I guess the new vogue is to defend ISIS as merely fighting off interlopers.

[Dreamer Tatum]

To which I say, gee, then why are they beheading and incinerating non-US soldiers?

And even if they did have the guts to try to capture US soldiers, wouldn't sticking them in a cage and lighting them on fire constitute one of DU's favorite charges, a WAR CRIME?

Sad and pathetic, the defense of these psychotic murderers.

[randys1]

1. I havent seen that here today and I have commented on the threads you are

referring to.

I have seen people make the observation that one person's terrorist is another's freedom fighter.

I have seen people, myself included, say that what ISIS is doing is horrible, unacceptable and must be stopped, while at the same time pointing out WHY They exist in the first place AND that it is NOT our job to stop them

[pnwmom]

142. Was it not our job -- along with other countries -- to stop Hitler?

Clearly, we had no business deposing Saddam Hussein.

But is intervention ever justified? Under what circumstances?

[TreasonousBastard]

2. An explanation is not necessarily a defense.

[geek tragedy]

3. Explanations should be accurate though.

ISIL is not a resistance or anti-imperialist movement. Some appear to be laboring under that illusion.

[hifiguy]

6. Agreed.

Imperialism doesn't explain every group of psychotics in the world, especially religulous psychotics.

[HereSince1628]

8. So -WHAT- is it?

the balaclavas covering faces the English with N. Am and British accents coming out of those balaclavas defy interpretation as devoted followers. If you're a devoted follower, you revel in and want to be identified with your choice of 'right action'.

[geek tragedy]

10. Apocalyptical death cult. nt

[HereSince1628]

15. or, perhaps, not at all what it is represented to be

The folks who control the media put this shit in front of me with explanations that I have no capacity to assess regarding veracity.

If I was a devout follower, and I am not, why would I hide my face when fulfilling the calling of my leaders?

Something is very much NOT right about this.

[geek tragedy]

16. They cover their faces so they can conduct covert attacks.

You're clutching a pretty thin reed to avoid recognizing the obvious about this group.

[HereSince1628]

17. Or maybe not. Few know who these killers are, and it is very UNLIKELY

that humanitarian workers working in Syria, who are the victims, would have access to media that allows facial recognition by people on the street.

I'll stick with 'something ain't right' about this.

[geek tragedy]

18. You're not making any sense. Their videos get broadcast around the world, so of course they

cover their faces when appearing on them.

Everyone knows who these killers are. They are ISIL. ISIS. Or Daesh if you prefer.

[HereSince1628]

20. Yes, faceless pics are sent around the world...BUT the people who migh react to their identities

are the people in Syria and Iraq. People who really aren't watching at Foggy Bottom

Saying they are ISIS says exactly zero about their personal identities. Why would they hide their identities as they do the thing that is seen as the high calling of their beliefs?

T he wearing of balaclavas suggests a desire to remain anonymous or to play to the fear of being killed by an anonymous assassin.

It suggests an awareness that what they do is and will be condemned by people around the world.

It suggests that they might be afraid of the ICC. Or it suggests that they know they will never be brought before the ICC but that they can manipulate the emotions of billions with horrendous acts.

[geek tragedy]

21. If they want to be able to travel abroad and conduct operations, it wouldn't be very smart

for them to reveal their faces.

Just like undercover cops don't show their faces when doing interviews.

[HereSince1628]

22. That would work if it were a group of one hundred or less persons

It IS NOT presented as such.

I really am not afraid of a couple score people. YES a couple score people can do terrible things, but not thing that threaten the existence of MY nation

[Caretha]

24. With the most

sophisticated surveillance system, the most sophisticated cyber NSA network in the world....you are telling me we can't shut their servers down, stop their YouTubes & Tweets. Really? Just Really?

With the most sophisticated satellite system in the world we can't stop them from snatching all the USA's WMD that we left lying around in Iraq. You are telling me these unsophisticated Jihadists have enough savvy to order and receive the best looking LLBean looking ninja outfits & orange prison outfits. BTW, Orange prison colors are uniquely the United States prisoner colors. Other countries have different colors.

I don't know what to say to people like you. I just shake my head slowly and wonder why oh why are people so gullible. My grandmother used to say...believe nothing what you hear, and believe 1/2 of what you see. With today's technology in the visible media arena, she would warn me/you to also now believe nothing of what you see.

[polly7]

27. Great post! I've thought this from the start.

There is SOMETHING going on that we don't know about.

[Egnever]

31. Nonsense

They cant take pirate bay down a site visited by millions every day, but you think they can take down videos posted through numerous different channels?

Gullible is an appropriate word here I just think your aim might be off.

[Caretha]

34. You might want to

investigate who is finding these videos to put in front of the American public.

You might just have to step out of the box a minute...think man think!

[Egnever]

37. Ok let me get my thinking cap on

Ahhh now I see what you mean!

[Caretha]

38. Now I understand

thank you for posting a selfie

[Egnever]

44. All kidding aside

There are plenty of witnesses to the atrocities this group is engaged in they are interviewed by news outlets all over the world. I stretches any and all credulity to think this is some kind of production put on for the American public.

[Caretha]

47. here is who

found the videos for ISIS.

Dig baby,l dig.

Same agency/company that found all the fake Bin Laden tapes.

[Egnever]

54. I am not sure what you are trying to say there

You find it odd that an agency devoted to monitoring terrorist networks found terrorist network videos?

Kind of like saying you are surprised a member of the audubon society found a rare bird before anyone else no?

Like I said there are thousands of witnesses interviewed by media all over the world it is impossible to create a conspiracy that large.

[Caretha]

58. It's obvious you

didn't take my advice.

I'm through. You either sincerely care about sources & reputations, or you are willing to buy whatever is fed you.

It makes no difference to me.

