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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsCNN has the Texas shootings on now
about the Mohammad drawings or pictures..
It's over but they promise to have more on at the top of the hour, I guess midnight.
Gothmog
(145,554 posts)It is not a big town
fadedrose
(10,044 posts)to this little town.
I know there's free speech, but these people are committed to keeping the name of The Prophet sacred. It seems such a small thing to ask to keep from getting killed. Keeping the artists alive is disobeying their religious rules I would imagine.
eloydude
(376 posts)Look up AFDI. American Freedom Defense Initiative - That's Pamela Geller's crackpot group.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)linuxman
(2,337 posts)The shooting is entirely the fault of the shooters. Just because someone did something a group of assholes didn't like, you can't fault them as a responsible party.
blm
(113,091 posts)Why would you say that if you didn't see the event as inciting a violent reaction?
linuxman
(2,337 posts)I can read about a girl walking around Pakistan without a veil, denying suitors, or declaring her atheism and know an acid attack/ other sort of violence is soon to come too, but it doesn't mean that she was inciting violenc either. Doing something violent assholes don't like isn't inciting violence. Period.
blm
(113,091 posts)They SAW it coming, too.
They know THEY would have shown up with their rifles if an extremist Islamic group held a Bible burning event to taunt them.
They share the same mindset.
Except people desecrate bibles and mock Christianity all the time. How many died over Piss Christ? Here in Afghanistan about a month ago, a woman was beat and stoned to death based on a RUMOUR of her burning a quaran. Your fantasy of your out group showing up to kill Muslims with rifles is fantastical.
Inciting violence isn't what you seem to think it us.
Is an atheist telling a Muslim that there is no God inciting violence?
Is a girl in a low cut top inciting rape?
Is a liberal at the RNC inciting a beating?
Is a gay kid in public school inciting teasing or worse?
Do you know what IS inciting violence? Clerics and imams who tell the date full to kill those who mock islam. That is inciting violence. Drawing pictures of a super special dead man isn't.
What you're doing is a victim blaming.
blm
(113,091 posts)in the same highly advertised manner, would get a similar visit from gun toting RW fundamentalist extremists.
NOT unexpected. As you, yourself, previously stated.
linuxman
(2,337 posts)blm
(113,091 posts)like this moron who didn't even know the difference between Islam and Sikh. 'Ragheads' are fair game to America's RW fundamentalist extremists.
http://www.jsonline.com/news/crime/reports-of-people-shot-at-sikh-temple-in-oak-creek-qc6cgc0-165059506.html
http://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/Series-of-Hate-Incidents-Targeting-Muslims-Reported-in-Chicago-Area-293012981.html
http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/2960:targeting-muslims#
razorman
(1,644 posts)the fact remains that, in this instance, it was the attackers who fired the first shots. Could be that they were simply suicidal, or did not realize that they were in Texas. Some results are indeed predictable.
blm
(113,091 posts)of other religions?
Yeah
you're right
.just a fantasy I concocted after spending the last 40 years paying attention newspapers.
linuxman
(2,337 posts)Were we not talking about people burning bibles and the reprisals by Christians for doing so?
I'll make this easy for you. Do what I did. Google "Man burns Bible" and peruse the many links that follow. Now, compile a list of the names of the Bible burners who were killed by Christians in turn.
Should be easy.
blm
(113,091 posts)and Army of God-type groups (who TRULY DO believe their nation and their religion is under assault) wouldn't show up at that heavily advertised extremist Muslim event crafted specifically to incite?
Heck - Bundy ranch speeches and paranoia incited the Millers to go out and kill law enforcement.
Some RW Christian fundie extremist would show up with guns targeting the RW Islamic extremist's carefully crafted (to incite their expected violent reaction) event.
This event was crafted by evil people to appeal to the worst instincts in their side and their targets. That is how they view each other - as targets to hurt. Because both believe their religions allow them to get away with their sociopathic behavior.
You are the one who moved the goalpost. Man burns Bible acts were individual acts nowhere near in scale to the heavily advertised, carefully crafted event put on by the Gellar group.
