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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWhy aren't women's reproductive rights being as viscerally supported as LGBT rights?
Indiana is being seen as a sort of tipping point for LGBT rights...even the conservatives are denying they're being bigots, or trying to crush those rights. No one is saying similar things about women's rights. Why is that? Too many mainstream Dems seem totally on the defensive about the issue. It obviously isn't that way about LGBT issues--which is fine by me, of course...but I find it deeply depressing. If the anti-choicers get their way, this country will become a nightmare. Why the hell can't we articulate this obvious point in a way that resonates?
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jberryhill
(62,444 posts)...often concentrates on what is current in the headlines at any particular moment.
This particular piece of legislation in Indiana has generated quite a bit of discussion on the topic of discrimination against one particular group, but DU does certainly get fired up when there are developments relating to a number of issues.
antigone382
(3,682 posts)The basics: She went to the hospital after experiencing a miscarriage/stillbirth. She was in a bad situation, had disposed of the fetus, and initially denied being pregnant to doctors. Prosecution used a discredited "float test" as evidence the fetus was alive, although it is almost certain the fetus died seconds after birth. They also used a handful of text messages she sent about ordering some Chinese abortion drugs, although no such drugs were found in her system.
Twenty years. For a miscarriage, and scant evidence that at some point in desperation she considered self-abortion. As a woman this is terrifying to me.
G_j
(40,372 posts)antigone382
(3,682 posts)Feel free to rec and kick it at your leisure
fredamae
(4,458 posts)"separation" of Rights...
Rights are Rights....
Whether it's for Voters, Women, LGBT, Medical Cannabis participants, Disabled, Elderly, Minority, Unions, Fair Wages and so on...
"They" have separated us, in some cases turned us Against one another....and we're all really fighting for the Same thing. Our Personal and Civil Rights.
RKP5637
(67,112 posts)
still_one
(92,435 posts)Last edited Wed Apr 1, 2015, 11:31 AM - Edit history (1)
legislation against women, it is always in major threads.
There are all kinds of threads that talk about the republican's war against women.
Sheldon Cooper
(3,724 posts)But why don't we have huge corporations, like Apple, Walmart, etc. coming out against the draconian anti-woman laws that are constantly springing up? Large corporations employ women, women buy their products, and yet they remain mostly silent.
Why is that?
smokey nj
(43,853 posts)Check out this recent thread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025879978#post51
Sheldon Cooper
(3,724 posts)
hughee99
(16,113 posts)Although there are certainly threads that might.
smokey nj
(43,853 posts)hughee99
(16,113 posts)No one in that thread argued that abortion was murder, just that people in the pro-life movement may believe it to be so. No one argued that they agreed with that belief.
Suggesting that the "DU is mushy" and citing as evidence that one person on one thread speculated about the motivations of the pro-life movement absolutely fails to make your point.
smokey nj
(43,853 posts)hughee99
(16,113 posts)right to choose. I have no doubt that such posts exist on the DU, but having now gone through 2 threads, have significant doubts about you're ability to accurately recognize them.
You called out the generic "DUer" for not being supportive enough and I stuck up for that same generic DUer, but after 2 threads worth of reading (your original one and the first one above), I've realized I'm wasting my time defending no one specific against someone who clearly has a different definition of "support" than I do.
smokey nj
(43,853 posts)hughee99
(16,113 posts)smokey nj
(43,853 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)i had a choice of 6 hours trip to dallas, and spend two day so the state could shame the woman, properly. or drive out of state.
Zorra
(27,670 posts)LGBT for discrimination.
Because very soon the Supreme Court of the United States will be arguing a monumental case regarding legal same sex marriage, a right that all people clearly have under the Constitution, but don't have because hateful RW religious people are illegally preventing them from doing so.
I can't fight a war on two fronts. When the RW religious wackos are defeated on LGBT issues, I can use my energy to fight them on reproductive rights again.
If you don't fight off the immediate blatant hostile attacks, you will totally lose the war.
