The Real Problem With Bread (It's Probably Not Gluten)

[KamaAina]

http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2015/02/bread-gluten-rising-yeast-health-problem

Considering that you can now find gluten-free everything, from Bisquick to bagels, it seems remarkable that our national obsession with the wheat protein that gives bread its elasticity is only about a decade old. Doctors have long known about a relatively rare condition called celiac disease, in which gluten damages the small intestine. But in recent years, best-selling books like Wheat Belly and Grain Brain have popularized the notion that gluten is the hidden culprit behind a host of hard-to-diagnose health problems, from indigestion to fatigue. Once you excise bread and other wheat products from your diet, the books claim, you'll be on the path to everything from top mental performance to a svelte figure....

Wheat Belly's author, cardiologist William Davis, claims that modern agricultural breeding has changed the nature of gluten, turning it toxic. He argues that wheat varieties developed in the 1960s and '70s introduced a novel protein called gliadin that has led to all manner of chronic problems, including obesity and diabetes. Yet Davis' claims have been roundly criticized by grain scientists. For that matter, there's no scientific consensus on how prevalent gluten sensitivity is, what triggers it, or even if it exists at all....

Even so, Jones doesn't buy the notion that the modern breeding he shuns is causing bad reactions to bread. "It's not wheat itself," he says, pointing to a 2013 study by the US Department of Agriculture that found "no evidence" of increasing levels of gluten in wheat over the decades. Rather, Jones believes that the true problem with bread is how we make it. In commercial bakeries, rising time has been winnowed from hours or even days down to mere minutes, thanks to fast-acting yeasts and additives. By contrast, the team in Jones' laboratory, located in a rural stretch along Puget Sound, lets dough rise for as long as 12 hours—and they've found that the longer it rises, the less potent the gluten that remains in the finished bread....

Jones' conjecture—that modern baking, not modern breeding, is responsible for the mysterious rise in gluten-related troubles—has not been proved correct. But then again, neither has any other explanation. Jones plans to continue his research, but in the meantime, with a test population of one, I conducted my own experiments with Jones' method. I had drifted away from bread in recent years; it made me feel uncomfortably full. But when I made slow-fermented whole-wheat bread with a sourdough starter from Jones' lab, I felt great—as I do when I eat loaves made by the increasing number of bakeries that use traditional methods and shun additives. No offense, but that sure beats the gluten-free menu.

[stage left]

1. K&R

Very interesting! Thanks.

[Dont call me Shirley]

2. And glyphosate...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026239076

[Major Nikon]

9. Creative speculation

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026239076#post12

"Dr." Stephanie Seneff has her doctorate in computer science. Might as well get your colonoscopy done by Geek Squad.
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2012/11/20/dumpster-diving-in-the-vaers-database-again/

[Dont call me Shirley]

13. Eating poison is not safe, no matter how one tries to deny that Truth. Glyphosate is poison.

[Major Nikon]

32. That's an utterly meaningless assertion using a word that has little scientific value

Caffeine is also "poison" along with literally thousands of other compounds that people can and do ingest safely on a daily basis. Dihydrogen Oxide can also be "poison" under the right circumstances and I'm willing to bet you've ingested quite a bit of it yesterday, today, and you almost certainly will again tomorrow.

None of this is particularly relevant to the quackery contained in your link.

[Dont call me Shirley]

36. This kind of poison...

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=&imgrefurl=http://www.aliexpress.com/promotion/promotion_chemical-warning-signs-promotion.html&h=480&w=640&tbnid=5L1aDDJa5xRq_M:&zoom=1&docid=PBYySecDAE_oEM&hl=en-US&ei=3BnlVJTQOZCoogTRzoHwBA&tbm=isch&ved=0CEEQMygZMBk

Like it says on the Round Up can

[Major Nikon]

47. Obviously you've never read a Round Up "can"

This is what it actually says:

http://www.monsantoito.com/docs/RoundupProConcentrate_Label.pdf

Note the word Caution. There's three words used on labels to designate toxicity or "poison" to the layman, which are in order... Caution, Warning, and Danger, with Caution being the least toxic or "poisonous" and Danger being the most toxic.

Nicotine Sulfate is a pesticide once commonly used by the organic industry and still sold and used by home gardeners which carries the far more toxic or "poison" label, Danger.



Lime sulfur also carries a Danger warning label and is approved by the National Organic Program. Rotenone is used by many organic farmers and causes Parkinson-like symptoms in mammals. On and on it goes.

Needless to say it's generally pretty fucking stupid to drink or eat pesticide regardless of the type.

[Dont call me Shirley]

48. Since it's so stupid to eat or drink pesticides, then why is it suddenly safe to eat them in our

food.

But promote Monsatan at all costs, cuz it's safe ya know. Wink-wink.

[Major Nikon]

63. Lots of reasons

Some pesticides are harmless to humans, but effective at killing other things. Some break down into harmless compounds very quickly when exposed to the air and sun. Some are present in such low levels by the time it makes it to your plate that toxicity isn't an issue. If you buy your produce and regardless of where you buy it, it's a pretty good idea to wash it. I'm sure there are some who believe if it's 'organic' it can't possibly contain "poison". Ignorance is bliss I suppose. If you grow your own produce for any length of time, you'll quickly realize spreading "poison" on your fruits and veggies isn't such a bad idea after all.

[Dont call me Shirley]

65. And muddy the toxic waters

of Monsatan. Let's confuse people about deadly glyphosate poison so they won't question the fact that it is making people and nature very sick.

[Major Nikon]

76. Kinda like appeals to emotion and posting non-facts, no?

[yellowcanine]

87. That discussion was locked as "creative speculation." Probably should not cite it....

Just sayin.'

"A consensus of host agree, this OP does not meet the standards of the SOP for the General Discussion Forum and recommend posting it in Creative Speculation."

[Dont call me Shirley]

106. I didn't know Thom Hartmann was a creative speculationist.

Sorry, didn't mean to hijack the thread. Won't do it again.

[yellowcanine]

111. Thom Hartmann, no, try Stephanie Seneff - have to look at the actual source.

Hartmann merely supplied the platform. Yes he should have had an actual biological research scientist on who could have provided some perspective. Seneff is an electrical engineer/computer scientist posing as a biologist. Lots of correlative bs with little actual research.

[Ilsa]

3. This look like a great opportunity for enterprising

Bakers and baking companies.

