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Karmadillo

(9,253 posts)
Wed Feb 11, 2015, 07:17 PM Feb 2015

Robert Parry: NYT Whites Out Ukraine’s Brown Shirts

https://consortiumnews.com/2015/02/11/nyt-whites-out-ukraines-brown-shirts/

Exclusive: The New York Times has been more biased on the Ukraine crisis – endlessly promoting State Department propaganda – than when it published false Iraqi WMD stories last decade. Case in point: a story from Mariupol hailing the Azov battalion without noting its neo-Nazi fighters, writes Robert Parry.

By Robert Parry

In covering the Ukraine crisis, the New York Times continues its descent into becoming little more than a propaganda organ for the U.S. State Department and the Kiev regime, again refusing to acknowledge the role of neo-Nazi militias in the civil war against ethnic Russians in the east.

On Wednesday, the Times published a long article by Rick Lyman that presented the situation in the port city of Mariupol as if the advance by ethnic Russian rebels amounted to the arrival of barbarians at the gate while the inhabitants were being bravely defended by the forces of civilization. But then the article cites the key role in that defense played by the Azov battalion.

?f0ee9e

Though the article provides much color and detail – and quotes an Azov leader prominently – it leaves out one salient and well-known fact about the Azov battalion, that it is composed of neo-Nazis who display the Swastika, SS markings and other Nazi symbols.

But this inconvenient truth – that neo-Nazis have been central to Kiev’s “self-defense forces” from last February’s coup to the present – would presumably disrupt the desired propaganda message. So the New York Times just ignores it and refers to Azov as simply a “volunteer unit.”

<edit>

So, why did the New York Times excise this well-documented history as it touted the Azov battalion to its readers on Wednesday? Isn’t the role of neo-Nazis newsworthy? In other contexts, the Times is quick to note and condemn any sign of a Nazi resurgence in Europe. However, in Ukraine, where neo-Nazis, such as Andriy Parubiy served as the coup regime’s first national security chief and neo-Nazi militias are at the center of regime’s military operations, the Times goes silent on the subject.

It can’t be because the Times is unaware of what has been extensively reported about the Azov battalion. The Times could even find a brief reference in one of its own prior stories. The only logical answer is that the Times is committed to a propaganda position on the Ukraine crisis and doesn’t want the facts to get in the way of its preferred storyline.
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Robert Parry: NYT Whites Out Ukraine’s Brown Shirts (Original Post) Karmadillo Feb 2015 OP
More likely, Parry is biased and thus everyone else appears biased who disagrees with him. nt stevenleser Feb 2015 #1
Does he have rabies? He's practically foaming at the mouth. randome Feb 2015 #2
Yep. nt stevenleser Feb 2015 #7
Foaming? RobertEarl Feb 2015 #40
your back where have you been! snooper2 Feb 2015 #174
I once held an Alka-Seltzer tablet in my mouth to try and get out of class. Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2015 #111
It's ironic Aerows Feb 2015 #113
Have you noticed the lack of content in the comments of the personal attackers? sabrina 1 Feb 2015 #121
It's ridiculous Aerows Feb 2015 #139
I think it is more a case of lack of hearts snooper2 Feb 2015 #175
Really, so reporting on facts from one of the best journalists, who has been proven to be correct sabrina 1 Feb 2015 #114
More likely, you don't know what a journalist does, stevenleser. Octafish Feb 2015 #5
You're still engaging in the immature practice of using the persons DU name in the subject I see stevenleser Feb 2015 #6
Thanks for the reply. I won't count on stevenleser to fight fascism. Octafish Feb 2015 #11
You can mount a horse, brandish a lance and charge at windmills, but your not fighting dragons stevenleser Feb 2015 #12
Like I care what you think about me. You say you're a pundit... Octafish Feb 2015 #13
What I think about you is not at issue. The fact is that posting on DU is not 'fighting fascism' stevenleser Feb 2015 #36
You owe Octafish an apology, Steven Lesser of DU zappaman Feb 2015 #38
Octafish does fight fascism RobertEarl Feb 2015 #41
LOL. With pronouncements like that, I wonder at what point phrases like "Delusions of grandeur" stevenleser Feb 2015 #42
"Delusions of grandeur" ... polly7 Feb 2015 #77
What are you fighting, or not fighting? It would be instructive for us on DU when one DUer sabrina 1 Feb 2015 #112
Well said Aerows Feb 2015 #116
Well we all know your thoughts on another DUer. What did Parry get wrong regarding the NYT? sabrina 1 Feb 2015 #123
I'll ask you the same question I asked Steven Lesser. When you choose to personally attack another sabrina 1 Feb 2015 #119
I've seen little Aerows Feb 2015 #126
Did you protest the invasion of Iraq? polly7 Feb 2015 #78
Hey be nice, you know he has been to a conference or two snooper2 Feb 2015 #176
I beg to differ on the "Posting on DU is not 'fighting fascism'" comment btrflykng9 Feb 2015 #184
This message was self-deleted by its author bahrbearian Feb 2015 #18
That's the future of journalism, all right. Octafish Feb 2015 #27
Your opinion of journalism is meaningless since you don't know the first thing about it. nt stevenleser Feb 2015 #39
You ARE only speaking for yourself I hope. Octafish is one of DU's most treasured members, always sabrina 1 Feb 2015 #60
o.m.g. 2banon Feb 2015 #64
I know what you mean! OMG is right ... I wonder how many DUers would be here sabrina 1 Feb 2015 #157
I have to admit, I think I have a crush on Octafish..:) 2banon Feb 2015 #158
I think a lot of people would agree with you, 2banon! sabrina 1 Feb 2015 #160
Indeed. BTW, I'm really feeling quite jealous of all your hearts! :D 2banon Feb 2015 #161
I got them from Putin!! Lol! sabrina 1 Feb 2015 #163
"I got them from Putin!! " Ramses Feb 2015 #166
Yes! Bizarro Land! It's like taking a ride in the way back machine, and unbelievably Red Baiting is 2banon Feb 2015 #167
Ok, that was funny!!! polly7 Feb 2015 #170
'From Russia With Love'! Lol! sabrina 1 Feb 2015 #180
You got flowers from Hussein?!? polly7 Feb 2015 #185
Ahhh, Was That You??? 2banon Feb 2015 #164
You have other admirers also. sabrina 1 Feb 2015 #165
Thanks! 2banon Feb 2015 #168
Wow ............. wtf? polly7 Feb 2015 #70
Way beyond decent conversation Aerows Feb 2015 #98
Me either. Octafish brings so much good information to this board, polly7 Feb 2015 #99
That's the conclusion I came to. Aerows Feb 2015 #101
You're right, Aerows. polly7 Feb 2015 #103
Glad you are back, Polly Aerows Feb 2015 #104
Thanks, Aerows. I just decided I'm not going to let anyone try to define polly7 Feb 2015 #106
Nor should you Aerows Feb 2015 #108
You rock, Aerows! polly7 Feb 2015 #109
I can! sabrina 1 Feb 2015 #177
You're kidding right? He's been following me all over DU being nasty stevenleser Feb 2015 #178
If by "being nasty" Aerows Feb 2015 #179
Your conduct in this thread Aerows Feb 2015 #88
your alert failed L0oniX Feb 2015 #93
Surely someone has stolen your login and is posting under your name. Karmadillo Feb 2015 #94
This is what being on Fox can do to someone. L0oniX Feb 2015 #95
No kidding, L0oniX. n/t Aerows Feb 2015 #105
I'm baffled by his behavior Aerows Feb 2015 #107
absolutely clueless. 2banon Feb 2015 #68
I can't fathom it, 2banon. Aerows Feb 2015 #110
and to learn that he actually alerted on O.F.! LOL! 2banon Feb 2015 #162
or what they used to do, anyway. reddread Feb 2015 #81
Please enlighten us about the Azov Battalion. Comrade Grumpy Feb 2015 #8
Please enlighten us about right wing elements in militaries and militias in Russia and elsewhere nt stevenleser Feb 2015 #9
Somewhat irrelevant since it's not the Russian right wing elements we're $upporting. Karmadillo Feb 2015 #20
It's completely relevant. Some folks here, like you, only care that right wing elements tend to stevenleser Feb 2015 #37
Blackwater may be in Ukraine JonLP24 Feb 2015 #44
And they are an excellent example of what I am talking about. Go to the US, to Russia, to Iran, etc. stevenleser Feb 2015 #46
If you say so JonLP24 Feb 2015 #48
That's just dumb MFrohike Feb 2015 #55
Nope, it's exactly right and more flagrant in this situation because Russia, who they are advocating stevenleser Feb 2015 #57
Is that a fact? MFrohike Feb 2015 #58
Yep, further explained in my #56 below. nt stevenleser Feb 2015 #59
Dumbest shit I ever read MFrohike Feb 2015 #61
indeed. well said. 2banon Feb 2015 #66
+100 ND-Dem Feb 2015 #69
+1000. nt. polly7 Feb 2015 #72
^^^this^^^ L0oniX Feb 2015 #96
Yep, summed it up nicely. n/t Aerows Feb 2015 #147
Well said, MFrohike. And just a reminder, we do have 'allies' who have committed genocide sabrina 1 Feb 2015 #182
Blackwater is paid for their war crimes with our tax dollars. THAT is what makes something sabrina 1 Feb 2015 #173
'why the focus on Ukr.' Good question, why were US Senators and State Dept neocons so focused on Ukr sabrina 1 Feb 2015 #124
So much hot air. You must be able to float to work. Karmadillo Feb 2015 #49
You could prove me wrong. Link to your complaints about right wing militias in Greece or Iran stevenleser Feb 2015 #50
Link to your complaints about child slavery in the chocolate industry. But you Karmadillo Feb 2015 #51
That comparison would be relevant if I was complaining about that. You are complaining about stevenleser Feb 2015 #52
Conveniently ignore fascism elsewhere? Wrong, as usual. Karmadillo Feb 2015 #54
Nope, I'm right as usual, you just further proved my point upthread. stevenleser Feb 2015 #56
Poor you. I'll see your Orwell and raise you Jung. Karmadillo Feb 2015 #80
I'm pretty certain Aerows Feb 2015 #86
Why are you defending the murdering fascists in Ukraine? nt. polly7 Feb 2015 #76
Have you ever posted a thread on those issues? THIS thread is about sabrina 1 Feb 2015 #181
It's obvious you're not one of those in eastern Unkraine losing family members polly7 Feb 2015 #71
With you right there Aerows Feb 2015 #140
Neo Nazi right wing elements are part of the Kiev Government. The US should NOT be sabrina 1 Feb 2015 #62
You've got to be kidding. polly7 Feb 2015 #79
Oh, dodging the question Aerows Feb 2015 #133
Parry is correct, as he was when the NYT was working for the neocons to start the Iraq War. sabrina 1 Feb 2015 #10
nt? G_j Feb 2015 #129
The New York Times has ignored NAZI presence in CIA, Pentagon, etc. Octafish Feb 2015 #3
KnR for Truth in analysis. 2banon Feb 2015 #4
Who exactly is governing Ukraine? JonLP24 Feb 2015 #14
I see no evidence that the NYT deliberately omitted anything. MineralMan Feb 2015 #15
Do the reports Parry cites from the Telegraph and NBC news also originate in Moscow? Karmadillo Feb 2015 #21
Its been backed up and verified elsewhere several times over JonLP24 Feb 2015 #22
I do, but then I've been following the story. sabrina 1 Feb 2015 #43
You realize, of course, that your post RE: origin of Parry's information Maedhros Feb 2015 #127
That is a slam dunk Aerows Feb 2015 #146
MM, I respect you Aerows Feb 2015 #137
Which is why the Brian Williams lie is such a joke malaise Feb 2015 #16
Parry. LOL...nt SidDithers Feb 2015 #17
Muffins. Yummy...nt. I want more. Fred Sanders Feb 2015 #23
Thanks for your contribution as always...nt elias49 Feb 2015 #31
It's not Parry that matters. It's his reporting. And that is factual. Octafish Feb 2015 #19
As is almost always the case, his case is unimpeachable in terms of the facts, but BHO apologists stupidicus Feb 2015 #24
I don't think they are BHO apologists. grasswire Feb 2015 #65
OMG. Thought I was the only one. They gave me a very unsettled feeling. ND-Dem Feb 2015 #73
I did believe they were were Obama cult for a long time. grasswire Feb 2015 #97
It's pretty obvious Aerows Feb 2015 #142
the question must be, then, to what end? grasswire Feb 2015 #145
Knee jerk reaction, maybe Aerows Feb 2015 #148
As do I. nt. polly7 Feb 2015 #75
+1 reddread Feb 2015 #82
As usual, grasswire Aerows Feb 2015 #85
yea G_j Feb 2015 #132
Incredibly consistent, too Aerows Feb 2015 #138
They could'nt care less about Obama Ramses Feb 2015 #153
let's see.. grasswire Feb 2015 #154
there may be some merit to that stupidicus Feb 2015 #172
I guess I shouldnt believe my lying eyes Ramses Feb 2015 #25
Some American soldiers display the Confederate Flag on their uniforms, equipment, etc.... George II Feb 2015 #26
Maybe it means they wish they were... elias49 Feb 2015 #29
No but one side is clearly mostly far right nationalistic (East) JonLP24 Feb 2015 #30
I only saw one. And it was in a barracks room, not a uniform. Fuddnik Feb 2015 #34
If we're making a fair comparison, what are the militia folks like in the US? Are they progressives? stevenleser Feb 2015 #45
Precisely - this is a frightening list below: George II Feb 2015 #47
Thank you. Robert Parry most certainly matters! n/t Judi Lynn Feb 2015 #28
No surprise the NYT is pushing the latest neocon propaganda Oilwellian Feb 2015 #32
and we're going to. BHO is asking for a vote on war powers. ND-Dem Feb 2015 #74
kick. Thanks for posting and a great thread. Some are finally starting to pay Purveyor Feb 2015 #33
K&R Pooka Fey Feb 2015 #35
After his disastrous "reporting" on MH-17 NuclearDem Feb 2015 #53
swing and a miss nt grasswire Feb 2015 #67
no joy in swastikaville. reddread Feb 2015 #83
Aw, that's cute! NuclearDem Feb 2015 #87
no, odd leap there reddread Feb 2015 #89
Yep, people who despise fascist Kremlin stooges NuclearDem Feb 2015 #90
can you find the neo-NAZI element? reddread Feb 2015 #91
This might shock you, but I'm not in favor of Western or Russian intervention NuclearDem Feb 2015 #92
Here's an idea: rebut the OP. Maedhros Feb 2015 #128
Other posters have done more than enough to show how Parry is useless when it comes to Ukraine. NuclearDem Feb 2015 #131
And another post filled with soft, spongy pablum. Maedhros Feb 2015 #134
I love the smell of napalm Aerows Feb 2015 #143
It doesn't really matter, though, in the long run. Maedhros Feb 2015 #151
I don't know Aerows Feb 2015 #152
yep grasswire Feb 2015 #155
I've noticed that as well. Maedhros Feb 2015 #156
Maybe it's just tradition over there jakeXT Feb 2015 #63
Well well well, what have we here? Oilwellian Feb 2015 #84
So...Parry again uses pure Moscow propaganda Blue_Tires Feb 2015 #100
I disagree. n/t Aerows Feb 2015 #102
Yeah ....... me too. polly7 Feb 2015 #118
When propoganda meets propoganda... NCTraveler Feb 2015 #115
It strikes me as Aerows Feb 2015 #117
I really think Hong Kong is also worth a mention or five. nt. NCTraveler Feb 2015 #120
Meanwhile here's an inconvenient truth certain DUers keep ignoring: Blue_Tires Feb 2015 #122
The NYT was a propaganda arm for the neocons in their quest for War in Iraq. Parry gets it right sabrina 1 Feb 2015 #125
That's because indignation is all they've got. Maedhros Feb 2015 #130
I think we are Aerows Feb 2015 #135
I urge liberal use of the Ignore function for posters who lack the basic capacity Maedhros Feb 2015 #136
Yes, they would never have survived on DU in the past. The reason they don't like Parry is sabrina 1 Feb 2015 #183
Yes, .......... again. polly7 Feb 2015 #186
David Talbot of Salon talked about a famous reporter at New York Times who was an 'Ex-NAZI.' Octafish Feb 2015 #141
thank you nt grasswire Feb 2015 #144
Octafish, you are a gem Aerows Feb 2015 #149
I keep wondering why the NYT ever got its reputation as a credible news organization. sabrina 1 Feb 2015 #159
Great thread Aerows Feb 2015 #150
Yessireee .......... kick for Robert Parry! nt. polly7 Feb 2015 #171
Ukraine's brown shirts don't mean much Yorktown Feb 2015 #169
 