Roe v Wade, 1973
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roe_v._Wade
One problem women have that LGBT don't is that there are too many women with Stockholm Syndrome who think men are smarter than they are and who they allow men to take away their rights. These women drive me nuts. They actively fight against women having equal rights.
LGBT are completely united in their opposition to church control of their lives, and church control of state.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)And aside from restricting abortion, these laws will literally kill women because they can't get proper medical care.
RKP5637
(67,112 posts)They're actually making it worse by driving out the only provider of basic gynecological care for many women.
So not just dying from coat hanger abortions, but dying from all sorts of diseases. And difficulty getting effective birth control.
RKP5637
(67,112 posts)as they like to torture women as best they can. They say it's in the name of god, Jesus, religion or whatever, but in terms if psychodynamics, I suspect something else is going on in their heads probably latent to their perception of what they are doing.
ScreamingMeemie
(68,918 posts)the fact that 3% of women get abortion in other clinics that having nothing to do with clinics shutting down. Cervical cancer screening centers are being shut down all the while Texas isn't expanding Medicaid. They basically want us dead. I told my daughter the other day that I expect them to sell me to the glue factory pretty soon, seeing as I'm a widow and my son is almost 18.
Zorra
(27,670 posts)for women's equality.
Straight white men have the most clout in our society
You can start, or continue, by donating here:
http://www.naral.org/
I'll be out most of the day carrying a rainbow sign in that says.
"We The People Means Everyone"
RKP5637
(67,112 posts)who think men are smarter than they are and who they allow men to take away their rights."
When I was young there seemed to be a very strong women's right movement, but now I don't see that as much. I'm consistently stunned that in the 21st century, women must still fight for equal rights.
appalachiablue
(41,182 posts)No Stockholm Syndrome here btw. This is all part of the radical, ultraconservative right's rollback and the revival of fascism which brings sexism, misogyny, male dominance, bigotry, corporate rule, money worship, women as inferior and less valued beings, and more. It's very concerning. That women are not as unified as LGBT groups now has been said here for what it's worth.
RKP5637
(67,112 posts)everyone needs to join together. IMO the democratic party does not do a very good job of this.
appalachiablue
(41,182 posts)the GOP destruction on many levels- human rights, employment, income inequality, voting rights, police brutality, prison incarceration and a list that's growing. Plenty of Dems. do seem to be working with passage of the TPP however, like fmr. Gov. Deval Patrick of MA, and engaged in dissolving essential programs and supports like Social Security, labor protections and public schools in conjunction with wealthy business elites like Pete Peterson and others on Wall Street. Perhaps this will start to change, I sincerely hope so. There are small signs that it will.
cali
(114,904 posts)that target women's reproductive rights than target the LGBT community. Both are important but whereas the LGBT community has been making great strides, women's rights have been going STEADILY backward.
Zorra
(27,670 posts)making desperately needed progress. We're all behind women's equality. Some of us have been struggling for years for it.
Please don't piss on the fact that LGBT are making gains when supporting other struggles. It is completely unnecessary. You can make a pitch for women's equality without complaining about people supporting LGBT struggles
You can start by donating here:
http://www.naral.org/
Women need to unite behind this the choice movement. Maybe you can convince christofascist women to protect their own rights. I have been completely unsuccessful at this so far.
By all means, sign me up for any action you initiate; I'm kind of busy right now trying to save my freedom to purchase medication and not be refused admittance to a hospital emergency room by some religious wacko.
on edit: I can't respond to any reply to this post until tonight because I will be out on the street advocating for equality.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Part of our "Republican-lite" portfolio.
As a result, you'll see lots of rage against racism and homophobia, and rage against non-abortion-related sexism. But abortion is icky so that only gets the occasional platitude.
cali
(114,904 posts)
enough
(13,263 posts)Which by definition puts it at the back of the bus. (Or under it.)