I've long suspected that a substantial amount, certainly not all, of the gluten-free business is more fad than actual health problems. I wonder how many people who swear by GF have also given up other things that make their brain foggy, like alcohol?

BTW, I know some people have celiac disease, and others really are healthier without gluten in their diet. But I'm having a hard time believing that everyone who is GF has had their health significantly transformed.

(Miley Cyrus said she's lost weight on a GF diet. For people with celiac disease, weight loss is usually a problem because they are consuming gluten.)

[haikugal]

14. There is a spectrum of illness.

Many people diagnosed with IBS all the way to celiac. Often IBS (which is a description rather than a diagnoses) is something else that requires a colonoscopy and lab work to name. This is not as rare as some would have you believe...it's simply unknown or misunderstood. All of these issues are improved with having gluten, casein and roughage reduced diets.

I'll read with interest but had to mention that there are a lot of people having issues and few 'experts' with very much real understanding or knowledge, this includes the doctors caring for these patients. I say this from experience, and It includes hospitals and their food menus. Very discouraging to see this so often called 'a fad'.

[jomin41]

28. amen

I'm so sick of docs and tests etc. with no help. Monash University in Australia has taken the lead on IBS with the low-fodmap diet. It helped me a LOT. A lot of people improve just by eliminating wheat. It's not the gluten. It's these certain sugars (fodmaps). Fermentable Oligo, Di, and Mono-sachirides (sp?) And Polyals. If you've got a functional GI disorder that has eluded your crack medical team, check this out.

[haikugal]

50. Thanks, I will!

I have mast cell involvement so I take an anti histamine and that helps....have to watch certain foods etc.

I'm doing much better than I was, hope you are too. Low fod map diet is excellent for these problems. I have given up on my GI doc. I tried to talk to him about what I'd learned and what diet worked and he said "you don't have to be so strict with your diet", I knew then it was useless.

Do you have a place on the web you particularly like? I will google but just wondered.

[Pooka Fey]

4. Interesting theory, I just read Wheat Belly

and I've tried to cut out the wheat, rye, etc to switch to low-gluten grains like oatmeal and buckwheat - to replace morning toast with buckwheat muffins. I seem to have digestive problems with bread (and it makes me fat), I have had to face facts due to recurring the health problems described in Wheat Belly. I must say he made a convincing argument that modern Dwarf wheat is now completely genetically unrelated to traditional American Durham wheat.

I think the wheat gluten subject is really serious, but it seems Davies of Wheat Belly was caught cherry-picking out parts of studies to make them agree with him. He seems to have gone off the deep end in his latest follow up book to Wheat Belly, and is now saying ALL grass grains are toxic to humans. Rice, buckwheat, corn, wild rice Same thing with the author of Grain Brain. If you read the 1 star reviews on Amazon, people have really taken time to show the flaws and dishonesty used in their methodologies. Too much bad science kills the science.

Faster can be better in some areas, but in cuisine it rarely is. Glad to see someone using traditional baking techniques. Go slow-food!

[kristopher]

17. Non-Celiac Gluten Sensitivity May Not Exist

Non-Celiac Gluten Sensitivity May Not Exist
Posted by Ross Pomeroy May 14, 2014


In 2011, Peter Gibson, a professor of gastroenterology at Monash University and director of the GI Unit at The Alfred Hospital in Melbourne, Australia, published a study that found gluten, a protein found in grains like wheat, rye, and barley, to cause gastrointestinal distress in patients without celiac disease, an autoimmune disorder unequivocally triggered by gluten. Double-blinded, randomized, and placebo-controlled, the experiment was one of the strongest pieces of evidence to date that non-celiac gluten sensitivity (NCGS), more commonly known as gluten intolerance, is a genuine condition.

By extension, the study also lent credibility to the meteoric rise of the gluten-free diet. Surveys now show that 30% of Americans would like to eat less gluten, and sales of gluten-free products are estimated to hit $15 billion by 2016 -- that's a 50% jump over 2013's numbers!

But like any meticulous scientist, Gibson wasn't satisfied with his first study. His research turned up no clues to what actually might be causing subjects' adverse reactions to gluten. Moreover, there were many more variables to control! What if some hidden confounder was mucking up the results? He resolved to repeat the trial with a level of rigor lacking in most nutritional research. Subjects would be provided with every single meal for the duration of the trial. Any and all potential dietary triggers for gastrointestinal symptoms would be removed, including lactose (from milk products), certain preservatives like benzoates, propionate, sulfites, and nitrites, and fermentable, poorly absorbed short-chain carbohydrates, also known as FODMAPs. And last, but not least, nine days worth of urine and fecal matter would be collected. With this new study, Gibson wasn't messing around.

37 subjects took part, all confirmed not to have celiac disease but whose gastrointestinal symptoms improved on a gluten-free diet, thus fulfilling the diagnostic criteria for non-celiac gluten sensitivity.** They were first fed a diet low in FODMAPs for two weeks (baseline), then were given one of three diets for a week with either 16 grams per day of added gluten (high-gluten), 2 grams of gluten and 14 grams of whey protein isolate (low-gluten), or 16 grams of whey protein isolate (placebo). Each subject shuffled through every single diet so that they could serve as their own controls, and none ever knew what specific diet he or she was eating. After the main experiment, a second was conducted to ensure that the whey protein placebo was suitable. In this one, 22 of the original subjects shuffled through three different diets -- 16 grams of added gluten, 16 grams of added whey protein isolate, or the baseline diet -- for three days each.

Analyzing the data, Gibson found that each treatment diet, whether it included gluten or not, prompted subjects to report a worsening of gastrointestinal symptoms to similar degrees...

http://www.realclearscience.com/blog/2014/05/gluten_sensitivity_may_not_exist.html

This is extremely persuasive research.

[pnwmom]

23. Some symptoms of gluten sensitivity aren't limited to subjective impressions.

I get bleeding when exposed to gluten. A relative was having elevated liver enzymes prior to the diet.

And the whole study structure doesn't make sense to me. Going off gluten for three weeks isn't a long enough time to undo damage from gluten; and shuffling through three diets in three weeks (and then three diets in 9 days) is also going to obscure the results.

For many people with Celiac and non-Celiac sensitivity, it can take months to heal from the damage caused by gluten. So this experiment makes little sense to me.

[kristopher]

30. That study design is bulletproof.

And it's results are unarguable.

