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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsRobert Parry: NYT Whites Out Ukraine’s Brown Shirts
https://consortiumnews.com/2015/02/11/nyt-whites-out-ukraines-brown-shirts/Exclusive: The New York Times has been more biased on the Ukraine crisis endlessly promoting State Department propaganda than when it published false Iraqi WMD stories last decade. Case in point: a story from Mariupol hailing the Azov battalion without noting its neo-Nazi fighters, writes Robert Parry.
By Robert Parry
In covering the Ukraine crisis, the New York Times continues its descent into becoming little more than a propaganda organ for the U.S. State Department and the Kiev regime, again refusing to acknowledge the role of neo-Nazi militias in the civil war against ethnic Russians in the east.
On Wednesday, the Times published a long article by Rick Lyman that presented the situation in the port city of Mariupol as if the advance by ethnic Russian rebels amounted to the arrival of barbarians at the gate while the inhabitants were being bravely defended by the forces of civilization. But then the article cites the key role in that defense played by the Azov battalion.
?f0ee9e
Though the article provides much color and detail and quotes an Azov leader prominently it leaves out one salient and well-known fact about the Azov battalion, that it is composed of neo-Nazis who display the Swastika, SS markings and other Nazi symbols.
But this inconvenient truth that neo-Nazis have been central to Kievs self-defense forces from last Februarys coup to the present would presumably disrupt the desired propaganda message. So the New York Times just ignores it and refers to Azov as simply a volunteer unit.
<edit>
So, why did the New York Times excise this well-documented history as it touted the Azov battalion to its readers on Wednesday? Isnt the role of neo-Nazis newsworthy? In other contexts, the Times is quick to note and condemn any sign of a Nazi resurgence in Europe. However, in Ukraine, where neo-Nazis, such as Andriy Parubiy served as the coup regimes first national security chief and neo-Nazi militias are at the center of regimes military operations, the Times goes silent on the subject.
It cant be because the Times is unaware of what has been extensively reported about the Azov battalion. The Times could even find a brief reference in one of its own prior stories. The only logical answer is that the Times is committed to a propaganda position on the Ukraine crisis and doesnt want the facts to get in the way of its preferred storyline.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)randome
(34,845 posts)[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)Actually it is a reaction to the NYT trying to sell the world on accepting Nazis.
Should make any peace loving person have a reaction. Funny, tho, some here don't seem to mind a bit Nazis are at war again.
snooper2
(30,151 posts)I missed you
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)It didn't work.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)that you are having to make a post in response to a poster that is the poster child of needing to look in the mirror.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)That is what we have to watch out for. It is a tactic that will be used in the upcoming elections against the Left, but from the Right, that is their MO of course, and sadly, from some now on the left.
I assume when I see such personal attacks that they are unable to refute the content they appear to want to distract from.
The left needs to be aware of these tactics, too often we ignore them or react as they intend for us to react, take the bait, go on the defensive. The Left needs to be on the offensive from now on.
We need to study these tactics and learn how to USE them to OUR advantage. Just imo of course!
Aerows
(39,961 posts)I'm aware of the personal attacks, too, and I don't want to engage in them. I guess I just assume that they don't know any better and/or reject the knowledge of doing so.
snooper2
(30,151 posts)hearts = love = power = respect me!
LOL
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)throughout his career on important facts, is now 'rabid' and 'foaming at the mouth'.
Actually I should not say say 'now'. The truth has always been described that way by those who don't want to acknowledge it.
I notice, as always in posts that attack the messenger, that you provided not a thing to disprove anything he is reporting on. And of course, he isn't the only one reporting the FACT that the NYT once again, is aiding and abetting the neocons.
Octafish
(55,745 posts)"Only the mob and the elite can be attracted by the momentum of totalitarianism itself. The masses have to be won by propaganda." Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
BTW: You never did answer why you prefer to mock me over wanting to fight fascism.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)I mock you over fighting fascism because you don't.
Posting on DU is not "fighting fascism".
You don't know what fighting fascism is and you dont know what journalism is so your attempts to attack me over that are meaningless.
Octafish
(55,745 posts)For the record: You attacked a journalist, Robert Parry, on this and many other threads on DU.
That makes you a partisan. If you can't see that, that's your problem.
Why does it bother you so much to mention a "persons DU name in subject" so much?
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)doing that either. Nor are you fighting fascism.
As for your nonsense about Parry, your opinion doesnt mean anything there.
Octafish
(55,745 posts)...yet you crap on another pundit to make a political point.
That can kill a career, as you can't find anything actually in error in Parry's reporting or wrong in his analysis.
That's about as kind an interpretation as I can make about what you post.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)Don't pretend that you are some superhero-like fascism fighter or claim you are extending some invitation to join you in doing so.
zappaman
(20,606 posts)He is "afraid of no man"!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4337158
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)Anyone saying otherwise just makes it seem as tho they support fascism.
They probably should stop doing that?
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)start being used to refer to that poster. He's "fighting fascism" and "taking on the BFEE".
The "BFEE" has no idea who he is and isn't affected by him in the least. I doubt he will ever in his life do anything that ever causes them to notice him.
polly7
(20,582 posts)look in a mirror.
He brings to this board truths so obvious to many of us but that you seem to find uncomfortable. Strange, that.
And, you have no idea what he does off this board, so what you 'doubt' is irrelevant.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)personally attacks another DUer to take a look at the attacker so we can determine whether there is any substance to the claims. We, eg, know the substance Octafish has provided on DU for many years. Many have learned quite a lot from him.
I'm not familiar with your work to any great extent to be honest. If you think being on DU and providing information and opinions and facts is not productive, what IS productive then? You are here also, so what are you providing that is of value?
Aerows
(39,961 posts)as usual, Sabrina 1.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)I don't believe you addressed the subject of the OP..
Fyi, Octafish is NOT the subject of the OP.
Parry is absolutely correct, AGAIN.
Just as he was the last time the NYT became the mouthpiece of the Neocons.
He is correct, they have conveniently left out pertinent information.
Thankfully people no longer look to the NYT for facts when it comes to our various wars.
And they have no one but themselves to blame for that.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)DUer, using that most disgusting of tactics, certainly not common among people on the Left, mockery, you open YOURSELF up to people wondering 'what does this person, who is attacking a popular, longtime provider of interesting content' do to make DU a worthwhile place to visit?
So what are YOU here for, what content do you provide that might draw readers to this Dem forum as Octafish has been doing for a long time?
And another thing I notice about personal attacks such as these, they never address the content of the material.
Is there something you disagree with in what Octafish has posted?
All I see is childish personal attacks, but I might have missed it, I don't seek out boring comments, sometimes I stumble on them as I have in this thread.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)other than snide commentary from that person, and they have the nerve to taunt Octafish and every DUer that they disagree with.
It's fine to disagree with people, but going out of your way to mock them is a different story.
polly7
(20,582 posts)Were you fighting anything then? Or did you sit on your azz and berate anyone else who did so?
snooper2
(30,151 posts)btrflykng9
(287 posts)political movements and philosophies are often formed by the authoritarian control of ideas and information, resisting that control is every bit a fight against fascism.