randome

(34,845 posts)
2. Does he have rabies? He's practically foaming at the mouth.
Wed Feb 11, 2015, 07:35 PM
Feb 2015

[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.
[/center][/font][hr]
 

RobertEarl

(13,685 posts)
40. Foaming?
Thu Feb 12, 2015, 12:12 AM
Feb 2015

Actually it is a reaction to the NYT trying to sell the world on accepting Nazis.

Should make any peace loving person have a reaction. Funny, tho, some here don't seem to mind a bit Nazis are at war again.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
113. It's ironic
Thu Feb 12, 2015, 04:02 PM
Feb 2015

that you are having to make a post in response to a poster that is the poster child of needing to look in the mirror.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
121. Have you noticed the lack of content in the comments of the personal attackers?
Thu Feb 12, 2015, 04:25 PM
Feb 2015

That is what we have to watch out for. It is a tactic that will be used in the upcoming elections against the Left, but from the Right, that is their MO of course, and sadly, from some now on the left.

I assume when I see such personal attacks that they are unable to refute the content they appear to want to distract from.

The left needs to be aware of these tactics, too often we ignore them or react as they intend for us to react, take the bait, go on the defensive. The Left needs to be on the offensive from now on.

We need to study these tactics and learn how to USE them to OUR advantage. Just imo of course!

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
139. It's ridiculous
Thu Feb 12, 2015, 08:20 PM
Feb 2015

I'm aware of the personal attacks, too, and I don't want to engage in them. I guess I just assume that they don't know any better and/or reject the knowledge of doing so.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
114. Really, so reporting on facts from one of the best journalists, who has been proven to be correct
Thu Feb 12, 2015, 04:05 PM
Feb 2015

throughout his career on important facts, is now 'rabid' and 'foaming at the mouth'.

Actually I should not say say 'now'. The truth has always been described that way by those who don't want to acknowledge it.

I notice, as always in posts that attack the messenger, that you provided not a thing to disprove anything he is reporting on. And of course, he isn't the only one reporting the FACT that the NYT once again, is aiding and abetting the neocons.





Octafish

(55,745 posts)
5. More likely, you don't know what a journalist does, stevenleser.
Wed Feb 11, 2015, 07:51 PM
Feb 2015

"Only the mob and the elite can be attracted by the momentum of totalitarianism itself. The masses have to be won by propaganda." — Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951

BTW: You never did answer why you prefer to mock me over wanting to fight fascism.

 

stevenleser

(32,886 posts)
6. You're still engaging in the immature practice of using the persons DU name in the subject I see
Wed Feb 11, 2015, 07:54 PM
Feb 2015

I mock you over fighting fascism because you don't.

Posting on DU is not "fighting fascism".

You don't know what fighting fascism is and you dont know what journalism is so your attempts to attack me over that are meaningless.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
11. Thanks for the reply. I won't count on stevenleser to fight fascism.
Wed Feb 11, 2015, 08:16 PM
Feb 2015

For the record: You attacked a journalist, Robert Parry, on this and many other threads on DU.

That makes you a partisan. If you can't see that, that's your problem.

Why does it bother you so much to mention a "persons DU name in subject" so much?

 

stevenleser

(32,886 posts)
12. You can mount a horse, brandish a lance and charge at windmills, but your not fighting dragons
Wed Feb 11, 2015, 08:19 PM
Feb 2015

doing that either. Nor are you fighting fascism.

As for your nonsense about Parry, your opinion doesnt mean anything there.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
13. Like I care what you think about me. You say you're a pundit...
Wed Feb 11, 2015, 08:34 PM
Feb 2015

...yet you crap on another pundit to make a political point.

That can kill a career, as you can't find anything actually in error in Parry's reporting or wrong in his analysis.

That's about as kind an interpretation as I can make about what you post.

 

stevenleser

(32,886 posts)
36. What I think about you is not at issue. The fact is that posting on DU is not 'fighting fascism'
Thu Feb 12, 2015, 12:03 AM
Feb 2015

Don't pretend that you are some superhero-like fascism fighter or claim you are extending some invitation to join you in doing so.

 

RobertEarl

(13,685 posts)
41. Octafish does fight fascism
Thu Feb 12, 2015, 12:15 AM
Feb 2015

Anyone saying otherwise just makes it seem as tho they support fascism.

They probably should stop doing that?

 

stevenleser

(32,886 posts)
42. LOL. With pronouncements like that, I wonder at what point phrases like "Delusions of grandeur"
Thu Feb 12, 2015, 12:17 AM
Feb 2015

start being used to refer to that poster. He's "fighting fascism" and "taking on the BFEE".

The "BFEE" has no idea who he is and isn't affected by him in the least. I doubt he will ever in his life do anything that ever causes them to notice him.

polly7

(20,582 posts)
77. "Delusions of grandeur" ...
Thu Feb 12, 2015, 04:36 AM
Feb 2015

look in a mirror.

He brings to this board truths so obvious to many of us but that you seem to find uncomfortable. Strange, that.