[pnwmom]

38. Yeah, right. As bullet-proof as a pound of swiss cheese. n/t

[kristopher]

49. You're right up there with those who deny climate science...

I'm sorry you thought you'd found answers to problems you have; but facing truths we'd rather avoid is a part of life that almost always leads us to better outcomes.

[pnwmom]

51. Thanks for your concern but I don't have GI problems, including GI bleeding, since my GI doctor -- not a science denier --

gave me a blood test and then told me to go on a gluten-free diet. This was more than 10 years ago, and it followed a year of ulcerative colitis symptoms, including significant bleeding, and tests for cancer and other serious illnesses.

With respect to the large amount of research documenting non-celiac gluten sensitivity, a single contrary study, confirmed by no other researcher, proves nothing. You should know this.

The reason no one else had done a study like the one in the OP is probably because it doesn't prove anything. It can take weeks or even months on a gluten-free diet before the symptoms completely resolve, so this on-and-off-again-changing-every-week-diet proves nothing.

[kristopher]

52. You were probably given that advice on the basis...

... of research by the same person who did the study I posted. His follow up study was designed to correct several weaknesses in the original research. That's why I wrote that it was bulletproof - he constructed his follow-on study knowing the deficiencies that were present in the original research, which had been only tentative. His more recent findings totally undermine the what had been labeled as tentative original conclusions.

[pnwmom]

53. No, his recommendation was based on the results of three blood tests I had for gluten sensitivity, which were based

on a couple decades of research.

No study of 37 patients that has not been confirmed by other independent researchers is bullet-proof. To say that mocks the scientific method. But his study design is -- on the face of it -- flawed, because there is often a lag between exposure to gluten and the development of symptoms; and withdrawal of gluten and symptom relief. His study involving short exposures to the different diets and quick changes among them can produce only murky results -- which is what he got.

For the study to mean anything, subjects would have to be off gluten for several months; and then on each of the diets for several months. His study kept subjects in a constant state of adjusting to different diets, and didn't give enough time for symptoms to either start or resolve before switching to another diet.

[kristopher]

54. The research proved there is no such thing as gluten sensitivity.

If you have Ciliac's that is one thing. If you don't then gluten isn't your problem.

[pnwmom]

56. I don't have Celiac, which is a particular type of damage to the upper intestine.

I have gluten-sensitive ulcerative colitis, which is every bit as serious. So are a relative's gluten-sensitive elevated liver enzymes. So was another relative's Dermatitis Herpetiformis, a skin condition caused by gluten (he died of the complications). So is gluten-sensitive Crohn's.

The study you linked to shows that quickly switching subjects from diet to diet produced murky results. And that's all it showed.

[kristopher]

62. here is one possible course of action

First, here is a link to the abstract of the study:
http://www.gastrojournal.org/article/S0016-5085(13)00702-6/abstract
You may want to order a copy of the entire paper for reference.

You could also contact Dr. Gibson directly and express you beliefs with the evidence you have. It wouldn't hurt to get his reaction.
http://www.med.monash.edu.au/cecs/gastro/contactus.html

Here is Dr. Gibson's webpage at the university.
http://www.monash.edu.au/research/people/profiles/profile.html?sid=9271&pid=4138

Lastly, I offer some thoughts from a different physician that is a member of a Celiac Disease Foundation:

...Popular media is enjoying this story, and gluten-free diet haters are jumping on the bandwagon. Finally, scientific proof that those annoying gluten-free dieters must be making it all up. The perfect story to read while downing a big slice of pizza.

Our board member, Amy Burkhart, MD, RD, elucidated the topic for us by placing the study in a larger context that helps explain its significance. “The media coverage is on a study published last year that found that FODMAP sugars may be the culprit in people being diagnosed with gluten sensitivity. It may be the carbohydrate component rather than the gluten component of the wheat that is causing symptoms. There are other components of wheat that may also be problematic. Perhaps gluten sensitivity will soon be given a new name as it doesn’t appear the gluten is always the issue.”

Dr. Burkhart emphasized, “This study is not addressing celiac disease. Celiac disease is an autoimmune reaction to gluten that has been well-documented for decades. The existence of celiac disease is not under debate. It is non-celiac gluten sensitivity that is under the microscope.”...

http://www.celiaccommunity.org/incendiary-journalism/

I'm on your side it this, believe it or not. I don't doubt you have a chronic health condition and I want you to receive the best, most knowledgeable care to address it.

[pnwmom]

64. What you and this study are also ignoring is that gluten sensitivity can produce

symptoms beyond the GI tract. So this study does nothing at all to address that, though you are (and the article writer) are claiming that it might prove that non-celiac gluten sensitivity doesn't exit.

Also, I'm familiar with the FODMAP diet. In my opinion, it's more limiting than a gluten free diet (and it also eliminates wheat), but I'm glad that it helps some people.

By the way, one of the authors of the study you linked to acknowledges that their study produces no final answer -- despite your claims. From the link you provided:

Biesiekierski recognizes that gluten may very well be the stomach irritant we've been looking for. "There is definitely something going on," she told RCS, "but true NCGS may only affect a very small number of people and may affect more extraintestinal symptoms than first thought. This will only be confirmed with an understanding of its mechanism."

[kristopher]

67. My sense is that...

...your position on this information is emotional more than rational. I believe maintaining your stance requires ignoring far more than what you accuse me of.
In any case it is your health - may it be good through a long and happy life.

[pnwmom]

68. And my sense of your position is that you've read a few articles recently that you found convincing

Last edited Wed Feb 18, 2015, 11:41 PM - Edit history (3)

because you knew very little about the subject to begin with, and had heard many people complain about the gluten-free fad.

I've been keeping up with research on Celiac and non-celiac gluten sensitivity since my GI doctor first diagnosed me more than fifteen years ago (years before your Australian expert performed his first study), followed by my uncle being diagnosed with another proven gluten-related disease, DH.

At one time Celiac (or any form of gluten sensitivity) was thought to be very rare in the US, even though it was much more common in Europe. Researchers here finally realized that the American descendants of of Celiacs in Europe had the same incidence of Celiac as their European relatives. And then researchers began to discover that in families with Celiac, relatives often had other symptoms of gluten sensitivity, such as elevated liver enzymes or the skin disorder, Dermatitis Herpetiformis.

The author of the study you are promoting never made the claim that his was a bullet-proof study providing the final answer. And neither did his co-author, who says the jury is still out.