Response to Octafish (Reply #5)
bahrbearian This message was self-deleted by its author.
Octafish
(55,745 posts)Thanks for the heads-up, bahrbearian. Remember that guy who said Manchester UK was only for Muslims? The guy's practically a PNAC scribe. Coincidentally cough he's the same guy who claimed Robert Parry was wrong on the October Surprise story back in the mid-90s.
http://rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/Emerson_Steven
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)was, always will be. What people here respect him for is his professionalism, the work he does to provide links, to discuss, rather than attack, to educate rather than distract.
He is not only a 'journalist', he is a great one. And as such, it is true, he has his distractors, as do all those who question the lies we are constantly told.
2banon
(7,321 posts)sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)if it wasn't for people like Octafish. I came here BECAUSE of posters like him.
THEY are the ones who made this site what it is.
2banon
(7,321 posts)sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)Lol, intelligence, integrity and honesty are definitely qualities that are extremely attractive.
Nastiness and constant negativity, not so much!
2banon
(7,321 posts)Nahh.. just kidding. it shows you've got it going on...
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)Just kidding, but I've been here a while. I remember the first time someone gave me a heart, I was so incredibly touched and wondered who it was. Just one, and it made me feel so wonderful.
So here are some for you. I think you really deserve them!
Ramses
(721 posts)LMAO
Because I dont buy US propaganda, I guess that also makes me a "putin lover" here too. I cant believe the Reagan 80's Cold War propaganda being posted here on a daily basis. We should all hate Russia and commies and leftists. Its like Im in a wayback time machine reading this garbage over and over again.
2banon
(7,321 posts)daily fare here. freeking bizarre as it is sickening. one would have thought our culture would have evolved by now, instead a recycling of the same tiring old shite is trafficked here as if had a shred of credibility.
polly7
(20,582 posts)I bet he gave me one too.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)I have no doubt your hearts came from Putin also, Polly!
Did I ever tell you that I once received some flower bouquets from Saddam? He wasn't a big spender like Pootie Poot though!
polly7
(20,582 posts)And poor me, who was supposed to have his babies!, got zilch ....... squat .......... nada.
2banon
(7,321 posts)What a lovely bunch of hearts!
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)But you are welcome
2banon
(7,321 posts)polly7
(20,582 posts)Aerows
(39,961 posts)I can't imagine why someone would want to be so insulting toward Octafish.
polly7
(20,582 posts)maybe that's the problem for some. They very badly don't want to see it here.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)Octafish tells the painful truth, and it makes a few around here mad.
When telling the truth upsets you, you probably need to look in the mirror for a liar.
Nobody likes liars, no matter how silver tongued they might be, and no matter how over-inflated their ego is, either.
polly7
(20,582 posts)Aerows
(39,961 posts)Some of the best posters on DU are getting regularly shut down, and I'm not fond of it. Scootaloo got shut out for a month. You got shut out for a couple of weeks. People with strong opinions getting shut down makes DU suck.
polly7
(20,582 posts)me with their ugly labels or keep me quiet. I have things to say, and I'll say them.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)You rock, Polly
polly7
(20,582 posts)And I'm glad your post wasn't hidden ....... that was just a strange alert.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)stevenleser
(32,886 posts)You really ought to know the whole story before jumping into the middle of aomehong
Aerows
(39,961 posts)you mean calling bullshit when warranted, then yeah. He certainly hasn't been the only one calling bullshit, either. Several good DUers have done so, so you might want to rethink what it is you are trying to accomplish with your tirades.
I have absolutely no doubt that you are going to alert on this post, because if you can't distract, deny and deceive, you'll find another way to shut down the conversation. My real question is why do you WANT to do that, Steven? What do you get out of sacrificing your credibility to defend the indefensible? Because that is pretty much what you have done.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)is an embarrassment.
I'm not sure who you think you are, but you owe Octafish an apology.
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)ALERTER'S COMMENTS
Oh please. To pubically shame a poster for disagreeing and engaging in discussion is especially rude and insulting. This post is disruptive and intended to shut down discussion. Yeah, this is just flat out rude.
You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Thu Feb 12, 2015, 09:02 AM, and the Jury voted 0-7 to LEAVE IT.
Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I see no reason to hide this.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: You mean just like steven did to Octafish?
Stop alert stalking.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I only wish I could vote to hide steven's bullshit.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: This juror thinks it's a fair and civil response.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: you owe Octafish an apology
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I don't see where it is rude. Bit of a scold, perhaps, but there is no rule against that. LEAVE
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Karmadillo
(9,253 posts)Even the real stevenlesser knows that claiming Octafish knows nothing about journalism is nonsense.
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)Aerows
(39,961 posts)Aerows
(39,961 posts)Maybe someone did steal his login, because I can't imagine a rational stevenleser saying all of these things.
I hope you are right, because the stevenleser I have read posts from isn't like this.
2banon
(7,321 posts)it's almost embarrassing. What is it with FOX pundits? They actually believe the lies they spew on teevee. and here i thought it was all about the $$$$$.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)It's so bizarre.
2banon
(7,321 posts)sheeesh!
reddread
(6,896 posts)Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)stevenleser
(32,886 posts)Karmadillo
(9,253 posts)stevenleser
(32,886 posts)infiltrate militaries and militias if it's Ukraine. This is a common issue globally. Ever take a look at the militia groups here in the US?
Do those folks seem like progressives to you?
You don't actually care about extreme right wing infiltration of militias and military units.
JonLP24
(29,322 posts)US Contractor Greystone Denies Its 'Mercenaries' in Ukraine
<snip>
According to its website, parts of which do not appear to have been updated in years, Greystone began providing services in 2004 as an affiliate of what is now Xe Services. Xe was the name the controversial defense contractor Blackwater took on before it was sold to private investors, who changed its name yet again to Academi.
<snip>
Greystone founder Christopher Burgess, a former Navy SEAL who trained with Blackwater founder Erik Prince, told Mother Jones in a 2008 email interview that Greystone was formed as Blackwaters sister company, taking on international contracts where Blackwater would focus on U.S. government contracts. Greystone gets some of its "employees and independent contractors" by recruiting from foreign nations around the world as well, Burgess said then.
Like Blackwater, Greystone has the tools to provide turn-key security solutions, Burgess said in 2008. As an international provider, we try very hard to be sensitive to each unique environment and to create a solution that is appropriate. A critical factor is understanding the desires of foreign customers and working with them, and the tools we have, to create the best solution for them.
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/greystone-firm-accused-disguising-mercenaries-ukrainians/story?id=23243761
Academi is an American private military company, founded in 1997 by Erik Prince.[2][3] Formerly known as Blackwater,[4] the company was renamed Xe Services in 2009, and "Academi" in 2011.[5] The company was purchased in late 2010 by a group of private investors who changed the name to Academi and instituted a board of directors and new senior management. Prince retained the rights to the name Blackwater and has no affiliation with Academi. The company received widespread publicity in 2007, when a group of its employees killed 17 Iraqi civilians and injured 20 in Nisour Square, Baghdad.[6][7]
Academi continues to provide security services to the United States federal government on a contractual basis. The Obama administration contracted the group to provide services for the CIA for $250 million.[8] In 2013, Academi subsidiary International Development Solutions received an approximately $92 million contract for State Department security guards.[9]
In 2014, the company became a division of Constellis Holdings along with Triple Canopy and other security companies that were part of the Constellis Group as the result of an acquisition.[10][11]
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/greystone-firm-accused-disguising-mercenaries-ukrainians/story?id=23243761
It is difficult to find much verification on this since Academi denies they are there or that they even have ties to Blackwater which is false.