Johonny
(20,898 posts)I think the difference is "gay" issues have more press time/TV time/facebook/ general acceptance and women's issues dealing with health get basically none. How can you deny the press didn't really go all out to explain to the public what a forced ultrasound means, the media allows the abortion opponents and their fake stories and facts to dominate the news coverage of abortion. It is basically shown as a given that is MORE religious to hate women. Why women's civil rights have lagged other issues that really have had significant blow back is a little unclear. The icky factor does seem... to be part of it. No one dare mention lady parts on facebook, TV or the press. Will it happen? I think your seeing it on the social media so possibly. You'd think 50% of the population would be able to push this issue, but that might be the problem. Blacks and gays are a clear minority while many don't see women as a minority even though be the sociology definition they clearly are.
salin
(48,955 posts)I think if anything - there will be lessons to be learned from this historic debacle here in Indiana... and perhaps the tidal wave will continue to grow and keep stripping away the facades on these fanatical laws. I think that they way this erupted (in a matter of days - attenuated by Gov Dense's tv appearance) that many people who do not tend to pay much attention actually looked as it was replayed and replayed.
I have had numerous folks who know I follow politics - ask - if this is just like 20 other laws? Not so much to defend - but to ask for clarification as to how it is different. And wow - they are responsive and a bit aghast. The big thing was how huge the economic impact suddenly appeared - and that got more attention. I would guess millions of such conversations inside as well as outside of Indiana have occurred in the last week. How amazing is that?
So maybe the time to keep to get public attention to the other theocratic horror shows (esp. reproductive rights - which is very near and dear to my heart) is in the wake of this event - used as a ripple from this storm - a moment when folks who normally don't pay that much attention - are paying attention and open to conversation.
This is the first HUGE spontaneous fiasco that I have seen in this state. And the sentiment is overwhelmingly opposed to the state house and gov - and doesn't by the "no intent for discrimination." But it wasn't planned, or orchestrated. So it isn't an either or - it is how do we use this tsunami of attention/passion and clear-eyed focus of so much of our fellow citizens who normally walk on by?
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)weeks ago, when DUers were pushing the 'civil rights don't matter' theme:
"So long as LGBT rights were a means of dividing the working class, conservatives resisted them seriously – but when they were no longer divisive, the resistance to them vanished like morning mist. A key advantage of these strategic issues is that the billionaire class has no economic interest in either side, and so pays no cost for supporting or opposing them."
Note that March 22, Straight folks were claiming conservative resistance to LGBT rights had vanished like the morning mist. Now, the theme has changed to 'people talk about it too much'.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026398626
cali
(114,904 posts)but we are chagrined that laws oppressing women vis a vis reproductive rights are passed HUNDREDS of times a year. Yes, HUNDREDS. and with little acknowledgement.
when it comes to DU, your claim is bullshit.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)A couple of weeks ago, DU was saying 'all conservative opposition to LGBT rights has vanished' and i responded. Now the posts are 'such strong reaction to all of this opposition to LGBT rights' and I respond to those too.
DU responds to LGBT issues in many ways. The message has to hold. Just don't stop. Ever. And never make enemies out of allies until your natural cohort is with you in majority. It's good that you are doing issue posts again. I encourage that.
I live in Oregon. We don't restrict choice here. But you tell me nothing I don't know, and typing in caps does not change that. Just like telling me that all Conservative opposition to LGBT rights has vanished like the morning mist does not change what I am saying.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)all over for all our issues. i am thrilled and a part of the voice educating the way the indiana situation is playing out.
too important and huge for this not to happen.
we need more of this. we have an example how productive this is.
it should have been a given with what the supreme court passed last year, against womens health. that issue was just as big. it started going, and fizzled out.
what is happening in indiana is great. and i am going to continue educating, cause it is a clear, step by step of repugs extreme and hate.
i think the scott walker was another one of those moments and we did not win. but people tried.
kiva
(4,373 posts)don't fit the 'family values' mindset that America has adopted.
The issue that's been the focus of media attention is same-sex marriage - fits the family friendly image. Same sex parents? Yup, kids are part of the image.
Sure, the religious right and other conservative groups have been opposed to gay marriage and same sex parents, but as the OP has pointed out that is shifting, and that shift is not without precedence. Until somewhere in the 1970s, 1980s, 1990s - depending on where you lived - unmarried mothers were an abomination. Parents disowned them, men assumed they were easy, no one wanted their son to date or marry one.