And, you have no idea what he does off this board, so what you 'doubt' is irrelevant.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
112. What are you fighting, or not fighting? It would be instructive for us on DU when one DUer
Thu Feb 12, 2015, 03:54 PM
Feb 2015

personally attacks another DUer to take a look at the attacker so we can determine whether there is any substance to the claims. We, eg, know the substance Octafish has provided on DU for many years. Many have learned quite a lot from him.

I'm not familiar with your work to any great extent to be honest. If you think being on DU and providing information and opinions and facts is not productive, what IS productive then? You are here also, so what are you providing that is of value?

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
123. Well we all know your thoughts on another DUer. What did Parry get wrong regarding the NYT?
Thu Feb 12, 2015, 06:30 PM
Feb 2015

I don't believe you addressed the subject of the OP..

Fyi, Octafish is NOT the subject of the OP.

Parry is absolutely correct, AGAIN.

Just as he was the last time the NYT became the mouthpiece of the Neocons.

He is correct, they have conveniently left out pertinent information.

Thankfully people no longer look to the NYT for facts when it comes to our various wars.

And they have no one but themselves to blame for that.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
119. I'll ask you the same question I asked Steven Lesser. When you choose to personally attack another
Thu Feb 12, 2015, 04:19 PM
Feb 2015

DUer, using that most disgusting of tactics, certainly not common among people on the Left, mockery, you open YOURSELF up to people wondering 'what does this person, who is attacking a popular, longtime provider of interesting content' do to make DU a worthwhile place to visit?

So what are YOU here for, what content do you provide that might draw readers to this Dem forum as Octafish has been doing for a long time?

And another thing I notice about personal attacks such as these, they never address the content of the material.

Is there something you disagree with in what Octafish has posted?

All I see is childish personal attacks, but I might have missed it, I don't seek out boring comments, sometimes I stumble on them as I have in this thread.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
126. I've seen little
Thu Feb 12, 2015, 06:57 PM
Feb 2015

other than snide commentary from that person, and they have the nerve to taunt Octafish and every DUer that they disagree with.

It's fine to disagree with people, but going out of your way to mock them is a different story.

polly7

(20,582 posts)
78. Did you protest the invasion of Iraq?
Thu Feb 12, 2015, 05:15 AM
Feb 2015

Were you fighting anything then? Or did you sit on your azz and berate anyone else who did so?

btrflykng9

(287 posts)
184. I beg to differ on the "Posting on DU is not 'fighting fascism'" comment
Fri Feb 13, 2015, 09:24 PM
Feb 2015

political movements and philosophies are often formed by the authoritarian control of ideas and information, resisting that control is every bit a fight against fascism.

Response to Octafish (Reply #5)

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
27. That's the future of journalism, all right.
Wed Feb 11, 2015, 09:46 PM
Feb 2015

Thanks for the heads-up, bahrbearian. Remember that guy who said Manchester UK was only for Muslims? The guy's practically a PNAC scribe. Coincidentally cough he's the same guy who claimed Robert Parry was wrong on the October Surprise story back in the mid-90s.

http://rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/Emerson_Steven

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
60. You ARE only speaking for yourself I hope. Octafish is one of DU's most treasured members, always
Thu Feb 12, 2015, 01:35 AM
Feb 2015

was, always will be. What people here respect him for is his professionalism, the work he does to provide links, to discuss, rather than attack, to educate rather than distract.

He is not only a 'journalist', he is a great one. And as such, it is true, he has his distractors, as do all those who question the lies we are constantly told.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
157. I know what you mean! OMG is right ... I wonder how many DUers would be here
Fri Feb 13, 2015, 01:18 AM
Feb 2015

if it wasn't for people like Octafish. I came here BECAUSE of posters like him.

THEY are the ones who made this site what it is.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
160. I think a lot of people would agree with you, 2banon!
Fri Feb 13, 2015, 01:34 AM
Feb 2015

Lol, intelligence, integrity and honesty are definitely qualities that are extremely attractive.

Nastiness and constant negativity, not so much!



 

2banon

(7,321 posts)
161. Indeed. BTW, I'm really feeling quite jealous of all your hearts! :D
Fri Feb 13, 2015, 01:45 AM
Feb 2015

Nahh.. just kidding. it shows you've got it going on...

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
163. I got them from Putin!! Lol!
Fri Feb 13, 2015, 01:54 AM
Feb 2015

Just kidding, but I've been here a while. I remember the first time someone gave me a heart, I was so incredibly touched and wondered who it was. Just one, and it made me feel so wonderful.

So here are some for you. I think you really deserve them!

 

Ramses

(721 posts)
166. "I got them from Putin!! "
Fri Feb 13, 2015, 02:08 AM
Feb 2015

LMAO


Because I dont buy US propaganda, I guess that also makes me a "putin lover" here too. I cant believe the Reagan 80's Cold War propaganda being posted here on a daily basis. We should all hate Russia and commies and leftists. Its like Im in a wayback time machine reading this garbage over and over again.

 

2banon

(7,321 posts)
167. Yes! Bizarro Land! It's like taking a ride in the way back machine, and unbelievably Red Baiting is
Fri Feb 13, 2015, 02:17 AM
Feb 2015

daily fare here. freeking bizarre as it is sickening. one would have thought our culture would have evolved by now, instead a recycling of the same tiring old shite is trafficked here as if had a shred of credibility.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
180. 'From Russia With Love'! Lol!
Fri Feb 13, 2015, 04:43 PM
Feb 2015

I have no doubt your hearts came from Putin also, Polly!

Did I ever tell you that I once received some flower bouquets from Saddam? He wasn't a big spender like Pootie Poot though!

polly7

(20,582 posts)
185. You got flowers from Hussein?!?
Sat Feb 14, 2015, 07:56 AM
Feb 2015


And poor me, who was supposed to have his babies!, got zilch ....... squat .......... nada.
 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
98. Way beyond decent conversation
Thu Feb 12, 2015, 03:05 PM
Feb 2015

I can't imagine why someone would want to be so insulting toward Octafish.

polly7

(20,582 posts)
99. Me either. Octafish brings so much good information to this board,
Thu Feb 12, 2015, 03:06 PM
Feb 2015

maybe that's the problem for some. They very badly don't want to see it here.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
101. That's the conclusion I came to.
Thu Feb 12, 2015, 03:21 PM
Feb 2015

Octafish tells the painful truth, and it makes a few around here mad.

When telling the truth upsets you, you probably need to look in the mirror for a liar.

Nobody likes liars, no matter how silver tongued they might be, and no matter how over-inflated their ego is, either.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
104. Glad you are back, Polly
Thu Feb 12, 2015, 03:34 PM
Feb 2015


Some of the best posters on DU are getting regularly shut down, and I'm not fond of it. Scootaloo got shut out for a month. You got shut out for a couple of weeks. People with strong opinions getting shut down makes DU suck.

polly7

(20,582 posts)
106. Thanks, Aerows. I just decided I'm not going to let anyone try to define
Thu Feb 12, 2015, 03:37 PM
Feb 2015

me with their ugly labels or keep me quiet. I have things to say, and I'll say them.

 

stevenleser

(32,886 posts)
178. You're kidding right? He's been following me all over DU being nasty
Fri Feb 13, 2015, 02:19 PM
Feb 2015

You really ought to know the whole story before jumping into the middle of aomehong

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
179. If by "being nasty"
Fri Feb 13, 2015, 03:19 PM
Feb 2015

you mean calling bullshit when warranted, then yeah. He certainly hasn't been the only one calling bullshit, either. Several good DUers have done so, so you might want to rethink what it is you are trying to accomplish with your tirades.

I have absolutely no doubt that you are going to alert on this post, because if you can't distract, deny and deceive, you'll find another way to shut down the conversation. My real question is why do you WANT to do that, Steven? What do you get out of sacrificing your credibility to defend the indefensible? Because that is pretty much what you have done.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
88. Your conduct in this thread
Thu Feb 12, 2015, 10:44 AM
Feb 2015

is an embarrassment.

I'm not sure who you think you are, but you owe Octafish an apology.

 

L0oniX

(31,493 posts)
93. your alert failed
Thu Feb 12, 2015, 11:04 AM
Feb 2015

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Oh please. To pubically shame a poster for disagreeing and engaging in discussion is especially rude and insulting. This post is disruptive and intended to shut down discussion. Yeah, this is just flat out rude.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Thu Feb 12, 2015, 09:02 AM, and the Jury voted 0-7 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I see no reason to hide this.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: You mean just like steven did to Octafish?

Stop alert stalking.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I only wish I could vote to hide steven's bullshit.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: This juror thinks it's a fair and civil response.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: you owe Octafish an apology
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I don't see where it is rude. Bit of a scold, perhaps, but there is no rule against that. LEAVE
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

Karmadillo

(9,253 posts)
94. Surely someone has stolen your login and is posting under your name.
Thu Feb 12, 2015, 11:36 AM
Feb 2015

Even the real stevenlesser knows that claiming Octafish knows nothing about journalism is nonsense.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
107. I'm baffled by his behavior
Thu Feb 12, 2015, 03:38 PM
Feb 2015

Maybe someone did steal his login, because I can't imagine a rational stevenleser saying all of these things.

I hope you are right, because the stevenleser I have read posts from isn't like this.

 

2banon

(7,321 posts)
68. absolutely clueless.
Thu Feb 12, 2015, 02:58 AM
Feb 2015

it's almost embarrassing. What is it with FOX pundits? They actually believe the lies they spew on teevee. and here i thought it was all about the $$$$$.

 

stevenleser

(32,886 posts)
37. It's completely relevant. Some folks here, like you, only care that right wing elements tend to
Thu Feb 12, 2015, 12:07 AM
Feb 2015

infiltrate militaries and militias if it's Ukraine. This is a common issue globally. Ever take a look at the militia groups here in the US?

Do those folks seem like progressives to you?

You don't actually care about extreme right wing infiltration of militias and military units.

JonLP24

(29,322 posts)
44. Blackwater may be in Ukraine
Thu Feb 12, 2015, 12:38 AM
Feb 2015

US Contractor Greystone Denies Its 'Mercenaries' in Ukraine

<snip>
According to its website, parts of which do not appear to have been updated in years, Greystone began “providing services” in 2004 “as an affiliate of what is now Xe Services.” Xe was the name the controversial defense contractor Blackwater took on before it was sold to private investors, who changed its name yet again to Academi.

<snip>

Greystone founder Christopher Burgess, a former Navy SEAL who trained with Blackwater founder Erik Prince, told Mother Jones in a 2008 email interview that Greystone was formed as Blackwater’s sister company, taking on international contracts where Blackwater would focus on U.S. government contracts. Greystone gets some of its "employees and independent contractors" by recruiting from foreign nations around the world as well, Burgess said then.

“Like Blackwater, Greystone has the tools to provide turn-key security solutions,” Burgess said in 2008. “As an international provider, we try very hard to be sensitive to each unique environment and to create a solution that is appropriate. A critical factor is understanding the desires of foreign customers and working with them, and the tools we have, to create the best solution for them.”