Academi is an American private military company, founded in 1997 by Erik Prince.[2][3] Formerly known as Blackwater,[4] the company was renamed Xe Services in 2009, and "Academi" in 2011.[5] The company was purchased in late 2010 by a group of private investors who changed the name to Academi and instituted a board of directors and new senior management. Prince retained the rights to the name Blackwater and has no affiliation with Academi. The company received widespread publicity in 2007, when a group of its employees killed 17 Iraqi civilians and injured 20 in Nisour Square, Baghdad.[6][7]
Academi continues to provide security services to the United States federal government on a contractual basis. The Obama administration contracted the group to provide services for the CIA for $250 million.[8] In 2013, Academi subsidiary International Development Solutions received an approximately $92 million contract for State Department security guards.[9]
In 2014, the company became a division of Constellis Holdings along with Triple Canopy and other security companies that were part of the Constellis Group as the result of an acquisition.[10][11]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academi
John Ashcroft is one of their board of directors. In any case Ukraine does have far right militias on their side such as the Right Sector, Donbass Batallion & zov Battalion -- clearly the far right has ties to the Ukrainian government.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)Paramilitary groups, contractors, militias tend to be extreme right wing.
So the question is, why the focus on Ukraines? I don't see you complaining on a daily basis about the militia groups in the US. I don't see you complaining about neo-Nazi's in Russia.
At some point, you are going to need to be honest and explain what your motivation really is here. IMHO there are only two for arguing against Ukraine.
1. Because Snowden.
2. Because in general you are a negative Nationalist as described by Orwell and the US is your antagonist.
It's obvious that you don't really care about far right wing paramilitary units. This is just an excuse to support Russia and be against the US.
JonLP24
(29,322 posts)I actually complain constantly about the human trafficking and slave labor abuses of US private defense contractors. I also mentioned them in Colombia (there are a lot of privatized militias in Columbia that happen to be fighting for the same side the US, France, UK, and Canada are on).
Really? Snowden? He is only one of the reasons to argue against the Ukrainian government? They are very clearly corrupt that raid the treasury, why would I need Snowden?
MFrohike
(1,980 posts)"If you don't argue against every instance of x, then all your arguments against x in a given situation are invalid."
One size fits all! Don't worry about particular circumstances, just be mindlessly consistent! Damn, man, that sounds like the philosophy of a WW1 general, not a thinking human being. That's just an unbelievably stupid, and dishonest, line of argument.
As for the specific situation under discussion, it's quite possible to be concerned with far right militias in Ukraine vs. far right militias in the US. Why? For starters, the ones in Ukraine are backed by the government, which is backed by the US. Except possibly on a local level, I don't know of any systematic program to aid right-wing militias in the US. In fact, I'm well aware of multiple federal and state agencies that consider that particular group of people to be both hostile and dangerous. Given that, I am stumped as to why you'd bring up militias in the US except to deflect the discussion from Ukraine.
As for why someone could be hesitant, or even opposed, to the current intervention in Ukraine, there are reasons that don't involve Mr. Snowden or your pointless namechecking of Mr. Orwell. For instance, a person might consider that Europe is in very bad shape. Does pushing a conflict between Europe and Russia help that situation? Does it help Germany, considered the strongest economy in the region, to largely cut off trade with one of its largest trading partners? Ultimately, what do you gain in Ukraine?
Anyway, unlike most on this board, I haven't picked a team on this issue. I think American involvement will be problematic (for us) at best and the potential gains minimal. I'm not worried about Putin rolling across Europe, as is so often implied on this board, because the old Red Army is dead. He doesn't have the manpower or the resources. He's a problem on his borders, at most. This pathetic imitation of Cold War forms on DU is ridiculous. I've seen the domino theory, now applied to Putin, trotted out daily by people I'm sure who would mock the same if discussed in the context of Vietnam. I've seen HUAC style tactics ("Are you now or have you ever been..." pushed by proponents of a Ukrainian intervention. That one makes me a bit sick. If you sound like Tricky Dick, you're clearly doing it wrong.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)for, has the issue in spades.
MFrohike
(1,980 posts)Do explain why it's wrong for an American citizen to be concerned about militias repeatedly described as neo-fascist which are backed by an American client state. If I'm to believe you, an American citizen has no right to question his or her own government's policy unless he or she questions every other government's policy. Is that your argument?
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)MFrohike
(1,980 posts)I'll quote you.
"And this last part above is so pertinent to you and others here who advocate against Ukraine on DU. The fact which is a true fact but impossible for you as a negative nationalist to accept is that Russia is extremely antisemitic, has NeoNazi's all over the place, Putin and his party are aligned with far right groups all over Europe and so any kind of attempt by folks on that side to accuse Ukraine of having those issues is laughable."
Using your logic, an American ally could commit genocide and nobody could criticize it because it'd be anti-American to do so. Bravo, sir. Even George Bush didn't have your balls.
2banon
(7,321 posts)polly7
(20,582 posts)L0oniX
(31,493 posts)Aerows
(39,961 posts)sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)against their own people. See Karamov of Uzbekistan eg.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)relevant to us. And we know that the Right Wing neocons in Ukraine, seen posing with McCain were promised US help, THAT is what makes THEM relevant to US.
If you have evidence that our tax dollars are paying for all these other right wing elements, then post it and you will just as much outrage.
I would have thought that this was pretty obvious frankly.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)See, when members of our government 'focus' on countries to the point of stating that 'we will support you', WE have a right to know, what exactly they are planning to do with our Tax Dollars.
Do you object to the American people's right to know when warmongers are acting on our behalf without our knowledge?
So WHY was John McCain, Nuland, Murphy et al so FOCUSED on Ukraine?
Why were they making promises to the would-be coup neo nazis that 'we' would support them? Did the President know about those promises?
Or, like that exposed plot between neocons, Netanyahu and his co-conspirators to undermine the president's policies of peaceful resolution with Iran, were the neocons doing the same thing in Ukr?
A lot of people want to know the answer to that question.
Karmadillo
(9,253 posts)stevenleser
(32,886 posts)or elsewhere.
But you can't of course, because you don't really care about that.
Karmadillo
(9,253 posts)can't, of course, because you don't really care about the torment of those children. You'd rather stuff your face full of chocolate laced with the misery of the exploited. What a guy.
The thread, if I'm not mistaken, is about the neo-nazis we're supporting in Ukraine. You could explain why you're so supportive of them, but I imagine you'll find it easier to try to distract us from the OP.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)right wing militia units in Ukraine.
I say your complaint about this is B.S. because you conveniently ignore it elsewhere, including Russia, whose side you have adopted here.
That's the issue. Your comparison is a non-sequitur.