[Egnever]

63. What advice?

All I have seen so far is stuff you have made up in your head. The Idea that the NSA can scrub the internet of ISIS videos alone says clearly you are working from a flawed base of data to come to your conclusions.

[geek tragedy]

42. Do you not understand how the Internet works?

It doesn't take a special spy agency to "find" videos on the Internet or to spread them.

All they need to do is email a link or a copy of the video to thousands of news organizations at once.

[melman]

53. Okay

So who is it?

[Adrahil]

109. Do you have any evidence?

Tell us exactly what you think is going on and what your evidence is... I'll listen.

[Aerows]

43. Lets discuss the Pirate Bay for a second

Are you aware that MANY MANY entertainment companies leak their own work to the Pirate Bay to generate demand? Sony is famous for it!

There's gullible, and there's covering your eyes and saying you can't see.

Do you *REALLY* think the NSA isn't fully aware of what ISIS is doing? Do you *REALLY* think that the CIA doesn't know the source of their funding? They were selling black market oil for heaven's sake. A US Senator basically flat out said they were selling it to Turkey. You are aware that the oil fairy doesn't just take the oil, magically transport millions of barrels of it to it's destination, right? Are you claiming NOBODY noticed large amounts of oil being transported?

REALLY?

I don't know what the motivation in for the people hollering their heads off for us to get involved, but it isn't in our nation's best interest, I can assure you of that.

[Egnever]

48. So you are really going to try and jump on the crazy train that believes the nsa could scrub

All the ISIS videos from the web?

LOL

[Aerows]

57. I'm certainly not going to jump on the crazy train

that with the amount of funding the NSA and the CIA receive that they don't know exactly what is going on, because if they don't, they need to be defunded STAT.

I'm also not going to jump on the crazy train that this is about "FREEDOM!" and humanitarian reasons, either.

I was born at night, but it wasn't last night.

Tell me - why are you so gung ho for this? Honestly, what motivates you to cheer for us going to war and sending family members and friends to die or come back forever changed? Please help me understand.

[Caretha]

52. Oil Fairy

Oh I love it!

I worked for Conoco/Phillips at the 2nd largest inland refinery in the US.

You have no idea, or perhaps YOU do, the expertise, manpower & skills that go into making oil flow.

[Aerows]

62. Nobody under the sun

could possibly know how millions of barrels of oil left the areas ISIS controls.

Yep, and we are the ones that need tin foil hats, right?

[Caretha]

70. Aerows

I give up. I really really do.

I realize there isn't a damn thing I can do about the comfortable ignorance that most people wallow in.

It's hard work to think. Few are willing to put that effort in. They prefer someone else to do it for them. They feel safe that way, how I don't know, but they do.

God bless every single one. That's all I can say.

[Aerows]

74. This quote by Upton Sinclair sums it up

“It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.”

If you benefit financially either by working for the MIC or as a spokesperson for them, you aren't going to want to understand a whole lot of things.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

82. I like George Orwell's quote better

"Some ideas are so bizarre only an intellectual can believe them."

I don't know what the appropriate reaction to ISIS is but I know they are for real.

[Aerows]

83. Didn't say they aren't

I just think there are plenty of countries that are already there with standing armies that need to deal with it instead of relying on the US.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

84. They essentially declared war on Egypt when they incinerated their citizens.

Since 1980 they have received hundreds of billions of dollars of U S military and foreign aid as well as military training. If they can't kick ISIS' collective asses by themselves something ain't right.

[Caretha]

93. Well there you go

something ain't right.

[zappaman]

90. "Sony is famous for it"?

First time I've heard that and I know Sony quite well.
What exactly are you talking about here?

[Aerows]

99. Delighted you asked that!

Most recently:
https://torrentfreak.com/sony-planned-flood-torrent-sites-promo-torrents-141213/
http://gizmodo.com/report-sonys-hacking-its-own-leaked-data-to-stop-it-be-1669703768

Here's another interesting thing - they pirate themselves!

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20141227/05571829528/sonys-own-copyright-infringement-shows-how-broken-our-copyright-system-is-today.shtml

It always makes me smile when I can inform a person that "knows Sony quite well."

I'll dredge up the links from 2011 about them uploading their own content and paying a company to monitor how many downloads it got to determine popularity later if you like (can't right now). I can't remember which hack it was from, since there have been so damn many of them.

Please proceed, Zappaman.

Do tell how well you know Sony.

[zappaman]

124. Wow dude.

I asked cuz I have never head that before.
I don't understand the "they pirated themselves" part since the link seems to say they didn't pay for music they should have..unless I'm reading it wrong.

I also don't get this...
"Are you aware that MANY MANY entertainment companies leak their own work to the Pirate Bay to generate demand? Sony is famous for it!"
The links don't say they were leaking their work to generate demand, unless I'm reading it wrong, so I'm still not sure what you're getting at.

[Aerows]

125. Hopefully this will clear things up for you

Alright, zappaman who is highly familiar with Sony. I'll figure out which hack it was that revealed that they hired a company to post their own content and monitor the number of downloads to gauge popularity <---Pay attention to this part in bold.

Now, did you read the bold part? Because that is EXACTLY what they did, and one of the many hacks of Sony revealed this. Why would I makes something like that up? Did you think I pulled that statement out of thin air?

[zappaman]

131. Anger management not working out for you?

Who said you're making things up?
I'm simply asking what they posted to gauge popularity since I hadn't heard this before.
Sorry you take it so personally.

[Aerows]

133. zappaman

I'm not angry, and I didn't take it personally - I just know your particular brand of derailment and attempts to discredit those you disagree with (see: calling me angry and in need of anger management, implying I'm horrifically sensitive and take everything personally).