Over the years since my diagnosis I've found it easier to follow the diet, both inside my home and out, because of the increased attention people are paying to gluten in their diets -- regardless of the reason. Foods are better labeled now, and travel is easier because restaurants are more likely to understand what gluten-free means.

If I'm feeling irked it's because I don't appreciate people falsely claiming that people who have accepted that non-Celiac gluten sensitivity exists are akin to "climate science deniers" (as you did in one of your early posts in this thread) and that a single "bullet-proof" study has proven that non-Celiac gluten sensitivity doesn't exist. The authors of that study have not made that claim and you shouldn't either.

Here's more info about the research on non-Celiac gluten sensitivity. Not that it probably matters to you, since you made up your mind based on your single "bullet proof," un-replicated study of 37 subjects.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3820047/

[Pooka Fey]

70. +1

[Major Nikon]

79. It's not the only study

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17513580

I've seen other studies that suggest breads leavened with wild yeast actually reduce gastric distress generally. I think the jury is still out and there's still much to be learned. Europeans don't have nearly as many problems with this and neither did Americans 50 years ago. This suggests to me that modern preparation methods with gluten and dough enhancers may have something to do with it. One thing that sure is that problems with gluten sensitivity are not fun and if you've found something that works you may not want to try something else until more is known.

[pnwmom]

86. I agree with you that the jury is still out

on the extent of non-Celiac gluten sensitivity (meaning symptoms that occur outside of the upper intestine.) There has been a great deal of research, however, demonstrating extra-intestinal effects of gluten sensitivity, especially among Celiacs and their relatives.

And I also agree with you that there may be more problems now because of the amount of gluten people are exposed to , and the way it is prepared. And there may be people who have reactions in addition to gluten and respond to the FODMAP diet.

I don't agree with the poster I was responding to, who said a single "bullet proof" study of 37 people proves that there is no such thing as non-Celiac gluten sensitivity.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3820047/

[Widget2000]

73. +1

Have you seen that one argue how e-cigs are the next incarnation of Satan, come to poison THE CHILDREN?

[Widget2000]

72. You certainly like to cherry pick which science you think it spurious

And which is bomb-proof, entirely contingent upon your personal biases.

Poorly conducted research re: e-cigs? BAN EM!

Research suggesting people might talk themselves into having the latest fad-malady? TOTAL BS!

[pnwmom]

74. So, in your opinion, a single study involving 37 subjects that has not been repeated

by any other researcher can be said to be "bullet-proof"?

That shows how much you understand about science.

[Pooka Fey]

40. Glad you pointed out about the healing process

Since I'm at week 1 of cutting out wheat and the task seems pretty overwhelming. I think I'm sensitive, not Celiac, I might go get tested to confirm it. I'm just trying something new, because I'm sick of indigestion.

[pnwmom]

43. Pooka Fey, unfortunately the blood tests only work if you continue to eat gluten

because they measure a reaction to gluten in the diet. So if you want the blood tests, then go back on gluten for a few weeks and then test. After the blood test you can go off gluten as soon as you wish.

It IS a difficult diet, especially because it's not just limited to wheat, and because the various sources of gluten can be hidden in many processed foods. If you had a positive blood test that might motivate you.

If you had a negative or uncertain test, that doesn't rule out gluten problems because the test can have false negatives. In that case, your only option, if you're still having symptoms, would be a full trial of the diet, eliminating all sources of wheat, barley, and rye from the diet -- and for some people, also oatmeal.

(I'm one of the unfortunates who react to oatmeal, too, even the kind that is specially grown not to be contaminated by wheat. No one knows why but some Celiac and gluten-sensitive people do, even though pure oatmeal doesn't contain that kind of gluten.)

[Pooka Fey]

71. Thanks for the good advice

My indigestion and bloating bother me less, after just a 1 week of (almost totally) eliminating wheat, so it would be hard to go back to wheat now. I also have low thyroid, and I saw your other post about how thyroid and gluten sensitivity often go hand and hand.

I have already been eating clean for years - little to no sugar nor processed foods, no empty calories, but I have found losing weight impossible even though the low thyroid problem is managed. I'm glad I found the Wheat Belly book, it's what I needed to convince me to keep trying to fix my health.

Your posts on the subject have been great!

[KamaAina]

20. I have heard that French bread in France is better because of the wheat

they grow different varieties over there. I could easily see one of the many artisan bakers in the Bay Area importing some French flour and baking with it.

[Pooka Fey]

37. According to Wheat Belly, the dwarf wheat is grown everywhere now

There are awesome breads here, and also cheap crap breads which taste like Safeway. The biggest difference is that there are still neighborhood bakeries. We've moved 4 times, each time we visit all the neighborhood bakeries to find which ones are the best. Some make good cakes, but their bread is so-so, or the croissants rock the earth, but you need to avoid the pies, but the bread is fine.

Yeah, the bakeries have lots of different varieties of breads, still most people buy the cheap Safeway baguette when 30 cents more would buy an awesome baguette. Sighhhhhhhhhh. I love bread.

Like I said, I just stopped eating wheat because of poor digestion - I seem to feel less bloated. It's only week 1 of the diet change. I've resisted the whole gluten thing and Atkins thing up until now, but Wheat Belly convinced me - he says basically that what they call 'wheat' really isn't anymore, genetically speaking, and humans can't digest it.

[BrotherIvan]

55. I use Einkorn wheat and am loving it

It is the original wheat that is described in "amber waves of grain". It does not work like regular (red wheat, soft wheat, etc) flour that we have now in that it does not make the high rising cakes because it contains less gluten. But it has a delicious taste (yes, an actual taste) and works great for many things. Plus, you don't get that full, bloated feeling when you eat it.

You can bake with it, once you learn how and I haven't. And it makes excellent sourdough. It is said to work well for people that can't eat regular wheat or have mild gluten issues.

[yellowcanine]

90. "modern Dwarf wheat is now completely genetically unrelated to traditional American Durham wheat."

If the wheat belly doctor said that he is full of crap. First of all, it is durum wheat. Durham is a city in North Carolina. And durum wheat is a specific kind of tetraploid wheat used mostly for pasta production. Bread wheat is a type of hexaploid wheat. and yes, it is related to durum wheat. All of the different types of wheat can have dwarfing or semidwarfing genes incorporated into them and it does not suddenly make them "genetically unrelated" to the parent varieties. The wheat belly doctor appears to know very little about the genetics of wheat (or any other kind of plant genetics, for that matter).