Karmadillo
(9,253 posts)stevenleser
(32,886 posts)At some point, you are going to need to be honest and explain what your motivation really is here. IMHO there are only two for arguing against Ukraine.
1. Because Snowden.
2. Because in general you are a negative Nationalist as described by Orwell and the US is your antagonist.
------------------------------------------------------------------
You are a negative nationalist as described by Orwell, and the US is your antagonist. The fact that you acknowledge issues with the US is completely unsurprising. That's why you are against Ukraine, because Ukraine wants to ally themselves with the US. Where are your posts fighting against fascism in Russia?
http://orwell.ru/library/essays/nationalism/english/e_nat
.
.
.
By nationalism I mean first of all the habit of assuming that human beings can be classified like insects and that whole blocks of millions or tens of millions of people can be confidently labelled good or bad(1). But secondly and this is much more important I mean the habit of identifying oneself with a single nation or other unit, placing it beyond good and evil and recognising no other duty than that of advancing its interests. Nationalism is not to be confused with patriotism. Both words are normally used in so vague a way that any definition is liable to be challenged, but one must draw a distinction between them, since two different and even opposing ideas are involved. By patriotism I mean devotion to a particular place and a particular way of life, which one believes to be the best in the world but has no wish to force on other people. Patriotism is of its nature defensive, both militarily and culturally. Nationalism, on the other hand, is inseparable from the desire for power. The abiding purpose of every nationalist is to secure more power and more prestige, not for himself but for the nation or other unit in which he has chosen to sink his own individuality.
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.
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It is also worth emphasising once again that nationalist feeling can be purely negative. There are, for example, Trotskyists who have become simply enemies of the U.S.S.R. without developing a corresponding loyalty to any other unit. When one grasps the implications of this, the nature of what I mean by nationalism becomes a good deal clearer. A nationalist is one who thinks solely, or mainly, in terms of competitive prestige. He may be a positive or a negative nationalist that is, he may use his mental energy either in boosting or in denigrating but at any rate his thoughts always turn on victories, defeats, triumphs and humiliations. He sees history, especially contemporary history, as the endless rise and decline of great power units, and every event that happens seems to him a demonstration that his own side is on the upgrade and some hated rival is on the downgrade. But finally, it is important not to confuse nationalism with mere worship of success. The nationalist does not go on the principle of simply ganging up with the strongest side. On the contrary, having picked his side, he persuades himself that it is the strongest, and is able to stick to his belief even when the facts are overwhelmingly against him. Nationalism is power-hunger tempered by self-deception. Every nationalist is capable of the most flagrant dishonesty, but he is also since he is conscious of serving something bigger than himself unshakeably certain of being in the right.
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Negative Nationalism
(i) Anglophobia. Within the intelligentsia, a derisive and mildly hostile attitude towards Britain is more or less compulsory, but it is an unfaked emotion in many cases. During the war it was manifested in the defeatism of the intelligentsia, which persisted long after it had become clear that the Axis powers could not win. Many people were undisguisedly pleased when Singapore fell ore when the British were driven out of Greece, and there was a remarkable unwillingness to believe in good news, e.g. el Alamein, or the number of German planes shot down in the Battle of Britain. English left-wing intellectuals did not, of course, actually want the Germans or Japanese to win the war, but many of them could not help getting a certain kick out of seeing their own country humiliated, and wanted to feel that the final victory would be due to Russia, or perhaps America, and not to Britain. In foreign politics many intellectuals follow the principle that any faction backed by Britain must be in the wrong. As a result, enlightened opinion is quite largely a mirror-image of Conservative policy. Anglophobia is always liable to reversal, hence that fairly common spectacle, the pacifist of one war who is a bellicist in the next.
(ii) Anti-Semitism. There is little evidence about this at present, because the Nazi persecutions have made it necessary for any thinking person to side with the Jews against their oppressors. Anyone educated enough to have heard the word antisemitism claims as a matter of course to be free of it, and anti-Jewish remarks are carefully eliminated from all classes of literature. Actually antisemitism appears to be widespread, even among intellectuals, and the general conspiracy of silence probably helps exacerbate it. People of Left opinions are not immune to it, and their attitude is sometimes affected by the fact that Trotskyists and Anarchists tend to be Jews. But antisemitism comes more naturally to people of Conservative tendency, who suspect Jews of weakening national morale and diluting the national culture. Neo-Tories and political Catholics are always liable to succumb to antisemitism, at least intermittently.
(iii) Trotskyism. This word is used so loosely as to include Anarchists, democratic Socialists and even Liberals. I use it here to mean a doctrinaire Marxist whose main motive is hostility to the Stalin regime. Trotskyism can be better studied in obscure pamphlets or in papers like the Socialist Appeal than in the works of Trotsky himself, who was by no means a man of one idea. Although in some places, for instance in the United States, Trotskyism is able to attract a fairly large number of adherents and develop into an organised movement with a petty fuerher of its own, its inspiration is essentially negative. The Trotskyist is against Stalin just as the Communist is for him, and, like the majority of Communists, he wants not so much to alter the external world as to feel that the battle for prestige is going in his own favour. In each case there is the same obsessive fixation on a single subject, the same inability to form a genuinely rational opinion based on probabilities. The fact that Trotskyists are everywhere a persecuted minority, and that the accusation usually made against them, i. e. of collaborating with the Fascists, is obviously false, creates an impression that Trotskyism is intellectually and morally superior to Communism; but it is doubtful whether there is much difference. The most typical Trotskyists, in any case, are ex-Communists, and no one arrives at Trotskyism except via one of the left-wing movements. No Communist, unless tethered to his party by years of habit, is secure against a sudden lapse into Trotskyism. The opposite process does not seem to happen equally often, though there is no clear reason why it should not.
.
.
.
If one harbours anywhere in one's mind a nationalistic loyalty or hatred, certain facts, although in a sense known to be true, are inadmissible. Here are just a few examples. I list below five types of nationalist, and against each I append a fact which it is impossible for that type of nationalist to accept, even in his secret thoughts:
BRITISH TORY: Britain will come out of this war with reduced power and prestige.
COMMUNIST: If she had not been aided by Britain and America, Russia would have been defeated by Germany.
IRISH NATIONALIST: Eire can only remain independent because of British protection.
TROTSKYIST: The Stalin regime is accepted by the Russian masses.
PACIFIST: Those who abjure violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.
All of these facts are grossly obvious if one's emotions do not happen to be involved: but to the kind of person named in each case they are also intolerable, and so they have to be denied, and false theories constructed upon their denial.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
And this last part above is so pertinent to you and others here who advocate against Ukraine on DU. The fact which is a true fact but impossible for you as a negative nationalist to accept is that Russia is extremely antisemitic, has NeoNazi's all over the place, Putin and his party are aligned with far right groups all over Europe and so any kind of attempt by folks on that side to accuse Ukraine of having those issues is laughable.