But this is so obvious. They wanted to provoke a reaction, and they got one. Screaming fire in a crowded theater????
linuxman
(2,337 posts)Drawing the prophet doesn't. For danger to come from that, a person must sit down and come to a conscious decision and plan of action.
Kissing your boyfriend (if you're a guy) will lead to violence in many places. Would you say that someone choosing to do so is being provocative? Are they wrong to do so?
Not really comparable.
LiberalAndProud
(12,799 posts)It is possible they got exactly the response they expected. Doesn't matter. Speech vs. violent retribution. In this country speech is protected. Always and whoever. Even assholes.
blm
(113,091 posts)certainly wasn't unexpected by the poster to whom I replied.
fadedrose
(10,044 posts)Will put her in search....thanks.
American Freedom is just that, and should end at the water's edge, or the front door. The Prophet is revered by Islamists here in the US as well as in the Mideast, and they don't hold with insults that Jesus gets that do not get Christians all excited.
Different rules for different folks. But inciting violence is not part of any religion. This is for nuts.
Whiskey Jim
(13 posts)It's 2015. You shouldn't have to don body armor to participate in a contest to draw a historical figure.
repukes think like that, while needing to be armed to go into a fast food joint
blm
(113,091 posts).
Skittles
(153,193 posts)yes INDEED
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)I think the group is a group if bigots but violence is wrong.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)We have, in this country, the right to free speech, we don't have the right to not be insulted.
Any religion is open to ridicule, be it speech, toons, whatever.
I may abhor the message, but I'll defend the right to deliver it.
X_Digger
(18,585 posts)kelly1mm
(4,734 posts)eloydude
(376 posts)But what if it was a setup arranged by Geller?
I know she's insane, but is she *THAT* insane?
kelly1mm
(4,734 posts)eloydude
(376 posts)Need more details about the dead suspects, before making the final judgement about the whole mess.
All we are doing is just speculating..... with no facts at hand right now...
kelly1mm
(4,734 posts)NobodyHere
(2,810 posts)seveneyes
(4,631 posts)Even crackpots have the right. Fuck the religious killing shit.
Raine1967
(11,589 posts)This isn't about free speech, it was blatant celebratory bigotry.
moondust
(20,006 posts)She was apparently also an inspiration to Anders Breivik, the mass murderer in Oslo in 2011.
Celebratory bigotry indeed.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)TexasTowelie
(112,417 posts)Bigger than a lot of cities and a suburb. Unless you pass the city limits sign you wouldn't know that you are anywhere but Dallas.
fadedrose
(10,044 posts)You two get together, but it's really irrevelent.
It's Texas, and 2 gunman were shot who were incited to violence because of some lady named Geller at some meeting for American Freedom of Speech that encourages its members to make fools of themselves and Mohammed regardless of the consequences. And one speaker at the meeting was on Al Quaida's hit list.
ScreamingMeemie
(68,918 posts)Please wait before going full force. NONE of our local news stations (you really should start there if you are going to "report" on this) are broadcasting that the gunmen were "incited to violence." You were already wrong on your body count and ID. Please stop and wait.
fadedrose
(10,044 posts)said that her group incites violence. Can't recall who it was. Read all the posts - there are several on the topic and have different aspects. American Free Speech or something like that.
And after the incident in Paris where Charlie Hebdo and others wee killed because of disrespect to the Prophet, I don't think I just pulled a rabbit out of a hat to assume that the pictures showing disrespect had something to do with the attempted "killings?"
And they showed a chart on TV with some guy's picture who is on the Al Quaida "Hit List" and he was a speaker at the meeting/show, whatever.
I did not make anything up, except calling them Jihadists. But that's the name given to people who seek revenge to those who besmirch the name of their Profit.
And somebody told me that the town was small, a bedroom community, and someone said,"by the way, it's not a small town."
Read all the posts and see if can't track down where the disinformation came from.
I recommended CNN because it was coming on, and it did. Somebody got the news from Fox, and I never never watch Fox...