That is something you repeatedly do on DU. I'm not going to link to all of the examples, I'm not going to waste time on it. Personally attacking me because you have some dedication to Sony and don't like it when someone points out some of the underhanded (and stupid) things they've done is just lame.

[zappaman]

135. Okay, thanks for the condescension and NOT backing up your claims.

Til next time!

[Aerows]

136. I don't waste time

on people that bring nothing to the conversation but personal attacks.

[zappaman]

137. Too funny.

You attacked me for asking and now that you can't back up your claims, you fall back on your same tired excuse.
Oh well, I actually wanted to know if what you said was true and now I know it wasn't.

But you did make me laugh, so thanks for that!

[Aerows]

138. I'll give you one.

http://torrentfreak.com/media-companies-track-pirated-downloads-for-marketing-purposes-150218/

I could waste all day going back and forth with you, and you'll just feign ignorance or make snide comments. I'm far from the only one that remembers the whole incident.

It's neither far fetched, nor unsubstantiated as some of the other links I popped up earlier prove. You just want to waste my time, and I've got better things to do than play the distraction game with you.

Oh, and Viacom did it too for a different reason

Oh wait, I remember now. http://news.cnet.com/Leaked-e-mails-reveal-MediaDefenders-antipiracy-woes/2100-1027_3-6209084.html

The MediaDefender hack. Google it and get back to me.

[zappaman]

139. I read that article, but it don't see where it says anything to support

"Are you aware that MANY MANY entertainment companies leak their own work to the Pirate Bay to generate demand? Sony is famous for it"

It seems like they are gathering information on who is sharing their product.

Where does it say they are leaking their own work?

[Aerows]

140. Google

MediaDefender. I update my prior post. Have a look. You can use google just as well as I can.

It's all sitting out there on the internet.

[HereSince1628]

35. No, I am not telling you that. I am telling you this doesn't really add up

to the story it seems we are being asked to believe.

[Aerows]

45. None of this shit adds up

We have an established supply chain in the ME. The ME wants a new war, Generals don't want to lose their budgets so they have to spend the money.

Turkey, Jordan, KSA, Qatar, all are fully capable of handling this without us meddling.

[geek tragedy]

41. You clearly don't understand the Internet, or how easy it is to buy orange clothing.

It's not that we are gullible, it's that we don't wallow in silly paranoid conspiracy theories like the Alex Jones crowd does.

[Aerows]

50. LOL!

Come on, GT. You aren't a dummy.

I don't know what your motivation is for desperately wanting us to get involved, but this isn't about a "humanitarian" effort. This is being driven and narrated solely for financial gain. If it was anything else, we'd be fighting Boko Haram, which are just as bad if not worse than ISIS. The kicker is we don't have already established supply chains in Africa to the scope we have in the ME.

You are FAR smarter than this, so don't bother to come up with some Kumbaya explanation that the media and the government are attempting to talk the American people into this for "freedom". Anybody that believes that isn't smart enough to turn on a computer, much less find DU on the internet.

[Egnever]

59. Of course strategic interests play a part

That doesn't make what ISIS is doing any less worthy of being stopped. Boko Haram should be stopped as well. Every effort should be made to stop both of them.

[Aerows]

64. LMAO

"Strategic" interests.

[Egnever]

76. LMAO indeed

You don't accept the idea that the stability in that region is much more important to the world in general(meaning more than just the US) than it is in nigeria?

Are you seriously going to pretend that if the mideast with yes all of its energy reserves devolves into chaos it will not have a bigger impact on the world in general than if it happened in nigeria?

Are you seriously trying to suggest that the stability of energy markets aren't an important factor when working to build support for the sort of intervention that taking a group like this down will entail? Do you not understand that this is important to many countries not just us and is why

Or are you suggesting that we should do everything on our own and just pay for it all ourselves?

Or maybe your thinking is so simplistic you just think we should completely ignore atrocities around the world and let them sort themselves out?

I am not sure what your personal theory on it is as you seem to be all over the map. First you say its a conspiracy then you say one is just as bad as the other implying it isn't and seems to be an admital that what they are doing is atrocious in both cases.

The LMAO just leaves me to question your sanity or at least your ability to seriously think through these things.

This is not a trumped up case like Iraq was. Look at what the UN is doing look what other countries around the world are doing. There is no credible dissent anywhere that ISIS is not doing what is being reported. They have long stepped over the bounds of resistance and moved far into sadistic terrorist territory and need to be stopped.

[polly7]

80. ummm ....

OTTAWA — The federal government says Canada’s war in Iraq has cost at least $122 million, not including salaries and other fixed costs.

Defence Minister Jason Kenney revealed the figure Monday after the government had spent months refusing to release any cost estimates. The move came as Parliament’s budgetary watchdog was preparing to release his own study of how much Canada’s war against the Islamic State of Iraq and al-Sham (ISIS) is costing.

“Estimated incremental costs to date are approximately $122 million,” Mr. Kenney said in a statement. “Costs will ultimately be higher than that, but how much higher will depend on whether we wrap up the operation at the end of March, or extend it, so total final costs are still difficult to calculate.”

Several dozen special forces troops have been deployed to northern Iraq since September, while six fighter jets, two surveillance aircraft, a refuelling plane and around 600 support personnel have been based in Kuwait since October. The mission is to run until the beginning of April, but could be extended.

Questions have swirled around the war against ISIS since military officials revealed last month that Canadian soldiers have been on the front lines, calling in airstrikes and shooting back at enemy fighters. Hovering in the background was the government’s steadfast refusal to reveal how much the war is costing.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2015/02/16/canadas-war-against-isis-has-cost-122-million-not-including-salaries-and-other-fixed-costs-government-says/

When you say 'everything on your own', you're incorrect. And, I don't agree with us being there.

[Egnever]

86. What are you going on about?

I didn't say we were on our own I was trying to figure out if the poster I responded to wanted us to do it on our own.