Major cultivated species of wheat (Triticum)
• Common Wheat or Bread wheat - (T. aestivum) A hexaploid species that is the
most widely cultivated in the world.
• Durum - (T. durum) The only tetraploid form of wheat widely used today, and
the second most widely cultivated wheat today.
• Einkorn - (T. monococcum) A diploid species with wild and cultivated variants.
One of the earliest cultivated, but rarely planted today.
• Emmer - (T. dicoccon) A tetraploid species, cultivated in ancient times but no
longer in widespread use.
• Spelt - (T. spelta) Another hexaploid species cultivated in limited quantities.
• Kamut® or QK-77 - (T. polonicum or T. durum) A trademarked tetraploid
cultivar grown in small quantities that is extensively marketed. Originally from
the Middle East.

Much more here if interested....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxonomy_of_wheat

[LittleGirl]

5. I am gluten free but not by choice

I love bread and anything baked with flour but every single time I eat it, I get sick, I get rashes and I get fat. I am also dairy free, soy and sugar free which has put my thyroid condition in remission. Gluten is a thyroid disruptor and it's been proven that those of us with thyroid issues need to give it up. I have several family members with celiac so I believe I have a milder case of it. I also have several family members with celiac and thyroid so they kind of pair up. My husband gave up gluten when I did and he still eats bread and pasta occasionally and every time he does, he gets ill.

[pnwmom]

24. With your skin issues

I'm especially glad you gave it up. My uncle also had thyroid problems and weight gain. His skin issues eventually got so bad -- with terrible itching, blistering and peeling -- that his skin was literally falling off. The hospital wrapped his entire body in something like Saran wrap in an effort to save his life. It was only after his death that we learned that Celiac and gluten sensitivity ran in the family.

[central scrutinizer]

6. I use only sourdough methods

in baking bread and pizza. It is easy to make your own starter and in a couple of weeks you will have a strong culture. A loaf of bread does take some time - about 6 hours from start to finish but while you are waiting for the dough to rise, you can clean house, do laundry, etc. And by using a baking stone in the oven, the bread turns out great.

[SoCalDem]

7. "Back in the day"

I'm talking early 1970's & before,...back when there were multiple small, family-owned bakeries, one common thread was this one..

Someone... had to be at the bakery by midnight, preparing the dough for the next day's wares...

If you were a night owl, out on the town, as you were returning home after a long night of partying, the smell of fresh baking bread was intoxicating

By 8 am Eagle Bakery was sold out of their poppy seed topped egg bread..and by 10 AM, their mark-down bin was empty & they were closed for the day

[KamaAina]

8. How does that work outside coastal California?

I heard of someone who got hold of some SF starter and brought it back to Indiana. But it just wasn't the same. He called the result "Bloomington sourdough".

And this seems to imply that sourdough is better for you than other kinds of bread! We couldn't be happier!

[Major Nikon]

10. Location is irrelevant to how sourdough tastes

There are many variables which determine how sourdough tastes. Location is not one of them. How you feed your starter, what you feed your starter, at what temperature it's stored, feeding intervals, and a few other things all have a big impact on how the finished product tastes. That's why you can't just borrow a sample of somone's starter and expect the same results.

You don't need sourdough to get long rise times, either. You can force longer rise times with lower temperatures, or simply using less yeast.

[KamaAina]

11. Well, then, perhaps you should come to SF and acquire some starter

then take it back to wherever you are and make authentic sourdough there!

[Major Nikon]

25. I don't need SF starter

I can and do make starter right in my own kitchen, and if I want it to taste like SF sourdough, I can do that if I wish. However I prefer a more subtle and complex flavor, so I feed my culture differently than the way they typically do in SF. Instead mine is more like French levain, where they were leavening authentic bread from wild yeast centuries before the white man knew where or what SF was.

http://www.thejoykitchen.com/ingredients-techniques/sourdough-or-levain-debunking-myths-and-mysteries-harnessing-wild-yeast

[Ruby the Liberal]

42. Google "gluten free sour dough starter"

There are countless recipies for it. It may take some trial and error to find one you like though, depending on what GF flour or flour blend gives you the consistency you prefer.

[AngryAmish]

46. Not so. A culture/mother consists of two organisms (plus hundreds of irrelevant ones)

There is the yeast and the lactobacilli. Yeast is the favor, lactobacilii is the puff.

This is the deal - we all have lactobacilli and yeast naturally in our kitchen. Some taste good, some taste bad. If you get an San Francisco starter, neglect it, the local will take over. But feed the sf a lot, it will take over. Nature in tooth and claw as they say.

So when people say their starter is affected by a host of things, it just means the local flora of yeast tastes bad. Once established the bugs want to live and will if given the right enviroment.

If yours sux, try sourdo.com. i got a naples starter for pizza, amazing.

[Major Nikon]

61. If the local yeast takes over, you've got problems and better start over

The yeast that grows in your kitchen is not what you want to culture because it's not the type that feeds most efficiently on flour. The type you want to culture is the type that does feed efficiently on flour which is already contained in the flour you buy and will always eventually take over regardless of where you got your start from initially. Certainly some strains of LAB contained in the starter culture do not come from the flour used, but are not restricted to any one area and instead are basically endemic everywhere. Other strains of LAB will be found in the flour used. Which strains of LAB and yeast become dominate largely depend on the PH of the culture and the static temperature and temperature at feeding. Therefore by adjusting what you feed your culture and how you feed it, will determine what it tastes like. So flavor is just a matter of culturing which you want and to what ratio and will naturally be influenced by the ingredients you use.

You also have it exactly backwards. Yeast provides the leavening, LAB provides the flavor although yeast will also determine aroma to a lesser extent, which is a component of flavor. The sour flavor of San Francisco sourdough comes from lactic acid produced by the LAB (along with many other flavor compounds). The French actually consider a sour taste a failure, but that's another story. The flavor will also largely be determined by the ratio of yeast to LAB. More amino acid = more flavor. More yeast in relation to LAB = less flavor because there will be less amino acids.

http://www.google.com/search?q=02e7e52d3ff1ec6e69000000.pdf

[closeupready]

12. I used to get such terrible heartburn after carb-heavy, wheat-filled breakfasts.

I reduced my wheat consumption tremendously a few years ago in conjunction with a larger diet/exercise change, and voila, my problem with heartburn came to an end. Just like that.