Thank you for reading all of my posts. Now read everyone else's and let them know where they're wrong too.
Thank you for your corrections.
ScreamingMeemie
(68,918 posts)It wasn't a link to FOX news.
Speculation is what can often lead to more violence. Your posts are all up and down this thread while other people appear to have stopped posting misinformation. I suggest you stay tuned into the local CBS affiliate I've posted here for you.
In case you were worried I was singling you out,
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6616090
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6615938
fadedrose
(10,044 posts)as time went on I learned more. 11:01 was the first, and all I got was shooting in Texas, details coming up at midnight.. then people offered information that I didn't know yet... for instance, just now heard there were 200 people there. An hour ago, they said 100.
I'm done.
ScreamingMeemie
(68,918 posts)Thank you for not reporting on this anymore because inaccuracies can sometimes beget horrendous reactions before the truth is known.
tammywammy
(26,582 posts)Fox affiliates ? Fox News.
Regardless Googling "DFW news" would have provided you with more sources. Just like Googling "Garland, Texas" would have shown it's not a small town.
tammywammy
(26,582 posts)Please stop your bullshit made up reporting.
BTW, for anyone wanting the local reports I watch this station: http://www.fox4news.com/
okaawhatever
(9,462 posts)not the solution, she is part of the problem.
TexasTowelie
(112,417 posts)JaneyVee
(19,877 posts)fadedrose
(10,044 posts)Last edited Mon May 4, 2015, 12:32 AM - Edit history (1)
The following version of events was given by me because when Janey asked me, I really didn't know. Just heard about 2 killed. I assumed that the 2 were involved with the art contest, like with Charlie Hebdo.
Actually 2 gunmen were shot and killed in a car that may have had nothing to do with the meeting, repeat, MAY HAVE HAD ....
But by now, maybe they know...
The town may or may not have been small. Depends on what you call small, I guess.
All Wrong:
Some guys drawing or having pictures of Mohamed in a small town in Texas. Jihadists got wind of it, killed one guy and shot a couple - details on CNN at midnight.
Some lady named Geller belongs to some American Freedom Group that seems to incite people to violence.. this part was given to me by a DU'er, and I trust it.
JaneyVee
(19,877 posts)fadedrose
(10,044 posts)ScreamingMeemie
(68,918 posts)here's a local station. That's all they know so far. Not even sure it's related yet, although I wouldn't be surprised if it is.
http://dfw.cbslocal.com/
TexasTowelie
(112,417 posts)I have some posts from earlier that explain why the event was held:
Islam debate returns to Garland ISDs Culwell Center with Muhammad art event (April)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/107824864
$10K Muhammad Art and Cartoon Contest at Garland Site of Stand With the Prophet Conference (February)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/107823447
WATCH: Protesters surround conference put on by Texas Muslims: You are not Americans (January)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/107822943
Raine1967
(11,589 posts)ScreamingMeemie
(68,918 posts)They are not sure as of yet if the gunfire was related to the event or not, but it is definitely possible.
This is from the local news.
fadedrose
(10,044 posts)Details on now
ScreamingMeemie
(68,918 posts)BREAKING: SHOTS FIRED AT THE MUHAMMAD ART EXHIBIT IN GARLAND Two men pulled up in car and began firing. Garland PD returned fire, killing both suspects.
tammywammy
(26,582 posts)I posted at 9:28PM central, the correct details and that was at least 20 min since I heard about it.
Here's the station I watch: http://www.fox4news.com/
ScreamingMeemie
(68,918 posts)Because everyone knows CNN would know more.
tammywammy
(26,582 posts)tammywammy
(26,582 posts)TexasProgresive
(12,158 posts)It's part of Greater Dallas. If you didn't see signs you would not know you drove from one town to the next. One genormus urban blob.
ScreamingMeemie
(68,918 posts)fadedrose
(10,044 posts)They didn't say who was killed, but because of Hebdo, I assumed the guys drawing the pictures were the ones that the Islamists were mad at.
it makes more sense that the corrected way, that 2 guys in a car were shot.