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/greystone-firm-accused-disguising-mercenaries-ukrainians/story?id=23243761

Academi is an American private military company, founded in 1997 by Erik Prince.[2][3] Formerly known as Blackwater,[4] the company was renamed Xe Services in 2009, and "Academi" in 2011.[5] The company was purchased in late 2010 by a group of private investors who changed the name to Academi and instituted a board of directors and new senior management. Prince retained the rights to the name Blackwater and has no affiliation with Academi. The company received widespread publicity in 2007, when a group of its employees killed 17 Iraqi civilians and injured 20 in Nisour Square, Baghdad.[6][7]

Academi continues to provide security services to the United States federal government on a contractual basis. The Obama administration contracted the group to provide services for the CIA for $250 million.[8] In 2013, Academi subsidiary International Development Solutions received an approximately $92 million contract for State Department security guards.[9]

In 2014, the company became a division of Constellis Holdings along with Triple Canopy and other security companies that were part of the Constellis Group as the result of an acquisition.[10][11]

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/greystone-firm-accused-disguising-mercenaries-ukrainians/story?id=23243761

It is difficult to find much verification on this since Academi denies they are there or that they even have ties to Blackwater which is false.

Academi is an American private military company, founded in 1997 by Erik Prince.[2][3] Formerly known as Blackwater,[4] the company was renamed Xe Services in 2009, and "Academi" in 2011.[5] The company was purchased in late 2010 by a group of private investors who changed the name to Academi and instituted a board of directors and new senior management. Prince retained the rights to the name Blackwater and has no affiliation with Academi. The company received widespread publicity in 2007, when a group of its employees killed 17 Iraqi civilians and injured 20 in Nisour Square, Baghdad.[6][7]

Academi continues to provide security services to the United States federal government on a contractual basis. The Obama administration contracted the group to provide services for the CIA for $250 million.[8] In 2013, Academi subsidiary International Development Solutions received an approximately $92 million contract for State Department security guards.[9]

In 2014, the company became a division of Constellis Holdings along with Triple Canopy and other security companies that were part of the Constellis Group as the result of an acquisition.[10][11]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academi

John Ashcroft is one of their board of directors. In any case Ukraine does have far right militias on their side such as the Right Sector, Donbass Batallion & zov Battalion -- clearly the far right has ties to the Ukrainian government.





 

stevenleser

(32,886 posts)
46. And they are an excellent example of what I am talking about. Go to the US, to Russia, to Iran, etc.
Thu Feb 12, 2015, 12:41 AM
Feb 2015

Paramilitary groups, contractors, militias tend to be extreme right wing.

So the question is, why the focus on Ukraines? I don't see you complaining on a daily basis about the militia groups in the US. I don't see you complaining about neo-Nazi's in Russia.

At some point, you are going to need to be honest and explain what your motivation really is here. IMHO there are only two for arguing against Ukraine.

1. Because Snowden.

2. Because in general you are a negative Nationalist as described by Orwell and the US is your antagonist.

It's obvious that you don't really care about far right wing paramilitary units. This is just an excuse to support Russia and be against the US.

JonLP24

(29,322 posts)
48. If you say so
Thu Feb 12, 2015, 12:49 AM
Feb 2015

I actually complain constantly about the human trafficking and slave labor abuses of US private defense contractors. I also mentioned them in Colombia (there are a lot of privatized militias in Columbia that happen to be fighting for the same side the US, France, UK, and Canada are on).

Really? Snowden? He is only one of the reasons to argue against the Ukrainian government? They are very clearly corrupt that raid the treasury, why would I need Snowden?

MFrohike

(1,980 posts)
55. That's just dumb
Thu Feb 12, 2015, 01:25 AM
Feb 2015

"If you don't argue against every instance of x, then all your arguments against x in a given situation are invalid."

One size fits all! Don't worry about particular circumstances, just be mindlessly consistent! Damn, man, that sounds like the philosophy of a WW1 general, not a thinking human being. That's just an unbelievably stupid, and dishonest, line of argument.

As for the specific situation under discussion, it's quite possible to be concerned with far right militias in Ukraine vs. far right militias in the US. Why? For starters, the ones in Ukraine are backed by the government, which is backed by the US. Except possibly on a local level, I don't know of any systematic program to aid right-wing militias in the US. In fact, I'm well aware of multiple federal and state agencies that consider that particular group of people to be both hostile and dangerous. Given that, I am stumped as to why you'd bring up militias in the US except to deflect the discussion from Ukraine.

As for why someone could be hesitant, or even opposed, to the current intervention in Ukraine, there are reasons that don't involve Mr. Snowden or your pointless namechecking of Mr. Orwell. For instance, a person might consider that Europe is in very bad shape. Does pushing a conflict between Europe and Russia help that situation? Does it help Germany, considered the strongest economy in the region, to largely cut off trade with one of its largest trading partners? Ultimately, what do you gain in Ukraine?

Anyway, unlike most on this board, I haven't picked a team on this issue. I think American involvement will be problematic (for us) at best and the potential gains minimal. I'm not worried about Putin rolling across Europe, as is so often implied on this board, because the old Red Army is dead. He doesn't have the manpower or the resources. He's a problem on his borders, at most. This pathetic imitation of Cold War forms on DU is ridiculous. I've seen the domino theory, now applied to Putin, trotted out daily by people I'm sure who would mock the same if discussed in the context of Vietnam. I've seen HUAC style tactics ("Are you now or have you ever been...&quot pushed by proponents of a Ukrainian intervention. That one makes me a bit sick. If you sound like Tricky Dick, you're clearly doing it wrong.

 

stevenleser

(32,886 posts)
57. Nope, it's exactly right and more flagrant in this situation because Russia, who they are advocating
Thu Feb 12, 2015, 01:30 AM
Feb 2015

for, has the issue in spades.

MFrohike

(1,980 posts)
58. Is that a fact?
Thu Feb 12, 2015, 01:33 AM
Feb 2015

Do explain why it's wrong for an American citizen to be concerned about militias repeatedly described as neo-fascist which are backed by an American client state. If I'm to believe you, an American citizen has no right to question his or her own government's policy unless he or she questions every other government's policy. Is that your argument?

MFrohike

(1,980 posts)
61. Dumbest shit I ever read
Thu Feb 12, 2015, 01:45 AM
Feb 2015

I'll quote you.

"And this last part above is so pertinent to you and others here who advocate against Ukraine on DU. The fact which is a true fact but impossible for you as a negative nationalist to accept is that Russia is extremely antisemitic, has NeoNazi's all over the place, Putin and his party are aligned with far right groups all over Europe and so any kind of attempt by folks on that side to accuse Ukraine of having those issues is laughable."

Using your logic, an American ally could commit genocide and nobody could criticize it because it'd be anti-American to do so. Bravo, sir. Even George Bush didn't have your balls.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
182. Well said, MFrohike. And just a reminder, we do have 'allies' who have committed genocide
Fri Feb 13, 2015, 05:18 PM
Feb 2015

against their own people. See Karamov of Uzbekistan eg.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
173. Blackwater is paid for their war crimes with our tax dollars. THAT is what makes something
Fri Feb 13, 2015, 01:57 PM
Feb 2015

relevant to us. And we know that the Right Wing neocons in Ukraine, seen posing with McCain were promised US help, THAT is what makes THEM relevant to US.

If you have evidence that our tax dollars are paying for all these other right wing elements, then post it and you will just as much outrage.

I would have thought that this was pretty obvious frankly.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
124. 'why the focus on Ukr.' Good question, why were US Senators and State Dept neocons so focused on Ukr
Thu Feb 12, 2015, 06:36 PM
Feb 2015

See, when members of our government 'focus' on countries to the point of stating that 'we will support you', WE have a right to know, what exactly they are planning to do with our Tax Dollars.

Do you object to the American people's right to know when warmongers are acting on our behalf without our knowledge?

So WHY was John McCain, Nuland, Murphy et al so FOCUSED on Ukraine?

Why were they making promises to the would-be coup neo nazis that 'we' would support them? Did the President know about those promises?

Or, like that exposed plot between neocons, Netanyahu and his co-conspirators to undermine the president's policies of peaceful resolution with Iran, were the neocons doing the same thing in Ukr?

A lot of people want to know the answer to that question.

 

stevenleser

(32,886 posts)
50. You could prove me wrong. Link to your complaints about right wing militias in Greece or Iran
Thu Feb 12, 2015, 12:58 AM
Feb 2015

or elsewhere.

But you can't of course, because you don't really care about that.

Karmadillo

(9,253 posts)
51. Link to your complaints about child slavery in the chocolate industry. But you
Thu Feb 12, 2015, 01:07 AM
Feb 2015

can't, of course, because you don't really care about the torment of those children. You'd rather stuff your face full of chocolate laced with the misery of the exploited. What a guy.

The thread, if I'm not mistaken, is about the neo-nazis we're supporting in Ukraine. You could explain why you're so supportive of them, but I imagine you'll find it easier to try to distract us from the OP.

 

stevenleser

(32,886 posts)
52. That comparison would be relevant if I was complaining about that. You are complaining about
Thu Feb 12, 2015, 01:09 AM
Feb 2015

right wing militia units in Ukraine.

I say your complaint about this is B.S. because you conveniently ignore it elsewhere, including Russia, whose side you have adopted here.

That's the issue. Your comparison is a non-sequitur.

 

stevenleser

(32,886 posts)
56. Nope, I'm right as usual, you just further proved my point upthread.
Thu Feb 12, 2015, 01:29 AM
Feb 2015
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026213370#post46

At some point, you are going to need to be honest and explain what your motivation really is here. IMHO there are only two for arguing against Ukraine.