Just the opposite I think if you look at coverage around the world you will see pretty clearly we are not alone in our concern about ISIS.

[polly7]

87. 'Or are you suggesting that we should do everything on our own and just pay for it all ourselves?'

And then you said she was being simplistic, I just assumed you didn't know that there were already other troops there.

[Aerows]

81. You questioning my sanity

because I'm not gullible enough to cheerlead for every war the news media is howling for?

For having a memory of the last time we got talked into this same scenario and mission creep grew with the speed of kudzu, only to find out it was all bullshit?

For knowing PNAC, the GOP and every flavor of neocon is chomping at the bit to fulfill their plans?

For being aware the financial incentives that Generals, Defense Contractors and everybody along the supply chain has to gain by plunging us into war?

Because I know that politics and money go hand in hand with war, and money tends to "disappear" in the vacuum of unlimited funding?

You question MY sanity? That's fucking rich.

This whole situation is an insult to the intelligence of Americans who are well aware that our infrastructure is in deep decline and we have people starving on the streets.

[Egnever]

91. My turn

LMAO




This is not the same situation as our invasion of Iraq,. The Iraq government itself is pleading with the UN for help.

Our stated reasoning for invading Iraq when we did under shrub was demonstrably false before we even invaded. There is zero evidence that ISIS is not who it claims to be or that it is not doing what is reported.

I defy you to cite one credible source claiming they are not what they say they are or that the world as a whole does not see them as the threat they are being portrayed as.

When you can do either one of those I will be more inclined to take what you say as anything more than someone that likes funny hats in this instance.

I would certainly prefer the region take care of this problem itself but I have no problem working with the region to solve it. Which is exactly what is going on.

[Caretha]

96. Zero Evidence?

please post links to your so called "evidence".

You can't & you won't.

I defy you to cite one credible source claiming they are not what they say they are or that the world as a whole does not see them as the threat they are being portrayed as.

And I defy YOU to cite one credible source!

Would those be the same sources who claimed Iraq had "WMD"? Yep, that would be the ones.

In the nicest way I know possible....

Screw your credible sources....they would be the ones who showed us those fantastic multilevel high tech caves that Al Quida and Bin Laden inhabited. Grow up!

[Egnever]

98. LOL

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&rlz=1CAACAG_enUS605US605&ion=1&espv=2&es_th=1&ie=UTF-8#tbm=nws&q=ISIS

Take your pick.

Your turn.

Show me one credible source questioning that the acts being reported are false.

[Caretha]

100. That was not very good

I went to your link.

The first "google" search that was pulled up is a picture of a studio ISIS beheading done in front of a green screen. Sorely lacking in any photo-shopping expertise.

That is not to say, that these mofos aren't doing what they claim to be doing, but they definitely need some expertise photo-shopping help.

Tell me, as an expert in photo-shop, what would your advise be to make this more realistic?

[Egnever]

102. Right so you admit your complete failure to post one credible source

There are hundreds of links in that google search find just one that supports the silliness you are pushing here.

[Caretha]

104. Scuse me?

If I remember this conversation correctly, it was up to you to publish a "credible source" that disproved me. Go ahead.

[Egnever]

105. Posted hundreds

since you refuse to post even one that supports your view(we both know it is because there isn't one) How about you shorten this madness by naming a source you think is credible. I am certainly not going to go any further on this crazy train without it as i already posted a link to hundreds of news articles on ISIS from hundreds of different sources.

I am pretty sure this has reached it's end as you clearly cant cite a single source to support your wild claims that this is all a big plot made up by america just so we can get back into Iraq.

So baring either a single source from you or a choice of one you would consider credible I will leave you to the tin foil. Lots of hats to make so little time.

[Caretha]

108. Dear Egnever

I challenged you from the beginning to take your blinders off. I realize that was a very uncomfortable thing for you to do. And I realize, you inability to do it. But let's not confuse the line of conversation we had so as to distract those who may not have been following as closely as you & I.

I asked you to post credible sources to disprove me first. You could not, so then you pretended that you had asked me to refute your sources first, and you posted the propaganda crap stuff, which was silly and actually showed that you had no credible sources.
(Egnever, those are the lamest sources I believe I have ever seen.)

That does not excuse you from your assignment that you agreed to take on. Grow a pair Egnever, prove to me your sources are credible.

[Egnever]

110. Weeee

The link was to a google search of the word ISIS nothing more and there are literally thousands of sources of information on the freak show this group is including all the different regions they are targeting.

You seem to be stuck back in vietnam or the bush era I am not sure which either way it is irelevant to ISIS and what they are and what they are doing.

You were not prescient during the run up to the Iraq war I was here as well at the time and saw all the CREDIBLE sources posted proving what bush was selling was false. I was out in the streets protesting the invasion before it happened because the evidence was clear.

Sadly you seem to want to project those experiences onto this one despite not having one single source to back up your feelings. You even go so far as to assign all knowing godlike powers to the NSA claiming they could just scrub the internet of all the ISIS videos with clearly no understanding of what you are talking about.

I don't pretend to know what you have gone through to send you on this conspiracy fantasy but a small part of me does understand the desire to want to disbelieve there are people as ruthless and barbaric as ISIS is. I also understand the mistrust of government after what we went through with dimson.

None of that changes the fact that ISIS is not a boogy man made up to make our corporations richer there is too much video too many eyewitness accounts too many dead bodies and too many countries condemning them and lining up against them.

It's your world and your delusion to live in and if you chose to continue to do so I will just have to leave you to it while thanking my lucky stars there are more serious people in leadership addressing the ISIS situation.