There are a couple of posts in GD that think there was funny stuff going on because the security guards didn't look like security guards, and that Geller is trying to get folks all riled up with the Islamists.. I think Archae has one, not sure of the other...
I didn't bother to go back and correct because I was busy listening to the reports, which are confusing. They are still talking about it
now... But I will go back and fix. NO ONE gave me the information in the above post, but was typing fast and there was nothing that made sense.
If the guys were still in their car, how does anyone know who they were or what they intended?
fadedrose
(10,044 posts)they are checking the car for explosives.
One guard at the building was shot, and released from the hospital.
One of the speakers was on the Al Qaida hit list and was not harmed, nor were any of the 100 or so who were at the art show.
Still, American Freedom group or not, we respect that our blacks and browns don't want to be referred to as ..... I don't even want to type the N, and because if it so offensive to them, we don't do it, except for crazy racists.... Aren't there enough people to make fun of besides Mohammed?
ScreamingMeemie
(68,918 posts)They are suspects. Dead suspects, and this has been known for some time. The police are not saying much yet.
Whiskey Jim
(13 posts)Everyone has the right to be offended, nobody had the right to kill for the offense.
tammywammy
(26,582 posts)It wasn't a guard, it was a Garland ISD police officer.
You should delete your speculation.
liberal_at_heart
(12,081 posts)not. Talking about raping women for example. How many people here would defend the right to talk about raping women? There are people out there that would just love to piss Muslims off enough to pick a fight with them. They want the fight. Now any Muslims in the area will be fair game.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)that we don't want to be denigrated is of no concern to them nor to those who defend them. So your affectation that it's all fuzzy sweet words except for 'the crazy racists' will not work. And I never see you or any of the folks who defend religion when it gets violent being critical of the incitements offered daily by religion, from the Pope to the church down the street.
jaysunb
(11,856 posts)GGJohn
(9,951 posts)TexasTowelie
(112,417 posts)I've provided a run-up to this incident beginning with events in January.
Whiskey Jim
(13 posts)You seen to have a chicken and egg scenario.
metalbot
(1,058 posts)Ironically enough, organizers were upset about this and threatened to sue, but ultimately complied.
They had Garland SWAT on site as part of their paid security.
Skittles
(153,193 posts)yeah the organizers had extra security but the school had extra cops there
enid602
(8,652 posts)Would the scenario have been that much different if the venue had instead booked a well-advertised event meant to insult Christians? In Texas?
ScreamingMeemie
(68,918 posts)are know (per local news reports), so we will have to see whether your post is worthy for thought with regard to this situation.
What the news actually knows:
Shots fired
Guard hit
Two gunmen dead (no ID, no religious affiliation ID'd, nothing-in fact bodies haven't even been moved yet)
Gunmen were in car.
That's it.
Raine1967
(11,589 posts)It was a hate event organized by Pamela Geller.
Algernon Moncrieff
(5,790 posts)Draw-the-Prophet events are Muslin-baiting, I'll grant. HOWEVER
...it's no worse than the artist who put a crucifix in a jar of urine. No one killed him.
No one killed Sinead O'Connor for tearing up a photo of the Pope.
Flag burners are pretty universally despised, and they don't even get arrested, much less shot-at.
It's a Free Speech event inasmuch as no members of any faith have any right to resort to violence as a result of perceived insults to their deity.
Raine1967
(11,589 posts)This event was hoping for people to be killed.
Geller is no satirist. She is representative of a faith. She is not an artist.
Geller is a hate peddler. This was not about faith. It was a contest for people to draw pictures of Mohammed.
It was a contest.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)A bunch of fundamentalist Christians bait a bunch of fundamentalist Muslims into gunfight with blasphemous pictures of Mohammed, and this is not about faith?
Could have fooled me.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)I freakin knew it.
Now we have to defend christian bigots on DU.
