally, I'm of the opinion that the marriage equality war is all but won at this point, and the true victors aren't going to be the guys on Capitol Hill. The real people who are going to win this war are our LGBT brothers and sisters who fought tooth and nail for decades to get it through to straight, cis folks like myself that this is a civil rights issue that needs to be addressed. They're the real heroes here, and the people most deserving of our admiration.

[ann---]

32. Exactly....

I learned that the hard way and regretfully voted for him a second time.

[BlueCaliDem]

35. Sure you did. eom

[wendylaroux]

45. oh you poor thing

you gonna be alright?

[MohRokTah]

55. Cool story, bro. eom

[Bluenorthwest]

24. Yeah, I knew this. I had some exposure to Obama's ways prior to his candidacy so I knew to listen to

him carefully and I knew he was a rare person who can at times put ego aside and play the opposition to serve the advocates. He told LGBT people and everyone else to be the change we wanted and to hold his feet to the fire. That, to me, was very clear. Many people who claim to be 'supporting Obama' by echoing his positions played their parts as well, but had they caught on to the process they might have been able to advocate their own agendas more effectively by holding to them rather than adapting them to fit Obama's spoken positions. Those who helped Obama attain his objectives were the actual supporters of the President's agenda, and that paradigm continues today. Nodding along with Barack is not what he has asked of anyone. Those who do that do it for themselves, not for Obama.

[Sheepshank]

36. Subtelty, negotiation skills, quietly manipulating the political system....

...playing the cards close to his chest, misdirecting the media and Republicans, all of these nuances and more are lost on the crowd that screams the media bull crap. They are so busy being angry at step 1 of the plan and negotiations, they forget to recognize the successes of Obama on the final outcome.... that so often had been 180 Deg from starting point. Gay Marriage is the point at hand. So while you may not like the head bobbers, there is another very vocal crowd shaking their head at everything and anything, completely missing what had just happened.

[stevenleser]

65. Yep, those folks are busy congratulating themselves on trite and pedestrian attempts at humor like

"n-th dimensional chess" and as you said end up "completely missing what had just happened".

and to quote you some more, "they forget to recognize the successes of Obama on the final outcome" of a lot of issues now, despite persistent and withering opposition that I think would have stopped folks like LBJ and FDR in their tracks.

[MineralMan]

25. And halfway through his second term, marriage equality is

just about to become the law of the land. Interesting, isn't it?

[MohRokTah]

28. I think this is an example of how Barack Obama is probably the most skilled politician since FDR.

He is truly skilled at understanding what is possible and how to make what is currently impossible become possible over a period of time.

[MineralMan]

30. That could be. It could also be that the time when this country

was ready to get rid of that injustice had arrived. There's no question about Barack Obama's skills at getting things done. He got rid of DADT at a time I didn't think that could get through Congress. It took some give and take, of course, but it happened. I really have no idea how he felt about marriage equality, but he certainly added his support for it at a critical time.

In Minnesota, it wouldn't have happened, except that Obama's win of a second term swept a Democratic majority into our state legislature, and the new legislature made marriage equality a priority the next year. In 2012, there was a constitutional amendment on our ballot that would have banned same-sex marriage. Democratic turnout to re-elect Obama sent that down to defeat, along with a voter ID amendment.

The fact is that Obama's popularity made many things possible. I give him credit for a number of things, even if that credit is accidental.

The fact that marriage equality has succeeded is largely due to his election for two terms.

[randys1]

64. I lost a dear friend, Greg, recently. AfAm man my age who LOVED that we finally had a Black Prez

and that Obama was many many steps ahead of everybody on everything.

We communicated almost everyday and his happiness that there was a Black President, was contagious.

We together were two of his biggest boosters.

I went somewhere and came back, was without cell/internet service and the first email I read from a mutual friend I learned of his passing.

Fuck

As a goofy white guy I was a huge supporter of Obama from get go, but when Greg and I got together on it I felt different somehow.

Even though I am a big supporter of his and will be of Hillary too if I have to, I would also criticize the Prez on many things, Greg would always defend him and we both laughed about that.

I miss my friend, I miss that he isnt here today to see the Obama that is taking it, overtly, to the assholes.

[marmar]

26. No surprise. I've thought that all along.

[bigtree]

29. so, it was like we said

...for base, petty, calculating politics.

I don't know which of them is worse on this - Axelrod or Barack Obama.

What else is he 'bullshitting' on...badly?