I am quite sure these people will be glad when you inform them they are just pretending to mourn their families

http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsContent/1/64/122949/Egypt/Politics-/Families-of-Egyptian-hostages-in-Libya-urge-action.aspx

[Aerows]

117. We pour buckets of money into

the region in foreign aid. Are you aware of how much we send to Egypt?

And when it comes down to brass tacks, suddenly "oh we can't defend ourselves, boo hoo".

Are you telling me that KSA, Turkey and Qatar lack funds and armies of their own?

Please excuse me while I call bullshit and question why you are championing the US to get involved in what could easily be solved by the local parties most threatened.

I DARE you to explain why. Heh, I DEFY you to justify involvement with US lives and US tax payer dollars, when the people that live there ... are already there and need to tend to their own backyard. They don't need a free gardening service that will cost us in loved ones and tax dollars.

[Fumesucker]

75. Knowing what someone is doing is not the same thing as knowing who they are and why they do..

We know they say things but we don't know if those things are completely true or not.. What reason would you have to think that people who will burn others to death in a cage among other horrible things are incapable of being deceptive?

[Egnever]

78. Not sure what you are implying here.

Are you implying this is some sort of covert US operation to destabilize the region on purpose by perpetrating the most heinous acts seen in my lifetime?

[Fumesucker]

85. ISIS is really trying hard to get attention and piss people off

Pissed off people tend not to think as clearly as calm ones.

Bin Laden successfully pissed off America and got a lot of attention..

How did that work out for us? Did we do a bunch of smart things?

Osama may be dead but his dream seems to be moving forward.

All war is deception, you try to appear weak where you are strong, strong where you are weak.

[Caretha]

97. No I think the most heinous

acts in my lifetime were the 50K plus American men & women who died in the Viet Nam war.

Try taking that on the chin Egnever.

I did! And it was real up close & personal, but you just carry on if you think you can handle more of that shit and swallow all the swill you want. Don't forget to sign up, or at least sign up your sons, daughters & nephews if you are too old.

[ancianita]

79. Fair points. Their whole financing history is the something we don't know about.

How they've been able to build sophisticated studios to upload their videos and send their twitter messages to Muslims worldwide.

How they've financed sophisticated enough weapons arsenals to take major Iraqi cities.

And yet their belief system is consistent with their beheadings, enslavements, etc.

[Caretha]

89. The "beheadings" etc.

are distractions. It forces you to look, so you won't look elsewhere.

You see, I lived through the Tonkin Bay lie...

The official story was that North Vietnamese torpedo boats launched an "unprovoked attack" against a U.S. destroyer on "routine patrol" in the Tonkin Gulf on Aug. 2 — and that North Vietnamese PT boats followed up with a "deliberate attack" on a pair of U.S. ships two days later.

The only way at that time in history that I knew it was a lie, was that my friends, lovers, brothers, fathers & sisters who were serving in VN told me that it was a lie. The US media sold the lie to the rest of the public. Who was I to believe? The ones that were there? Sweating blood, tears & dying?

Some lessons you never forget. I was here at the beginning of DU. Again, I was just a little ol' Texas Gal fighting the same old fight...the lies the media told about how Iraq had Weapons of Mass Destruction and they would be sending drones any day now to take my stuff. When I scoffed at that ridiculousness, I was laughed at, and told I was tinfoil crazy when I said, "no, this is a lie".

We are in the midst of the Resource Wars, and the corporations are using the American people to fund their takeovers. I was right then, and sadly, I'm right now. There is nothing I can do about it, but I do not mind the "slings and arrows". What difference does it make.

They do not listen, they do not know how

[ancianita]

101. I think everyone is restrained about ISIS for good reasons. Then there's this...

...Mr. We Know Them Intimately...

[Caretha]

103. One of the most evil

people that we narrowly missed electing as President of the US. Just think, he also wanted to inflict on us Sarah Palin as the V-President. I trust him as far as I could throw her stupid ass.

Just a reminder, he was also deeply, and heavily involved in the Savings & Loan crisis. I just keep thinking, oh thanks! we got the Bank crisis instead.

As an aside, the real VN veterans I knew, said he was a fuckin' sell out and many good men died because of his pansy ass.

[LanternWaste]

127. the largest navy in the world, the best trained professional army, an unrivaled global communication

With the largest navy in the world, the best trained professional army, an unrivaled global communications system, and someone has the idiocy to tell me the British lost to some unsophisticated colonials...?

No, something else must have happened, and both the Brits and the Colonists were in on it-- believe nothing that we see...

[malaise]

25. +1,000

and it isn't as if they haven't lied before

[Egnever]

28. Seriously?

The put out their own videos. They are easy to find on the internet. Doesn't take too many of them to figure out what these clowns are all about.

[HereSince1628]

39. Yet, they hide. They don't REALLY buy into it as zealots.

They are getting some reward that depends on remaining anonymous.

That implies their reward isn't as righteous as it is suggested to be.

[stevenleser]

23. If anything. ISIS are the imperialists here. They seek to create a large empire under

Their control and govern it via/under religio-fascism.

We know for sure they want to take over Syria, Iraq, Egypt and Libya. Anyone convinced they would stop there? If they achieved that? I'm not.

[Caretha]

72. The only ones I know of

who have declared they want to take over Syria, Iraq, Egypt & Libya, was the PNAC, but go ahead and pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. It's so much cozier that way Steve "leser"

[stevenleser]

120. No, the only ones who have declared that who are in charge of their group now

Are ISIS.

PNAC are not in front of the curtain, or behind the curtain.

[Comrade Grumpy]

4. You got alerted on for this. It failed, 6-1.

I voted to let it stand, but it's still a silly post.

[Hissyspit]

111. That's too bad.

[Avalux]

5. Who the fuck is defending ISIS here? You'd better show an example if you're going to say that.

The issue a lot of people have, me included, is the beating of war drums, and the incessant cheerleading by the 'news'. I'm sick of having it rammed down our throats.