Great.
stranger81
(2,345 posts)There are no good guys here. Geller, Wilders and their ilk are atrocious people.
they are both disgusting
blm
(113,091 posts)the majority of DUers with that view of being against free speech. What a croc.
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)Please note the AFDI is HQed in New York.... not TX and not the South. This was obviously engineered to achieve these very results.
This is the RW using over-religious people for their own nefarious ends....again.
But the religion, which is what it is about, enables them. Religion is the problem. This scene would never have been enacted had the Muslims not shown how easy they were to rile up.... and hateful Christians had a method for making it happen.
blm
(113,091 posts).
TexasTowelie
(112,417 posts)One of the people attending the meeting was already speculating about the suspects having beards, carrying incendiary devices and calling them jihadists. Yet there hasn't been any actual news reports to support those statements. I wonder if any of my RW acquaintances were at the meeting?
jaysunb
(11,856 posts)Too many things that don't add up. As I ask in my other post, "why and who would assign a SWAT unit to the event.
There's a picture in the CNN story of the organizer posing with a SWAT team prior to the event.
Why are the reports and comments all calling the dead men, "gunmen?"
This shit stinks to high heaven.
tammywammy
(26,582 posts)They're called gunmen, because they drove up and started shooting.
jaysunb
(11,856 posts)Please excuse my ignorance.
tammywammy
(26,582 posts)I'd also read there were threats against this event. I know you can hire off duty police for events, but don't know all the details for this.
jaysunb
(11,856 posts)team prior to the event. A show of force type photo. I didn't realize taxpayer dollars were supposed to provide this kind of service. And don't SWAT team members go to great lengths to hide their identity ?
Nothing that I've read addresses who these supposed gunmen were or how the shooting happened.
This smells like a classic "false flag" to me.
Mark my words, this whole story will have a different read by morning.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)the event organizers were paying the city for them, also, SWAT officers don't go to great lengths to hide their ID's, at least not where I live, we all know who they are.
Algernon Moncrieff
(5,790 posts)Google "Theo Van Gogh" and "Molly Norris"
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Google the names Rubén García Villalpando and Alfred Wright.
Algernon Moncrieff
(5,790 posts)Were they harmed or threatened by people offended by drawings of a prophet?
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)blm
(113,091 posts).
Either way, the result seems very EXPECTED.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)violence so that the hate speakers come to expect retribution and thus might shut the fuck up? Please understand that denigrating speech toward LGBT people is a major stock in trade for both Christianity and Islam. Rick Warren, Obama's choice for the inauguration, had just called LGBT people criminals and pedophiles when Obama chose to elevated him. Each day, Popes, Bishops and preachers verbally denigrate LGBT people, make accusations against us and claim God hates us.
I reject your theory that violence is called for. Instead I simply point out that the LGBT community is morally superior to the religious communities that attack us, we are spiritually advanced beyond their petty faiths. So they attack, we make jokes about them, they attack, we draw funny comics about them, they attack, we create. Of course creation is an aspect of the divine while destruction is the definitive trait of evil.
blm
(113,091 posts)What I am stating is that Gellar's group of RW fundamentalist extremists CRAFTED their event specifically to goad the RW fundamentalist extremists into violence.
I don't let any hate-filled RW fundies off the hook for their extremism. They use their religious beliefs as a cover for their own criminally insane desires to hurt their 'perceived' enemies of their chosen 'religion'.
That is all - no one is excusing violence. Just not staying silent about the deliberation put into the roles being played by both sides.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)You think these people don't really believe?
blm
(113,091 posts)personal biases, and, in an increasing number of cases, their sociopathic tendencies.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)If someone says they believe, I have to take their word for it unless there is demonstrable evidence to the contrary.
blm
(113,091 posts)Many now claiming to be followers of Christ act nothing like the Jesus Christ they claim as their leader. In fact, they act the opposite. Today's Republican brand of Christians would side with the moneychangers and, citing stand your ground, they'd pull out their guns and shoot Jesus as a credible threat after he tossed the first table.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)There is more to the Bible than the story of Jesus and the moneylenders, and there's more to Christianity than simply the Bible. It is a widespread socio-cultural institution that displays quite a high degree of cultural variance. It is impossible, therefore, to define the religion propositionally. It can only be described very generally.
