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Logical
(22,457 posts)NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)That community needs an organizational body.
...I'm not suggesting by any means that the people were unjustified in expressing their rage, not at all.
I am suggesting that this particular type of act has more negative repercussions than any good.
The negatives are lasting: the businesses may not return, there are fewer places to shop, fewer jobs, property values drop.
Possibly worst of all, it perpetuates the myth that these poor folks, victims of the system, somehow caused this and that they deserved it.
An organizer would have helped them channel their energy and righteous anger into an organized protest, gotten plenty of media, pro-bono lawyers, GOTV efforts, etc.
That this happened at all is an indication that they need to organize. I maintain that while they were right to be angry, the destruction of stores does more harm than good.
I'd be happy to listen to any explanation of how this was a helpful thing toward righting the wrongs against that community.
But nobody seems to have any.
Algernon Moncrieff
(5,780 posts)"Freddie Gray had a long police record, and this rioting shows the kind of people we're dealing with here."
It takes focus off the pattern of violence against black men, and instead becomes a discussion about we've failed to support the police.
Logical
(22,457 posts)looting and rioting? Do you give a shit about them?
951-Riverside
(7,234 posts)They's a-lootin' and a stirrin' up trouble. We can't have that you hear?
Its amazing how much threads and post expressing outrage over insured property being taken from a billion dollar corporation but I've never seen the same outrage over all the black men being beaten or shot by these out of control police.
I will be the first to say I don't support the thug culture on the streets or the police department, looting just like bending a guy in half breaking his spine are both wrong but the level of outrage over looting and the lack of outrage over police murdering people astounds me.
Logical
(22,457 posts)Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)Logical
(22,457 posts)Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)Sorry
Logical
(22,457 posts)Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)Believe me, they're definitely more angry about the death of their son than the destruction of private property.
Pay attention.
Logical
(22,457 posts)Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)...now you want to pretend they're more concerned about private property than the life of their son?
Go sell that somewhere else.
I ain't buying.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)Logical
(22,457 posts)romanic
(2,841 posts)Are you for real?
morningfog
(18,115 posts)the mayor, the black community, the business owners and the black youth are not interested parties?
brooklynite
(93,844 posts)Or have the looters destroyed the life savings of someone who lives in the neighborhood?
I'm sure it will teach the owners a valuable lesson.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Can't get any sort of loan without insurance, which means being in business and uninsured is extremely unlikely.
After all, without insurance one slip-n-fall puts them out of business too.
Egnever
(21,506 posts)Will they still be able to be profitable? Or will that destroy the thin margins they were working with to begin with?
jeff47
(26,549 posts)The fact that we're discussing business insurance right now demonstrates just how fucked up our society has become.
Egnever
(21,506 posts)They just wont reopen.
Which has absolutely no effect on me but the community will feel the loss. Can you point to any positive effects that will come from this for that community?
The looters just screwed themselves and their community.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Your concern: A large multinational corporation might not serve this community's pharmaceutical needs!
Their concern: Murder by the police is wrong.
One of these might be a tad more important than the other....
Egnever
(21,506 posts)Both are wrong
Both destroy the community.
Jobs desperately needed there will be gone forever because of this and while it is not as dramatic nor as tragic as the loss of someones lives it will cause a lot of damage long term in the city they live in.
One does not excuse the other.
The fact that you cant see what long term damage will be done to this community because of this and think its some sort of game of one is worse than the other leads me to believe you are not thinking clearly on this.
Both are horrible for that community both are destructive to the people who live there.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)That is where you are being incredibly short-sighted.
The problem is not the rioters. The rioters are the result of the problem. The problem is the failure of government to do its job, which in this case resulted in the murder of a man.
No murder, no riots.
Also, no consequences (such as riots), no change to the government status quo. A bit of paid vacation time and then back on duty.
Until the next murder. And the next. And the next. And the next. And the next.
Egnever
(21,506 posts)Doesn't change the fact that they are destroying their own community nor the fact that they will be paying for this long into the future no matter how righteous you think it is.
Once again you seem to be stuck on blame. It isn't about blame it is about leaving your own community in a much worse situation than it was before. The people who used those stores for their every day needs will not be better off tomorrow.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Really? I'm the one that's stuck? When you keep trying to chew out these particular rioters and treat the failure of government as a "blame game"?
Yes, government really shouldn't have done that for the last 40 or so years.
But, according to you, this is only about this one riot.
Yep, that's the consequences of government failing to do its most basic duties.
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)I assume you'll be there to help?
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Perhaps we should be more concerned about killing people than the lamentations of business.
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)But the communities these folks live in. How can they expect a better life if they destroy their communities?
jeff47
(26,549 posts)to control the police force.
So, how many dead should they ignore for the sake of their community?
DURHAM D
(32,595 posts)acts of civil disobedience (riots).
There goes that theory.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Why is that?
Logical
(22,457 posts)Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Logical
(22,457 posts)people were noticing when they were protesting.