Karmadillo
(9,253 posts)Last edited Thu Feb 12, 2015, 11:32 AM - Edit history (1)
Why are you so unconcerned about fascism and the misery it inflicts when it serves neocon purposes? Maybe Carl Jung can help you. I'm sure you're somewhat of a decent guy and in some unconscious way, you're shamed by your embrace of the violence in Ukraine. You probably know instinctively that support for neo-nazis is wrong, even though consciously you've created an elaborate self-justification for your position. And so that shame, kept from your consciousness, gets projected on to posters here at DU who oppose the fascism you embrace. That seems a reasonable explanation for why you keep telling everyone on the board opposed to fascism in Ukraine that they really support fascism everywhere else but Ukraine (which, let's be honest, makes absolutely no sense). So here's Jung on how you're projecting this suppressed material on to others and how you can escape the process:
<edit>
Carl Jung says that our shadow is closely related to our projections. Because we are unable to see the shadowy aspect of our own personality, we project them onto other people. Jung explains:
While some traits peculiar to the shadow can be recognized without too much difficulty as ones own personal qualities, in this case both insight and good will are unavailing because the cause of emotion appears to lie, beyond all possibility of doubt, in other person. No matter how obvious it may be to the neutral observer that it is a matter of projections, there is little hope that the subject will perceive this himself. He must be convinced that he throws a very long shadow before he is willing withdraw his emotionally-toned projections from their object
As we know, it is not the conscious subject but unconscious which does the projecting. (CW 9ii, para. 16- 17)
The problem with our projections is that they isolate us from our environment and from other human beings. Our projections block the formation of deep relationship with the people in our lives. If we are busy seeing our own projections how can we see others as they truly are?
The effect of projection to isolate the subject from his environment, since instead of real relation to it there is now only an illusory one. Projection changes the world into the replica of ones own unknown face The more projections are thrust in between the subject and the environment, the harder it is for the ego to see through its illusions (CW 9ii, para. 17)
According to Jung, each of us must come to terms with the ways we have projected parts of our personality on the world. It is only in doing so that we can reclaim the wholeness of our personality.
It is often tragic to see how blatantly a man bungles his own life and the lives of others yet remains totally incapable of seeing how much the whole tragedy originates in himself, and how he continually feeds it and keeps it going. Not consciously, course for consciously he is engaged in bewailing and cursing a faithless world that recedes further and further into the distance. Rather, it is an unconscious factor which spins the illusions that veil his world. And what is being spun is a cocoon, which in the end will completely envelop him. (CW 9ii, para. 18)
So maybe if you would stop embracing fascism in Ukraine and joining in the neo-con push for more and more regime change and more and more chaos and more and more bloodshed, you'd be able to stop projecting the shamefulness of your position on to the rest of us and enter into discussions at DU without such irrational hostility.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)that the only person incapable of seeing your flawed logic here ... is you.
polly7
(20,582 posts)sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)neo nazis in Ukraine. If you haven't posted a thread on right wing militias here or anywhere else, then, by your logic, you don't care about those issues.
The OP obviously cares that the US may be funding such people. Do you agree with him/her? SHOULD the US be funding Ukraine's right wing, neo Nazi militias?
polly7
(20,582 posts)to these brutes. Of course it's fucking relevant in Ukraine. Why try to side-step the question and switch the conversation to Russia???
I just love it when those who support coups, austerity and suffering for others using these fascists defend it, very telling .....
Aerows
(39,961 posts)I just love it when people pretend to detest fascism on one hand while cheering it with the other.
I'm pretty sure that half the people in this thread arguing for fascism couldn't accurately identify what fascism actually is, and don't realize that's what they are arguing for.
"Because, Reasons" seems to be the answer.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)supporting these extremists:
U.S. Senator John McCain, right, meets Ukrainian opposition leaders Arseniy Yatsenyuk, left, and Oleh Tyahnybok in Kiev, Ukraine, Saturday, Dec. 14, 2013.
Oleh Tyahnaybok is the leader of the neo nazi party, Svoboda.
[link: http://www.businessinsider.com/john-mccain-meets-oleh-tyahnybok-in-ukraine-2013-12#ixzz3RVTRXud1|John McCain Went To Ukraine And Stood On Stage With A Man Accused Of Being An Anti-Semitic Neo-Nazi]
So much on this everywhere, except in the NYT it seems. One more, but there is plenty of info about the Kiev Coup Govt's embrace of these neo-nazis. McCain and Nuland seem right at home with them, but what else could we expect from a warmonger and a neocon?
Ukraine Ethnic Purity Extremists [Neo Nazis threaten Russians, Jews, non-whites]
Nuland with the neo nazi leader
Nice friends the neocons have. But when you're plotting a coup, I guess you take what you can get, or something.
And that is 'our guy Yatze' in the photo also. That's what Nuland called him. And what a coincidence, that's what she got, her guy, after the coup.
polly7
(20,582 posts)Last edited Thu Feb 12, 2015, 05:56 AM - Edit history (1)
It's been proven on this board over and over.
Seeing No Neo-Nazi Militias in Ukraine
September 8, 2014
The fighting for Donetsk has taken on a lethal pattern: The regular army bombards separatist positions from afar, followed by chaotic, violent assaults by some of the half-dozen or so paramilitary groups surrounding Donetsk who are willing to plunge into urban combat, the Times reported.
Officials in Kiev say the militias and the army coordinate their actions, but the militias, which count about 7,000 fighters, are angry and, at times, uncontrollable. One known as Azov, which took over the village of Marinka, flies a neo-Nazi symbol resembling a Swastika as its flag. [See Consortiumnews.coms NYT Discovers Ukraines Neo-Nazis at War.]
The conservative London Telegraph offered more details about the Azov battalion in an article by correspondent Tom Parfitt, who wrote: Kievs use of volunteer paramilitaries to stamp out the Russian-backed Donetsk and Luhansk peoples republics should send a shiver down Europes spine.
And much more: https://consortiumnews.com/2014/09/08/seeing-no-neo-nazi-militias-in-ukraine/
The bias is so strong that the mainstream media has largely ignored the remarkable story of the Kiev regime willfully dispatching Nazi storm troopers to kill ethnic Russians in the east, something that hasnt happened in Europe since World War II.
For Western news organizations that are quick to note the slightest uptick in neo-Nazism in Europe, there has been a willful blindness to Kievs premeditated use of what amount to Nazi death squads undertaking house-to-house killings in eastern Ukraine. [See Consortiumnews.coms Seeing No Neo-Nazi Militias in Ukraine.]