1. Because Snowden.

2. Because in general you are a negative Nationalist as described by Orwell and the US is your antagonist.

------------------------------------------------------------------
You are a negative nationalist as described by Orwell, and the US is your antagonist. The fact that you acknowledge issues with the US is completely unsurprising. That's why you are against Ukraine, because Ukraine wants to ally themselves with the US. Where are your posts fighting against fascism in Russia?

http://orwell.ru/library/essays/nationalism/english/e_nat

.
.
.
By ‘nationalism’ I mean first of all the habit of assuming that human beings can be classified like insects and that whole blocks of millions or tens of millions of people can be confidently labelled ‘good’ or ‘bad’(1). But secondly — and this is much more important — I mean the habit of identifying oneself with a single nation or other unit, placing it beyond good and evil and recognising no other duty than that of advancing its interests. Nationalism is not to be confused with patriotism. Both words are normally used in so vague a way that any definition is liable to be challenged, but one must draw a distinction between them, since two different and even opposing ideas are involved. By ‘patriotism’ I mean devotion to a particular place and a particular way of life, which one believes to be the best in the world but has no wish to force on other people. Patriotism is of its nature defensive, both militarily and culturally. Nationalism, on the other hand, is inseparable from the desire for power. The abiding purpose of every nationalist is to secure more power and more prestige, not for himself but for the nation or other unit in which he has chosen to sink his own individuality.
.
.
.
It is also worth emphasising once again that nationalist feeling can be purely negative. There are, for example, Trotskyists who have become simply enemies of the U.S.S.R. without developing a corresponding loyalty to any other unit. When one grasps the implications of this, the nature of what I mean by nationalism becomes a good deal clearer. A nationalist is one who thinks solely, or mainly, in terms of competitive prestige. He may be a positive or a negative nationalist — that is, he may use his mental energy either in boosting or in denigrating — but at any rate his thoughts always turn on victories, defeats, triumphs and humiliations. He sees history, especially contemporary history, as the endless rise and decline of great power units, and every event that happens seems to him a demonstration that his own side is on the upgrade and some hated rival is on the downgrade. But finally, it is important not to confuse nationalism with mere worship of success. The nationalist does not go on the principle of simply ganging up with the strongest side. On the contrary, having picked his side, he persuades himself that it is the strongest, and is able to stick to his belief even when the facts are overwhelmingly against him. Nationalism is power-hunger tempered by self-deception. Every nationalist is capable of the most flagrant dishonesty, but he is also — since he is conscious of serving something bigger than himself — unshakeably certain of being in the right.
.
.
.

Negative Nationalism

(i) Anglophobia. Within the intelligentsia, a derisive and mildly hostile attitude towards Britain is more or less compulsory, but it is an unfaked emotion in many cases. During the war it was manifested in the defeatism of the intelligentsia, which persisted long after it had become clear that the Axis powers could not win. Many people were undisguisedly pleased when Singapore fell ore when the British were driven out of Greece, and there was a remarkable unwillingness to believe in good news, e.g. el Alamein, or the number of German planes shot down in the Battle of Britain. English left-wing intellectuals did not, of course, actually want the Germans or Japanese to win the war, but many of them could not help getting a certain kick out of seeing their own country humiliated, and wanted to feel that the final victory would be due to Russia, or perhaps America, and not to Britain. In foreign politics many intellectuals follow the principle that any faction backed by Britain must be in the wrong. As a result, ‘enlightened’ opinion is quite largely a mirror-image of Conservative policy. Anglophobia is always liable to reversal, hence that fairly common spectacle, the pacifist of one war who is a bellicist in the next.

(ii) Anti-Semitism. There is little evidence about this at present, because the Nazi persecutions have made it necessary for any thinking person to side with the Jews against their oppressors. Anyone educated enough to have heard the word ‘antisemitism’ claims as a matter of course to be free of it, and anti-Jewish remarks are carefully eliminated from all classes of literature. Actually antisemitism appears to be widespread, even among intellectuals, and the general conspiracy of silence probably helps exacerbate it. People of Left opinions are not immune to it, and their attitude is sometimes affected by the fact that Trotskyists and Anarchists tend to be Jews. But antisemitism comes more naturally to people of Conservative tendency, who suspect Jews of weakening national morale and diluting the national culture. Neo-Tories and political Catholics are always liable to succumb to antisemitism, at least intermittently.

(iii) Trotskyism. This word is used so loosely as to include Anarchists, democratic Socialists and even Liberals. I use it here to mean a doctrinaire Marxist whose main motive is hostility to the Stalin regime. Trotskyism can be better studied in obscure pamphlets or in papers like the Socialist Appeal than in the works of Trotsky himself, who was by no means a man of one idea. Although in some places, for instance in the United States, Trotskyism is able to attract a fairly large number of adherents and develop into an organised movement with a petty fuerher of its own, its inspiration is essentially negative. The Trotskyist is against Stalin just as the Communist is for him, and, like the majority of Communists, he wants not so much to alter the external world as to feel that the battle for prestige is going in his own favour. In each case there is the same obsessive fixation on a single subject, the same inability to form a genuinely rational opinion based on probabilities. The fact that Trotskyists are everywhere a persecuted minority, and that the accusation usually made against them, i. e. of collaborating with the Fascists, is obviously false, creates an impression that Trotskyism is intellectually and morally superior to Communism; but it is doubtful whether there is much difference. The most typical Trotskyists, in any case, are ex-Communists, and no one arrives at Trotskyism except via one of the left-wing movements. No Communist, unless tethered to his party by years of habit, is secure against a sudden lapse into Trotskyism. The opposite process does not seem to happen equally often, though there is no clear reason why it should not.
.
.
.
If one harbours anywhere in one's mind a nationalistic loyalty or hatred, certain facts, although in a sense known to be true, are inadmissible. Here are just a few examples. I list below five types of nationalist, and against each I append a fact which it is impossible for that type of nationalist to accept, even in his secret thoughts:
BRITISH TORY: Britain will come out of this war with reduced power and prestige.
COMMUNIST: If she had not been aided by Britain and America, Russia would have been defeated by Germany.
IRISH NATIONALIST: Eire can only remain independent because of British protection.
TROTSKYIST: The Stalin regime is accepted by the Russian masses.
PACIFIST: Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.
All of these facts are grossly obvious if one's emotions do not happen to be involved: but to the kind of person named in each case they are also intolerable, and so they have to be denied, and false theories constructed upon their denial.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

And this last part above is so pertinent to you and others here who advocate against Ukraine on DU. The fact which is a true fact but impossible for you as a negative nationalist to accept is that Russia is extremely antisemitic, has NeoNazi's all over the place, Putin and his party are aligned with far right groups all over Europe and so any kind of attempt by folks on that side to accuse Ukraine of having those issues is laughable.

Karmadillo

(9,253 posts)
80. Poor you. I'll see your Orwell and raise you Jung.
Thu Feb 12, 2015, 07:20 AM
Feb 2015

Last edited Thu Feb 12, 2015, 11:32 AM - Edit history (1)

Why are you so unconcerned about fascism and the misery it inflicts when it serves neocon purposes? Maybe Carl Jung can help you. I'm sure you're somewhat of a decent guy and in some unconscious way, you're shamed by your embrace of the violence in Ukraine. You probably know instinctively that support for neo-nazis is wrong, even though consciously you've created an elaborate self-justification for your position. And so that shame, kept from your consciousness, gets projected on to posters here at DU who oppose the fascism you embrace. That seems a reasonable explanation for why you keep telling everyone on the board opposed to fascism in Ukraine that they really support fascism everywhere else but Ukraine (which, let's be honest, makes absolutely no sense). So here's Jung on how you're projecting this suppressed material on to others and how you can escape the process:

http://jennalilla.com/2013/01/22/the-ego-and-its-projections/

<edit>

Carl Jung says that our shadow is closely related to our projections. Because we are unable to see the shadowy aspect of our own personality, we project them onto other people. Jung explains:

“While some traits peculiar to the shadow can be recognized without too much difficulty as one’s own personal qualities, in this case both insight and good will are unavailing because the cause of emotion appears to lie, beyond all possibility of doubt, in other person. No matter how obvious it may be to the neutral observer that it is a matter of projections, there is little hope that the subject will perceive this himself. He must be convinced that he throws a very long shadow before he is willing withdraw his emotionally-toned projections from their object…

As we know, it is not the conscious subject but unconscious which does the projecting.” (CW 9ii, para. 16- 17)


The problem with our projections is that they isolate us from our environment and from other human beings. Our projections block the formation of deep relationship with the people in our lives. If we are busy seeing our own projections how can we see others as they truly are?

“The effect of projection to isolate the subject from his environment, since instead of real relation to it there is now only an illusory one. Projection changes the world into the replica of one’s own unknown face… The more projections are thrust in between the subject and the environment, the harder it is for the ego to see through its illusions” (CW 9ii, para. 17)


According to Jung, each of us must come to terms with the ways we have projected parts of our personality on the world. It is only in doing so that we can reclaim the wholeness of our personality.

“It is often tragic to see how blatantly a man bungles his own life and the lives of others yet remains totally incapable of seeing how much the whole tragedy originates in himself, and how he continually feeds it and keeps it going. Not consciously, course– for consciously he is engaged in bewailing and cursing a faithless world that recedes further and further into the distance. Rather, it is an unconscious factor which spins the illusions that veil his world. And what is being spun is a cocoon, which in the end will completely envelop him.” (CW 9ii, para. 18)


So maybe if you would stop embracing fascism in Ukraine and joining in the neo-con push for more and more regime change and more and more chaos and more and more bloodshed, you'd be able to stop projecting the shamefulness of your position on to the rest of us and enter into discussions at DU without such irrational hostility.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
181. Have you ever posted a thread on those issues? THIS thread is about
Fri Feb 13, 2015, 04:50 PM
Feb 2015

neo nazis in Ukraine. If you haven't posted a thread on right wing militias here or anywhere else, then, by your logic, you don't care about those issues.

The OP obviously cares that the US may be funding such people. Do you agree with him/her? SHOULD the US be funding Ukraine's right wing, neo Nazi militias?

polly7

(20,582 posts)
71. It's obvious you're not one of those in eastern Unkraine losing family members
Thu Feb 12, 2015, 03:34 AM
Feb 2015

to these brutes. Of course it's fucking relevant in Ukraine. Why try to side-step the question and switch the conversation to Russia???

I just love it when those who support coups, austerity and suffering for others using these fascists defend it, very telling .....

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
140. With you right there
Thu Feb 12, 2015, 08:30 PM
Feb 2015

I just love it when people pretend to detest fascism on one hand while cheering it with the other.

I'm pretty sure that half the people in this thread arguing for fascism couldn't accurately identify what fascism actually is, and don't realize that's what they are arguing for.

"Because, Reasons" seems to be the answer.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
62. Neo Nazi right wing elements are part of the Kiev Government. The US should NOT be
Thu Feb 12, 2015, 01:53 AM
Feb 2015

supporting these extremists:



U.S. Senator John McCain, right, meets Ukrainian opposition leaders Arseniy Yatsenyuk, left, and Oleh Tyahnybok in Kiev, Ukraine, Saturday, Dec. 14, 2013.

Oleh Tyahnaybok is the leader of the neo nazi party, Svoboda.

[link: http://www.businessinsider.com/john-mccain-meets-oleh-tyahnybok-in-ukraine-2013-12#ixzz3RVTRXud1|John McCain Went To Ukraine And Stood On Stage With A Man Accused Of Being An Anti-Semitic Neo-Nazi]

So much on this everywhere, except in the NYT it seems. One more, but there is plenty of info about the Kiev Coup Govt's embrace of these neo-nazis. McCain and Nuland seem right at home with them, but what else could we expect from a warmonger and a neocon?

