Obama: Elizabeth Warren is "dishonest"

[MannyGoldstein]

Fabulous.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/wp/2015/04/24/obama-escalates-push-back-against-elizabeth-warren-and-other-trade-deal-critics/

On a conference call with a small group of reporters, President Obama significantly intensified his criticism of Elizabeth Warren and other opponents of the Trans-Pacific Partnership trade deal, accusing them of being “dishonest” about the secrecy around the TPP process, suggesting they were playing to their “fundraising” lists, and arguing flatly that they were using “misinformation that stirs up the base but doesn’t serve them well.”

The push-back, directed largely at fellow Democrats, shows just how sharply the trade deal is dividing the party — a schism that could only intensify in the days ahead.

On the call, Obama ran through a number of Democratic and liberal objections to the deal. He responded to complaints about the “fast track” process, and the existence of an Investor-State Dispute Settlement mechanism that critics say could benefit major corporations at the expense of local governments.

“The one that gets on my nerves the most is the notion that this is a ‘secret’ deal,” Obama said. “Every single one of the critics who I hear saying, ‘this is a secret deal,’ or send out emails to their fundraising base saying they’re working to prevent this secret deal, can walk over today and read the text of the agreement. There’s nothing secret about it.”

But they can't discuss it with us little people until the thing's been put on greased rails.

Bull@#$&, Mr. President. Make it public, today, if it's so great.

No doubt, America's Next President™ - a woman known as much for jumping into controversy as for FIGHTING and WINNING - will soon weigh in on this.

[peacebird]

1. Make the text public now if it is so great....!

[Maineman]

155. A bunch of regular citizens should go over and say, OK, we are here to read it.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

2. I am seriously upset with him with such a statement.

That is just simply beyond the pale. Nothing secret about it, my lily-white ass.

Elizabeth Warren is certainly one of the most honest, if not the top honest person, in DC right now.

[FiveGoodMen]

34. Obama was NEVER on our side.

Now he's chosen to show it.

[Enthusiast]

85. I guess it was bound to come out eventually.

[ozone_man]

195. It's taken a long time for some to realize that.

He was never anything more than a corporate shill, great at public speaking though.

[Dustlawyer]

297. He has given us everything that his Wall Street masters will let him!

He is on our side unless it conflicts with something they care about, Wall Street reform, prosecution for banking crimes, NSA spying, war, drilling, BP oil spill...

Voting for the lesser of two evils is still voting for the hand picked 1% candidate. Many DU members are as deluded as Fox News viewers when it comes to OBAMA and Hillary. Don't get me wrong, they do not always do bad, but is that what we call a win?

[Divernan]

71. I absolutely agree with you

and am encouraged by your opposition to the TPP because you are one of the most respected posters on DU.

[I hate liars]

113. Agreed, this is flat-out lying

I don't understand how Obama thinks he can get away with such obvious misdirection. American citizens have no visibility to what their "representatives" are voting for or against, in this case.

The consequences of voting yes for the TPA are unknowable. In what universe is that a good thing?

[sulphurdunn]

125. He thinks we're as stupid as republicans

[mimi85]

249. Bullshit

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

279. Just wow. Never saw this coming.

[marym625]

170. Brava Peggy!

I know that is not an easy place to get to. I could be wrong but what I have seen of your thoughts on the President, has been pretty consistently positive. You are a consistently positive person.

This is shameful. Just shameful

[CaliforniaPeggy]

176. Thank you, my dear marym625...

I have no problem criticizing him when he deserves it, and this is such a time.

I agree with you: this is just shameful.

[marym625]

181. I should have known

I guess I just have not seen enough of your posts.

I hope that the respect people have for you will cause those with blind faith to really look at this

[CaliforniaPeggy]

182. That is very kind of you. I am not a great thinker, but I always give my honest opinion.

[marym625]

187. Don't sell yourself short. And honesty is something need more of here.

Last edited Sat Apr 25, 2015, 08:47 PM - Edit history (1)

[CaliforniaPeggy]

190. ...

[Tommy2Tone]

202. Warren is no savior

She used this issue to fund raise. You are being duped by just another politician.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

206. Really? She's fund raising for what? She's not running.

The lady has ethics.

[Tommy2Tone]

231. This quote from a Huffington Post story

While Obama did not mention Warren by name, much of his commentary appeared to be directed at her. The two have already traded barbs on TPP this week. Obama said in a TV interview on Tuesday that Warren was "just wrong" on the issue. Warren responded by sending a fundraising email to her supporters warning that Obama's promises on the pact were hollow, since "people like you can't see the actual deal."

Just another politician.

[OrwellwasRight]

312. So how do you explain

Joseph Stiglitz and Robert Reich both heavily criticizing the TPP. They are not politicians and not "fundraising" for anyone. What about Jared Bernstein, who used to be in the Administration, saying the TPP should be defeated unless it has enforceable currency provisions in it? Who is he "fundraising" for?

http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/03/15/on-the-wrong-side-of-globalization/?_r=0
http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-reich-trumka-tpp-trade-fast-track-20150303-story.html
http://jaredbernsteinblog.com/no-negotiating-a-currency-chapter-in-the-tpp-will-not-cause-and-trade-war-or-cost-us-jobs/


And what's your interest here in keeping the deal a secret? Why are you not interested in seeing the text and being able to weigh in on it to be changed as citizens can do with any other piece of developing legislation? How does it make America a better democracy to keep these deals, which have the force of law, secret until it is too late to fix the damaging provisions in them? Would you have liked the Affordable Care Act to have been done that way? I sure wouldn't.

[Tommy2Tone]

316. Lots of folks are against the trade agreement

I was just attempting to show that Warren is a political animal like the rest. Some Dems think she walks on water.

[OrwellwasRight]

325. And, she is not "dishonest".

Her criticisms of both the ISDS mechanism and the secrecy of the TPP negotiations are shared by many: including top lawyers and Nobel prize wining economists.

The President does not have to call her "dishonest" because he has chosen to put his political capital behind an unpopular policy. Folks can disagree amicably without insulting the other side and reducing oneself to name calling. Criticize the policy, not the person.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

278. I'm with you...wtf?!

[liberal_at_heart]

5. [phone]

[cui bono]

52. Turns out he forgot the word 'least' in there somewhere. n/t

[Divernan]

74. Obama admin.has delayed/ignored FOIA requests more than any previous administration.

That is the what I've been hearing for years from a couple of well-respected investigative journalists.

[d_legendary1]

303. This administration is as transparent as limo tints

That pretty much explains TPP and all the other stuff he's been hiding.

[L0oniX]

314. Silly Manny! I have links to the TPP documents for all to see ...every fine detail of it...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/09/hell-froze-over-michigan_n_4568659.html

http://nation.time.com/2014/01/08/its-official-hell-has-frozen-over/

[HereSince1628]

4. Remember how she was being brought into the establishment to help it message???

Based on Obama's comment I think we know that attempt failed, badly.

[MannyGoldstein]

7. As long as she messaged what Jamie and Lloyd wanted, it would have been fine

But we Bay Staters don't do servile very well, for more than 240 years.

[morningfog]

6. Obama: "ad hominem attacks and misinformation that stirs up the base. . . I'm going to be pushing...

“I’m not adverse to continuing to engage with members of Congress or unions or anybody else in the progressive community about how we can make sure this is the strongest agreement possible,” Obama concluded. “But what I am adverse to is a bunch of ad hominem attacks and misinformation that stirs up the base but ultimately doesn’t serve them well. And I’m going to be pushing back very hard if I keep on hearing that.”

Stirring up his base, mind you, right? Is he really getting hot and bothered that the Democratic base, his base, is getting stirred up? Does he think his base is so fucking stupid they can be easily fooled? What the fuck?

[guillaumeb]

10. The President engages in ad hominem attacks

as a response to supposed ad hominem attacks. We have a right to expect better. The President KNOWs that many of the details of the agreement are secret. Only the corporate lobbyists who are writing the agreement know what the details are.

[BlueStreak]

117. When has he ever gone after a Republican as clearly as this?

Doesn't happen very often.

But this TPP is the thing his backers financed his campaign for. They have rolled their entire wish list into this thing. And Obama's future earnings as Ex-President ride on this.

[guillaumeb]

177. harsh, but possible.

William Clinton certainly made out well after his Presidency.

[marym625]

184. exactly what I was thinking

[SusanCalvin]

186. I have always believed

that money is involved in some way. It is the only plausible explanation.

[libdem4life]

194. It's the only things that explains his increasing fear/ferocity. Go Bernie and Elizabeth.

Seems it was to be his crowning glory. We'll see.

[GoneFishin]

248. "... their entire wish list ...". Good summation. He seems especially desperate and motivated.

Maybe it is about more than money?

[BlueStreak]

323. Nothing is more important than money in this circle

But there are different kinds of money. There is the money that Ex-Presidents can make by being a team player. And then there is the much larger amount of money that is needed in order to win the WH in 2016. The banksters, as a generalization, don't particularly identify with Republicans. They understand that Republican policies are always bad for the economy and the banksters make their bones by skimming a percentage off the whole economy. So all things considered, they'd rather back a Democrat.

But the Democrat has to play ball, and TPP is the big enchilada for them.

[bvar22]

12. YES. He does believe his "base" is that easily fooled.

Just look at Election 2008.