[Aerows]

13. If you aren't foaming at the mouth

to send our loved ones and our tax dollars to fight ISIS while we have people freezing to death on the streets here in the US, you are a defender of ISIS, apparently.

[malaise]

29. Thread winner

[Aerows]

77. Thanks, Malaise. The truth needs to be spoken

amidst all of this rah rah horseshit.

[Marr]

60. +1, which is why I, and I think a lot of other liberals, are hesitant to make

sweeping statements like, 'we must stop ISIS'.

[TheKentuckian]

114. Fucking A, right. We're cutting food stamps and SSI but WE GOT TO DO SOMETHING!1!11

[Kingofalldems]

46. Good question. Hit and run.

[Long Drive]

141. His MO

Kind of like stale bread, it has uses but none of them are fresh.

[Renew Deal]

73. Here is one post

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6242500

If that thread was posted prior to ISIS being a thing or if Iraq currently had an invasion force that would be one thing. But in the current context this appears to be a defense of ISIS.

[Bonhomme Richard]

7. The new vogue is new to me. n/t

[sadoldgirl]

9. Does anyone know how many

Isis members are former Iraq Sunni military men?

I heard that a lot of them are. In that case, are they Iraqis
coming for revenge?

[LeftyMom]

26. And rebranding the sectarian civil war

they've been fighting on and off since about ten minutes after Muhammad died.

But now they have a YouTube account and a janky flag so somehow we're supposed to give a shit.

[hrmjustin]

11. Killing prisoners of war is a war crime I believe.

ISIS is evil.

[Aerows]

12. The new vogue is the same as the old vogue

Quit sucking us dry of tax dollars and the blood of our family and friends while there are people that are already there that are too lazy and greedy to step up the plate themselves.

You want to fight ISIS? Fine, buy a ticket. You want an army to fight ISIS? Oh look. KSA has PLENTY of money and people of age to fight.

We have people fucking freezing to death on the street in our country at a rate worse than any terrorist attack, and you want us to throw away our loved ones and our tax dollars in a fight we don't need to be involved in?

[Igel]

14. I try to understand them, first.

Only then do I denounce them as vile barbarians from the Middle Ages that make me embarrassed to be of the same genus, not even of the same species.

I don't quite understand them. On the other hand, on the basis of my inadequate understanding I make far more accurate predictions than many who claim great depth of understanding and empathy.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

19. Who's defending them?

[Kingofalldems]

30. No one.

[LeftyMom]

32. Absolutely nobody.

But the war hawk crowd always thinks any statement with context or nuance is sniveling cowardice. Only bumper sticker platitudes are permitted.

You're with 'em or you're with the turrurists, basically.

[Kingofalldems]

33. Looks like you don't like DU.

Based on this and many other posts I have noticed.


So that begs the question.
What is it about DU that you like?

[seveneyes]

36. Not even the players of ISIS believe their own proclamations

They are simply cutthroat abusers of human flesh and spirit. There should be no safe haven for such cruel and inhuman wastes of life.

[Man from Pickens]

40. Pyrostrawmania

am horrified at how you set that poor caged strawman on fire for the world to see its agonizing end

[alphafemale]

49. I think if they did land in Italy they would be met with people not raised to cower from infancy

I would love to see some Isis members pissing their pants in fear before justice was dealt.

[Caretha]

55. So how are they going to get to Italy

With their Air Force? With their super duper navy?

[alphafemale]

68. There is that also. But even if they hijacked a ship.

I doubt it would even make it to shore.

And even if it did.

Bring it fuckers.

You are so fucking dead.

[dissentient]

51. Oh please. Next you are going to tell me duers are in league with ISIS

No one is defending ISIS.

[riderinthestorm]

56. Hit and run posting. Fuggedaboutit nt

[cwydro]

61. Please please

tell me that no one is defending these savage creatures here on DU>

[ScreamingMeemie]

65. No one is.

It's the "taking it to the extremes" thing that happens sometimes when people disagree.

I don't think it is smart for the U.S. to devote people, time and blood to an unwinnable war (at least, not in this way) IF ISIS ends up being something more than the small band of psychotic wannabe badasses that I think they are. That conflates to supporting ISIS apparently.

[cwydro]

69. OK.

I appreciate the clarification.

I've avoided most of those threads.

[Throd]

88. Nobody is defending ISIS, but some are engaging in "whataboutism"

[Kingofalldems]

66. Don't like DUers much?

Don't seem to like Biden either: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6239341

Or JFK: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6209515

[hunter]

67. Plenty of "psychotic murderers" in this world.

Sad, isn't it?

Them that piss me off most are those who would starve and deny appropriate education and medical care to our own U.S.A. children.

Islamic State is just one among many sociopathic and fundamentalist religious shitstorms of this world.

There are "Christian" sects I find as distasteful.

The Protestant vs. Catholic religious warfare in my own family didn't die until my grandparents and all their siblings did.

You wouldn't have enjoyed my family religious holidays any more than I did as a kid.

Christmas and Easter were family wartimes.

[kpete]

71. re: beheadings:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/saudi-arabia-claims-difference-is-clear-between-state-sanctioned-executions-and-isis-beheadings-10019780.html

[workinclasszero]

92. No kidding ISIS are the new nazis

People don't want to get involved in endless wars, I totally agree. But these animals are not giving anyone a choice.

They will murder people in the most horrific ways possible. Burying children alive, crucifying them also...children!! Sawing totally innocent peoples heads off with knifes, I mean fuck me what does it take to realize these bloody fucking scum of the earth pigs have to be stopped?

Hey if Bush/Cheney-Vader would not have invaded Iraq to enrich the MIC this shit probably wouldn't be happening, but the bastards did and it is.

