'The idea that Greece partly deserves its fate reflects an order in which wealth trumps democracy'

[marmar]

from the Guardian UK:

The moral crusade against Greece must be opposed
Zoe Williams

[font size="3"]The idea that Greece partly deserves its fate reflects an order in which wealth trumps democracy. We should fight a narrative that enfeebles us all[/font]

‘This is our political alternative to neoliberalism and to the neoliberal process of European integration: democracy, more democracy and even deeper democracy,” said Alexis Tsipras on 18 January 2014 in a debate organised by the Dutch Socialist party in Amersfoort. Now the moment of deepest democracy looms, as the Greek people go to the polls on Sunday to vote for or against the next round of austerity.

Unfortunately, Sunday’s choice will be between endless austerity and immediate chaos. As comfortable as it is to argue from the sidelines that maybe Grexit in the medium term won’t hurt as much as 30 years’ drag on GDP from swingeing repayments, no sane person wants either. The vision that Syriza swept to power on was that if you spoke truth to the troika plainly and in broad daylight, they would have to acknowledge that austerity was suffocating Greece.

They have acknowledged no such thing. Whatever else one could say about the handling of the crisis, and whatever becomes of the euro, Sunday will be the moment that unstoppable democracy meets immovable supra-democracy. The Eurogroup has already won: the Greek people can vote any way they like – but what they want, they cannot have.

On Saturday the Eurogroup broke with its tradition of unanimity, issuing a petulant statement “supported by all members except the Greek member”. Yanis Varoufakis, the Greek finance minister, sought legal advice on whether the group was allowed to exclude him, and received the extraordinary reply: “The Eurogroup is an informal group. Thus it is not bound by treaties or written regulations. While unanimity is conventionally adhered to, the Eurogroup president is not bound to explicit rules.” Or, to put it another way: “We never had any accountability in the first place, sucker.” ............(more)

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jun/28/greece-europe-imf-democracy

[Kablooie]

1. Insisting on austerity is like lending water on the condition that it not be used to prime the pump.

[Initech]

2. Wealth trumps democracy.

Don't think it can't happen here, but that's exactly the path that we're headed down. Just like Greece, the billionaire criminals are taking our jobs, homes, pensions and everything we need to survive. They're tanking the global economy just to one up each other. They need to be stopped.

[JDPriestly]

11. Yes. And the TPP is one step toward just the kind of undemocratic union that those who

control the banks and investment houses and wealth can use to break OUR COUNTRY.

I strongly oppose the TPP, and this is one of the reasons why I so strongly oppose it. It will separate economic decision-making from democratic decision-making. It will render our democratic system, our democratic expression of will, meaningless, just as the EURO zone has rendered Greece's democratic expression meaningless. And Greece had to choose -- cheat on your numbers with the assistance of Goldman Sachs and others in order to get into the Eurozone or flail on your own.

Greece has ports and tourist attractions and historical sites that are wonderful. Northern Europeans need to control those ports, the seaways around the islands and the Greek geographical location. Northern Europeans are being downright stupid in their approach to Greece's economic problems. Downright stupid.

Which makes me wonder, especially considering that Germany, the stupidest of all of Northern Europe when it comes to Greece, what kinds of economic stresses Germany is hiding. Why is Germany, which benefited from American largesse, including debt forgiveness or delay in repayment, being so stingy with Greece? What is the real story here?

The attitude of Northern Europeans makes no sense to me knowing the history of the Mediterranean at least to some extent. It is just foolish. Dangerously foolish to let Greece fall apart like this.

[Angry Dragon]

14. +49,902

[daleanime]

3. Well worth the time....

to read.

[iandhr]

4. Democracy? There was a poll that said a majority of Greeks support a deal.

http://greece.greekreporter.com/2015/06/28/greece-referendum-polls-greeks-favor-agreement-yes/

[Comrade Grumpy]

6. Democracy? How about a referendum? Is that democratic enough?

[iandhr]

8. Have a referendum

I was only saying the results of might surprise some people.


Obviously a lot can change in politics my only argument once the Greeks might approve instead of reject deal

[Demeter]

13. Doesn't matter, Greece won't get the deal. It's already off the table

[zeemike]

9. Well I am suspicious of polls.

They claim to be scientific and based on that claim we accept them instead of a vote.
When you sample a few hundred people the sampling can be gamed, and if there is money in it chances are it will be.

[mythology]

5. The article is fundamentally flawed

It ignores that Greece spent a long time building this problem and still haven't come to grips with that.

The article glosses over that in an effort to ignore it. It's not that Greece is bad, but they have for a very long time they have been fiscally irresponsible. There are consequences for that, whether Greece likes it or not.

Are there problems with austerity? Of course. But it would be foolish for other countries to keep shoveling money at Greece.

[zeemike]

10. Austerity for the borrower and big gain for the lender.

Are the banks not rich enough yet?
How about they forgo the interest and settle for the principle back?...would that lower their standard of living?

[hack89]

15. Other governments own the vast majority of Greek debt

the banks have managed to significantly reduce their exposure over the course of two previous Greek bailouts. Right now it will be the tax payers of EU countries that would take it in the shorts.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

7. Remember this old saying?

It's only money.

[Demeter]

12. More like PROFITS over People (and their dead bodies)

As long as the dead bodies are the Obscenely Wealthy who hoarded, I'm all right with it.

[Jack Rabbit]

16. I also posted this in Good Reads

Last edited Mon Jun 29, 2015, 03:20 PM - Edit history (1)

Yes, that is the exact mindset it reflects and it isn't my mindset at all.

If life has taught me anything, it is that the guys at the top have less idea what they're doing than anybody else. That is the justification they present for the people who are at the top being there.

Like Bush the Frat Boy and Dan Quayle.

And, more to the point here, people like Legs Dimon and Pretty Boy Lloyd -- and especially Pretty Boy Lloyd, in this case, since it was he and his underlings at Goldman Sachs who helped the Greek government hide its liabilities while it borrowed money from central banks. This is fraud, and the reason Pretty Boy Lloyd isn't in jail for it is because Lanny Breuer and Eric Holder didn't want to put him there because he helped their boss become president.

As far as I am concerned, Greece's creditors should get their money back by asking Pretty Boy Lloyd for it. Perhaps a few Greek politicians, too, but not that are currently in power. The Greek people should not have to suffer the consequences for the criminal dealings of this or that former minister in collusion with some crooked bankers. We know austerity is no way to bring a nation to prosperity. What is needed is a plan for that, not a plan for sadistically punishing the people for electing to a socialist government that puts the welfare of real people ahead of the welfare of artificial persons, headed by imbeciles who think banks create wealth by making a loan, whether the money actually there or not.

No, my dear fellow evil DUers. It wasn't the Greek people who created the mess we're in now. Crooked bankers did, and crooked bankers should pay for cleaning it up.

For me, I stand with the Greek people and their current government. Let the bankers suck lemons.

Updated to link to a video thread.

[Android3.14]

17. Well, yes and no

If Greece is a representative government (it is), then the people are responsible for how their government responds. So "yes" in the sense that people are responsible for the consequences for the decisions they make. As far as deserving the bad things that are happening to them, I doubt few thinking people would agree. It's like saying a man who loses his house because he cannot pay the mortgage deserves to be homeless.

No one thinks that, but neither would a reasonable person think the man should continue living in the house he cannot afford.

For Greece, in the event they declare bankruptcy, this means no one will loan them money moving forward.

[passiveporcupine]

18. I wish Greece could pull an Iceland

but because they are part of the EU, they probably cannot.