Once abortion because legal and available a slow shift (hence the one to three decade delay) in American opinion began. Single mothers were the 'good girls', because the bad girls were all on the pill or had abortions. Churches began welcoming single mothers, and the stigma faded. Why? Because moms are family friendly.
Women's reproductive rights aren't viewed as 'family friendly' - not saying they aren't, but the perception exists. And America is all about moms and dads and kids - parental privilege is at an all-time high. Anything that threatens that image - limiting the number of children by birth control or abortion, choosing not to marry - is unacceptable.
My prediction is that 'family rights' will continue to grow and women who choose not to reproduce will continue to be criticized and diminished and remain the target of legislation.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)kiva
(4,373 posts)that's a part of 'family values'. If as individuals they don't, then they won't be embraced by the 'family friendly' set - it's all about fitting into a family-oriented society at this point.
I'm not saying it will happen tomorrow but, just as with single mothers, members of the LGBT community who fit the family mold will be accepted by society well before women's rights are considered a priority. I'm very happy for my LGBT friends, but want to join the OP and others in saying that a victory on one front does not mean the war has been won.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)MadDAsHell
(2,067 posts)...there were way more posters celebrating the election of a President with a different skin color than there were posters rallying against the fact that California voters had just violated the civil rights of a large segment of their population (Prop 8).
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)The GOP has framed the issue of womens' rights as solely the right to abort a fetus.
They pretend that pay inequality is a thing of the past or frame it as "womens' poor career choices".
They pretend that only sluts get raped. Easier that way because it lets men off the hook for the violence.
They pretend that only bad women are victims of any type of violence. Again, that lets us men off the hook for our behavior.
I agree with the post that said ALL rights are equally important. An injury to one IS an injury to all.
Even if most people do not understand that.
Prism
(5,815 posts)With something like LGBT rights, there are clear differences between older and younger demographic groups. Everyone knows the cultural trajectory there, and corporations and politicians realize they need to be on top of that if they want continued support for their brand. They're fighting for their own future relevance.
Abortion is trickier. Young people show the same divide other demographics do (with the exception of seniors who are more opposed than other groups). There's no expectation for a "win" there in the future that a corporation or politician will benefit from.
Support for reproductive rights peaked somewhat in the 90s and has fallen a little since. Until that begins to change, I doubt we're going to see CEOs going out of their way to alienate nearly half their current and future customers.
The real question is why Millenials aren't much different from their parents on the reproductive divide. Especially given the more sexually open culture they are inheriting.
qwlauren35
(6,150 posts)Pro-choice support has been tremendously eroded. It's actually quite frightening. As someone who grew up believing that abortion was the best solution to any unplanned/undesirable pregnancy, it crushes me how we push single motherhood onto FAMILIES ('cause grandma is gonna be doin' some major support!) for the sake of the "new life".
That is why I have always called myself pro-abortion. I have no qualms, no "sticky, icky" fears of the word. Abortion. Killing a fetus, whatever. If you think it's the right thing to do, you should be able to do it. With no obstacles.
kiva
(4,373 posts)among the less conservative group. I think all of us are happy that single mothers are no longer stigmatized but the result is that many people - not just religious conservatives - no longer actively support a woman's right to choose because they don't find it necessary.
No more slut-shaming? Cool, then all women who get pregnant can continue the pregnancy because everyone's on board with it. Let's ignore the fact that the pregnant woman might not want to continue the pregnancy for whatever reason. Social pressure is only one reason for choosing abortion, and we should continue to leave the choice up to the woman involved.
pnwmom
(109,000 posts)The anti-gay rights people have nothing but hateful images.
The anti-women, anti-abortion people have images of babies. And their idea that it's women's rights vs. babies' rights. It's harder to campaign over that -- not impossible, but harder.
yardwork
(61,712 posts)There it is.
