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This message was self-deleted by its author (anobserver2) on Sun Mar 25, 2018, 09:20 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.
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hifiguy
(33,688 posts)It is a material fact of great importance.
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emulatorloo
(44,261 posts)I agree with you, Jeb Bush would be dangerous to the U.S. If he were to win the Presidential election.
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Adrahil
(13,340 posts)So a CIA agent doing so would be illegal.
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ljm2002
(10,751 posts)...before he became President, yes, you are correct.
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ljm2002
(10,751 posts)...it is true, there was no secret about his being head of the CIA.
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)msanthrope
(37,549 posts)discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,483 posts)Only a small fraction of agency personnel work as covert operatives. Of course even the housekeeping crew have top secret clearance.
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JonLP24
(29,322 posts)Last edited Sat Jul 4, 2015, 01:14 AM - Edit history (1)
Official cover is more of a get of jail free card "diplomatic immunity" or you're a USAID employee -- something with a state department label. Anything less is non-official cover so he's probably a CIA agent.
emulatorloo
(44,261 posts)JonLP24
(29,322 posts)JonLP24
(29,322 posts)I'm fairly certain Paul Bremmer is or was a CIA agent.
CIA Headquarters -- the George Bush Center for Intelligence in Langley, Va.
peaking of funds, the CIA budget is secret and the agency is allowed to keep its staffing, organizational structure, salaries and number of employees secret under an act passed in 1949. Here's what we do know: In 1997, the total budget for all U.S. government intelligence and intelligence-related activities (of which the CIA is a part) was $26.6 billion. That was the first year the figure had been made public. In 1998, the budget was $26.7 billion. The intelligence budgets for all other years remain classified. On the staffing front, the CIA employs about 20,000 people.
<snip>
Most of the agency's overseas officers are under official cover, meaning they pose as employees of another government agency, such as the state department. A much smaller number are under nonofficial cover or NOC (pronounced "knock" . This means they usually pose as employees of real international corporations, employees of fake companies or as students. Valerie Plame worked as a NOC, posing as the employee of a shell company in Boston called Brewster-Jennings. NOC is more dangerous than having an official cover, because if NOCs are caught by a foreign intelligence service, they have no diplomatic immunity to protect them from prosecution in that country.
In a newspaper interview, an anonymous source said that he posed as a mid-level executive at multinational corporations while collecting intelligence overseas for more than a decade. He worked several years as a business consultant before joining the agency, giving him a great resume for the NOC program. Senior executives at his cover employer's were aware of his real job, but his coworkers day-to-day were not. He carried out the normal duties that someone in his cover job would do, once even working on a $2 million deal. However, he also often spent three or four nights a week holding clandestine meetings.
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The vast majority of the agencys overseas officers are under what is known as official cover, which means they are posing as employees of another government agency. The State Department allows hundreds of its positions in embassies around the world to be occupied by CIA officers representing themselves as diplomats.
A rarer and more dangerous job category is nonofficial cover or NOC (pronounced knock) in which CIA officers pose as employees of international corporations, as scientists or as members of other professions. Such covers tend to provide a plausible reason to work long periods overseas and come in contact with foreign nationals the agency wants to recruit.
http://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/cias-secret-agents-hide-under-a-variety-of-covers/
I imagine most of Dyncorp, Boeing, Academi board of directors, Booze Allen Hamilton, and US Embassies are CIA agents. Ambassadors certainly. Ambassador e-mail to Ambassador is CIA agent to CIA agent. Most of the time or a lot of the times they don't use alias or switch to their name, meet enough of people in the world for a long time people are going to eventually figure it out. Also I'd add in some Fundamentalist Pentecostal Evangelists such as Kenneth Haywood. The Door Christian Fellowship has Ministries in over 70 countries. Perfect cover but not official cover.
I think it becomes somewhat obvious knowing what to look for.
BERLIN - The US Embassy in Berlin is next to the Brandenburg Gate and directly overlooks both the Bundestag (Federal Parliament) and Angela Merkels Chancellery. As reported by Der Spiegel, the surveillance site on the embassy roof (outline in red) has been used to target German government and business communications.
MADRID The US is the subject of severe criticism by Spanish authorities over reports of the secret mass surveillance of citizens. The Snowden documents reveal that anywhere up to 3.5 million call records have been intercepted in a single day. The US ambassador in Madrid was summoned by the secretary of state to respond to allegations.