But that's neither here nor there, as how people act is not always a reliable indicator of what people believe.
blm
(113,091 posts)There is a huge difference between TODAY'S hate-based REPUBLICAN CHRISTIANS and the Christianity I adhered to from an early age that was based in emulating the life and teachings of Christ.
If you're going to pump brakes at that, then I would say your intention was never to read what I wrote as an example.
Really
.who would do that?
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)It is my contention that what you wrote is unintelligible, and indicative of a profound failure to appreciate the complex vicissitudes of culture and history, as well as a stunning lack of forethought.
First the obvious: there is no "correct" Christianity, least of all the type described in you. For thousands years, people describing themselves as Christians did things many would consider un-Christ-like, but let us stick to your words. The filth embraced by TODAY'S hate-based REPUBLICAN CHRISTIANS was first put to paper by YESTERDAY'S hate-based DEMOCRATIC CHRISTIANS in the mid 1800's, which was itself based upon the medieval scrivenings of LAST WEEK'S hate-based PROTESTANT REFORMERS. The conservative Christian is not an uncommon or particularly modern invention, and even the American strain of this notably volatile breed has been around long enough to develop a widespread following and relatively coherent culture.
TL;DR: their religion is no less legitimate than yours.
Now, onto implications:
You think that people who do bad things don't really believe because Jesus wouldn't do bad things. If we ignore for a second that Jesus (allegedly) did do bad things, and follow this back-assward logic to its colonic conclusion, you find a very nifty escape hatch through which religion may immediately jump if ever criticized.
But this isn't an especially accurate or particularly useful approach to religion. There's quite a bit of objectionable material in the Bible, objectionable pages in the history of the religion, and objectionable religious practices which are still embraced even today. But rather than tackling these problems head on, you're suggesting we simply pretend they're not real, or that they don't actually inspire people to do bad things.
You're also by implication claiming that everyone who has ever done anything bad has been an atheist. And, as an atheist, I appreciate that none too much.
blm
(113,091 posts)You can attempt to put words in my mouth all you want - I think you're posting for your own amusement and don't give a rat's patootie what anyone actually says in their posts, so you play to what you CLAIM is being said. Utter BS move on your part.
And I am an atheist, dude - one who cares little for your lectures on what I should think of the way I SEE PEOPLE ACT while claiming to be doing it in the name of their god.
Gee - I suppose you follow John Fugelsang and argue with HIS observations of Republicans distorting religion, too, eh? He's a much meatier target for you. He's even a public figure at this point. Have at it.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)Yes, that is what you clearly said. And it is a point I've roundly defeated twice now, yet you persist in presenting it while simultaneously claiming I've somehow failed to grasp the true meaning of your infantile ramblings.
I think it pretty well demonstrable that there is no such thing as "true" religion; and if there is no such thing as "true" religion, then you can't fucking well have a "warped" religion, either. The Fundies may profess belief in some truly horrendous, despicable shit, but these beliefs are no less religiously valid than those you or I may find more palatable.
And I am an atheist, dude - one who cares little for your lectures on what I should think of the way I SEE PEOPLE ACT while claiming to be doing it in the name of their god.
This is a discussion forum. If you don't like people disagreeing with you, perhaps this is wrong venue in which to air out your laundry.
No thanks. I avoid the Huff Po like the fucking plague.
Quantess
(27,630 posts)Keep it going, until the message finally becomes clear for everyone, that Americans still have the 1st Amendment right to make fun of and/or insult idiotic, primitive, religions!
Any Islamic extremist who doesn't get it, needs to get the fuck out of any of the hospitable western societies that allowed them to immigrate there without any consideration to the original cultures to which they emigrated. Western societies need to demand that Muslims (extremists like everyone else) respect women, respect gays, respect transgendered people, and respect our right to make fun of their dumbassed Mohammed.