[LondonReign2]

24. We aren't his base, but we sure were convenient in 2008 and 2012

Seems the rest of the time he agrees with Rahm's description

[L0oniX]

313. The bus we're under is huge.

[cui bono]

56. Another STFU to the base.

What a disaster of a Dem presidency. He blew it big time. For us, I mean. He'll do just fine. Too bad we didn't get a president in who was really going to do the people's work. With all that momentum and Dems controlling both houses it would have been easy to get a lot accomplished if one had only wanted to.

[Scootaloo]

260. Jesus. doesn't the president know what "ad hominem" means?

I mean I can forgive the average forum-goer's lack of knowledge on thetrm, but... he's the president! C'mon!

[Skittles]

277. a lot of his base IS stupid and easily fooled

[haikugal]

8. Can you be any more disingenuous Mr Obama??

He's disgusting, just disgusting.

[Oilwellian]

9. The only person who's been dishonest...

is Obama. I will NEVER vote for a Third Way Dem EVER again. They can kiss my ass.

[MissDeeds]

21. [phone]

Thank you, Oilwellian. I agree completely.

[hifiguy]

29. Damn tootin'!! nt

[marym625]

215. YAY!

Now if you can just get all the others to agree

[frazzled]

11. Except, no: he didn't say that

He spoke of "dishonest criticism" (not a dishonest person) and didn't even mention Warren's name. Here's how TPM describes it:

President Barack Obama made a surprise appearance in a media conference call with Labor Secretary Tom Perez on Friday to push back on what he called "dishonest" criticism from progressives — apparently including Sen. Elizabeth Warren (D-MA) — that the Trans-Pacific Partnership was a "secret" deal.

"What I am averse to is a bunch of ad hominem attacks and misinformation that stirs up the base but ultimately doesn't serve them well. And I'm going to be pushing back very hard if I keep hearing that stuff," Obama told a small group of reporters on the call.

Of all the criticisms, "The one that gets on my nerves the most is the notion that this is a secret deal," he said. "Every single one of the critics saying this is a secret deal, or send out e-mails to their fundraising base that they're working to stop a secret deal, could walk over and see the text of the agreement."

Obama didn't mention Warren by name, but he didn't have to. Two days ago Warren sent her supporters a fundraising email to whip up opposition to fast-tracking a trade deal. "The government doesn't want you to read this massive new trade agreement," Warren wrote. "It’s top secret."

The president noted that the text of the TPP has been available "for weeks." He said some components are still being negotiated and that Congress will have months to review it and decide whether or not to approve the deal.

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/dc/obama-progressives-trade-tpp

So what and/or who has been dishonest? The email? Your post heading?

[jberryhill]

13. The obvious tell is that only one word is quoted

I'm surprised people fall for this stuff.

[Bobbie Jo]

31. I'm not surprised anymore

Talk about "dishonest."

Consider the source...

[emulatorloo]

212. Another D word that constantly comes to mind: "disingenuous"

So blatant and so transparent.

[LanternWaste]

38. Yup.

"I'm surprised people fall for this stuff..."

I'm not. Political biases are often stronger and more precious than rational thought.

[Egnever]

80. Come on..

Headlines have ruled this place for a long time.

It used to surprise me but hasn't in a loooong time now.

[Number23]

129. Consider the source.

Always, consider the source.

[Surya Gayatri]

147. The pattern is so entrenched and the MO so blatant, but people

can't resist signing on for some obsequious bowing and scrapping.

Simply unconscionable!

NEVER been on our side!

Seriously disgusted with the traitor!

All of that extrapolated from a one word misquote.

If it weren't so hackneyed, it would be risible.

[Number23]

148. It is hackneyed. It is blatant. And it is hysterical

Especially when so many sources are doing the "look, we love Liz but she's full of it on this" angle.

This is about as transparent as it gets. Elizabeth Warren is a politician and even her panting fans will come to see that before too long. And then they'll have to accept that and then they'll abandon her in droves the way everyone has been predicting.

This is just one of a long item of BS thrown at this president. Remember when it was cuts to SS would be his legacy? Then Keystone? Then xxyyzz issue. The people that scream will do as they have always done and when shown up for fools, they'll just move on to the next scream. As they have always done.

[Surya Gayatri]

152. Ordinarily, I wouldn't touch one of these OPs with a barge pole, but your

reply stood out, so I decided 'what the hell'.

"Then xxyyzz issue. The people that scream will do as they have always done and when shown up for fools, they'll just move on to the next scream."

That's their MO in a nutshell.

[Number23]

157. Yeah, between the subject matter and the OP, I tend to stay away too

[sheshe2]

158. I have learned the same.....

Thanks to the advice of a few friends. Ignoring someone in my head has been, for the most part been working for me!

That last hide falls away tomorrow! I am free!

[demwing]

191. So when will Obama's "panting fans" see the truth?

n23, you're ruthless in your condemnations of those with whom you disagree, but the president is seriously off tilt here, and still you defend him. Still you defend him.

[Number23]

198. Warren is the one saying that the TPP is a secret and no one can see it. Everyone can see that is

not the case. There are several articles out in the last few days many written by Democrats that are saying she's full of it on this issue.

If you want to keep up the pretence that she's telling the truth here, knock yourself out. I GENUINELY could not care less.

[MannyGoldstein]

205. That's great! I'm having trouble linking

to the latest official text. Can you help me out with that?

Thanks!

[Number23]

209. The operative words here are "secret" that no one can see. That's not what's happening and never has

This whole thing could blow up in Obama's face. Or it could blow up in Warren's. If it is Warren, I hope that she would not have damaged her credibility and support beyond only the fringe who only live to be anti-Obama and could give less than a shit about Democrats.

Know anything about that group?

[MannyGoldstein]

211. How could *anything* be secret that no one can see?

How does that make sense?

Unless it's like an underground rock formation.

[Number23]

216. I don't know what you're talking about. That now makes two of us. And I'm bored with you and your

oh so tired games. I've always been bored with that.

Warren as a member of Congress, can see the draft versions of the TPP any time she'd like. It's also come out that any member of the public will have a month to view the TPP before it is voted on as well. I can see that's just fucking up all of your months of "hard" work here, but THAT'S what everyone is talking about.

[MannyGoldstein]

217. You wrote...

"The operative words here are "secret" that no one can see. That's not what's happening and never has"

That makes no sense.

[Number23]

220. It's not a secret if people, members of Congress are still people, can see it anytime

So it's not a secret and never has been. And it will be even less secretive when the final version is released.

[Vattel]

229. Sigh, Warren isn't claiming that no one has seen it.

[Number23]

233. 57 posts from people arguing that it is secret, me saying it isn't, and I'M the one you decide to

"correct?"

And despite your sighs and protestations, she is in fact very much saying that the deal is too secretive and is being kept from the American public for nefarious reasons:

"When she is shocked, SHOCKED that the TPP deal isn’t available for public viewing while it is still being negotiated, she is not telling you the truth. She knows that the reason the deal isn’t available while it’s being negotiated is, right or wrong, because public pressure could, at any point, derail a flawed but fixable agreement. The reason she gives, however, is quite literally unbelievable:

Why? Here’s the real answer people have given me: “We can’t make this deal public because if the American people saw what was in it, they would be opposed to it.”

Seriously, Sen. Warren? “People” have given it to you? Way to narrow it down, because I was going to go away convinced you’d been advised by hoot owls, who are notorious liars. Why the secrecy, though? If these “people” are so sure TPP is a horrible deal, why can’t we talk to them? Can other people besides you see them?

When Senator Warren calls TPP a “top secret” deal, she’s not telling you the truth. Any member of Congress can see it now, and before Congress votes on it, the final deal will be posted online for 60 days. What we can see now is the USTR summary of the deal, which, granted, isn’t the deal, but it isn’t nothing.

http://thedailybanter.com/2015/04/elizabeth-warren-is-not-telling-the-truth-about-the-trans-pacific-partnership-trade-deal/

Congress members, who are supposed to act as proxy for the citizens of the US that they were sent to Congress to represent, are now able to see the drafts of the TPP. It is not secret.

[demwing]

235. How can the TPP be "less secretive" if it was never secret?

your argument is invalid.

[Number23]

241. I am so loving that you guys have nothing better to do than engage in this idiotic drivel

as if you don't understand the English language. I implore you to PLEASE keep it up. It highlights so perfectly exactly what some people are doing and have always tried to try to do here to demean and undermine this president.

It is entirely possible for something that is not a secret to be less secretive when it will be released from only being viewed by a large group of people (members of Congress and their staff) to an even larger one (the totality of the American public). Now you can keep this really stupid schtick up and I've seen enough of your posts to know that you just love an argument, no matter how insipid or bad it makes you look, and will chase people up and down threads who aren't even replying to you but the smart thing to do would be to stop. Yesterday.

[mimi85]

263. Thank you for articulating it so well.

[Number23]

264. I wish I could say "my pleasure" but it isn't

Hard to tell if folks are playing dumb or actually are but regardless, it's not hard to see why the level of thought and discourse has dropped by many miles here and we've lost so many intelligent and diverse perspectives.

[demwing]

218. He can't admit he's wrong

Because that requires a measure of introspection that those on attack mode cannot afford.

[seabeyond]

16. averse to is a bunch of ad hominem attacks and misinformation that stirs up the base

seems this OP ought to pay attention to what is actually being said. it does not serve them well.

i am opposed to tpp. but, i am also trying to educate myself what it is saying. i have gotten some from grayson and others.

when i am told it is top secret, i am wondering how i was able to get the info from grayson and another.