I still consume bread, but in more moderate portions, and essentially whole wheat form.

[One_Life_To_Give]

15. For all of you near Boston, their is Slow Rise/Nashoba Brook

In love with the Rosemary Garlic myself. Only made on Mon,Wed & Fri. Straight from the toaster, slathered in butter. You can just hear my arteries hardening. But worth every bit of it.

Wether it's true or not. It's good for local places, like above, that offer products done the old fashioned ways. Costs a bit more but to me it is worth the price and effort.

[Helen Borg]

16. I make my own bread...

Not that difficult, make it during the weekend, then freeze extra for later.

[REP]

57. I make mine as well

I don't use instant yeast; I have to bloom it before I add the rest of the ingredients. I only make a loaf a week as I don't eat much of it myself. I'm not celiac or "gluten sensitive" or any such thing - bread just loves to stay with me. Im diabetic as well, so it's just as well!

Depending upon the weather, it takes 45-120 minutes per rise with the yeast I use. I can't imagine waiting days for a loaf!

[pnwmom]

18. Gluten is a real problem for some of us and not for others.

This woman's experiments on herself, with her test population of one, don't disprove that.

When I'm exposed to gluten in any form -- not just in wheat, but in the other gluten-containing grains -- I get intestinal cramps and bleeding. And the gluten-free menu certainly beats that.

[Dreamer Tatum]

19. I call gluten nazis "Imbeciliacs". nt

[pnwmom]

27. Thanks. That tells me a lot about you.

I get intestinal bleeding when exposed to gluten, even the amount in a prescription medication, so I guess I'm one of those Nazis.

Now I know who you are, too.

[Dreamer Tatum]

31. Yes, you can now avoid me and my Gluten Ray that I wield.

Oh, brother.

For every one legit celiac there are about 1000 sanctimonious bullshitters buying $7 loaves of bread and telling me how great they feel.

[NYC_SKP]

33. Perhaps they refer to the handful who don't even suffer but over-respond to the gluten problem.

We both know they exist.

I am sure that they didn't mean true sufferers, like my friend's little girl.

[pnwmom]

35. Except that the slur the person used contains a pun on the word "celiac."

And anyone who mocks the gluten-sensitive with words like "Imbeciliac" is also mocking people with Celiac and others with severe gluten problems.

Ask your friend how she feels about people using words like that to describe other forms of gluten sensitivity. And you might ask her if she's ever had to act as a "gluten nazi" -- from the viewpoint of ignorant people -- when protecting her daughter.

I have a severe form of sensitivity but only feel grateful for those who might be less sensitive, but speak out on the need for gluten-free food. It used to be a lot harder to find what I needed. Now thanks to better labeling and more people asking for gluten-free foods (and food prep) it's easier to find.

[Ruby the Liberal]

41. As a celiac, I thank the gods for each and every one of them

Just 3 years or so ago, I had to make everything from scratch. A noble effort, but VERY time consuming and I don't enjoy cooking all that much. Now, thanks to the "fad", European brands like Scharr are now sold in the US and I can make yummy pastas and pizzas when I get home from work quicker than you can call some chain pizza joint for delivery.

[RobinA]

77. This Had Occurred

to me as well. The whole fad thing with every other person suddenly being poisoned by gluten annoys the crap out of me, but I know someone who has celiac and was diagnosed quite some years ago. I remember when I heard about what he couldn't eat it just seemed darn near impossble for him to enjoy food anymore. Or eat out.

But now while I'm searching through the nongluten avalanche at the grocery store, I just think, Well, this makes it easier for the real celiac people who really did, and I guess still do but to a lesser degree, have a rough time finding food they can eat. So, best wishes. I hope once the fad settles down you will continue to have a decent choice at the grocery store.

[Ruby the Liberal]

108. Eating out is still a problem, but getting better

Years ago, they would take the bun off the hamburger or remove the croutons from a salad and consider it "clean" from wheat. Now, it seems most chefs understand and are more than happy to recommend menu items that they can serve without challenging the integrity of the restaurant's menu. It has been wonderful.

But you are right. When I was first Dx and had to read labels, the thing that blew me away the most was Twizzlers. Most candy is OK, but Twizzlers lists wheat as the #2 ingredient. It is truly in everything.

[Pacifist Patriot]

82. Alas...

I've been considering a number of responses to this insensitive insult, but every single one of them would be rightly alerted upon.

[TheSarcastinator]

94. that's what I like about you, Tatum

Even when you are right (which is very rare), you are wrong. Every time.

[Mosby]

21. Maybe the real problem is overconsumption, just a thought.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

39. An off topic question based on your avatar.

Are you a beagle person? The housemate and I are, and were happily watching Westminster for a couple of nights to see 'Miss P' win both best of breed and best in show. (Although we prefer the 13", and she's a 15".)

[Mosby]

45. Yes, me and my SO love beagles

Our current beagle is a male named Brock, we adopted him from a local rescue organization. The avatar I'm using is from a pic of our first beagle, Bailey. She was the alpha dog in our house, at one time we had three beagles living with us, it was great but they were all pretty close in age so when they got older the vet bills were hefty.

I have seen some pics of Miss P, she is beautiful and full of spunk.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

22. Of course dinner plates being the size of dinner platters have nothing to do with it.

[Enthusiast]

26. Completely unrecommended.

Gluten in even tiny amounts makes me very seriously ill.

If you don't like gluten free food, don't eat it. No one is forcing gluten free on anyone.

[pnwmom]

29. Me, too. Thanks for speaking up. n/t

[DeSwiss]

34. It's the progress.

- And the fact that corporations are allowed to use us as guinea pigs and get away with it because they own the government.

K&R

You breathe poisons. You drink poisons. You eat poisons. You get sick and die too soon. Period.

[Glassunion]

44. I'm limited to a near grain free diet. I hate it.

I love bread. The smell, the taste, the texture... It's spongy goodness, so willing to sop up any and all juices or sauces left behind on your plate.

I miss it so...

[haikugal]

60. Yeah, that describes it, LOL

[KamaAina]

59. Welcome to DU, fellow cat person!

[muriel_volestrangler]

66. What are the units for measuring the potency of gluten?

By contrast, the team in Jones' laboratory, located in a rural stretch along Puget Sound, lets dough rise for as long as 12 hours—and they've found that the longer it rises, the less potent the gluten that remains in the finished bread.