The Russian government has repeatedly protested these death-squad operations and other crimes committed by the Kiev regime, but the U.S. mainstream media is so in the tank for the western Ukrainians that it has suppressed this aspect of the crisis, typically burying references to the neo-Nazi militias at the end of stories or dismissing these accounts as Russian propaganda.
https://consortiumnews.com/2015/02/06/nuclear-war-and-clashing-ukraine-narratives/
The Azov battalion uses the neo-Nazi Wolfsangel (Wolf''s Hook) symbol on its banner (Tom Parfitt)
Asked about his Nazi sympathies, he said: After the First World World War, Germany was a total mess and Hitler rebuilt it: he built houses and roads, put in telephone lines, and created jobs. I respect that. Homosexuality is a mental illness and the scale of the Holocaust is a big question, he added.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/11025137/Ukraine-crisis-the-neo-Nazi-brigade-fighting-pro-Russian-separatists.html
Following the downing of the Malaysia Airlines plane MH17 in East Ukraine, before an investigation has been even begun, and although it is equally likely that the Ukrainian Government could have possibly carried out the act, Timothy Garton Ash already had all the answers. In his article for the New York Times titled "Protecting Russians in Ukraine Has Fatal Consequences", Ash traced the roots of the current crisis in Ukraine to a speech made by Vladimir Putin while serving as a deputy mayor of St. Petersburg in 1994. Ash explains that Putin argued then that the collapse of the USSR left 25 million Russians outside the Russian Federation without protection and that therefore this speech was an indication that Putin will intervene in neighboring countries to protect Russians there, when faced in danger. From this it follows, according to Ash, that it is Putins alleged actions to aid rebels in East Ukraine that are responsible for the toppling of the jet.
http://original.antiwar.com/joshua_tartakovsky/2014/08/15/mass-killing-in-east-ukraine-and-the-failure-of-liberal-intellectuals/
"Subhumans"! - when have we heard that before. I lost family members fighting the last freak that considered millions of human beings subhumans, one tortured and murdered in one of his camps at the very start of the war, just a kid, really. That you defend fascists and people like this makes me absolutely SICK. And 'nuked'? What the fuck kind of animal calls for that? Ukrainian CITIZENS who don't recognize an illegally coup-sponsored gov't and don't wish to live under austerity? People who defend this, why? I believe I know, and it's beyond ugly. You might want to reconsider all your insults against people just trying to get at the real truth, because you're failing miserably at anything resembling reality.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024613019
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6202547
(And btw .... why was it necessary to install a new Finance Minister, a former U.S. diplomat who took Ukrainian citizenship in December 2014 "who had been in charge of a U.S.-taxpayer-financed $150 million Ukrainian investment fund which involved substantial insider dealings?"
https://consortiumnews.com/2015/02/06/nuclear-war-and-clashing-ukraine-narratives/
Aerows
(39,961 posts)That's a useful tactic.
The fact that most recognize it as a tactic, however, lessens the effectiveness.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)The neocons are trying to undermine this President's foreign policy. All the usual suspects, are helping them, again.
Anyone remember Judith Miller, the Rendon Group?
I bet not only does Parry remember, most of US remember.
Obama needs Russia along with the four other nations who are helping him to avoid a neocon war with Iran.
It's interesting how the two are tied, the push for conflict with Russia, while Russia is helping the President foil the neocons dream of War with Iran.
But, it's easy to fall for the propaganda I suppose, if you don't see the whole picture.
Parry has always been able to do that. He was slammed before for his attacks on the NYT and all the other so-called 'news' media during Iraq.
I doubt he cares much. He tells the truth and as has always been the case, the truth can be inconvenient, and those who find it so, tend to attack the messenger. THAT became old after the messengers were proven to be right over the past decade. It just isn't working this time.
Octafish
(55,745 posts)Seeing photos of our "allies" might disturb people who do remember why "money trumps peace."
2banon
(7,321 posts)Thank you for posting, I am in complete agreement with Robert Parry's Spot On analysis. It's not as if we haven't seen this before the Old Gray Mare.
After all, promulgating Lies and More Lies on behalf of the State Dept seems to be their bailiwick.
How soon so many forget the atrocious trafficking of TURD LADEN LIES wrt the run up on the Invasion of Iraq.
JonLP24
(29,322 posts)<snip>
Olexander Turchynov
Interim president
The deputy leader of Fatherland, Olexander Turchynov maintains very close ties with Yulia Tymoshenko, the controversial former prime minister who was jailed under the old regime. A 50-year-old from Dnipropetrovsk, many see his appointment as a move paving the way back to the political top spot for the recently released one-time gas-sector oligarch, Tymoshenko.
Turchynov had a prominent role in the Euromaidan protests and was placed under investigation by the security services of the former president Viktor Yanukovych for his involvement in organising the protesters' "self-defence units".
<snip>
Turchynov has a long political career and has previously held positions including head of Ukraine's domestic security service [SBU], acting prime minister and deputy prime minister. WikiLeaks documents suggest that during his role as security service chief in 2005 he destroyed documents that allegedly implicated Tymoshenko as having links to organised crime - allegations she has always denied.
<snip>
Oleksandr Sych
Deputy prime minister
Sych, 49, is a member of the far-right nationalist Svoboda (Freedom) party. He is an anti-abortion activist and once publicly suggested that women should "lead the kind of lifestyle to avoid the risk of rape, including refraining from drinking alcohol and being in controversial company". He has attracted criticism from women's and human rights groups.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/04/who-governing-ukraine-olexander-turchynov
MineralMan
(146,325 posts)This looks like Russian propaganda to me. I'm weary of unsupported claims that originate in Moscow, frankly.
Karmadillo
(9,253 posts)JonLP24
(29,322 posts)There is a strong far right nationalist movement and many of them are in the current government.
Svoboda (political party)
The All-Ukrainian Union "Svoboda" (Ukrainian: Всеукраїнське обєднання «Свобода», Vseukrayinske obyednannia "Svoboda" , translated as Freedom, is a Ukrainian nationalist political party.[2] The party won in the late October 2014 Ukrainian parliamentary election 6 seats; losing 30 seats of the 37 seats (its first seats in the Ukrainian Parliament[8]) it had won in the 2012 parliamentary election.[nb 1][11][12] From 27 February 2014 till 12 November 2014 three members of the party held positions in Ukraine's government.[13]
The party was founded in 1991 as the Social-National Party of Ukraine (Ukrainian: Соціал-національна партія України and acts as a populist proponent of nationalism and anti-communism. It is positioned on the right of the Ukrainian political spectrum,[2][14][15][16] and some scholars classify them as far right.[4][17][18][19] Scholars and journalists disagree over Svoboda's politics, some stating members of Svoboda are fascistic or anti-semitic,[20][21][22][23][24][25][26] while other scholars and media, as well as Svoboda itself, state that its politics are nationalist, but not fascistic or antisemitic.[27][28][29][30][31][32]
<snip>
Svoboda has been described as an anti-Semitic and sometimes a Neo-Nazi party by some journalists,[133][139][155] organizations that monitor hate speech,[156] Jewish organizations,[157][158] and political opponents.[56]
Svoboda advisor Yuriy Mykhalchyshyn started a blog called "Joseph Goebbels Political Research Centre" in 2005, later changing "Joseph Goebbels" to "Ernst Jünger."[2] Mykhalchyshyn wrote a book in 2010 citing works by Nazi theorists Ernst Röhm, Gregor Strasser and Goebbels.[54][139][159] Elsewhere Mykhalchyshyn referred to the Holocaust as a "period of Light in history".[160]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svoboda_%28political_party%29#Allegations_of_neo-nazism_and_political_extremism`
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)McCain, did they report on his visit with the leader of the Neo Nazi party? Lol, poor McCain, that photo pretty much wiped out whatever credibility he had. And he POSED for it!
That was when he was over there backing the Coup. Promising 'our help'. I always wondered if Obama was informed of his antics for the neocons before he went. I doubt it.