[morningfog]

17. He didn't have to use Warren's name. He referenced her email.

And, yes, he said what Warren has said and done is dishonest.

No he didn't say she is a dishonest person, but did say she is being dishonest. Like saying someone is not a racist, but doing something racist. It is semantics.

[frazzled]

22. No, he didn't even reference her email specifically

He said that the charge that you couldn't read the (as yet unfinalized) document was not true. If the shoe fits.

Why don't you care that EW has been pulling your strings with half truths?

[morningfog]

26. So you say he wasn't calling her dishonest, and then you follow with how I should

feel about her dishonesty? LOL.

[frazzled]

35. Telling people it's secret is the issue

Many have claimed it is secret. That is what the president called dishonest. I simply said, if the shoe fits.

PS: I get EW's emails every day, so I know what they say. Try lifting the fog.

[morningfog]

41. Can you link to where Warren has said that it is kept secret from her?

"The one that gets on my nerves the most is the notion that this is a ‘secret’ deal,” Obama said. “Every single one of the critics who I hear saying, ‘this is a secret deal,’ or send out emails to their fundraising base saying they’re working to prevent this secret deal, can walk over today and read the text of the agreement. There’s nothing secret about it.”

That appeared to be a response to Elizabeth Warren’s recent fundraising letter claiming the administration’s promises can’t be trusted because “people like you can’t see the actual deal.”

“When I keep on hearing people repeating this notion that it’s ‘secret,’ I gotta say, it’s dishonest,” Obama continued. “And it’s concerning when I see friends of mine resorting to these kinds of tactics.”

Now, don't play dumb. He is addressing Warren, her public comments and her email. And he is saying that she is being dishonest. When she isn't. Warren says it is secret from us. It is.

[seabeyond]

43. all i have been reading is this is secret. it is not secret. that is the point. nt

[morningfog]

46. It is secret from you. Not congresscritters. Warren never claimed otherwise, unless I missed it.

[seabeyond]

66. then they can HONESTLY without agenda, give us the info, right? nt

[MannyGoldstein]

67. It's illegal to leak the text to the public. nt

[seabeyond]

69. then why is grayson's ass not arrested, cause i listened to him tell about two pieces.

do you see where all these stories are not making fuckin sense, especially when OPs make shit up as a title.

[MannyGoldstein]

76. Sorry, it's all my fault.

Perhaps you could ask the NY Times,

Don’t Keep the Trans-Pacific Partnership Talks Secret

Or just launch personal attacks at people who post facts that discomfort you.

[seabeyond]

77. wtf are you even talking about now. just redirect, when called?

fuck the personal attack, there is none. and no where is there even a suggestion about "discomfort" but a real hoot for you just to fabricate shit.

[Jackpine Radical]

109. 3 chapters have been leaked, and therefore are now fair game.

Everything said publicly by Grayson or Warren, etc. is re-iterated from those parts.

[sheshe2]

156. Boom!

Brava!

[sabrina 1]

309. Grayson did NOT discuss the text of the TPP that is being hidden from the American

people. I explained that to you yesterday. I listened to him also and asked you to point out where he did that.

The LEAKS are what they can discuss. Thanks to Wikileaks we have a few leaks that are a minor part of this abomination.

So once again, Grayson did not violate the Gag Order, he spoke broadly about the 14 other Trade Agreements which did not benefit the American people.

He spoke about our huge trade deficit, but did not say whether or not that has been addressed in the TPP because he is unable to do so.

And we have a RIGHT to that information.

Do YOU know whether or not that Trade Deficit has been fixed in this Agreement?

Grayson didn't tell us, because he CAN"t. And that is unacceptable in a democracy

Gagging OUR Representives!! Unbelievable.

[seabeyond]

72. democracy now

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017259450

and again, the first seconds.... secretive, as it is available for reading.

[morningfog]

79. No they cannot give us the info.

They are not permitted to.

[seabeyond]

82. check out my link to democracy now. grayson giving out info. you say secret. i see it isnt

you say they cannot give us info. i listen to a video of grayson doing just that.

do you get the confusion?

[morningfog]

87. Link to the text of the draft?

[seabeyond]

90. so, they can tell us about it, regardless of you and manny telling me otherwise. you want text of

an ongoing negotiation before it is done? that is what this is about? then it is not secret and they can tell us what they read.

[eridani]

287. Yes. We can see the text of other laws before they are in their final form

Why should trade agreements be an exception? All the TPP cheerleaders keep telling us to STFU on the grounds that we don't even know that the final version will look like.

[treestar]

163. Then President Obama is not referring to her.

[treestar]

162. He's not referring to her if she does not say it's secret.

So it depends whether she says that in her emails or not. Some must, and they are the ones the President is referring to.

Then add these things have been done the same way for ages, and no President before had to take that crap.

[joshcryer]

189. She could make it public.

Her own inaction is keeping it secret.

[LondonReign2]

319. Is that accurate? I thought members of Congress were prohibited from publically discussing it

[LondonReign2]

330. So yeah, you're completely wrong

"Members of Congress may read the draft text of the deal as it stands today but are prohibited from publicly discussing the full details, which have yet to be made available to the public or the press. "

[LondonReign2]

331. And even more wrong, which you will not acknowledge

"Legislators can see it, but only with a trade official, and with no aides, no notes, no experts, no copies and no repeating of details that are classified.)"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/a-progressives-lament-about-the-trans-pacific-partnership/2015/04/28/6627523e-ed18-11e4-8abc-d6aa3bad79dd_story.html?postshare=1611430226521941

[Aerows]

310. I know

That was ... LOL.

[seabeyond]

28. and why not just read it, tell us, instead of saying secret and putting own agenda on it.

i was all bothered with the "secret" yesterday, only to hear today, that it is accessible and nothing secret about it.

[appal_jack]

98. So let's have a link to the full text, please.

No link available? That means it is being kept secret from me, a citizen of these United States.

-app

[seabeyond]

102. we are told secret, it isnt. we are told congress cant say anything, they can.

you want an unfinished negotiated deal before its time and that makes NO sense. no one would put out half a deal before it was completed. that is absurd.

[eridani]

288. They can paraphrase, but they can't link to the text n/t

[seabeyond]

326. this it is not secret. do you realize how many different things have been said in this subthread?

then anyone dare to say anything, in the mix of info are labeled evil tpp supporters.

i will spend time gathering info, see how consistent and accurate info is.... and real what is put out and go from there.

like i have said repeatedly, i have and am anti tpp. int he right here and now. but, since learning more and more stuff, i also better understand obamas position, whether i agree with his decisions and plan, or not.

[eridani]

332. If it's not on the White House website, and our representatives can't even take notes-

--then it is secret. However, all the trade deals from NAFTA on that have fucked over the 99%, which gives more than a clue about what is in this one.

[LanternWaste]

39. You sincerely and honestly see no relevant distinction between the two?

"Like saying someone is not a racist, but doing something racist. It is semantics."

Or doing something stupid as opposed to being stupid? You sincerely and honestly see no relevant distinction between the two?

[morningfog]

42. There is a distinction, but he is still referring to Warren and what she is doing.

And, he is not being honest in his accusation.

[seabeyond]

44. is she the only one claiming it is secret? if so, then why? nt

[morningfog]

57. On second thought, racism is bad analogy.

So is stupidity. One could do something or say something stupid or racist but not be stupid or racist, respectively.

One cannot do or say something dishonest without being dishonest. Dishonesty requires intention and knowledge. In that case, it is semantics.

[SidDithers]

30. FUD'ers gonna FUD...

They can't help it. It's their nature.

Sid

[NanceGreggs]

50. Thanks for posting that.

More and more, I feel like DU is becoming an on-line version of FOX-News - misinformation being spread by cherry-picking single words or phrases from a quote and building a totally false narrative around them.

[morningfog]

58. He said that what Warren has done and said is dishonest.

Meaning, she is not being honest. He didn't say she was mistaken or wrong (although he did say she was wrong earlier). He said dishonest.

[NanceGreggs]

75. "meaning ..."

The relevant text is posted at Reply #11, if you'd care to read it.

But it seems you would rather have Manny's "interpretation" of what was said, rather than what was actually said.

[morningfog]

84. What emails was he referring to?

Whose statements?

[NanceGreggs]

89. I am not interested in these games.

You can go with what was actually said, or you can go with the spin on what was said.

[morningfog]

91. I don't blame you for jumping out now.

[NanceGreggs]

94. Thanks for the "spin" on what I actually said. n/t

[Enthusiast]

106. You know a great deal about false narratives.

[Logical]

111. Oh FFS drop the drama. nt

[NanceGreggs]

118. I leave the drama ...

... to those who feel compelled to fold, spindle, staple and mutilate actual quotes in order to spin them into something that suits their own opinion or agenda.

It's rather rampant here these days.

[Logical]

120. Quit worrying so much about Warren. She is not running. So you never have to see the disaster....

that would of been Warren debating Hillary.

[NanceGreggs]

139. Thanks for proving my point.

I have never said a single negative thing about Warren, here or elsewhere. And yet you have put that "spin" on two of my posts in the last few days, despite the fact that my statements had absolutely nothing to do with Warren at all.

Elizabeth Warren doesn't "worry" me in the least - again, that's your "spin" and has no basis in reality.

In actual fact, had Warren decided to run, it would have been very interesting to see her debate HRC. I'd like to hear what Warren's thoughts are on foreign policy, defense, military spending, diplomatic relations, infrastructure rebuilding, education, urban renewal, int'l terrorism - and all of the other aspects of governing that a POTUS must deal with.