What is the power that is attributed to the gluten that they measure?

[Duppers]

69. excellent point !!

[pnwmom]

75. Excellent questions! n/t

[Major Nikon]

78. PPM

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17513580

[muriel_volestrangler]

80. Oh, they just meant 'concentration', then

They could just say "the less gluten that remains".

So the claim of this, eventually, is still that gluten is bad for a lot of people.

[Major Nikon]

83. I think there's a bit more to it

It appears as if what they are saying is that gluten formed by long fermentation and/or by natural yeasts is not the same as gluten formed by commercial yeast and/or dough modifiers that greatly reduce fermentation time. I think they are saying "the less gluten that remains" in your lower intestine is what's important.

[muriel_volestrangler]

85. Gluten is not formed by fermentation; it's a complex of proteins in the wheat

What your link said was that lactobacilli and/or yeasts break down some of the gluten during sourdough fermentation. They get to consume it, rather than you. And the OP is claiming that a lot of people, not just those with celiac disease, cannot handle higher amounts of gluten.

[Major Nikon]

88. Gluten is formed by fermentation

Those proteins you mentioned are gliadin and glutenin which link together to form gluten. Gluten is generally formed by commercial bakers by either kneading and/or by using dough modifiers, but it can also be formed by longer fermentation and proofing.

Subject: 5. What is gluten and how is it developed?
What people call gluten is the formation of linkages between glutenin and gliadin. The "development" of dough consists of the formation of these bonds. These proteins have SH groups on them than can be linked into S-S groups. Just letting the sponge sit allows the reaction to proceed which is why the French call this "long kneading" i.e. you do nothing and the gluten is partially, developed. This is why, in a post to Bruce Hudson on sponge type breads I said that dough could be developed mechanically, (by kneading), chemically (by mixtures of oxidants and reductants) or fermentatively. Very few people realize that you can develop dough in all three ways: they learnt kneading was very important and are fixated on it. In fact kneading is absolutely essential only for straight dough breads.

http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/whatisglutenandhowisitdeve.html

[muriel_volestrangler]

89. No, gluten is in the wheat; that's why it's in other wheat products, not just bread

What Foods Have Gluten?

Gluten is found in wheat, rye, barley and any foods made with these grains.

Avoiding wheat can be especially hard because this means you should avoid all wheat-based flours and ingredients. These include but are not limited to:

White Flour
Whole Wheat Flour
Durum Wheat
Graham Flour
Triticale
Kamut
Semolina
Spelt
Wheat Germ
Wheat Bran

Common foods that are usually made with wheat include:

Pasta
Couscous
Bread
Flour Tortillas
Cookies
Cakes
Muffins
Pastries
Cereal
Crackers
Beer
Oats (see the section on oats below)
Gravy
Dressings
Sauces

http://www.diabetes.org/food-and-fitness/food/planning-meals/gluten-free-diets/what-foods-have-gluten.html

http://celiac.org/live-gluten-free/glutenfreediet/what-is-gluten/
http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-living/nutrition-and-healthy-eating/in-depth/gluten-free-diet/art-20048530
I'll take the Celiac Disease Foundation, Mayo Clinc and American Diabetes Association over Darryl Greenwood, whoever he is.

[Major Nikon]

92. I have no idea who Darryl Greenwood is

But what he's saying is correct. Your other references are also correct. Gluten is in the flour, but the gluten networks are formed by the processes described in my previous reply. You can think of gluten as the steel girders that give bread it's structure once it's expanded by the CO₂ production during fermentation and proofing. Without developed gluten structures, dough can't expand to the degree desired during fermentation. The raw material is in the flour, but it's useless until those networks are linked together, which is why I and others are careful to say developed or formed rather than created.

[muriel_volestrangler]

97. So this new theory is that the macro structure, rather than the chemistry, is the problem

and not, then, the concentration after all? We can't measure this potency in parts per million of gluten, because it's about how the gluten is arranged?

It all sounds like hogwash, frankly. A thread titled "It's Probably Not Gluten" turns out to blame it entirely on gluten, and then some people think it's the structures in bread (which, of course, get extensively destroyed in chewing, swallowing and digesting) that many people have a problem with.

[Major Nikon]

98. Gluten toxicity seems to be more relevant

The study I posted shows that bread made from wild yeast and fermented over longer periods reduces the immune response to the proteins contained in gluten. So while you might think the explanation of the causal nature of that is "hogwash", the data speaks for itself.

[muriel_volestrangler]

100. The study you posted was about celiac disease, and said the gluten was degraded

during fermentation.

" Albumins, globulins, and gliadins were completely hydrolyzed, while ca. 20% of glutenins persisted. "

That means the proteins were being chemically broken apart.

That is the opposite of a claim that glutens are somehow "formed by fermentation". It's saying that the gluten is broken down sufficiently that it isn't toxic to people who suffer from celia disease.

[Major Nikon]

102. You realize this is after digestion?

Assays based on the proliferation of peripheral blood mononuclear cells (PBMCs) and gamma interferon production by PBMCs and intestinal T-cell lines (iTCLs) from 12 celiac disease patients were used to determine the protein toxicity of the pepsin-trypsin digests from fermented wheat dough (sourdough). As determined by R5-based sandwich and competitive ELISAs, the residual concentration of gluten in sourdough was 12 ppm. Albumins, globulins, and gliadins were completely hydrolyzed, while ca. 20% of glutenins persisted

Pepsin and trypsin are enzymes found in the human stomach which hydrolyze proteins.

[muriel_volestrangler]

103. "degradation by lactobacilli and fungal proteases during food processing"

The degradation is before it gets to humans.

[Major Nikon]

104. The part you quoted previously was after digestion

Which means after digestion, the gluten was broken down to component amino acids during digestion more efficiently by bread made from sourdough. The point of the whole study was sourdough degrades gluten to the point where this happens. It doesn't suggest that gluten isn't developed during fermentation.

Do you still think gluten proteins are hydrolyzed prior to ingestion?

[muriel_volestrangler]

105. Yes, gluten proteins are hydrolyzed prior to ingestion

From the paper:

Lactobacillus alimentarius 15 M, L. brevis 14G, L. sanfranciscensis 7A, and L. hilgardii 51B (defined as pool 1) were previously selected based on their capacity to hydrolyze gliadins (10). L. sanfranciscensis LS3, LS10, LS19, LS23, LS38, and LS47 (defined as pool 2) were selected based on their peptidase systems, with particular reference to activities towards Pro-rich peptides (8).