When it turns to rioting and looting then the whole story changes. People forget about the murder of Gray!
Even the BLACK MAYOR of Baltimore called them "thugs". Because they are.
I am one of the biggest critics of the police on this board. But burning down your neighborhood does not help your cause.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)This thread is the first time you have said a single thing even tangentially related to Freddie gray. And it's to snarl and snap about stuff. That's what motivates you to action, stuff getting broken. A man was also broken, and his murder covered up and excused by his murderers who control the system (which is evidently also broken) but that didn't seem to enter your radar.
Logical
(22,457 posts)tied together. If you thinks the actions of the thugs tonight helps find Grays killers you are as clueless as I think.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)It was completely below your radar. A store gets knocked over though and suddenly it's forefront on your mind. I find it fascinating that a man nearly having his head torn off by police officers is completely beneath your notice, but broken windows and some stolen merchandise are what set you off.
Logical
(22,457 posts)Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)So sure. Win all you want, if that's what you want to call it, mr. Sheen.
Egnever
(21,506 posts)Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)It literally took a riot to make him pay any attention whatsoever.
Egnever
(21,506 posts)Cause it took me all of two seconds to find this.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025430585#post4
ram2008
(1,238 posts)Of course everyone knows that Freddie Gray was murdered. But rioting SOLVES NOTHING, and will cause the deaths of many other innocents. And the end result will be nothing.
NoJusticeNoPeace
(5,018 posts)having a family member beaten or killed for being white, I cant imagine that, no telling what I would do...
others, who can sit back and pretend to be "all that", no idea what they would do
ram2008
(1,238 posts)Just plain unacceptable behavior which destroys any public sympathy for the cause. Destroying businesses, destroying property and stealing livelihood from others is wrong, no matter who does it.
NOLALady
(4,003 posts)They were being murdered before the rioting. In the end, they will be murdered after the rioting. Police brutality has gotten worse. It will not get better any time soon.
Riots have nothing to do with the murders of unarmed citizens.
Major Hogwash
(17,656 posts)Who destroy their own community on a daily basis!!
jeff47
(26,549 posts)NightWatcher
(39,343 posts)And the lots will sit vacant and attract more problems.
Riots just don't solve anything, esp when you destroy your own community.
NoJusticeNoPeace
(5,018 posts)Good thing it isnt white people on the receiving end of racism and jim crow and bigotry and hate and police violence at the hands of black people for 200 yrs, there would be no Baltimore to burn down, woulda been burned down 100 yrs ago
awoke_in_2003
(34,582 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)CTyankee
(63,769 posts)emotions of he community. She is black and she made a good case, IMO. I guess there are people who just want to stir up trouble for their own reasons...
NOLALady
(4,003 posts)She said that when she arrived in town, there were white men hurling racial slurs and trying to mow them down with their cars. They were attacking blacks until some black men intervened.
VScott
(774 posts)Has any CVS rep stated that?
Does CVS even own that location, building or is it leased property?
I wouldn't fault them at all if they said fuck it, and decided not to rebuild.
Even if they do rebuild, it's going to be a long time before it's up and running.
customerserviceguy
(25,183 posts)When I was a kid, I saw how the riots of the late 1960's (after the civil rights acts of the mid-Sixties were passed, mind you) destroyed the cores of many major cities. It took decades for parts of them to come back, and often, it involved tax breaks for wealthy people to get no-lose investments in businesses to replace those that had been burned out.
This rioting is an attack on the community where it is happening, and it really doesn't touch rich folks in the burbs. It makes it less likely that middle class people from the burbs are going to have anything to do with going to the city.
A lot of people here must have the impression that the Sixties were a fun time of revolutionary change, I saw them lead to the election of Richard Nixon, and that was with George Wallace pulling off the votes of the worst of the racists.
TheCowsCameHome
(40,161 posts)Nothing good comes of this.
SoCalDem
(103,856 posts)Companies do not "have" to build anywhere .. They come to a community IF it's safe to do so.. and if it looks like a profitable thing to do.
romanic
(2,841 posts)never came back. A majority of those businesses were black owned as well.
Riots don't mean anything if communities aren't rebuilt and the people affected aren't uplifted from the destruction of their community. Black lives do matter, Gray's life mattered too; the black neighborhoods and the livelihood of black people matter as well, I think that's what some are forgetting while excusing the outsiders for looting and setting things on fire.
CTyankee
(63,769 posts)840high
(17,196 posts)GusBob
(7,286 posts)If the CVS is rebuilt, will the people who looted it or destroyed it, shop there? I wonder what goes thru their minds and/or conscience when they walk thru the door
ETA: and on the flip side, the people that work there, if they continue to do so,,,,would they ever look at a shopper and say to themselves 'geez that looks like the guy I saw on tv during the looting'
Response to GusBob (Reply #24)
Post removed
Aerows
(39,961 posts)I wouldn't rebuild there. I'd find somewhere else to rebuild my store.