Warren is doing a remarkable job in the position she now holds. That doesn't necessarily mean that her positions on matters outside of her current bailiwick would be in sync with those who have assumed that they are.

[treestar]

165. The drama is from the hair on fire brigade

There's a thread on an article calling the TPP the Death of the Republic. This kind of thing usually means someone is ginning up the drama.

[Bobbie Jo]

178. LOL!!

This entire thread is an exercise in DRAMA!

Did you type that with a straight face?

[Surya Gayatri]

160. Yep, textbook propaganda techniques. Newsspeak revisited.

I wonder where some of these people learned their word craft.

[emulatorloo]

265. Karl Rove and Roger Ailes

[still_one]

197. No not fox news, McCarthyism. No one can wait for the final agreement

which will be made public at least 90 days before the debate and vote

I called Elizabeth Warrens office today and the person answering the phone said that Warren has no issue with the treaty being debated after it is finalized before the vote. What she didn't want was it being fast tracked

This is almost as much fun as months ago someone called Obama every name in the book because he said the ACA didn't cover something

A few days later he found out that it had to go through prior authorization or something like that to get covered. That was done, and it was covered, but the piling on and hate infested threads that went on against Obama were quite unjustified

I have no problems with criticizing the president on specific things, but the hyperbole, and blather I guess must provide a cathartic outlet for some, because it doesn't add to the debate

We will see shortly the final agreement, and determine how good or bad it is. This will happen before congress debates it or votes on it

[NanceGreggs]

210. Yeah, the rending of garments ...

... and gnashing of teeth is gettin' a bit loud around here.

[still_one]

213. Sometimes I have to walk away because the comments get off the map

and it is hard to hold a reasonable discussion

[NanceGreggs]

219. Oh, I hear ya!

Was told by someone here that Obama's motive for getting the TPP approved is so he can get some speaking engagements and a book deal when he leaves office.

As we all know, the first black POTUS would never be offered such deals w/o the TPP - he'd be reduced to sitting on street corners with a "will write book for food" sign hung around his neck.

Really, you just HAVE to laugh at some of the stuff that gets posted here. And I do laugh - a lot!

[zeemike]

65. I have never heard of an honest person using dishonest criticism

Except in satire.

[Skittles]

96. so to WHOM exactly is Obama referring to?

go ahead, please DO let us know

[MannyGoldstein]

99. He was referring to REPUBLICANS who are against the agreement

Regards,

TWM

[F4lconF16]

132. But...but...but...

“When I keep on hearing people repeating this notion that it’s ‘secret,’ I gotta say, it’s dishonest,” Obama continued. “And it’s concerning when I see friends of mine resorting to these kinds of tactics.”

Help me understand, TWM.

[DJ13]

171. "......when I see friends of mine resorting to these kinds of tactics.”

Republicans are Obama's best friends when it comes to fast track.

[dflprincess]

271. Which is the biggest clue that something is very wrong with it nt

[uponit7771]

105. They're desperate

[seabeyond]

108. i am all for killing the deal. but this thread is bullshit. telling me congress people cant say

anything as i have video of grayson saying shit about the deal. and i agree with the man. though i do not like him

but do not tell me lies that it is secret, or congress gagged.... to get support.

[99Forever]

137. Doesn't your "Trash this thread" function work?

Use it if you don't like what's being said.

[still_one]

200. That is the problem there is so much misinformation

[A Simple Game]

136. So please tell me,

The president noted that the text of the TPP has been available "for weeks."

where can I get my copy?

It's a bunch of bull and he is going to cost the Democrats the Presidency in 2016 if he keeps this up. It must be getting hard to not see his true colors.

[trumad]

143. shush!

Your ruining the haters oragasims..... they hear what they want to hear and nothing else.

[sheshe2]

154. Ooopsie!

Thanks for the truth frazzled.

Now I wonder why the Op would do something like that? Hmmmm makes you think.

[rhett o rick]

172. Oh Boy! An honest person can't, by definition, utter dishonest criticism. He said her criticism

was dishonest, therefore he was calling her dishonest. Nice try at "rope-a-dope".

[demwing]

175. People who claim that Obama didn't call Warren dishonest

are pathetic sycophants, and sellouts to the Democratic Party.

But since I didn't specify you by name then I'm not calling you a pathetic sycophant, and a sellout to the Democratic Party, am I?

[joshcryer]

188. We know Warren has read it.

She wrote an OP ed about ISDS.

Why doesn't Warren release the text by admitting it to the senate record?

[joshcryer]

236. What difficulties do you envision?

[MannyGoldstein]

246. Let's start easy; where would she get a copy?

To read into the record?

(I accidentally deleted the post above yours questioning if there might be any problems with your scheme.)

[joshcryer]

269. Do you imagine some guard is there overseeing it?

It's in a damn filling cabinet. Secretaries probably make copies of it weekly. Send a staffer down there, have a copy made for "official business," bring it back to the senate floor, read the juicy bits, enter the rest into the record.

[MannyGoldstein]

270. Yes, there is a White House minder present at all times

when a member of Congress is reading it.

The documents cannot be removed.

[joshcryer]

273. Do you have a source for that?

That is utterly ludicrous.

[MannyGoldstein]

275. IIRC, it's in this

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026545946

[joshcryer]

280. That's utterly insane.

Incredible. I want to see someone make a cell phone video of that. It would really go viral quick.

That would make it quite difficult but it could certainly be done.

The overarching question is, then, does the outline of the TPP announced by the USTR accurately represent the language in the TPP? This question can be answered by any congressperson. The answer is "probably."

I don't take the "what are you hiding" stuff seriously when the text will be made public 60 days before the vote. It's as absurd as the people complaining about the net neutrality rules being "secret."

But I agree this babysitting thing is BS. I do think that congresspeople should be babysat. When they're in the room with other lobbyists.

[MannyGoldstein]

281. At what point does one say "this thing is rigged"

We can spend our lives trying to figure this out, but it sure doesn't have the trappings of anything meant to do anything other than #%^ the 99%.

[joshcryer]

283. We have 60 days to push against it.

You have to appreciate that Michael Froman is doing the best he can with the committee wanting the full say in it. Committees don't want the precedent set where other congresspeople can interfere in their doings. Would it be that the entire congress decided upon all bills in areas that interested them, but that can be risky because you want to set up a committee across party lines (half and half, with one vote extra representing the majority party). If everyone had a say then the majority party would have complete rule over whatever committees handle.

It's definitely rigged but I think that is by design and I can't say it bothers me when we will have 60 days to go over it (and a special interest group should be able to read it even if it is hundreds of thousands of pages; just assign a thousand pages to a hundred people, easy peasy; odds are the entire thing will be digested in a couple of days once it's made known).

[marym625]

223. What he called dishonest criticism

So it's semantics that bother you? I mean someone criticizing dishonestly isn't being dishonest.

He didn't mention Warren by name but he didn't have to. He just described the criticism, dishonest criticism, what is being said, and what she just did, sending out emails to her supporters.

Yes, who could he possibly be talking about? How is what is being said dishonest but the person saying it isn't?

Smh.

[mimi85]

252. Manny should get a job coming up with headlines for

TMZ or HuffPo.

[closeupready]

14. She is not dishonest.

Not at all.

[hedda_foil]

15. I really, really, really doubt the union and liberal groups' leaders, much less their attorneys

... will be cleared to read the documents in the bat cave where even Senatorial staffers are denied acces.

I am wayyy beyond furious at his insults.

[Broward]

18. The Democratic Party has been had.

Obama should have run as a Republican.

[MissDeeds]

36. Yes!

He had all the rhetoric to pull people in, but once in office he ran to the right and has governed as a Republican...an honest to god Trojan horse. I believed from the beginning he was a rethug in sheep's clothing, and apparently I was right.

[one_voice]

116. What the hell?

Have you seen what those nut jobs are running on?

There are things I disagree with the president about, but he's not a republican.

[eridani]

292. Not a 2015 Republican to be sure. More like a 1955 Republican n/t

[LondonReign2]

320. He's called himself a 1980's moderate Republican

and said that in a lot of ways Nixon was more liberal than he is.

The sad fact is that big money and the media have dragged this country so far to the right that a moderate 1980's Republican is now a Democratic President. I think we need to look at his support of TPP in that light. I think he really believes it is a good thing, as do most other Republicans.

Despite this, one would have hoped a man of Obama's great intelligence would have seen that the results of NAFTA and the South Korean trade agreements were a great loss of American jobs and had second thoughts about TPP, but that isn't the case unfortunately.

[ananda]

19. Whoa! Projection much?!!

His desperation reeks.

[denverbill]

20. Obamatrade allows communist countries to override American laws.

Anyone who supports this law supports a communist dictator imposing his will on the American people and usurping the Constitution.

And for those of you who actually think for yourselves, this is a fucking miserable treaty that will completely screw over American workers in favor of multinational corporations. As Adam Smith, the father of capitalism said,

The interest of the dealers, however, in any particular branch of trade or manufactures, is always in some respects different from, and even opposite to, that of the public. To widen the market and to narrow the competition, is always the interest of the dealers.

The proposal of any new law or regulation of commerce which comes from this order, ought always to be listened to with great precaution, and ought never to be adopted till after having been long and carefully examined, not only with the most scrupulous, but with the most suspicious attention. It comes from an order of men, whose interest is never exactly the same with that of the public, who have generally an interest to deceive and even to oppress the public, and who accordingly have, upon many occasions, both deceived and oppressed it."

