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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsLet's be clear: The Obama Crusades controversy is over whether it's okay to hate Muslims
At Vox Max Fisher is actively alarmed over the criticism the president is getting for arguing in his National Prayer Breakfast speech that its not okay to pretend Muslims are distinct from any other set of believers (or unbelievers) in their proclivity towards violence. Yet as he points out, many of Obamas defenders have gone for the capillaries, contending over the details of Obamas points about the history of Christianity or the counter-points of his critics. It is, says Fisher, actually pretty simple:
To be crystal clear: this is not a fight over the fine-grain imperfections of Obamas historical analogy or over the implications for US foreign policy. It is a fight over whether its okay to hate Muslims, to apply sweeping and negative stereotypes to the one-fifth of humanity that follows a particular religion. A number of Americans, it seems, are clinging desperately to their anti-Muslim bigotry and are furious at Obama for trying to take that away from them.
MORE: http://www.vox.com/2015/2/7/7995803/obama-crusades
Theres something else going on, as I have been at pains to point out: those attacking Obama also want to define liberals right out of Christianity. But they do so by way of a most ironic litmus test:
to love Jesus, you have to hate some of his children.
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/political-animal-a/2015_02/simple_bigotry054112.php
snooper2
(30,151 posts)But But Christians have fundies too Snooper!
Yeah, but as a percentage they never follow through with their crazy if you do a true comparison. Number of murders over past 100 years 80-1 maybe?
cpwm17
(3,829 posts)With a selective memory and a biased look at current events many people claim they are more violent. But we are the nation that has a very bad record of committing terrible violence against Muslims, far more than the violence they have committed against us. That is consistent with recent history throughout the Western and Muslim World.
Barrack Obama is right.
http://www.vox.com/2015/1/30/7951309/islam-violence
What these conversations usually lack is data; that is, evidence that Muslim societies are actually more violent than other ones. And it turns out, according to UC-Berkeley Professor M. Steven Fish, that judging by murder rates, people in Muslim-majority countries actually tend to be significantly less violent (bolding is mine):
Predominantly, Muslim countries average 2.4 murders per annum per 100,000 people, compared to 7.5 in non-Muslim countries. The percentage of the society that is made up of Muslims is an extraordinarily good predictor of a country's murder rate. More authoritarianism in Muslim countries does not account for the difference. I have found that controlling for political regime in statistical analysis does not change the findings. More Muslims, less homicide.
http://www.alternet.org/belief/despite-wingnut-freakout-obama-right-christian-violence-just-bad-muslim-violence
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30 Worst Atrocities of the 20th Century
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/atrox.htm
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JonLP24
(29,322 posts)the sect responsible for Arabian Peninsula dictatorships & Al-Qaeda brand terror groups is an idealogy so far off from traditional Islamic practices such as opposing the Hajj. Saudi Arabia, I guess, saw that they couldn't not allow it but they certainly regulate. Cap the visitors, how to pray, etc.
And it came from the 18th Century so as far as Islam is concerned, it is fairly new so it isn't something long term (though it certainly appears that way with their whole 1st Century methods.
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)the links you give. in fact, matthew white, the source of the "30 worst atrocities" chart, says the opposite:
That's why I was so startled to discover that there is absolutely no pattern to the chart. If I had simply picked 25 countries out of a hat, I could not have gotten a more diverse spread than we've got here. We've got rich countries and poor countries; industrial and agrarian; big and small. We've got people of all colors -- white, black, yellow and brown -- widely represented among both the slaughterers and the slaughterees. We've got Christians, Moslems, Buddhists and Atheists all butchering one another in the name of their various gods or lack thereof. Among the perpetrators, we've got political leanings of the left, right and middle; some are monarchies; some are dictatorships and some are even democracies.
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/atrox.htm
What's the source for the mash-up you present?
cpwm17
(3,829 posts)My post was about the fact that Muslims are not more violent than the rest of us. I wasn't really picking on Christians in particular. I included three different links which confused another poster.
Even in the third link which you linked to, considering that they are a major proportion of the World population, Muslims commit fewer major atrocities than other groups.
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)that pie chart has no supporting data presented. But posting them in cross proximity, you give the false impression that the data in the second chart supports the pie chart.
Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)What about those lunatics who were yelling abuse at American Muslim kids who were singing the national anthem? What about that Teabag politician who demanded Muslims who visited her office had to swear an oath of allegiance to the US alongside an Israeli flag? What about those anti-Muslim ads that are on public buses on one of America's major cities courtesy of Pamela Geller? Or do you think they're just hating on fundies or something?
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)those insisting on defending the Crusades comment are demanding it be OK to hate Christians?
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)...and these folks have not formed their opinions on cut off headlines or sentences or other people's opinions.
He uses 40 million killed in China's revolution and 20 million under Stalin's regime as killed under Christian leaders.
outside
(70 posts)Matthew White. Look at his chart on post #3.
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/atrox.htm
'Christians v. muslims' seems to be the poster's addition. but the poster of the chart isn't the op kpete, who you addressed your original comments to, but cpwm17
MisterP
(23,730 posts)so the fruitloops are saying Dubya's too soft
CJCRANE
(18,184 posts)and anyone else we don't like.
Then Bushco's antics increased these groups fivefold in the last few years.
Anyone remember when socialism and commnunism were the big bads in the world?
It's like living in a land of amnesiacs.
cpwm17
(3,829 posts)He needed a new enemy to replace the commies. He was very successful.
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)we're basically at war with a lot of muslim sects. a war that ordinary people, bigoted or not, had nothing to do with starting. that's on our leaders. so if ordinary americans are bigoted against people they don't even know, it has something to do with our war.