Ukraine Ethnic Purity Extremists [Neo Nazis threaten Russians, Jews, non-whites]



Nuland with the neo nazi leader

One of the “Big Three” political parties behind the protests is the ultra-nationalist Svoboda, whose leader, Oleh Tyahnybok, has called for the liberation of his country from the “Muscovite-Jewish mafia.” After the 2010 conviction of the Nazi death camp guard John Demjanjuk for his supporting role in the death of nearly 30,000 people at the Sobibor camp, Tyahnybok rushed to Germany to declare him a hero who was “fighting for truth.” In the Ukrainian parliament, where Svoboda holds an unprecedented 37 seats, Tyahnybok’s deputy Yuriy Mykhalchyshyn is fond of quoting Joseph Goebbels – he has even founded a think tank originally called “the Joseph Goebbels Political Research Center.”


Nice friends the neocons have. But when you're plotting a coup, I guess you take what you can get, or something.

And that is 'our guy Yatze' in the photo also. That's what Nuland called him. And what a coincidence, that's what she got, her guy, after the coup.

polly7

(20,582 posts)
79. You've got to be kidding.
Thu Feb 12, 2015, 05:23 AM
Feb 2015

Last edited Thu Feb 12, 2015, 05:56 AM - Edit history (1)

It's been proven on this board over and over.

Seeing No Neo-Nazi Militias in Ukraine
September 8, 2014

An Aug. 10 article in the New York Times mentioned the neo-Nazi paramilitary role at the end of a long story on another topic. If you plowed through the story to the last three paragraphs, you would discover the remarkable fact that Nazi storm troopers were attacking a European population for the first time since World War II and that these neo-Nazi militias were largely out of control.

“The fighting for Donetsk has taken on a lethal pattern: The regular army bombards separatist positions from afar, followed by chaotic, violent assaults by some of the half-dozen or so paramilitary groups surrounding Donetsk who are willing to plunge into urban combat,” the Times reported.

“Officials in Kiev say the militias and the army coordinate their actions, but the militias, which count about 7,000 fighters, are angry and, at times, uncontrollable. One known as Azov, which took over the village of Marinka, flies a neo-Nazi symbol resembling a Swastika as its flag.” [See Consortiumnews.com’s “NYT Discovers Ukraine’s Neo-Nazis at War.”]

The conservative London Telegraph offered more details about the Azov battalion in an article by correspondent Tom Parfitt, who wrote: “Kiev’s use of volunteer paramilitaries to stamp out the Russian-backed Donetsk and Luhansk ‘people’s republics’… should send a shiver down Europe’s spine.


And much more: https://consortiumnews.com/2014/09/08/seeing-no-neo-nazi-militias-in-ukraine/


The bias is so strong that the mainstream media has largely ignored the remarkable story of the Kiev regime willfully dispatching Nazi storm troopers to kill ethnic Russians in the east, something that hasn’t happened in Europe since World War II.

For Western news organizations that are quick to note the slightest uptick in neo-Nazism in Europe, there has been a willful blindness to Kiev’s premeditated use of what amount to Nazi death squads undertaking house-to-house killings in eastern Ukraine. [See Consortiumnews.com’s “Seeing No Neo-Nazi Militias in Ukraine.”]

The Russian government has repeatedly protested these death-squad operations and other crimes committed by the Kiev regime, but the U.S. mainstream media is so in the tank for the western Ukrainians that it has suppressed this aspect of the crisis, typically burying references to the neo-Nazi militias at the end of stories or dismissing these accounts as “Russian propaganda.”

https://consortiumnews.com/2015/02/06/nuclear-war-and-clashing-ukraine-narratives/



The Azov battalion uses the neo-Nazi Wolfsangel (Wolf''s Hook) symbol on its banner (Tom Parfitt)

Phantom said he was such a Russian but that he was opposed to Moscow supporting “terrorists” in his homeland: “I volunteered and all I demanded was a gun and the possibility to defend my country.”

Asked about his Nazi sympathies, he said: “After the First World World War, Germany was a total mess and Hitler rebuilt it: he built houses and roads, put in telephone lines, and created jobs. I respect that.” Homosexuality is a mental illness and the scale of the Holocaust “is a big question”, he added.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/11025137/Ukraine-crisis-the-neo-Nazi-brigade-fighting-pro-Russian-separatists.html

Timothy Garton Ash and Professor Timothy Snyder, the former a writer for the Guardian, known for his political activism in Poland during the Soviet period, and the latter a professor of history at Yale University, not only fail miserably in portraying events in Ukraine accurately but in fact commit the grave errors (if not crimes considering the many human lives already lost) mentioned above. Both seek to demonize East Ukrainians who are ethnically Russian, while turning a blind eye to the re-emergence of fascism in Kiev and to war crimes committed by the Kiev government against its own civilians. One would expect such behavior from paid propagandists or from closet racists, not from liberal academics and writers.

Following the downing of the Malaysia Airlines plane MH17 in East Ukraine, before an investigation has been even begun, and although it is equally likely that the Ukrainian Government could have possibly carried out the act, Timothy Garton Ash already had all the answers. In his article for the New York Times titled "‘Protecting’ Russians in Ukraine Has Fatal Consequences", Ash traced the roots of the current crisis in Ukraine to a speech made by Vladimir Putin while serving as a deputy mayor of St. Petersburg in 1994. Ash explains that Putin argued then that the collapse of the USSR left 25 million Russians outside the Russian Federation without protection and that therefore this speech was an indication that Putin will intervene in neighboring countries to protect Russians there, when faced in danger. From this it follows, according to Ash, that it is Putin’s alleged actions to aid rebels in East Ukraine that are responsible for the toppling of the jet.


If we are considering rhetoric alone, would it not be appropriate for Ash to mention in this article, not speeches made 25 years ago but that ethnic Russians in East Ukraine today have come under a barrage of racist attacks by the Ukrainian government, with the former prime minister calling them "subhumans" and another leading politician calling for them to be nuked? It is only reasonable to assume that the threats that were directed at ethnic Russians by the Ukrainian government should be considered or at least mentioned, and that people have an inalienable right for protection even if they happen to be ethnically Russian. To make matters worse, Ash mentions nowhere in his article that the Ukrainian government has engaged in a brutal bombing campaign of residential areas in East Ukraine in what it terms an "anti-terror operation" in which over 1,000 civilians have been killed in cold blood. Do these facts not need to be mentioned when seeking to understand the context in which the downing of a plane took place? After all, these are actions are taking place in the present, not in 1994.


http://original.antiwar.com/joshua_tartakovsky/2014/08/15/mass-killing-in-east-ukraine-and-the-failure-of-liberal-intellectuals/

"Subhumans"! - when have we heard that before. I lost family members fighting the last freak that considered millions of human beings subhumans, one tortured and murdered in one of his camps at the very start of the war, just a kid, really. That you defend fascists and people like this makes me absolutely SICK. And 'nuked'? What the fuck kind of animal calls for that? Ukrainian CITIZENS who don't recognize an illegally coup-sponsored gov't and don't wish to live under austerity? People who defend this, why? I believe I know, and it's beyond ugly. You might want to reconsider all your insults against people just trying to get at the real truth, because you're failing miserably at anything resembling reality.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024613019

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6202547

(And btw .... why was it necessary to install a new Finance Minister, a former U.S. diplomat who took Ukrainian citizenship in December 2014 "who had been in charge of a U.S.-taxpayer-financed $150 million Ukrainian investment fund which involved substantial insider dealings?&quot

https://consortiumnews.com/2015/02/06/nuclear-war-and-clashing-ukraine-narratives/
 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
133. Oh, dodging the question
Thu Feb 12, 2015, 07:48 PM
Feb 2015

That's a useful tactic.

The fact that most recognize it as a tactic, however, lessens the effectiveness.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
10. Parry is correct, as he was when the NYT was working for the neocons to start the Iraq War.
Wed Feb 11, 2015, 07:57 PM
Feb 2015

The neocons are trying to undermine this President's foreign policy. All the usual suspects, are helping them, again.

Anyone remember Judith Miller, the Rendon Group?

I bet not only does Parry remember, most of US remember.

Obama needs Russia along with the four other nations who are helping him to avoid a neocon war with Iran.

It's interesting how the two are tied, the push for conflict with Russia, while Russia is helping the President foil the neocons dream of War with Iran.

But, it's easy to fall for the propaganda I suppose, if you don't see the whole picture.

Parry has always been able to do that. He was slammed before for his attacks on the NYT and all the other so-called 'news' media during Iraq.

I doubt he cares much. He tells the truth and as has always been the case, the truth can be inconvenient, and those who find it so, tend to attack the messenger. THAT became old after the messengers were proven to be right over the past decade. It just isn't working this time.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
3. The New York Times has ignored NAZI presence in CIA, Pentagon, etc.
Wed Feb 11, 2015, 07:44 PM
Feb 2015

Seeing photos of our "allies" might disturb people who do remember why "money trumps peace."

 

2banon

(7,321 posts)
4. KnR for Truth in analysis.
Wed Feb 11, 2015, 07:48 PM
Feb 2015

Thank you for posting, I am in complete agreement with Robert Parry's Spot On analysis. It's not as if we haven't seen this before the Old Gray Mare.

After all, promulgating Lies and More Lies on behalf of the State Dept seems to be their bailiwick.

How soon so many forget the atrocious trafficking of TURD LADEN LIES wrt the run up on the Invasion of Iraq.

JonLP24

(29,322 posts)
14. Who exactly is governing Ukraine?
Wed Feb 11, 2015, 08:53 PM
Feb 2015

<snip>

Olexander Turchynov
Interim president

The deputy leader of Fatherland, Olexander Turchynov maintains very close ties with Yulia Tymoshenko, the controversial former prime minister who was jailed under the old regime. A 50-year-old from Dnipropetrovsk, many see his appointment as a move paving the way back to the political top spot for the recently released one-time gas-sector oligarch, Tymoshenko.

Turchynov had a prominent role in the Euromaidan protests and was placed under investigation by the security services of the former president Viktor Yanukovych for his involvement in organising the protesters' "self-defence units".

<snip>

Turchynov has a long political career and has previously held positions including head of Ukraine's domestic security service [SBU], acting prime minister and deputy prime minister. WikiLeaks documents suggest that during his role as security service chief in 2005 he destroyed documents that allegedly implicated Tymoshenko as having links to organised crime - allegations she has always denied.

<snip>

Oleksandr Sych
Deputy prime minister

Sych, 49, is a member of the far-right nationalist Svoboda (Freedom) party. He is an anti-abortion activist and once publicly suggested that women should "lead the kind of lifestyle to avoid the risk of rape, including refraining from drinking alcohol and being in controversial company". He has attracted criticism from women's and human rights groups.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/04/who-governing-ukraine-olexander-turchynov

MineralMan

(146,325 posts)
15. I see no evidence that the NYT deliberately omitted anything.
Wed Feb 11, 2015, 08:54 PM
Feb 2015

This looks like Russian propaganda to me. I'm weary of unsupported claims that originate in Moscow, frankly.

JonLP24

(29,322 posts)
22. Its been backed up and verified elsewhere several times over
Wed Feb 11, 2015, 09:29 PM
Feb 2015

There is a strong far right nationalist movement and many of them are in the current government.