Netanyahu, McCain, Dermer, Nuland (who was caught on tape for the world to hear, plotting the coup btw and who 'we' would install afterwards) and the neocons who are still around, attempting to UNDERMINE Obama's Foreign Policies, are desperately trying to get the US involved in yet another WAR over there.
But the exposure of the Netanyahu plot with his co-conspirators, Dermer and the puppet, Boehner, has cast a whole new light on their efforts to undermine this President's foreign policies which, in case no one noticed, involve a partnership with Russia, China, the UK, Germany and France to resolve the Iran issue peacefully.
The NYT, as it did during the Iraq War frenzy, appears to be neglecting to report on certain pertinent facts.
I doubt anyone who was around during that period will ever forget the Judith Miller affair and how the NYT lost its credibility by allowing her to publish the neocon lies.
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)it itself an "unsupported claim."
Pot, meet kettle.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)if I've ever read one.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)You are a great DUer.
That said, I am wary of knee-jerk reactions to foreign affairs. I understand it, but I strive to be a little more level-headed about it.
malaise
(269,157 posts)M$Greedia lies all the time - it's all about the agenda
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)Fred
elias49
(4,259 posts)Sic
Octafish
(55,745 posts)Same for his analysis. His opinion is based on logic.
And the main point missed by all the attacks on Parry in this thread:
The New York Times is missing the connection between the NAZIs and the Ukraine military and the government in Kiev.
That important connection also is missed from the reporting that follows the paper's lead.
stupidicus
(2,570 posts)will overlook that little detail because the picture he painted here -- that is really "liberal" media-wide -- obviously soils the white hat our leaders are trying to wear on the matter.
The only surprise is the lack of a "Putin-lover/apologist" charge that such efforts usually get.
You aren't one of those, are ya? lol
grasswire
(50,130 posts)I believe that's a fig leaf. I believe it's something more sinister than that.
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)grasswire
(50,130 posts)And perhaps, for some, that's it.
But Obama is being used as a deflection in order to protect the MIC, the surveillance state, TPTB. And that means some of the people posting here and raising that Obama shield are, in fact, agitators. Paid agitators. Of the worst kind. And it explains why the very same people show up thread after thread after thread to pretend to defend Obama.
It's a very sick and twisted ploy.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)I'm not sure how crafty they think they are, but laying rotten eggs seems to be their specialty. It's only a matter of time before the rotten eggs start stinking.
grasswire
(50,130 posts)To what end?
No minds are changed here at DU by those who are using Obama as a fig leaf to deflect attention from the corporate-surveillance-imperial-militaristic state.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)But more likely a blatant use of propaganda to deceive, distract, divide and disarm.
On message boards, derail takes the place of disarm, but it's the same logic. Derail any discussion that could cast the state in a bad light, distract by bringing in a bunch of crap, deceive if you think you can get away with it, and create dissension where you can.
It's a pity that they are so obvious in what they are doing, we might not have caught on this early.
polly7
(20,582 posts)Obama means nothing to the moves being made.
but a convenient way to conflate racism or whatever dark motivations can be tied
to people offended by imperial aggression and political double dealing.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)you nailed it. +?
Aerows
(39,961 posts)As though there is no other thinking other than whistleblowers = bad.
Weird, don't you think?
Ramses
(721 posts)Their goal is supporting the MIC, the corrupt judicial system and the rigged electronic voting system, as well as always always supporting disaster capitalism. They they can do some hippie punching is just a fringe benefit. And you are correct. It is much more sinister
grasswire
(50,130 posts)who would want to support the MIC and the corrupt judicial system and the rigged voting, and disaster capitalism?
Hmmmm. One surname hits all those points.
They have diversified in their strategies. The mission remains the same.
stupidicus
(2,570 posts)for some anyway.
Imo, anyone who attacks the integrity and/or credibility of Parry on such matters is either dishonest or a dumbass unworthy of much beyond that designation.
Ramses
(721 posts)No Nazi's in Kiev's government, nope.
George II
(67,782 posts)....does that mean that they are Confederate soldiers?
elias49
(4,259 posts)which only makes them idiots.
JonLP24
(29,322 posts)and the other side mostly isn't (who also weren't allowed to vote in some places but those who did turnout was very low in the East)
I was in the military and we were told we aren't allowed to display any flag so I'm not aware of 1 single case though I don't doubt there are. They're just clearly breaking regulations.
Fuddnik
(8,846 posts)Back in 1969 or '70. My Navy room-mate decorated our room with a Confederate flag, and was told immediately, to take it down. The ONLY flag he could display was the US flag.
He took it down. He wasn't trying to make a statement, just thought it was an innocent decoration.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)Because the one unit in question in Ukraine is a militia type organization.
If you look at the paramilitary organizations in most countries, they tend to be far right crazies or whatever passes for it in the particular country.
George II
(67,782 posts)Judi Lynn
(160,601 posts)Oilwellian
(12,647 posts)I posted an OP yesterday after reading several congressional Dems were encouraging Obama to send arms to Ukraine's military, which includes neo-nazi militias.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026207125#post11
It shouldn't surprise us there are now neo-nazi militias on the border of Russia.
Someone thinks he won the presidency and conducts his own foreign policy. Sound familiar?
John McCain stands with Neo-Nazi leader and Ukrainian politician Oleh Tyahnybok
ND-Dem
(4,571 posts)Purveyor
(29,876 posts)attention as I knew they would.
Pooka Fey
(3,496 posts)NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)Parry's opinion on Ukraine is as utterly worthless as the NYT he rails against.
Fuck him.
grasswire
(50,130 posts)reddread
(6,896 posts)NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)Because the only people who could find Parry's writing despicable must be Nazis!
So cute
reddread
(6,896 posts)but stranger bedfellows abound
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)are in bed with Ukrainian Neo-Nazis!
How adorable
reddread
(6,896 posts)lets not put our tax dollars there.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)And I still find Parry's reporting abhorrent.
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)Show how what Parry is reporting is wrong. Back up your assertions with a link or two.
Before you do, go and read this: https://bookofbadarguments.com/
Specifically, page 42.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)The man parrots whatever the Kremlin line is that day (one time, didn't even bother to choose a different graphic from the one RT used). His "reporting" on MH-17 was utterly laughable, and stank of the same ridiculous anonymous sourcing and physics-defying nonsense the NYT was guilty of in the lead up to Iraq.
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)Refer to https://bookofbadarguments.com/
Page 14 "Appeal to Irrelevant Authority" -
"An argument becomes fallacious when the appeal is to an authority who is not an expert on the issue at hand. A similar appeal worth noting is the appeal to vague authority, where an idea is attributed to a vague collective. For example, Professors in Germany showed such and such to be true."
Page 32 "Guilt by Association" -
"Guilt by association is discrediting an argument for proposing an idea that is shared by some socially demonized individual or group. For example, My opponent is calling for a healthcare system that would resemble that of socialist countries. Clearly, that would be unacceptable. Whether or not the proposed healthcare system resembles that of socialist countries has no bearing whatsoever on whether it is good or bad; it is a complete non sequitur."