---------
The TPP was COMPLETELY written and negotiated by the 'dealers'.

[Rolando]

164. To the point

Thanks for the quotation. Does anybody remember, though, that it was Richard Nixon who opened the doors to trade with China? That country was and is a capitalist communist (revolving) dictatorship. No matter how many foreign corporations have tried to take advantage of cheap labor there, the Chinese communist government has come out on top.

[treestar]

167. What communist countries?

[nationalize the fed]

23. Dishonest is promising a public insurance option and then pretending you didn't

In August 2012, Rob Engstrom, political director for the United States Chamber of Commerce, claimed that "no other candidate in 2012 represents a greater threat to free enterprise than Professor Warren."



Warren received a primetime speaking slot at the 2012 Democratic National Convention, immediately before Bill Clinton, on the evening of September 5,2012. Warren positioned herself as a champion of a beleaguered middle class that "has been chipped, squeezed, and hammered." According to Warren, "People feel like the system is rigged against them. And here's the painful part: They're right. The system is rigged." Warren said that Wall Street CEOs "wrecked our economy and destroyed millions of jobs" and that they "still strut around congress, no shame, demanding favors, and acting like we should thank them.

In 2009, the Boston Globe named her the Bostonian of the Year,[20] and the Women's Bar Association of Massachusetts honored her with the Lelia J. Robinson Award.[95] She was named one of Time Magazine's 100 Most Influential People in the World in 2009, 2010, and 2015.[96] The National Law Journal repeatedly has named Warren as one of the Fifty Most Influential Women Attorneys in America,[97] and in 2010 it honored her as one of the 40 most influential attorneys of the decade.[98]

In 2011, Elizabeth Warren was inducted into the Oklahoma Hall of Fame.[99] In January 2012, Warren was named a "Top-20 U.S. Progressive" by the New Statesman, a magazine based in the United Kingdom.[100]In 2009, Warren became the first professor in Harvard's history to win the law school's The Sacks–Freund Teaching Award for a second time.[101] She delivered the commencement address at the Rutgers School of Law–Newark in May 2011, where she was awarded an Honorary Doctor of Laws degree and was conferred membership into the Order of the Coif.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Warren

Warren or Obama? I'll take Warren any day

[elzenmahn]

49. Warren is looking better and better every day...

I'm with her on this, as well.

[ctsnowman]

51. Exactly!

[hifiguy]

25. He seems hell-bent on burning his last bridges with progressives.

TPTB must really be putting the screws to him.

Too bad he doesn't have the fortitude and integrity to stand up to them, but I suppose the allure of millions post-presidency, ala the Clintons, is too much to resist. TPTB compensate their lackeys very well after they leave public office provided they have rendered the desired services.

[postulater]

27. "Yes We Can"? No You Don't

"Yes We Can"? No You Don't

"Yes We Can"? No You Don't

"Yes We Can"? No You Don't

"Yes We Can"? No You Don't

My new chant. I waiting to see which candidate starts telling the oligarchs "No You Don't". That is who I will vote for.

[blkmusclmachine]

32. http://scrapetv.com/News/News%20Pages/Politics/images-4/obama-not-happy.jpg

[blkmusclmachine]

33. http://www.capitolhillblue.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/051513obama-460x306.jpg

[nationalize the fed]

48. .

[MaggieD]

37. Sadly, she IS being dishonest

Typical politician BS, IMO.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026560570

[LanternWaste]

40. One words quotes are "dishonest" also.

One words quotes are "dishonest" also.

[elzenmahn]

45. Dishonest?

How about releasing the damned TPP to the public?

To keep it from us is DISHONEST, Mr. President!

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

47. Yeah, fuck him. So what if 12 million americans have health care now, so what if

pre existing clause is no longer a part of our lives.

So what if he saved our economy and country up against the worst obstruction ever seen in the history of ever.

Fuck him, he made a mistake, what is he thinking!

[elzenmahn]

54. I would never dismiss the President...

...but his accomplishments, some of which you duly list, do not give him CARTE BLANCHE to push what many agree is a BAD AGREEMENT and and BAD LAW.

And I DON'T CARE what he thinks of the TPP or what he thinks about those of us who are against it.

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

55. Some have NEVER supported him but pretend to and then attack him on this, not you

but they are EVERYWHERE and i have no patience, at all , for them

I am against this as much as anybody.

[marym625]

228. Then why not speak to that instead of the poster?

I am not trying to show disrespect. I'm seriously asking. When we don't talk about the issues and only discuss each other, we not only accomplish nothing, we hurt the party.

I know how many people don't like Manny. But what difference does it make in the scheme of things who likes whom?

This is a huge slap in the face to us all. Let's talk about that. Let's make sure that we're not going to take this anymore. We may not have billions to contribute to campaigns, but we have a voice and we can and will be heard.

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

308. Agree, my problem is if someone never supports X, or is criticizing them on everything, then when

that person continues to criticize I tend to tune it out.

There is a lot of that here, that no matter what Obama does or Hillary does or did, nothing but criticism.

But you are right, the issue is more important than the personality of one person.

I watched Maher this morning from last night and even the liberal on the board was attacking Hillary over the new book which has no proof of anything.

We are in trouble like you cant imagine if we dont stop that stuff in it's tracks.

I respect you and your opinion tremendously, which means you cant insult or upset me because I know you well enough to know that isnt your goal.

[marym625]

318. Thank you so much

What a kind thing to say.

I understand what you are saying. I will have to add that the converse is true as well. There are people here that defend everything that is said and done by both President Obama and Hillary Clinton and I am sorry, but some of it is not defensible. Some of those people, though obviously not all, will attack everyone that disagrees with them. And both sides doing these things, have to stop.

We, Democrats, started to give into things back in the days of Reagan. Little by little we started losing ourselves. We started becoming a party of whimps.

Add to the fact that the Republicans started to go insane and losing some of their base. That base joined the democratic party.

So we now have a party that talks a good game on social issues but doesn't address the economic issues. Not the way we have to. It is why we lost so very much in the budget signed at the end of 2014. A budget written in part by Citibank, that has killed pension benefits for millions and has allowed astronomical amounts of money into campaigns.

So, while it is important to support our party, is is just as important to make sure our candidates know that we will no longer accept rhetoric. We will not allow for silence on issues that affect us greatly. We will not sit back and allow them to say they care about the average American while they help corporations, banks and the 1% to gain more power over us.

I respect you. I know that you want the same things I, and so many others here want. You are fighting the good fight and doing more than many to cause change. I appreciate you and I thank you for your kind words

[Cleita]

53. And so starts the circular firing squad. No wonder we can't change this nation for the better.

btw. This is what Bernie Sanders has to say about the TPP

http://www.sanders.senate.gov/download/the-trans-pacific-trade-tpp-agreement-must-be-defeated?inline=file

[SusanCalvin]

196. Bernie says

TPP must be defeated, per your link. (When you mentioned circular firing squad with the link, my first thought was to wonder if he had changed his position.)

[Hoyt]

59. I've come to a similar conclusion -- she's playing to her fundraising list. And that's transparent.

[WillyT]

60. K & R !!! - Yeah... Right... It's Elizabeth Warren Who's Dishonest... And Bernie Sanders...

And Sherrod Brown... And Al Franken... And Alan Grayson...

[morningfog]

63. Damn them trying to stir up the base!!

[floriduck]

61. If Elizabeth Warren is "dishonest"

then I am afraid our President is misinformed. Senator Warren fights for the middle class and impoverished. What, Mr. President have you done to help the masses? Nothing compared to your campaign promises. So let's not go down the dishonest path.

[ozone_man]

199. She is not dishonest.

I wish she would run. And Bernie.

[Paper Roses]

62. Not a good choice of words, Mr President.

Lots of us would like to see some information about TPP. It is dishonest of you and your minions not to let us know what this is really about.
I'm losing faith rapidly. Transparent is now opaque!

[one_voice]

64. LOL...talk about dishonest...

Oh yeah, the weekend is here.

[SidDithers]

86. Yup...

Welcome to anti-DemocraticUnderground.com.

Sid

[one_voice]

114. He killed two birds with one lying ass stone...

notice the subtle swipe taken at Hillary--or not so subtle.

[Doctor_J]

68. He should have switched parties in 2010.

After he led the democrats to the slaughter in the midterm he should have dropped the pretense.

[sabrina 1]

70. So he thinks the base are like sheep who cannot think for themselves, easily 'riled up' by Warren?

I wonder why he didn't tell us that when we were 'riled up' by him?

He's not getting it, but then he doesn't communicate with the base, the base are not dumb nitwits who needed Warren or anyone else to tell them that a Secret Deal which Congress was denied access to, doesn't sit well with anyone with a few brain cells working.

So he's slammed the base, Unions, every single decent Democrat in Congress.

Has he said who he doesn't view as 'dishonest'? There are no Democrats left for him to bash, so apparently he trusts people other than Democrats.

And someone should tell him that gagging members of Congress from letting those they REPRESENT know what in this, still secret agreement to the PEOPLE. It is being kept secret from the PEOPLE.

I thought he was more intelligent than to admonish the people for not 'understanding' this agreement consideration he has refused for YEARS to let them see it.

Just show it to us and stop ignoring the fact that, yes, to the AMerican people that agreement IS still secret.