The world set back and watched Imperial Japan and Nazi rise to power while slaughtering millions in the gas ovens and committing other atrocities like the Rape of Nanking.

Should we repeat that shame again?

UN: ISIS Beheading Children, Burying Them Alive
February 5, 2015 12:26 PM

http://washington.cbslocal.com/2015/02/05/un-isis-beheading-children-burying-them-alive/

After ISIS slaughters Christians, an Egyptian village mourns its sons

By Ian Lee and Jethro Mullen, CNN

Updated 8:55 AM ET, Wed February 18, 2015

http://www.cnn.com/2015/02/18/middleeast/egypt-christians-grieving-village/

[mwrguy]

119. Have they dumped babies out of incubators yet?

Once they cross that line then we have to invade.

[stevenleser]

144. Is there any point at which you will get tired trotting out that tired old meme?

Every situation is different and should be evaluated as such.

[Comrade Grumpy]

146. Once burned...

Or twice burned...

Or burned many times...

When governments repeatedly lie, we tend to be a bit skeptical.

That said, I don't think there's anything fake about ISIS or its atrocities.

[JonLP24]

122. Shia militias have been ethnically cleansing neighborhoods for years

Assad has mass slaughtered civilians. They aren't the only Nazis, much less the new ones.

[stevenleser]

145. See Throds #88 above. Nt

[JonLP24]

147. Concern in Iraq grows over unregulated Shiite forces

?t=thumbnail_570

The popular mobilization forces have been widely controversial in Iraq since their inception in June 2014. Public opinion has focused on the legitimacy of these irregular forces, their activities and the possible illegal killings committed by them in the fight against the Islamic State (IS). In light of the dire need for these forces in the ongoing conflict on the one hand, and lapses in disciplined behavior among their ranks on the other, Iraqis remain conflicted about them.

Reports occasionally appear about violations and abuses by the mobilization forces on the battlefield and off it. At the same time, however, one cannot deny their contribution to hindering IS’ progress toward the central and southern areas of the country. In addition, the forces have also recently made offensive advances against IS, improving their reputation in the public's eye and in the Iraqi political arena.

The popular mobilization forces were formed after Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani issued a fatwa calling on all those able to take up arms and volunteer in the security forces in the fight against IS. The forces were to fall under the umbrella of the state’s security services and within its legal frameworks and practices. In the course of events, however, some of these groups embarked on a different path, operating independently, outside judicial and governmental monitoring and supervision, somewhat along the lines of Iran’s Basij, which were founded in 1979 at the directive of Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini.

One thing that distinguishes Iraq's popular mobilization forces from its army units is their deep willingness to fight and to sacrifice to achieve military objectives against the enemy. They do not, however, have the professional and military training of the official forces and are not being held accountable in instances of violations.

Read more: http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2015/02/iraq-popular-mobilization-crimes-government-control.html#ixzz3SQPaRWu6

[ohnoyoudidnt]

94. I haven't seen anyone here defending their actions, provide link if I missed it, please.

Not wanting to get involved in another ground war and defending the actions of ISIS are two very different things. Your OP indicates that you are certain that is the vogue here, so please direct me to the posts.

[Dreamer Tatum]

106. Every time someone posts some bullshit about what Christians did 1000 years ago

it is a defense of ISIS. Yes, it fucking well is too.

Anytime someone posts that "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter," that is a defense of ISIS. Yes, it fucking is.

And I'm tired of it.

[kwassa]

107. No. It is possible Christians did horrible things more recently, and ISIS does horrible things, too.

ISIS is the huge threat because they are crazy and murderous and have taken over a huge hunk of territory. They need to be vanquished. They are a very current threat, particularly with the potential for terrorism.

In our not-too-distant past, the Ku Klux Klan was burning crosses on peoples lawns. All of these people represented themselves as Christians.

The Tuskegee Institute has recorded 3,446 blacks and 1,297 whites being lynched between 1882 and 1968, with the annual peak occurring in the 1890s, at a time of economic stress in the South and political suppression.[3] A five year study published by the Equal Justice Initiative in 2015 found that nearly 4,000 black men, women and children were lynched in the Southern states alone between 1877 and 1950.[4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynching_in_the_United_States

[ohnoyoudidnt]

112. Acknowledging that people have committed atrocities in the name of Christianity does not defenend

atrocities committed in the name of Islam. They were both equally wrong. Do you think Obama was defending ISIS when he made the comparison?

[Dreamer Tatum]

115. When Dr Tiller was murdered, how many "yes, but look what this Muslim did" posts were there?

I will spare you the research: zero.

[ohnoyoudidnt]

95. Is this a hit and run post? I see you haven't replied to a single response. nt

[Hissyspit]

113. Yeah, it's a war crime.

Pretty much nothing else in your OP is true apparently.

[Gormy Cuss]

116. ISIS isn't as dangerous as Planned Parenthood

http://www.isaaclatterell.com/2015/02/17/planned-parenthood-worse-than-isis-and-lying-about-it/

[Cali_Democrat]

118. Look, I know you're more conservative than most DUers....

I think even you would acknowledge that.

But can you link to a post where a DUer defended ISIS?

I haven't seen it.

[JonLP24]

121. They are war criminals

So are most of the groups in these conflicts.

Since a lot of the fighting of Syria’s conflict takes place in heavily populated towns and urban areas, sniper kill zones often dissect neighborhoods and fighters dig in and embed among the civilian population. Effectively, this makes human shields of their inhabitants, and inevitably ensures they suffer disproportionately when those entrenched combatants start to fight and shell each other’s positions. This is made worse by the very nature of this type of urban warfare, which usually produces deadly stalemates, or only excruciatingly slow advances at terribly high cost. This callousness and indifference to the suffering of Syrians by those fighting in their name the Syrian regime and the rebel and jihadist groups opposing it has been a central and dominant theme throughout this messy and brutal war.