Svoboda (political party)

The All-Ukrainian Union "Svoboda" (Ukrainian: Всеукраїнське об’єднання «Свобода», Vseukrayinske obyednannia "Svoboda&quot , translated as Freedom, is a Ukrainian nationalist political party.[2] The party won in the late October 2014 Ukrainian parliamentary election 6 seats; losing 30 seats of the 37 seats (its first seats in the Ukrainian Parliament[8]) it had won in the 2012 parliamentary election.[nb 1][11][12] From 27 February 2014 till 12 November 2014 three members of the party held positions in Ukraine's government.[13]

The party was founded in 1991 as the Social-National Party of Ukraine (Ukrainian: Соціал-національна партія України and acts as a populist proponent of nationalism and anti-communism. It is positioned on the right of the Ukrainian political spectrum,[2][14][15][16] and some scholars classify them as far right.[4][17][18][19] Scholars and journalists disagree over Svoboda's politics, some stating members of Svoboda are fascistic or anti-semitic,[20][21][22][23][24][25][26] while other scholars and media, as well as Svoboda itself, state that its politics are nationalist, but not fascistic or antisemitic.[27][28][29][30][31][32]

<snip>

Svoboda has been described as an anti-Semitic and sometimes a Neo-Nazi party by some journalists,[133][139][155] organizations that monitor hate speech,[156] Jewish organizations,[157][158] and political opponents.[56]

Svoboda advisor Yuriy Mykhalchyshyn started a blog called "‘Joseph Goebbels Political Research Centre" in 2005, later changing "Joseph Goebbels" to "Ernst Jünger."[2] Mykhalchyshyn wrote a book in 2010 citing works by Nazi theorists Ernst Röhm, Gregor Strasser and Goebbels.[54][139][159] Elsewhere Mykhalchyshyn referred to the Holocaust as a "period of Light in history".[160]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svoboda_%28political_party%29#Allegations_of_neo-nazism_and_political_extremism`

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
43. I do, but then I've been following the story.
Thu Feb 12, 2015, 12:21 AM
Feb 2015

McCain, did they report on his visit with the leader of the Neo Nazi party? Lol, poor McCain, that photo pretty much wiped out whatever credibility he had. And he POSED for it!

That was when he was over there backing the Coup. Promising 'our help'. I always wondered if Obama was informed of his antics for the neocons before he went. I doubt it.

Netanyahu, McCain, Dermer, Nuland (who was caught on tape for the world to hear, plotting the coup btw and who 'we' would install afterwards) and the neocons who are still around, attempting to UNDERMINE Obama's Foreign Policies, are desperately trying to get the US involved in yet another WAR over there.

But the exposure of the Netanyahu plot with his co-conspirators, Dermer and the puppet, Boehner, has cast a whole new light on their efforts to undermine this President's foreign policies which, in case no one noticed, involve a partnership with Russia, China, the UK, Germany and France to resolve the Iran issue peacefully.

The NYT, as it did during the Iraq War frenzy, appears to be neglecting to report on certain pertinent facts.

I doubt anyone who was around during that period will ever forget the Judith Miller affair and how the NYT lost its credibility by allowing her to publish the neocon lies.

 

Maedhros

(10,007 posts)
127. You realize, of course, that your post RE: origin of Parry's information
Thu Feb 12, 2015, 07:14 PM
Feb 2015

it itself an "unsupported claim."

Pot, meet kettle.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
137. MM, I respect you
Thu Feb 12, 2015, 07:56 PM
Feb 2015

You are a great DUer.

That said, I am wary of knee-jerk reactions to foreign affairs. I understand it, but I strive to be a little more level-headed about it.

malaise

(269,157 posts)
16. Which is why the Brian Williams lie is such a joke
Wed Feb 11, 2015, 08:56 PM
Feb 2015

M$Greedia lies all the time - it's all about the agenda

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
19. It's not Parry that matters. It's his reporting. And that is factual.
Wed Feb 11, 2015, 09:16 PM
Feb 2015

Same for his analysis. His opinion is based on logic.

And the main point missed by all the attacks on Parry in this thread:

The New York Times is missing the connection between the NAZIs and the Ukraine military and the government in Kiev.

That important connection also is missed from the reporting that follows the paper's lead.

 

stupidicus

(2,570 posts)
24. As is almost always the case, his case is unimpeachable in terms of the facts, but BHO apologists
Wed Feb 11, 2015, 09:39 PM
Feb 2015

will overlook that little detail because the picture he painted here -- that is really "liberal" media-wide -- obviously soils the white hat our leaders are trying to wear on the matter.

The only surprise is the lack of a "Putin-lover/apologist" charge that such efforts usually get.

You aren't one of those, are ya? lol

grasswire

(50,130 posts)
65. I don't think they are BHO apologists.
Thu Feb 12, 2015, 02:47 AM
Feb 2015

I believe that's a fig leaf. I believe it's something more sinister than that.

grasswire

(50,130 posts)
97. I did believe they were were Obama cult for a long time.
Thu Feb 12, 2015, 12:53 PM
Feb 2015

And perhaps, for some, that's it.

But Obama is being used as a deflection in order to protect the MIC, the surveillance state, TPTB. And that means some of the people posting here and raising that Obama shield are, in fact, agitators. Paid agitators. Of the worst kind. And it explains why the very same people show up thread after thread after thread to pretend to defend Obama.

It's a very sick and twisted ploy.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
142. It's pretty obvious
Thu Feb 12, 2015, 08:49 PM
Feb 2015

I'm not sure how crafty they think they are, but laying rotten eggs seems to be their specialty. It's only a matter of time before the rotten eggs start stinking.

grasswire

(50,130 posts)
145. the question must be, then, to what end?
Thu Feb 12, 2015, 09:01 PM
Feb 2015

To what end?

No minds are changed here at DU by those who are using Obama as a fig leaf to deflect attention from the corporate-surveillance-imperial-militaristic state.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
148. Knee jerk reaction, maybe
Thu Feb 12, 2015, 09:27 PM
Feb 2015

But more likely a blatant use of propaganda to deceive, distract, divide and disarm.

On message boards, derail takes the place of disarm, but it's the same logic. Derail any discussion that could cast the state in a bad light, distract by bringing in a bunch of crap, deceive if you think you can get away with it, and create dissension where you can.

It's a pity that they are so obvious in what they are doing, we might not have caught on this early.

 

reddread

(6,896 posts)
82. +1
Thu Feb 12, 2015, 08:57 AM
Feb 2015

Obama means nothing to the moves being made.
but a convenient way to conflate racism or whatever dark motivations can be tied
to people offended by imperial aggression and political double dealing.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
138. Incredibly consistent, too
Thu Feb 12, 2015, 08:10 PM
Feb 2015

As though there is no other thinking other than whistleblowers = bad.

Weird, don't you think?

 

Ramses

(721 posts)
153. They could'nt care less about Obama
Fri Feb 13, 2015, 12:05 AM
Feb 2015

Their goal is supporting the MIC, the corrupt judicial system and the rigged electronic voting system, as well as always always supporting disaster capitalism. They they can do some hippie punching is just a fringe benefit. And you are correct. It is much more sinister

grasswire

(50,130 posts)
154. let's see..
Fri Feb 13, 2015, 01:00 AM
Feb 2015

who would want to support the MIC and the corrupt judicial system and the rigged voting, and disaster capitalism?

Hmmmm. One surname hits all those points.

They have diversified in their strategies. The mission remains the same.

 

stupidicus

(2,570 posts)
172. there may be some merit to that
Fri Feb 13, 2015, 12:05 PM
Feb 2015

for some anyway.

Imo, anyone who attacks the integrity and/or credibility of Parry on such matters is either dishonest or a dumbass unworthy of much beyond that designation.

George II

(67,782 posts)
26. Some American soldiers display the Confederate Flag on their uniforms, equipment, etc....
Wed Feb 11, 2015, 09:43 PM
Feb 2015

....does that mean that they are Confederate soldiers?

JonLP24

(29,322 posts)
30. No but one side is clearly mostly far right nationalistic (East)
Wed Feb 11, 2015, 10:09 PM
Feb 2015

and the other side mostly isn't (who also weren't allowed to vote in some places but those who did turnout was very low in the East)

I was in the military and we were told we aren't allowed to display any flag so I'm not aware of 1 single case though I don't doubt there are. They're just clearly breaking regulations.

Fuddnik

(8,846 posts)
34. I only saw one. And it was in a barracks room, not a uniform.
Wed Feb 11, 2015, 11:21 PM
Feb 2015

Back in 1969 or '70. My Navy room-mate decorated our room with a Confederate flag, and was told immediately, to take it down. The ONLY flag he could display was the US flag.

He took it down. He wasn't trying to make a statement, just thought it was an innocent decoration.

 

stevenleser

(32,886 posts)
45. If we're making a fair comparison, what are the militia folks like in the US? Are they progressives?
Thu Feb 12, 2015, 12:39 AM
Feb 2015

Because the one unit in question in Ukraine is a militia type organization.

If you look at the paramilitary organizations in most countries, they tend to be far right crazies or whatever passes for it in the particular country.

Oilwellian

(12,647 posts)
32. No surprise the NYT is pushing the latest neocon propaganda
Wed Feb 11, 2015, 10:35 PM
Feb 2015

I posted an OP yesterday after reading several congressional Dems were encouraging Obama to send arms to Ukraine's military, which includes neo-nazi militias.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026207125#post11

It shouldn't surprise us there are now neo-nazi militias on the border of Russia.

Someone thinks he won the presidency and conducts his own foreign policy. Sound familiar?

John McCain stands with Neo-Nazi leader and Ukrainian politician Oleh Tyahnybok

 

Purveyor

(29,876 posts)
33. kick. Thanks for posting and a great thread. Some are finally starting to pay
Wed Feb 11, 2015, 11:05 PM
Feb 2015

attention as I knew they would.

 

NuclearDem

(16,184 posts)
53. After his disastrous "reporting" on MH-17
Thu Feb 12, 2015, 01:11 AM
Feb 2015

Parry's opinion on Ukraine is as utterly worthless as the NYT he rails against.

Fuck him.

 

NuclearDem

(16,184 posts)
87. Aw, that's cute!
Thu Feb 12, 2015, 10:41 AM
Feb 2015

Because the only people who could find Parry's writing despicable must be Nazis!

So cute

 

NuclearDem

(16,184 posts)
90. Yep, people who despise fascist Kremlin stooges
Thu Feb 12, 2015, 10:47 AM
Feb 2015

are in bed with Ukrainian Neo-Nazis!

How adorable

 

NuclearDem

(16,184 posts)
92. This might shock you, but I'm not in favor of Western or Russian intervention
Thu Feb 12, 2015, 11:00 AM
Feb 2015

And I still find Parry's reporting abhorrent.