This is the kind of politics which causes people to turn away from the democratic process. The idea that he would have lost by taking a firm stand is ludicrous, given that public opinion didn't just magically change on the issue two years later in his term; nor did it turn on his statement in that interview affirming his support for gay marriage; nor did it turn on Biden's prompting 'gaffe'. Politicians like Barack Obama and others who rushed to affirm their support at the same time were rushing to catch the wave of open support that was overtaking their cautions political posturing. They were playing catch-up.

The question is not what would have happened to the Obama candidacy if he had been honest and consistent in his earlier support of gay marriage; it's how much more could have been gained by an honest and politically courageous approach. Timidity in the face of republican bigotry is what's made our party's political posture so wobbly at times and outright weak at others.

[Bluenorthwest]

41. He did what needed to be done to persuade Democrats who were opposed to equality to favor it.

The bigotry we were working against was in our own Party. Want links to DU's 'Obama supporters' echoing his views 'you people have plenty of rights already' and 'there is only one right you don't have' and 'gay marriage is to me unthinkable, the Bible says it is wrong'. Those folks are still on DU, claiming that they are 'The Obama Supporters' and those of us who actually assisted in this victory, we are 'Obama Critics'.
The morning of Nov 5 2014, day after huge electoral victory in my State, the first OP I read on DU blamed gay people for the losses in other states:
"The openness and brazenness of the LBGT agenda and the media flaunting of gay marriages all across the country cost Dems dearly and threatens to do so in the future."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025764803#post45

That poster remains as well.

[bigtree]

50. well, there is that

...I still believe his statement, from his elevated office, has great political importance; my disgust at his motivations and prevarication, notwithstanding.

[Nye Bevan]

31. Better that he was a liar than a bigot.

Because it was certainly one or the other.

[ann---]

33. No, it isn't

An honest public official shouldn't be EITHER. Wait till the other shoes drop about this guy.

[PragmaticLiberal]

42. " Wait till the other shoes drop about this guy."

Elaborate please.

[MohRokTah]

56. Either the "Mooslim" thing or the "birth certificate" thing.

At least, anybody talking about "another shoe dropping about this guy" when referring to Obama usually means one of those two (or both).

[PragmaticLiberal]

63. I don't think thats what ann meant.

Go back and read what ann was responding to.

It puts her response in a different context..

[wendylaroux]

47. What???!!

What do you know???

[BlueCaliDem]

34. I have never had any doubt that President Obama was pro-equal rights in all ways, even gay marriage.

I know he had to pretend he wasn't because of the stupidity and prejudices of the larger American electorate, and he needed to get elected in order to appease their tiny, uninformed, undereducated, scared-of-changed and brainwashed-by-corporate-u.s.-media minds. Add to that, Republicans were chomping at the bit to find the slightest error in order to escalated their hatred of him the moment he got elected as they tried to snatch Congress back from Democrats, and were pretty much successful what with a cooperative media to polish up those turds and make them smell like roses for Republican political gain.

But I have never had any doubt that President Obama would quietly work behind-the-scenes to ensure that he battled discrimination everywhere he could.

[alarimer]

40. Opposing gay marriage was ALWAYS the wrong thing to do, no matter the reason.

A politician's job, I guess, is not to have opinions of their own, but to blow with whatever prevailing winds blow. Which is why I despise all politicians, no matter how good they are at the politics.

I can never know when they are sincere and when they are bullshitting. I suspect most of them are bullshitting most of the time.

And there's something about anyone who actually wants to be in politics that I can never quite trust.

I know they are lying 90% of the time. Their lips are moving.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

43. Politicians lie!!???!! Next we'll be told that ducks quack.

[KG]

44. yeah, right.

[Vattel]

48. Like that wasn't already obvious.

[cui bono]

52. In other words, he purposely aided in the oppression of gays for personal political gain.

Except I don't believe this story. And if true then why would anyone blindly defend him? That's crazy. That is immoral for him to aid the oppression gays for his own career.

Unfortunately for us and our country, there's plenty of other things he really was bullshitting about.

[TwilightGardener]

53. No, he's actually pretty good at bullshitting.

[NCTraveler]

54. Not buying it.

Obama has spent the overwhelming majority of his adult life opposed to equal rights. How do I know this? He told me.

[nichomachus]

60. I think he's selling himself short

Bullshitting is one of his talents. Well, that and golf.

[tritsofme]

67. Not surprising at all, Obama is the consummate politician.

It was obvious to anyone that his "evolution" was based on the politics of the moment, not principles.

This doesn't make him "bad" it makes him a politician, one of the most successful in a generation.