Gay rights affect both men and women, of course. As a lesbian, I'm affected both by homophobia and by sexism. In my opinion, sexism is more deeply entrenched and less likely to go away as quickly and dramatically as homophobia has.
I also believe that we have to fight this in terms of human rights. Homophobic bigots are usually sexist bigots too.
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)groups, and see what the differences are. I contend the former is far more powerful. 40 yes ago, not so much.
lexington filly
(239 posts)a campaign on many levels. They managed to make it also an economic issue for companies. Corporations follow the money. We need that organization and focus on women's rights.
whathehell
(29,096 posts)viewed as more important and more valuable. 
kiva
(4,373 posts)
IcyPeas
(21,910 posts)and hopefully find love and support. women who have actually had abortions are still in the closet and won't come out for fear of being shamed or called names: sluts. Why else won't the millions of women who have had an abortion admit it? They have shamed us into silence. (IMHO)
Mike Nelson
(9,971 posts)...Roe vs. Wade passed. I don't think we should "compare" rights - it looks like one is being made "negative" over the other. Women's reproductive rights and LGBT rights (which include all genders) are both important.
Delphinus
(11,842 posts)
HappyMe
(20,277 posts)are supported here. The signing of that Indiana crap brought this issue to the forefront.
I don't think making these issues into a contest of sorts is helpful.
Jester Messiah
(4,711 posts)ieoeja
(9,748 posts)A few years ago a woman pharmicist in downtown Chicago made the mistake of refusing to sell birth control on religious grounds. This resulted in an immediate mini Upscale Female riot bad enough that Chicago Police had to close protect the pharmacy and escort the pharmicist to safety. In response, Gov Blagojevich (S-IL) immediately filed an emergency order requiring pharmicies to fill any and all legal prescriptions.
At the time I figured that showed why anti-abortion was going to run into trouble. With many women now sitting on corporate boards or in high executive positions, I expected them to economically choke any state that went too far with that shit.
But they haven't. I guess the problem is that this is too remote of them for them to notice? Had the aforementioned pharmacy been in Peoria IL, for instance, those women working in downtown Chicago wouldn't have been there.
justiceischeap
(14,040 posts)First and foremost is organization. The LGBTQ community is very, very organized. We had to because there was a period of almost 8 years that our government allowed a lot of gay men to die off from AIDS. So the community had to organize itself quite quickly and fairly well to get something done about that. Sadly, there was only real movement on that front when a male actors' wife contracted HIV from a blood transfusion. Then, suddenly, when people realized it wasn't a gay-specific disease was anything done about it.
Second is visibility. We made sure we were visible. I know I was out in the 80s and it was scary considering where I lived but I also couldn't hide it. I am what most would refer to as "butch." There was no closet for me to hide in. I even tried marrying a man briefly but that didn't work out so well...you know, 'cause I'm a lesbian. I can remember in the 80s and 90s people were begging famous people to come out because we needed that visibility and when stars started coming out, or at least not issuing denials, there became a small token of acceptance.
More to the point of visibility, I think Ellen DeGeneres (and Rosie O'Donnell) has had a huge impact on how the LGBTQ community is seen. Middle America LOVES them some Ellen and they can't imagine not allowing her her happiness. Of course, that wasn't so when her show was cancelled after coming out publicly in the 90's and it looked like her career could be over--then Anne Heche cheated on her and the tides turned for Ellen; everyone loved her again because they felt sorry for her and no too long after she became everyone's favorite dancing daytime host.
Fortunately we have the support of Hollywood and that has helped too. When shows started portraying LGBTQ people like we really are... you know, normal, that helped.
I don't know if any of this helps reproductive rights as a cause but I know the organization and visibility is lacking. Not many women are going to come out and talk about an abortion or their reproductive issues because then she will be slut-shamed for needing an abortion or birth control.
raven mad
(4,940 posts)kiva
(4,373 posts)JEB
(4,748 posts)The same people that assault the rights of Gays and women are assaulting voting rights, environmental oversight, science. Personally it may be to weariness. I've been arguing against this shit for most of my 63 years.