 

Maedhros

(10,007 posts)
128. Here's an idea: rebut the OP.
Thu Feb 12, 2015, 07:20 PM
Feb 2015

Show how what Parry is reporting is wrong. Back up your assertions with a link or two.

Before you do, go and read this: https://bookofbadarguments.com/

Specifically, page 42.

 

NuclearDem

(16,184 posts)
131. Other posters have done more than enough to show how Parry is useless when it comes to Ukraine.
Thu Feb 12, 2015, 07:26 PM
Feb 2015

The man parrots whatever the Kremlin line is that day (one time, didn't even bother to choose a different graphic from the one RT used). His "reporting" on MH-17 was utterly laughable, and stank of the same ridiculous anonymous sourcing and physics-defying nonsense the NYT was guilty of in the lead up to Iraq.

 

Maedhros

(10,007 posts)
134. And another post filled with soft, spongy pablum.
Thu Feb 12, 2015, 07:52 PM
Feb 2015

Refer to https://bookofbadarguments.com/

Other posters have done more than enough to show how Parry is useless when it comes to Ukraine.

Page 14 "Appeal to Irrelevant Authority" -

"An argument becomes fallacious when the appeal is to an authority who is not an expert on the issue at hand. A similar appeal worth noting is the appeal to vague authority, where an idea is attributed to a vague collective. For example, Professors in Germany showed such and such to be true."

The man parrots whatever the Kremlin line is that day (one time, didn't even bother to choose a different graphic from the one RT used).

Page 32 "Guilt by Association" -

"Guilt by association is discrediting an argument for proposing an idea that is shared by some socially demonized individual or group. For example, My opponent is calling for a healthcare system that would resemble that of socialist countries. Clearly, that would be unacceptable. Whether or not the proposed healthcare system resembles that of socialist countries has no bearing whatsoever on whether it is good or bad; it is a complete non sequitur."

Page 44 "Circular Reasoning (aka Begging the Question)" -

"Circular reasoning is one of four types of arguments known as begging the question, [Damer] where one implicitly or explicitly assumes the conclusion in one or more of the premisses. In circular reasoning, a conclusion is either blatantly used as a premiss, or more often, it is reworded to appear as though it is a different proposition when in fact it is not. For example, You're utterly wrong because you're not making any sense. Here, the two propositions are one and the same since being wrong and not making any sense, in this context, mean the same thing. The argument is simply stating, ‘Because of x therefore x,’ which is meaningless."

His "reporting" on MH-17 was utterly laughable, and stank of the same ridiculous anonymous sourcing and physics-defying nonsense the NYT was guilty of in the lead up to Iraq.

Maybe you should address this in a thread about the MH-17 incident. We're discussing Neo Nazis in the Ukraine in this one.
 

Maedhros

(10,007 posts)
151. It doesn't really matter, though, in the long run.
Thu Feb 12, 2015, 10:50 PM
Feb 2015

Parry wrote something that casts a bad light on the Obama Administration. Period. That makes it false, by definition.

#BOGLogic

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
152. I don't know
Fri Feb 13, 2015, 12:01 AM
Feb 2015

I'm beginning to think there is something deeper here.

I just can't believe the Tiger Beat fan club are that ardent after 6 years. The fanatical defense of every single thing the CIA, the FBI and the NSA do is a tad weird. It's nearly psychotic with the fervency in which it is employed.

Food for thought, and think about those that lurk in threads that concern those topics.

 

Maedhros

(10,007 posts)
156. I've noticed that as well.
Fri Feb 13, 2015, 01:13 AM
Feb 2015

The intensity of the vitriol leveled at the messengers - Parry, Greenwald, Manning, Assange - seems much greater than expected, or reasonable.

The simplest explanation is that it's theater.

Oilwellian

(12,647 posts)
84. Well well well, what have we here?
Thu Feb 12, 2015, 10:17 AM
Feb 2015

Do my eyes deceive me? Does that thread show one of America's propaganda mills, attack another corporate owned Pravda, with a touch of truth? Is the worm turning for America's propaganda mills with zero credibility and shitty ratings?

Blue_Tires

(55,445 posts)
100. So...Parry again uses pure Moscow propaganda
Thu Feb 12, 2015, 03:09 PM
Feb 2015

to refute Washington propaganda...

Kinda counter-productive, innit? That Parry gets so myopic crafting his anti-Washington message that he can't tell which way is up anymore?

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
117. It strikes me as
Thu Feb 12, 2015, 04:14 PM
Feb 2015

butt hurt due to measles when herd immunity and non stupid parents could have prevented it.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
125. The NYT was a propaganda arm for the neocons in their quest for War in Iraq. Parry gets it right
Thu Feb 12, 2015, 06:42 PM
Feb 2015

again. They are doing the same thing regarding Ukraine.

Neocons have been active in Kiev for quite some time, posing with neo-nazis for photo ops before the coup.

It is shameful that this country has no real news media anymore.

You would think that after their huge embarrassment after they were exposed (Judith Miller eg) as aiding and abetting the Bush/Cheney lies and propaganda, they would try to avoid doing so again.

I see few here slamming the messenger have addressed the FACTS stated by Parry.

 

Maedhros

(10,007 posts)
130. That's because indignation is all they've got.
Thu Feb 12, 2015, 07:25 PM
Feb 2015

They don't like what Parry writes, and lack a reasonable counter-argument, so they disparage his character and hurl invectives.

Childish, really. If DU were half the place it used to be, we'd take a flamethrower to those types of posts.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
135. I think we are
Thu Feb 12, 2015, 07:53 PM
Feb 2015

Look at the thread. Most think it's childish horse manure.

There are only a handful of folks that are hurling invective (and they are, indeed) and they are advertising themselves as such.

Heck, I wish more would present themselves so obviously so we know who to ignore.

 

Maedhros

(10,007 posts)
136. I urge liberal use of the Ignore function for posters who lack the basic capacity
Thu Feb 12, 2015, 07:54 PM
Feb 2015

to frame an argument.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
183. Yes, they would never have survived on DU in the past. The reason they don't like Parry is
Fri Feb 13, 2015, 08:09 PM
Feb 2015

obvious, HE hasn't changed, still reports on facts as he always did. But something has changed. Doesn't take a lot of imagination to figure that one out.

polly7

(20,582 posts)
186. Yes, .......... again.
Sat Feb 14, 2015, 08:00 AM
Feb 2015

For a respected journalist known to have based everything he wrote on investigating facts to suddenly turn all Fauxy and allow himself to be led by the nose posting what some have called here meaningless gibberish, doesn't make one bit of sense. You're right, it doesn't take a lot of imagination to figure out why they're doing it. Check how many threads on Ukraine have been shut down here - by many journalists and reporters, since it all began. Some are so afraid of the truth, it boggles the mind.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
141. David Talbot of Salon talked about a famous reporter at New York Times who was an 'Ex-NAZI.'
Thu Feb 12, 2015, 08:40 PM
Feb 2015
Patrice Lumumba, president of the Congo. David Talbot explained:

During his nearly decade long run as America's intelligence chief from January 1953 to November 1961, Allen Dulles turned the CIA into the most lethal and most secretive agency in Washington. He recruited bright, young, ambitious men from Ivy League backgrounds and he turned them loose on the world. They were "Mad Men" with a "License to Kill."

President Eisenhower gave Dulles and his killing machine a long leash, because he thought that by allowing the CIA to engage in covert proxy wars in the Third World, he was avoiding a nuclear confrontation with the Soviet Union. But, this cold war calculation inflicted severe collateral damage upon the developing world.

Leaders and political movements that could have lifted their nations out of poverty and suffering were cut down in their prime. Leaders like Patrice Lumumba, the young, charismatic nationalist in the former Belgian Congo.

Lumumba's efforts to lift his people out of the near-slavery imposed on them by their Belgian colonial masters elicited the wrath of U.S. and European mining conglomerates. And, yes, these mining giants were, indeed, represented by the Dulles law firm. Lumumba was inevitably portrayed by the CIA and the agency's assets in the media in the United States and Europe as a reckless communist and he was targeted for elimination.

[font color="red"]By the way, i'm speaking here of media assets like the New York Times correspondent in the Congo who covered the sad end of Patrice Lumumba, a man named Paul Hoffmann, who's a familiar byline to many of us who read New York Times foreign coverage for many years. Paul Hoffman was an ex-NAZI who had served U.S. intelligence since (the end of) World War II. This is the man the New York Times sent to cover Patrice Lumumba in his final days.[/font color]

The CIA also sent its Doctor of Death, Sydney Gottlieb, to the Congo with a tube of toxic toothpaste. When this poison plot didn't work, the agency brought in contract killers from Europe.

Finally, in one of the CIA's first cases of what would become known as extraordinary rendition, Lumumba was captured with the CIA's help and handed over to his mortal political enemies, a gang of killers that included CIA mercenaries.

But, the CIA continues to this day to deny any responsibility -- any direct responsibility for Patrice Lumumba's death. The agency is directly implicated in his savage torture and murder. Lumumba's assassination would lead to decades of dictatorship and social collapse and further misery in the Congo.

It's important to know the timing of Lumumba's murder: January 17, 1961 -- just three days before the inauguration of President Kennedy.

OP from 2013: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024105197#post113

Most Americans never heard NYT Judy Miller was emailing with Dr. David Kelly on the day he "suicided."
 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
149. Octafish, you are a gem
Thu Feb 12, 2015, 09:45 PM
Feb 2015

You bring a great deal of knowledge to DU, and attempts to disparage your character are not brooked by me.

I think most of DU is grateful for your posts and research.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
159. I keep wondering why the NYT ever got its reputation as a credible news organization.
Fri Feb 13, 2015, 01:31 AM
Feb 2015

A Nazi, the more you learn the more you wonder when there ever be some justice for the victims of all these crimes.

I keep hoping we are going through a very bad period in our history as other nations did. And that we are better than they were and will not allow it to continue much longer.

Imagine if Lumumba had lived? How different that country might be from the tragic, horrible place it is.

And why were always on the wrong side, always supporting Dictators, involved in coups that took down good, democratic leaders?

 

Yorktown

(2,884 posts)
169. Ukraine's brown shirts don't mean much
Fri Feb 13, 2015, 02:36 AM
Feb 2015

They are mostly an echo of the distant past. Namely: the Soviets created a massive famine (the Holomodor) by forcibly requisitioning all grains, including the seeds for the next harvest. 10 million died.

The Ukrainian nationalists end 1940 and early 1941 tried to associate with Hitler to break free from the Soviets they hated. Double bad move: bad morally, and Hitler imprisoned them as soon as Fall 1941 anyway. But one of their leaders (Stepan Bandera) retains the aura of a bad boy Joan of Arc, the guy who stood up to the Russians.

So a good deal of the nazi paraphernalia in Ukraine is a kind of folk worship of the nationalists of yesteryear. But it's true Ukraine also has its share of skinheads who like nazi symbols like any European far right movement does.

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