[Major Nikon]

107. Which is kinda the whole point of the study

Gluten is degraded during long fermentation to the point at which it is easier to digest into component amino acids, it is not destroyed during fermentation. There's still other proteins involved that aren't affected by fermentation. If they were, you would never get a loaf of bread made from wheat. You would get a tortilla or a pita. Gluten development by linking protein strains is essential to all forms of wheat based leavened breads and how you develop those gluten strains determines whether you get a chewy bagel or a birthday cake.

[muriel_volestrangler]

109. Most of the gluten is converted into amino acids in this fermentation

'CAD' is the chemically acidified dough used as a control; S2E12 is the sourdough with the lactobacilli and fungus proteases.

Spray-dried flour from CAD contained 0.29% water/salt-soluble proteins (mainly albumins and globulins; 16.3% of the total organic nitrogen content), 0.66% gliadins (37.1% of the total organic nitrogen content), and 0.83% glutenins (46.6% of the total organic nitrogen content), with a total organic nitrogen content of 1.78% that approximately corresponded to the protein concentration (the organic nitrogen content multiplied by 5.70 is 10.15%, versus a protein concentration of 10.3%) of the wheat flour used. The spray-dried flour from S2E12 showed a marked increase in the water/salt-soluble fraction to 1.66% (90.7% of the total organic nitrogen content), which corresponded to the accumulation of water/salt-soluble low-molecular-mass peptides and amino acids derived from the hydrolysis of all wheat proteins. Indeed, no organic nitrogen was detectable in the gliadin fraction, and the level of glutenins decreased to 0.17% (9.3%). The concentrations of free amino acids confirmed this difference: the CAD had ca. 1,050 mg/kg, while S2E12 contained ca. 14,622 mg/kg. Leu, Val, Glu, Ile, and Pro were present at the highest concentrations.

To get something that will have structure when it rises, they mill the sourdough, and then add 'structuring agents' - cornstarch and xanthan gum:

Sourdough bread was made using the same formula and conditions described for S2E12. After fermentation for 48 h at 37°C, water was removed by spray drying, the flour was milled, and the following formula was used for bread making: 125 g of fermented wheat flour (moisture content, ca. 12%), 100 ml of tap water (containing 1.5% baker's yeast), 6% (wt/wt) cornstarch (Clearam CH 20; product no. E1442; CHIMAB Spa, Pordenone, Italy), and 3% (wt/wt) xanthan gum (product no. E415; CHIMAB Spa).
...
After the fermentation of S2E12, the water was removed and the pretreated wheat flour was used for bread making by using baker's yeast and structuring agents. This bread (sourdough bread) was compared to baker's yeast bread made with untreated flour and without structuring agents.

[Pacifist Patriot]

81. The gluten-free craze has been both a blessing and a curse for people with celiac.

I am so grateful that gluten-free products are more widely available and better labeled than they were when I was first diagnosed. Gluten-free menus are way more common and the options have become decidedly more tasty.

On the other hand, my medical condition is treated less seriously now then it was almost a decade ago. When I inquire about gluten-free options today, I'm more likely to face the assumption that I've hopped on the Hollywood diet band wagon. A number of years ago, the restaurant industry may have been more ignorant, but in my experience, were more respectful of the very real need for some of us to avoid gluten.

[sendero]

84. I have a friend..

... that has had lupus for a long time. While he will always have the disease, when he went gluten free he was able to stop taking his meds. This is a really big deal for him.

It doesn't matter much to people affected whether its the breeding or the baking. Bottom line, there are some people who are sensitive to gluten and should not eat it.

[KitSileya]

91. You know, it would be interesting if all those claiming gluten intolerance

does so on the basis of eating store-bought or home-baked breads and other baked goods. I can't help thinking that there has to be a lot of additives in most bread etc sold in the US - bread lasts for weeks without mold! It's really scary if I let myself think about it too much.

[PasadenaTrudy]

93. Fine, more for me then.... n/t

[ND-Dem]

95. that's interesting, but what would be the mechanism through which breads which rise longer

make gluten 'less potent' (whatever that means)?

[Major Nikon]

99. Several things

Not using additives like extra gluten and dough modifiers would do it. Lower fermentation temperatures, using less commercial yeast, or using wild yeast which isn't as efficient are other ways.

[ND-Dem]

110. Yes, using less extra/added gluten would do it, but so what? It would do it regardless of

how long you let the bread rise.

I don't see that the other things you mention would make any difference in making gluten "less potent". which still hasn't been defined.

[libdem4life]

96. Just finished Wheat Belly and after having been a vegan some years back,

found not eating bread, et al, pretty easy. Just recently had developed my "spare tire" and realized I had also just found a bread I loved...Pepperidge Farm Ancient Grains. Heaven. But I started having an over-eating problem at the same time...first for me. Also had some new slight bladder incontinence and spaciness.

After one week entirely off gluten, the bladder is much better and I've lost a couple of pounds. But best of all, my eating is back to normal without the cravings. I've gone back to eating mostly fruits and veggies and beans/legumes with a bit of meat, dairy and eggs. I did find a Betty Crocker box of Gluten free flour at WalMart, so will try it. But I can make rice/oat flour in a high speed blender. Corn meal and oats seem to be OK for non-celiac.

I also carefully read the part about the tie-in with diabetes. Even without understanding all of the jargon, it just made sense. He says two slices of whole wheat bread have the sugar effect of more than 2 tablespoons of sugar. Breakfast is a challenge, what with mostly eggs, so yesterday I ate a fresh salad. Paradigm shift.

To me, I don't think he's lying about his case studies...they are remarkable, but just the initial benefits have me sold that it's just a superior way of eating these days, celiac, gluten-intolerant or not.

[Blue_In_AK]

101. I think there's something to this.

I, too, notice that overly stuffed feeling when I eat commercial bread, but my homemade sourdough bread doesn't have the same effect.

I've got a jar of 100-year-old sourdough from Sitka that my brother gave me. It sits in the back of my refrigerator for weeks, but it always comes to life when I bring it out and warm it up. It takes a couple of days to make the bread, but it's really worth the time. My brother jokes that the sourdough will probably outlive both of us.