Page 44 "Circular Reasoning (aka Begging the Question)" -
"Circular reasoning is one of four types of arguments known as begging the question, [Damer] where one implicitly or explicitly assumes the conclusion in one or more of the premisses. In circular reasoning, a conclusion is either blatantly used as a premiss, or more often, it is reworded to appear as though it is a different proposition when in fact it is not. For example, You're utterly wrong because you're not making any sense. Here, the two propositions are one and the same since being wrong and not making any sense, in this context, mean the same thing. The argument is simply stating, Because of x therefore x, which is meaningless."
Maybe you should address this in a thread about the MH-17 incident. We're discussing Neo Nazis in the Ukraine in this one.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)in the morning.
Especially when it decimates a bad argument
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)Parry wrote something that casts a bad light on the Obama Administration. Period. That makes it false, by definition.
#BOGLogic
Aerows
(39,961 posts)I'm beginning to think there is something deeper here.
I just can't believe the Tiger Beat fan club are that ardent after 6 years. The fanatical defense of every single thing the CIA, the FBI and the NSA do is a tad weird. It's nearly psychotic with the fervency in which it is employed.
Food for thought, and think about those that lurk in threads that concern those topics.
that's the conclusion I'm reaching.
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)The intensity of the vitriol leveled at the messengers - Parry, Greenwald, Manning, Assange - seems much greater than expected, or reasonable.
The simplest explanation is that it's theater.
jakeXT
(10,575 posts)Oilwellian
(12,647 posts)Do my eyes deceive me? Does that thread show one of America's propaganda mills, attack another corporate owned Pravda, with a touch of truth? Is the worm turning for America's propaganda mills with zero credibility and shitty ratings?
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)to refute Washington propaganda...
Kinda counter-productive, innit? That Parry gets so myopic crafting his anti-Washington message that he can't tell which way is up anymore?
Aerows
(39,961 posts)polly7
(20,582 posts)But apparently Parry is part of a conspiracy theory now - http://www.democraticunderground.com/1016114134
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)butt hurt ensues.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)butt hurt due to measles when herd immunity and non stupid parents could have prevented it.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)again. They are doing the same thing regarding Ukraine.
Neocons have been active in Kiev for quite some time, posing with neo-nazis for photo ops before the coup.
It is shameful that this country has no real news media anymore.
You would think that after their huge embarrassment after they were exposed (Judith Miller eg) as aiding and abetting the Bush/Cheney lies and propaganda, they would try to avoid doing so again.
I see few here slamming the messenger have addressed the FACTS stated by Parry.
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)They don't like what Parry writes, and lack a reasonable counter-argument, so they disparage his character and hurl invectives.
Childish, really. If DU were half the place it used to be, we'd take a flamethrower to those types of posts.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)Look at the thread. Most think it's childish horse manure.
There are only a handful of folks that are hurling invective (and they are, indeed) and they are advertising themselves as such.
Heck, I wish more would present themselves so obviously so we know who to ignore.
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)to frame an argument.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)obvious, HE hasn't changed, still reports on facts as he always did. But something has changed. Doesn't take a lot of imagination to figure that one out.
polly7
(20,582 posts)For a respected journalist known to have based everything he wrote on investigating facts to suddenly turn all Fauxy and allow himself to be led by the nose posting what some have called here meaningless gibberish, doesn't make one bit of sense. You're right, it doesn't take a lot of imagination to figure out why they're doing it. Check how many threads on Ukraine have been shut down here - by many journalists and reporters, since it all began. Some are so afraid of the truth, it boggles the mind.
Octafish
(55,745 posts)During his nearly decade long run as America's intelligence chief from January 1953 to November 1961, Allen Dulles turned the CIA into the most lethal and most secretive agency in Washington. He recruited bright, young, ambitious men from Ivy League backgrounds and he turned them loose on the world. They were "Mad Men" with a "License to Kill."
President Eisenhower gave Dulles and his killing machine a long leash, because he thought that by allowing the CIA to engage in covert proxy wars in the Third World, he was avoiding a nuclear confrontation with the Soviet Union. But, this cold war calculation inflicted severe collateral damage upon the developing world.
Leaders and political movements that could have lifted their nations out of poverty and suffering were cut down in their prime. Leaders like Patrice Lumumba, the young, charismatic nationalist in the former Belgian Congo.
Lumumba's efforts to lift his people out of the near-slavery imposed on them by their Belgian colonial masters elicited the wrath of U.S. and European mining conglomerates. And, yes, these mining giants were, indeed, represented by the Dulles law firm. Lumumba was inevitably portrayed by the CIA and the agency's assets in the media in the United States and Europe as a reckless communist and he was targeted for elimination.
[font color="red"]By the way, i'm speaking here of media assets like the New York Times correspondent in the Congo who covered the sad end of Patrice Lumumba, a man named Paul Hoffmann, who's a familiar byline to many of us who read New York Times foreign coverage for many years. Paul Hoffman was an ex-NAZI who had served U.S. intelligence since (the end of) World War II. This is the man the New York Times sent to cover Patrice Lumumba in his final days.[/font color]
The CIA also sent its Doctor of Death, Sydney Gottlieb, to the Congo with a tube of toxic toothpaste. When this poison plot didn't work, the agency brought in contract killers from Europe.
Finally, in one of the CIA's first cases of what would become known as extraordinary rendition, Lumumba was captured with the CIA's help and handed over to his mortal political enemies, a gang of killers that included CIA mercenaries.
But, the CIA continues to this day to deny any responsibility -- any direct responsibility for Patrice Lumumba's death. The agency is directly implicated in his savage torture and murder. Lumumba's assassination would lead to decades of dictatorship and social collapse and further misery in the Congo.
It's important to know the timing of Lumumba's murder: January 17, 1961 -- just three days before the inauguration of President Kennedy.
OP from 2013: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024105197#post113
Most Americans never heard NYT Judy Miller was emailing with Dr. David Kelly on the day he "suicided."
grasswire
(50,130 posts)Aerows
(39,961 posts)You bring a great deal of knowledge to DU, and attempts to disparage your character are not brooked by me.
I think most of DU is grateful for your posts and research.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)A Nazi, the more you learn the more you wonder when there ever be some justice for the victims of all these crimes.
I keep hoping we are going through a very bad period in our history as other nations did. And that we are better than they were and will not allow it to continue much longer.
Imagine if Lumumba had lived? How different that country might be from the tragic, horrible place it is.
And why were always on the wrong side, always supporting Dictators, involved in coups that took down good, democratic leaders?
Aerows
(39,961 posts)Don't want it to sink just yet!
polly7
(20,582 posts)Yorktown
(2,884 posts)They are mostly an echo of the distant past. Namely: the Soviets created a massive famine (the Holomodor) by forcibly requisitioning all grains, including the seeds for the next harvest. 10 million died.
The Ukrainian nationalists end 1940 and early 1941 tried to associate with Hitler to break free from the Soviets they hated. Double bad move: bad morally, and Hitler imprisoned them as soon as Fall 1941 anyway. But one of their leaders (Stepan Bandera) retains the aura of a bad boy Joan of Arc, the guy who stood up to the Russians.
So a good deal of the nazi paraphernalia in Ukraine is a kind of folk worship of the nationalists of yesteryear. But it's true Ukraine also has its share of skinheads who like nazi symbols like any European far right movement does.