Another disturbing aspect in which civilians are caught up in the war is through the heavy indiscriminate bombing of their neighborhoods by the infamous “barrel bombs” dropped by regime helicopters from high altitude on rebel-held areas, the main purpose being to clear out the residents and make the areas easier to capture. Needless to say, the results of such bombing campaigns are catastrophic. This sometimes goes in tandem with crippling sieges that can last for months or even years, causing untold misery and suffering for the people trapped inside, who have to not only contend with a possible quick death from above but also a slow agonizing death from starvation and poverty.

Being in an area that one of the warring camps controls does not necessarily delineate support for that camp, although it is matter-of-factly portrayed as such by the propaganda machine of the other side, seeking to justify its excessive brutality. This divisive “us against them” is a rather peculiar aspect of this conflict, even if not surprising. A terrified populace can easily be polarized against their former friends and neighbors, especially when told that they are now the enemy, with corroboration of that coming in the form of deadly shells and bombs fired from their areas. We have experienced this first hand in Aleppo city, for instance, where rebels shell neighborhoods in the west (the regime-controlled part) on a daily basis, killing and wounding many people, with the justification being that anyone still living there must be “shabiha,” a derogatory term for a regime loyalist.

Thus, the warring camps in Syria seek to consolidate support among “our civilians” while demonizing “their civilians,” which makes mass slaughter of people more palatable and acceptable. In fact, in the tit-for-tat shelling of Damascus city and eastern Ghouta earlier this month, there were calls to wipe Douma out, and everyone in it, by people in Damascus, while those in Ghouta cheered with glee every time rockets were fired into the capital. Of course these sentiments are not universally shared or accepted, but illustrate how quickly desensitized and dehumanized people living through the horrors of war can become. The end result, though, was equally as grotesque as those attitudes, with many deaths and injuries in Damascus, and a disproportionate number of people killed in Ghouta, too, with the unsettling prospect of this mutual slaughter now becoming the new norm as both sides continue to threaten and escalate their rhetoric.

http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2015/02/syria-war-civilian-casualties-regime-opposition-jihadists.html#ixzz3S3hNhBUh

[CJCRANE]

123. ISIS *ARE* the interlopers.

What is their real origin?

Now that's the 6 billion dollar question.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

129. Who is really financing them?

[stevenleser]

143. They are financing themselves via kidnapping for ransom and selling stolen oil. Nt

[JonLP24]

149. Wealthy Arabian Peninsula investors

Tit-for-tat extortion kidnapping has been going on years back into the early years of the Iraq war so it wouldn't by itself explain why they are so well financed, in addition to Iran-backed Shia militias.

<snip>
Royal Donors in the Gulf

Grossing as much as $40 million or more over the past two years, ISIS has accepted funding from government or private sources in the oil-rich nations of Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Kuwait—and a large network of private donors, including Persian Gulf royalty, businessmen and wealthy families.

<snip>

Lori Plotkin Boghardt, a fellow in Gulf politics at the Washington Institute for Near East Policy in Washington, D.C., tells Newsweek that private donors across the Persian Gulf are continuing to funnel money to ISIS. “Qatar and Kuwait continue to stick out as two trouble spots when it comes to counterterrorist financing enforcement,” she said. Continued financial sanctions imposed on Kuwait and Qatar terrorist financiers by the U.S. Treasury “suggest the U.S. government continues to be concerned about spotty, to say the least, Kuwaiti and Qatari enforcement of their counterterrorist financing laws.”

<snip>

Second, Qatar and Kuwait are loath to limit the activities of highly influential ISIS donors due to the political fallout such intervention may cause. In Kuwait, a family of parliamentarians—including Kuwaiti member of parliament Mohammed Hayef al-Mutairi—has raised funds for jihadist groups with direct ties to ISIS. “Cracking down on some ISIS financiers is politically complicated for these countries’ leaderships,” Boghardt says.

<snip>

Fake Humanitarian Aid

These donations, Newsweek has learned, are also routinely laundered through unregistered charities in the form of “humanitarian aid,” with terrorists coordinating geographical drop-off points for payments using cellphone applications such as WhatsApp and Kik. Not only can WhatsApp be used around the world but, crucially, it incorporates a GPS mapping tool that makes it easier for terrorists to communicate their exact locations to each other. Kik offers the added benefit of allowing terrorists to register a username without providing a phone number that could identify them. Affiliated ISIS Twitter accounts openly publish their Kik usernames.

http://www.newsweek.com/2014/11/14/how-does-isis-fund-its-reign-terror-282607.html

[arcane1]

126. Another day, another dishonest slam at DUers over made-up bullshit.

THAT is the "new vogue".


Will it ever end?

[Waiting For Everyman]

128. Looks that way to me too, DT.

And then the part I love, when people say "where did we ever say that? straw man! straw man!" That's about as dishonest and selectively blind as it can get. Thread after thread of people up and down the whole thing making various excuses for ISIS, along with posts saying, "show me an example where anyone did that". Sure.

I gotta believe that if they didn't notice themselves excusing ISIS, and they didn't notice others in the same thread doing it too, and other threads, then they sure don't stand any better chance of seeing it if I or anyone else give them links.

What I wonder is, if they want to excuse ISIS why don't they just say that and own it? Why bother pretending to be indignant when we notice that's what it is? What's with the little denial word games?

[Dreamer Tatum]

132. I say again: when Dr Tiller was murdered, I never saw one post comment about Muslims. nt

[Waiting For Everyman]

134. Me either.

The one-sided reasoning shows how thick the prejudices are.

[jwirr]

130. What defense?

[ileus]

148. To many they are "the enemy of my enemy"