The looters probably weren't even residents of the local neighborhood.
RandySF
(57,614 posts)Many businesses left for good after the Detroit riot of 1969.
longship
(40,416 posts)Look it up. I lived in the city then. LBJ called out the National Guard and I saw jeeps with machine guns driving past my parents' house. I remember smelling the smoke even miles away. The whole sky was black with smoke.
The next year the Detroit Tigers won the World Series and everybody was dancing in the streets, white and black.
RandySF
(57,614 posts)The businesses still didn't return.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)and rioting is not an effective way to "get your message across."
It's violence against the people who live in your community right along with you.
Where are you or a family member going to get your prescription filled, now, after the local pharmacy got looted, torched and destroyed?
What do you do when this area becomes a "pharmaceutical desert"?
I'd think twice about rebuilding there. Rioting, looting and lawlessness does NO ONE in the community any good.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Aerows
(39,961 posts)I also don't think looting and burning down the local pharmacy is a positive for the community.
You can protest things without destroying parts of said community.
What about the person that can't get their insulin? Are they a victim of the police, or a victim of the idiots that burned down and destroyed that resource?
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Aerows
(39,961 posts)that is for certain. Perhaps unseen victims, but victims nonetheless.
I'm surprised you took this perspective, jeff47. You used to be so rational when we would debate about whether or not Snowden should have released the information he did.
I guess now it's okay for diabetics to drop dead or people to have heart attacks because they can't get their meds?
To say I'm puzzled by your 180° is an understatement.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Nope, I had the temerity to point out that what he released did not live up to the claims of his fans. Such as pointing out he only managed to release one program spying on US Citizens, instead of "The NSA is reading everything!!!!".
You interpreted that as whether or not he should have leaked it, instead of wanting to discuss reality over Greenwald's dreams.
How many dead black men should we pile up in order to not interfere with a multinational corporation extorting billions from diabetics?
That's because you've been so busy trying to stuff me into a pigeon hole of your own creation that you didn't try to understand what I actually wrote.
The status quo is a constant infliction of violence on the people. All people. The murders inflicted upon minorities are just the most obvious. Sometimes, that violence will be met with violence. Today it's Baltimore. Tomorrow it will be somewhere else. And it will keep going on as long as our party keeps fighting to maintain the status quo.
Now everyone line up and pass the next "trade" deal. Can't upset CVS. They've got money to make.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)and I don't like people that become dead because they can't get insulin, or whatever medication.
I'm consistent.
I despise NSA spying because they work hand in hand with the DEA and local LEOs to prosecute people, frame them, set them up, or otherwise use extra-judicial means to incarcerate people.
That's what I didn't understand.
In this case, consistency isn't the hobgoblin of the narrow mind - it's the hallmark of a thinking one.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Be it starvation from safety net cuts, "trade" deals that destroy the lives of anyone not in the 1%, or police officers getting away with murder.
But government has to actually fuck over people. Not what government could possibly think about someday doing, but has so far shown fastidious attention to our laws (such as they are).
The reason I appear more "militant" now is the vast number of people who care more about continuing the status quo despite the constant fucking over of the people. Such as cheering for the latest status quo candidate we "must" vote for.
If it takes a riot to get people to notice the status quo isn't working, so be it. I'd prefer peaceful means, but peaceful means have a terrible track record the last 30 years. Too many that grew up screaming for change settled into maintaining the status quo because it helped them. "Don't cut my Social Security" became the rallying cry. Instead of "Make everyone's lives better".
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)Communities. This kind of crap is one reason why.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)safeinOhio
(32,527 posts)They should go to the areas that all the cops live in and riot and burn everything down.
realFedUp
(25,053 posts)Wondering tonight where they will get their meds tomorrow.
Texasgal
(17,029 posts)I am so confused by all of this support for looting!
Throd
(7,208 posts)realFedUp
(25,053 posts)That looting and fir will close that store, maybe indefinitely to customers, employees and the appearance of the neighborhood. Good luck to those kids getting condoms.
This is my problem with this, and why in the hell are people sticking up for burning down a local pharmaceutical store that members of the community depend on?
Warpy
(110,900 posts)were never reopened, most notably grocery stores.
Looting your own neighborhood businesses is self defeating, no matter who owns them. The fact is that they don't reopen most of the time.
And Freddie Gray is still dead.
I don't know what the answer to police forces acting like occupying armies is but I strongly suspect burning down a CVS in your own neighborhood isn't it.
jamzrockz
(1,333 posts)Come back to what? If I was a Baltimore resident, I would be looking for my way out of town now.
Throd
(7,208 posts)realFedUp
(25,053 posts)Certainly their choice"
SickOfTheOnePct
(7,290 posts)Those damned senior citizens, screw 'em; it's their fault Freddie Gray is dead, and burning their new senior center down will sure show the police!
Oktober
(1,488 posts)One does not excuse the other...
Adenoid_Hynkel
(14,093 posts)the discussion has moved from Freddie Gray