It says a lot that he ignores this very important point, demanding we know what is in a closed box we don't have the key to. It says he doesn't even think of the people.

[Triana]

73. But WE. CAN'T. READ. IT.

And THAT is the problem.

[Skittles]

97. if you're stupid enough, you can just TRUST him, Triana

GET WITH THE PROGRAM!

[one_voice]

88. .

TheKentuckian (22,149 posts)
78. This is why "piece of shit used car salesman" was a more honest assesment than the teeth gnashers

will ever admit.

He is a lying ass, corporate conservative Turd Wayer and just another in a long line Koch Whores and Petersonbots out to to undo democracy and smash broad prosperity into the dust on behalf of the the most sickly greedy fuckers in all of human history.

This is why job #1 is flushing the Turd Way otherwise it is impossible to even mount opposition to the bulk of TeaPubliKlan agend

[TheKentuckian]

93. Your puke can flush right along with the fetid turds

[one_voice]

112. Just so you know, I wasn't the one that alerted

on your other comment.

[zappaman]

221. Nevertheless...

That's a good hide.

[one_voice]

272. Agree.

[stonecutter357]

222. rwnj

[1StrongBlackMan]

153. LOLOLOLOL ...

"the teeth gnashers"

[1StrongBlackMan]

81. Oh my! ...

Bull@#$&, Mr. President. Make it public, today, if it's so great.

Question: What good would releasing a not yet agreed to agreement do ... other than, ending negotiations. But I guess that's your point, huh?

[DisgustipatedinCA]

104. If he's being honest with us, disclosure would stop the bleeding.

Asked and answered.

[1StrongBlackMan]

159. No, like I said, It'll merely stop the negotiations ...

But then, again, that seems to be the point ... regardless of what is, or is not, going to be in the finalized agreement.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

227. Um...no to your no. I answered your question, and I did so accurately.

my answer didn't comport with what you're trying to push, but it was accurate. If you believe otherwise, you'll need to do better than "no".

[1StrongBlackMan]

239. Like anyone believes that releasing the ...

Still being negotiated agreement would stop anything ... other than the negotiations.

[druidity33]

115. why would it end negotiations? nt.

[1StrongBlackMan]

161. For the same reason the negotiations are done under seal ...

so that the parties' negotiating positions and responses cannot be identified.

[marym625]

234. The negotiations would not stop because it was made public

Why do you have a problem with the public, who is a party to these negotiations, seeing something that corporate stooges wrote?

You don't keep deals secret from parties to the contract.

Additionally, waiting until the agreement is completed to make it public just means they created a deal that is done. And was done in secret

[1StrongBlackMan]

242. Because I understand the negotiating environment ...

Because I know that the finalized agreement will be made public, then voted on ... just like most other international negotiations.

Yes, there are numerous situations when the terms of a/the contract are not disclosedoing until there is an agreement to present to the membership, union contract negotiations comes to mind.

[marym625]

254. I am very familiar with negotiations as well.

The problem with your argument is that corporations have access to this and the unions and citizens don't.

Another problem is that once it is negotiated, with the fast track, there is zero ability to change it and no filibuster. So with a Republican controlled Congress, that wants this, the first we see is a done deal.

We are not talking about national security. This is a trade deal and it should not be negotiated without those that will be affected allowed to be part of those negotiations.

Why do you not have a problem with the corporations, even those that didn't write this, have access to it and we don't?

In union contracts, the negotiators don't then get to keep it all in if the rank and file don't like it. And most offers are made public. Even to those in the public that are not part of the union often know what is going on during negotiations.

You didn't answer me. Why do you not have a problem with corporations writing it, being part of the negotiations, but you have a problem with us knowing?

[1StrongBlackMan]

266. Since you are familiar with negotiations ...

I don't get your "release it to the public before an agreement has been struck" stance. That is commonplace and has been for as long as I can recall.

The problem with your argument is that corporations have access to this and the unions and citizens don't.

Per the aggrieved. I do not know this to be true ... and, nor do you.

We are not talking about national security.

Do you doubt, the economy is a National Security issue/concern?

Why do you not have a problem with the corporations, even those that didn't write this, have access to it and we don't?

Per the aggrieved. I do not know this to be true ... and, nor do you.

In union contracts, the negotiators don't then get to keep it all in if the rank and file don't like it. And most offers are made public. Even to those in the public that are not part of the union often know what is going on during negotiations.

That is not true. The negotiating committee bargain ... the rank and file do not (officially) know what is in, or not in, the agreement until there is agreement among the parties. Then, the agreement is disclosed to the rank and file. And the "public offers" are no where near the finalized agreement ... rather they are (like the leaked memos) PR stunts to influence negotiations.

Is that not your negotiation experience?

You didn't answer me. Why do you not have a problem with corporations writing it, being part of the negotiations, but you have a problem with us knowing?

Because, despite what anti-tpp folks claim, corporations are not writing it, nor are they part of the negotiations. They may have provided their wish list ... just as the unions and environmental groups did.

I don't have a problem with We D. People knowing what's in the agreement ... I just think there should be an agreement for We D. People to consider.

[marym625]

268. I will respond to you in the morning

But no, in most cases that is not my negotiating experience.

I have to leave right now. Just didn't want you to think I was not going to answer

[1StrongBlackMan]

276. Not a problem ...

we do have lives outside of the internet.

[marym625]

298. In reply

We do know that corporations have access and we don't. 600 of them, including Halliburton

http://sojo.net/blogs/2012/06/29/insider-list
http://www.flushthetpp.org/tpp-corporate-insiders/

The second link refers to the first but it shows everything without having to download the list.  This is common knowledge and not disputed

National security that would be affected by the TPP should be an issue.  Which is exactly why we should know before it is agreed upon, not after.  If the agreement allows for greater intrusion into personal and protected rights of individuals, we have every right to know this. If the agreement allows for greater deregulation of banking rules, we have the right to know this.

Additionally, I would like to quote Sen. Bob Casey, D-Penn. Well, more accurately, quote John Hudson quoting Casey:

Bob Casey (D-Penn.), who campaigned aggressively for Obama in 2008, also dismissed the national security argument in an interview with reporters. “Even if you could itemize a long list of benefits to TPP or any trade agreement, we can itemize a list of folks who don’t do so well,” he said. “This is a substantive debate about what happens to workers and wages.”

http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/04/24/democrats-skeptical-of-kerrys-pitch-for-global-trade/

An aside, I really don't understand how people can just have blind faith in anyone the way some people are with President Obama on this.  This is something that Bush pushed for and most Republicans want.  That should send red flags up all over the place.  The Republicans that have sworn to block Obama on everything are good with this.  Think about that.

A great interview by Amy Goodman on Democracy Now, quoting Rep Alan Grayson:

Now, I’m the first member of Congress to actually see any part of the TPP, even though 600 corporate lobbyists are, quote, "advisers" to the trade representative and they get to see everything. And I insisted they take that information to my office, and in return they told me I couldn’t take it with me, I couldn’t take it home, I couldn’t make notes on it, I couldn’t have my staff present. And here’s the kicker: They didn’t want me to discuss it with the media, the public or even other members of Congress. So it’s a farce. And it’s meant specifically to keep the information away from the American people, because if the American people knew what was going on, they’d recognize that it’s a punch to the face of the middle class in America.

http://m.democracynow.org/stories/15150

The above linked interview is worth the read/listen and links to many documents, interviews and blogs. One of the best is the Sierra Club expose on the Bilcon case.

Another good article, which focuses on an unprecedented meeting with Union leaders, community groups and Noble Laureate in economics, Joseph Stiglitz, states,

"One of the reasons you should know [the TPP] is important is that they’ve tried to get it passed without anyone knowing about it,” Stiglitz began. “And that should make you suspicious.” The bill’s backers “always say ... they’re going to create jobs. If that were really true, you’d expect the unions that represent the workers [affected by the bill] to be all in favor of it.”

Alluding to the 2008 financial crisis, he continued, “The people that are in favor [of TPP] are the people in Wall Street.”

Calling on community organizations and unions to ramp up the pressure, he explained that U.S. Trade Representative Michael Froman, an appointed government official responsible for negotiating the agreement, “comes from Citibank and does not represent workers or typical Americans—he represents a group of special interests. And that’s why the only way it is going to be defeated is if there is an outpouring of concern and … action.”

A fundamental component surrounding the TPP debate is the process by which the Obama administration is trying to have it approved called fast tracking, a procedure for Congressional approval of international trade treaties. Unlike the standard procedure to pass a bill, by which members of Congress debate and deliberate on specific provisions, fast tracking allows Congress to vote “up” or “down” on the trade agreement without making any amendments or opening any of the specific provisions.

You are correct that we do not know for sure who wrote the US proposed portions of the treaty.  That alone should set off warning bells.  But we do know that the corporations involved in the negotiations have input their objectives.  We do know that Citibank wrote part of the budget passed in 2014 that helped dismantle Dodd-Frank. Besides campaign finance, it has caused decrease in pensions:

It is worth examining how the process was rigged to push that budget deal through Congress over the weekend that contained Citibank-written derivative deregulation and all kinds of other goodies for the rich and powerful. That's because the "cromnibus" formula will be formalized in the next big deal, in a process called "fast track."

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/6344790

Don't forget,  the fast track of the TPP not only does not allow for any modifications or filibuster, it still keeps provisions secret.  A 90 day allowance for an up or down vote without analysis.  We trusted Clinton, we, unbelievably, trusted Bush, and don't forget that it was Bush that got us involved in this treaty, and we have paid dearly for that.  No more trade agreements that hurt Americans while helping corporations.

This response is already too long. I will stop now.

[Enthusiast]

83. Real nice, BO.

[URL=.html][IMG][/IMG][/URL]

[Skittles]

92. he has nothing to lose now

he can finally be himself

[jwirr]

95. All right so our own representatives are supposedly dishonest. So we all need to ask him the

ask him the questions directly. I will start and hopefully others will add to the list.

Is there a clause in this treaty that allows corporations to take countries to an international court to sue for profits they have lost because of a law of the country? Is this clause not about sovereignty? Can this international court override the laws of a country?

[PumpkinAle]

100. What happened to that wonderful man

we elected for his first term in 2008?

I can't help thinking that we have been hoodwinked.

The repugs have obstructed, obstructed, obstructed Obama and what he has stood for and now suddenly he and the repugs are in step.

This is no deal for America, Obama knows it and Elizabeth Warren knows it - sadly they are on different sides.

[marym625]

193. The FISA vote was a clue we ignored

[onecaliberal]

101. So the gentleman who refuses to tell the American people exactly what

is contained in that bill has the audacity to call Warren, a liar.... I hope she comes blasting back with both barrels. I'm so sick of the people who want to serve us shit dinner and expect us to lop it up and say thank you without complaint.

[Agony]

103. I'm a stakeholder… send me the pdf

then we can talk, otherwise, fuck it.

[alarimer]

107. No, YOU are dishonest.

There is no amount of lipstick that will adequately cover the pig that is the TPP.

[Jamastiene]

110. I cannot believe THIS is what he decided to go to bat for. n/t

[Cryptoad]

119. Red Meat!

Hell Im still trying to figure out why anyone would ever think Obama was a Progressive.........

[LondonReign2]

321. Hope and Change? Instance that he would renegotiate NAFTA?

Claims he would offer a public option? That he would roll back the Bush tax cuts? Etc., etc.?

[Cryptoad]

322. You never looked at the people,,,,

Obama surrounded himself with? All Politicians will say anything and any given time, but whom they keep close tells the tale!

[LondonReign2]

324. True. It was an error on my part, I was sucked in

I'm curious though given your avatar...what do you make of the people Hillary keeps close?

[Cryptoad]

327. She aint no Progressive........

but she is more Progressive than any GOP AssClown Candidate in the race! And I will support, work for and vote for the most Progressive viable Candidate in the Race!

[LondonReign2]

328. Thanks, helpful clarification

[drynberg]

121. Liz is telling the truth and it hurts Obama...she ain't playing the "right" way...Thanks, Elizabeth.

[George II]

122. Disingenuous subject - impling he singled her out

Don't forget he DID say this, too!

“The one that gets on my nerves the most is the notion that this is a ‘secret’ deal,” Obama said. “Every single one of the critics who I hear saying, ‘this is a secret deal,’ or send out emails to their fundraising base saying they’re working to prevent this secret deal, can walk over today and read the text of the agreement. There’s nothing secret about it.”

But if you hate Obama it makes good press to present it like this.

[quakerboy]

124. *Someone* is being dishonest, thats for sure.

I suppose I could get all 5th grade and make up some rhyme like "he who accused it loosed it" or "he who decried it lied it".

But the truth is I trust Warren more than I trust Obama when it comes to US trade policy. So, in the presence of a shroud of non transparency in regard to this deal, lacking any facts aside from the he said she said, I'm going to give her credence, which means statements like this only harm his credibility in my book.

[KittyWampus]

126. Silly me, I thought you meant Manny for a blatantly bullshit thread title and OP.

[Phlem]

127. Is he Third Way Yet.

Or is he still a progressive?

Personally, he told us in his acceptance speech that he was a "New Democrat". Combining that and his current actions, can we agree that he's Third Way and that Hillary is too.

Remember the Obama that was campaigning for POTUS was all "Populist" too, until he was elected.

I new shit like this was going to happen and has happened.

Maybe America needs a new pair of prescription lenses see we can better analyze the human wanting to run the country and affect the world.

Sorry Manny this isn't directed at you. I blew a rivet when I read this.

[ozone_man]

204. He always was.

He never was a progressive as he said up front, but that is not what people wanted to hear. They thought they heard something else in his speeches, and he's quite good at that.

[Phlem]

256. Thank You,

I had to ask cause Hillary's progressive too.

[stillwaiting]

128. Obama's decided to spend a little of his political capital on this issue I see! nt

[Marr]

130. Remember when Obama thought his mic was off and was overheard saying

he'd have so much more 'flexibility' in his second term? His sycophants absurdly assured everyone that meant he'd be a real liberal then.

Well, this is his real 'don't need your vote anymore' agenda; a big 'fuck you' to everyone but the 1%.

[840high]

144. Yes I do. Yes it is.

[BeanMusical]

282. +1

[Truthteller3562]

131. The sad thing is

he can say anything he likes about the base because he knows that no matter what we are all going to vote Democrat every time.

[4now]

133. This post is dishonest

Too bad you have to lie to get attention.

[Buzz Clik]

135. +1

[Bobbie Jo]

150. Par for this course.

It doesn't matter, he knows his audience.

[Surya Gayatri]

169. Playing to his base...

[Buzz Clik]

134. Nice headline, Manny. A bit dishonest on your part, don't you think?

[mimi85]

267. Yep, it brings all the drama queens out.

And I'm not talking about sexuality.

[raindaddy]

138. On the up side...

I'm starting to believe the TPP and the way that it was handled will be a tipping point. And hopefully the exposure and the end of the of the third way...

[Oilwellian]

145. I'm thinking the same thing, raindaddy

The corporate loving Third Way Democrats are glowing in neon. Thanks for exposing them to the nation, Obama! It's time to bring on some primaries! LOL

[raindaddy]

149. He could've probably gotten away with this....

with the nation's moderates Oilwellian. They tend to believe what they hear on the news and if it's not on TV it's not happening. But if he thought he could pull this off with progressives, I'm thinking he miscalculated...

[grasswire]

300. this might be the moment when the man behind the curtain is revealed.

....or the scenery comes down. What is that quote?

[raindaddy]

304. In the past his response to the Republicans when they contested an issue...

was to reach out and compromise, even with core issues like Bush's tax cuts for the rich, single payer and Social Security.

Interesting his defensive thin skinned attitude toward his own party when it comes to another corporate friendly job killing trade agreement. Where's the, I'm always ready to reach out and meet you halfway Obama now? Looks like it was easier for him to tell the left they were going to need to comprise their ideals for the sake of unity than it is for him to tell the "man behind the curtain".

[840high]

140. Mr. President - stop blowing smoke

up my arse. I no longer trust you.

[Buns_of_Fire]

141. Dear Mr. President; This is a secret deal.

This is a secret deal.
This is a secret deal.
This is a secret deal.
This is a secret deal.
This is a secret deal.
This is a secret deal.
This is a secret deal.
This is a secret deal.
I'm sorry if that annoys you. I'm sure you didn't mean it. So, is tomorrow at nine a good time for us peons to have a glimpse of the draft without having to rely on Wikileaks?
Thanking you in advance.
Yours.....

[ozone_man]

208. Works for me!

Tomorrow!

[AzDar]

142. A man I once thought honorable, now seems mean and desperate...

Kinda makes one wonder what the payoff is ?

[dpatbrown]

146. Message

I totally agree with you. KEEP his feet to the fire. Progressives have sent him a long overdue message: we are sick, sick of the control the greedy rich have over our country, and over ourselves. There is no difference between a Republican adoring corporations or a Democrat adoring corporations.

[A Simple Game]

151. Mr. President, if you keep backing this so viciously and dishonestly

you will cause the Democrats to lose the 2016 Presidential election.

[marym625]

166. I am thoroughly ashamed of President Obama

What a horrendous way to play this terrible game.

K&R Manny. If he is so proud of the TPP, fight with proof, not accusations that can't be proved.

And by the way, who exactly are these people/companies that Elizabeth Warren, et al, that will be donating all this money because they stood up for the American people.

This is complete bullshit. Unconscionable

[MannyGoldstein]

168. She also raises tons of money anyway

There's simply no significant financial motivation for her to go at the President. As you say, no big bucks from corporations and oligarchs, and she raises plenty enough playing it safer.

A huge risk.

Taken because she's mad as hell, and she's not putting up with it anymore.

[marym625]

174. Thank god for her. Or whatever caused her to be who she is

Decency. That is what she has. Common decency.


I am really angry.

[WillyT]

173. Hey Manny... What's Your Best Guess...

I'm thinking, by the way he's behaving, that Obama just might be, in private...

With this much resistance from the base...

Throwing the Rahm Bombs around.

F***ing R**ards !!!

[fadedrose]

179. Maybe the President wants the Senators

to make up their own minds without constituents influencing them. I guess that's what he means about the TPP not being secret - not as far as congress goes..

Makes sense, a little bit.

Elizabeth Warren will not be mad at the President. He will smile and say something disarming and she will be charmed, just like most of us....

[Jesus Malverde]

180. Circular firing squad...nt

[SusanCalvin]

183. Disgusting. nt

[wundermaus]

185. The pot calling the kettle black...

Is not a racist slur... but it is in this case accurate and appropriate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_pot_calling_the_kettle_black

[still_one]

207. Depends on the context, and frankly there are better ways to express

oneself to avoid any misunderstanding

[wundermaus]

284. Alas, you may indeed be right.

Your response to my post demonstrates that all too well.
There are over 200 posts on this thread that say better what I was trying to express.
Read them instead, and ignore my post.

[still_one]

293. I wasn't really trying to be a jerk, and no I didn't read all the posts in this thread. thanks

[wundermaus]

317. Never crossed my mind that you were anything

more or less a jerk than me.

I did not read all the posts on this thread either... but I did get the general trend of it.

Carry on!

[NaturalHigh]

192. Frankly I truest Senator Warren more than President Obama on this.

[elehhhhna]

201. I'm over this guy. when has he called out creeps like that?

[cantbeserious]

214. I'm Ready For Oligarchy - Are You? - Support Obama On TPP - Elect HRC To Continue The Charade

[stonecutter357]

224. hyperbolic nonsense.

[DonCoquixote]

225. truly depressing

Though I doubt that Hillary will change any of it.

[randome]

226. Sorry for your loss, Manny.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]"The whole world is a circus if you know how to look at it."
Tony Randall, 7 Faces of Dr. Lao (1964)[/center][/font][hr]

[ucrdem]

261. .

[SwankyXomb]

230. Who had today in the pool

as the date that President Obama came out as a full-blown Republican?

[JEB]

232. Why don't the unions and the citizen/consumers

have a seat at the negotiation table? The game is rigged. No single payer people allowed in the room during health care plan. I see a pattern.

[nationalize the fed]

243. uh...allowed in the room? THEY WERE ARRESTED!!!!!!!!!

Almost everyone "forgets" this crucial fact- which, if done by Republicans would have caused total outrage.

MAX BAUCUS HAD SINGLE PAYER ADVOCATES ARRESTED AT A HEARING.

Please read that again.

Its no wonder why most (D)'s blank this out. It's one of the most ugly things to ever happen in the Capitol. Period. Some of us WILL NOT LET THIS BE FORGOTTEN. That's what calling people racists does.

Baucus’s Raucous Caucus: Doctors, Nurses and Activists Arrested Again for Protesting Exclusion of Single-Payer Advocates at Senate Hearing on Healthcare

Advocates of single-payer universal healthcare — the system favored by most Americans — continue to protest their exclusion from discussions on healthcare reform. On Tuesday, five doctors, nurses and single-payer advocates were arrested at a Senate Finance Committee hearing, bringing the total number of arrests in less than a week to thirteen. We speak with two of those arrested: Single Payer Action founder Russell Mokhiber and Dr. Margaret Flowers of Physicians for a National Health Program. ...includes rush transcript...
http://www.democracynow.org/2009/5/13/baucus_raucus_caucus_doctors_nurses_and

take 2 minutes and watch. No amount of "forgetting" will wipe this from the history books.

The Democratic Party had single payer advocates ARRESTED AT A HEARING. Then, went on to pass a law that requires everyone to buy health insurance (without a public option promised by Obama) for the rest of their lives. Will they be able to pay the deductible? Max Baucus doesn't care.

[JEB]

247. Working people and their interests don't have a seat at the table.

Democrats like Max Baucus are paid to insure our silence. Disgusting beyond tolerance.

[sabrina 1]

237. Has he ever called Republicans Dishonest? Are we seeing the real Obama now, or is he being

pressured so hard by those powerful people who appear to be running this country, he's getting desperate.

First the Third Way tried to smear her but the backlash was so great they won't talk about why they made such an huge mistake anymore.

Then they sent Dean out to tell her to tone down her rhetoric, THAT backfired also and only lost Dean a lot of his credibility.

Now Obama is attacking her. He should remember that the people are on HER overwhelmingly, on the TPP and her supporters are only going to increase the more they try to attack her.

Shameful behavior from him, he is showing a whole other side of himself and it's giving us a clue as to why Democrats are so angry at him right now. Selfish also, these Senators have to run again. Now that he's finished running, he doesn't seem to care much about his own party and/or the people.

[JEB]

251. Somebody must be awfully afraid of Elizabeth Warren.

[GoneFishin]

253. I don't think I can remember him calling them out for their lies. I always wanted him to.

He seems desperate to me too.

[SMC22307]

238. Remember The Only Adult in the Room's "please like me" meeting with Republicans?

Yeah. But he's a master at turning on the arrogant bastard toward his fellow Democrats...those who put him into office. Why is that?

[Vattel]

240. Obama's dishonesty here is painfully obvious.

No one is claiming that congresspersons can't see the deal, and he knows that. Why doesn't he address the real issue, namely, whether it should be secret--i.e., not available to the public--right now? That would require serious discussion and not stupid talking points.

[MisterP]

244. this is actually VERY corrosive for the party

the choice is between a party that people choose to represent their grinding needs, or a machine that takes in money and for the very most part rewards contributors--and if the people who have only votes to give don't like it, there's the door/President Jeb

[GoneFishin]

250. K & R

[ucrdem]

255. Let's just say that you're getting warmer. nt

[Scootaloo]

257. Am i the only one who finds it curious...

That the very same people snarling and snapping and growling about the absolute need to Support Democrats No mattr What™ are also first in line to throw every democrat under the bus, and back over them a few times, if those democrats - and it seems there are quite a lot of them - disagree with the president on something?

[ucrdem]

258. There's disagreement and then there's swiftboating.

Just thought I'd note that.

[Scootaloo]

262. Please show an example of "swiftboating"

And do remember you're talking to someone who has a very good memory and was very involved in the 2004 election (well, as much as a broke alaskan could have been)

[Puglover]

294. From the poster you are engaging in a similar thread a few days ago.

" it's a pretty sorry spectacle to see educated adults like Sanders and Warren running around like a couple of Black Helicopter-fearing nutjobs"

I doubt you will be hearing back anytime soon.

As to your post. I wonder that everyday. BOTH of my elected Senators, Franken and Klobuchar are against this as well. I suppose I should imagine them under the bus as well.

But hey why listen to either of these two Democrats when the experts on DU tell me otherwise.

[QC]

299. That's a shit statement,

as a departed and quickly returned DUer was once fond of saying.

[winter is coming]

285. I'm finding it pretty entertaining.

I'm also loving the attitude that Obama can't possibly be misleading us, and therefore several other Dems must be. "Everybody else is lying" is a True Believer argument, bordering on conspiracy theory.

[neighbor tim]

259. I like Elizabeth but I believe in President Obama

I think we're better as a country since Obama became president and his terms not over yet. And then it's Hillary time!

[spooky3]

274. "Every single one of the critics" -- but does that include the public?

Is the President channeling ex-Pres. Nixon in playing word games here? It's my understanding that Sen. Warren is concerned that the American people in general can't see this bill--only members of Congress, etc., can. If that's correct, he is not responding to her concern.

[nikto]

286. Now, The Truth about Obama comes out, and it's not pretty

[CentralMass]

289. I will trust Elizabeth Warren's opinion on this over the likes of Mich Mcconnell.

[Helen Borg]

290. Perhaps Obama has been lying to us all along?...

[w4rma]

291. That's the end of Obama's "legacy". He can go screw himself for all I care, at this point. (nt)

[AgingAmerican]

295. As opposed to the GOP who back him on this?

What a corporate tool he has turned out to be.

[4dsc]

296. WTF is going on here

its bad enough they cannot make it public but this has gone too far.

Warren or Sanders gets my vote come election time.

[ann---]

301. Obama is

getting nasty. The truth hurts him. What a shame he still has more than
a year left to screw more things up.

[brush]

302. You posted this 5 times yesterday

Obama never said Warren was dishonest, in fact, in the quotes he didn't mention her name. He said there were some dishonest comments about the TPP.

Be HONEST yourself if you're, as it seems, going to continue re-posting this incendiary vitriol.

As with the ACA there was a lot of staunch opposition to it here on DU that has been proven wrong.

I am not for or against it as I don't know enough about it but I don't like to see inaccurate posts on it either masquerading as fact. Let's see how it plays out with the TPP.

Many don't know that the TPP, first formulated in the Bush era, was not started by the US and will go thru with or without our participation.

[Bobbie Jo]

311. Just look at these threads

Honesty isn't necessary. This guy could post that the sun failed to rise today, and the mob would predictably crawl over one
another to confirm it as FACT.

Great post!! K&R!! Love yr posts!



I used to think most DU'ers were a cut above your average Fox viewer, but some of these folks are just....gone.

This is the kind of stuff that makes me wonder: WTF?? :
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6548590

No, as you can clearly see, truth is rather optional. The OP knows this better than anybody, and plays it for all it's worth.

Pathetic and sad, really.

[bl968]

305. free trade

Free trade is simply a race to the bottom for our country in pay, environmental protection, worker rights, worker safety. It's not a good thing for this country. It's a good thing for the bankers though.

[DirkGently]

306. Not a "secret." Just "classified."

WHO'S being "dishonest," again?

[bl968]

307. If Elizabeth wants to spike the bankers and top 1%

Run for president in 2016. They forced me to take up the mantel to provide a real choice for the average hardworking Americans.

[L0oniX]

315. OFFS Manny ...be honest for change ...I have links to the trade deal right here for all to see...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/09/hell-froze-over-michigan_n_4568659.html

http://nation.time.com/2014/01/08/its-official-hell-has-frozen-over/

[Orsino]

329. This sounds so much like the rhetoric of the Right...

...impugning motives and failing to provide substance.