HAVANA Despite having no official embassy in Cuba since 1961, Havana is shown as a covert collection site on the 2010 "SCS Global Presence" list provided by Edward Snowden, and is described as a "staffed location". In lieu of an embassy, the US has what is called a United States Interests Section in Havana" - which is located inside the Swiss embassy.
http://www.duncancampbell.org/images/US_consulate,_Geneva.jpg
GENEVA - The US embassy in Geneva over looks the United Nations headquarters and legations has at least one full floor (windowless) for shielded processing equipment. Edward Snowden was employed by the CIA in Geneva for several years and is understood to have helped operate this covert site.
CARACAS - The US embassy in the Venezuelan capital is shows two sheds visible on the right-hand side as well as a large windowless middle roof construction.
CARACAS - The aerial view of the embassy shows numerous rooftop structures, the embassy faces toward the centre of Caracas and three and a half miles for the National Assemby.
Mexico City - A view of the US embassy in Mexico from the ground showing the rooftop shed.
http://www.duncancampbell.org/content/embassy-spy-centre-network
I'd say USAID, DEA, anything with a front are probably CIA agents. There was a vaccine drive in Pakistan with doctors testing the blood to see if Bin Laden was for sure in the area based on DNA of the children. Anyone with a PHD with some kind of position. Sometimes pose as a freelance journalist.
I probably saw a lot of CIA agents at the Zone 2 DFAC in Camp Arif Jan, Kuwait and didn't know it. A lot of civilian & government contractors ate there when I was detailed there
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JonLP24
(29,322 posts)and saw she is married to Cass Sunstein confirmed me suspicions and knew he was a bad but Cass Sunstein -- definitely a CIA agent himself.
Cass Sunstein
On January 7, 2009, the Wall Street Journal reported that Sunstein would be named to head the White House Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs (OIRA).[9] That news generated controversy among progressive legal scholars[10] and environmentalists.[11] Sunstein's confirmation was long blocked because of controversy over allegations about his political and academic views. On September 9, 2009, the Senate voted for cloture[12] on Sunstein's nomination as Administrator of the Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs, Office of Management and Budget. The motion passed in a 6335 vote. The Senate confirmed Sunstein on September 10, 2009 in a 5740 vote.
(OIRA was an agency created by Reagan made up mostly of economists & lobbyists where proposed regulations have to go through them for approval where they are usually scaled back. A recent example are Oil Train Regulations from the DOT)
<snip>
Sunstein's 2006 book, Infotopia: How Many Minds Produce Knowledge, explores methods for aggregating information; it contains discussions of prediction markets, open-source software, and wikis. Sunstein's 2004 book, The Second Bill of Rights: FDR's Unfinished Revolution and Why We Need It More than Ever, advocates the Second Bill of Rights proposed by Franklin D. Roosevelt. Among these rights are a right to an education, a right to a home, a right to health care, and a right to protection against monopolies; Sunstein argues that the Second Bill of Rights has had a large international impact and should be revived in the United States. His 2001 book, Republic.com, argued that the Internet may weaken democracy because it allows citizens to isolate themselves within groups that share their own views and experiences, and thus cut themselves off from any information that might challenge their beliefs, a phenomenon known as cyberbalkanization. He recanted many of the views expressed in the book before his confirmation as administrator of the Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs in order to receive Senate confirmation. Asked by Rudy Takala if Sunstein's views nonetheless persisted in the Obama administration, U.S. Federal Communications Commission Commissioner Michael O'Rielly eluded the question, answering, "Everybody needs a nudge, right?" [13]
<snip>
Military commissions
In 2002, at the height of controversy over Bush's creation of military commissions without Congressional approval, Sunstein stepped forward to insist, "Under existing law, President George W. Bush has the legal authority to use military commissions" and that "President Bush's choice stands on firm legal ground." Sunstein scorned as "ludicrous" an argument from law professor George P. Fletcher, who believed that the Supreme Court would find Bush's military commissions without any legal basis.[24]
First Amendment
In his book Democracy and the Problem of Free Speech Sunstein says there is a need to reformulate First Amendment law. He thinks that the current formulation, based on Justice Holmes' conception of free speech as a marketplace disserves the aspirations of those who wrote Americas founding document.[25] The purpose of this reformulation would be to reinvigorate processes of democratic deliberation, by ensuring greater attention to public issues and greater diversity of views.[26] He is concerned by the present situation in which like-minded people speak or listen mostly to one another,[27] and thinks that in light of astonishing economic and technological changes, we must doubt whether, as interpreted, the constitutional guarantee of free speech is adequately serving democratic goals.[28] He proposes a New Deal for speech [that] would draw on Justice Brandeis' insistence on the role of free speech in promoting political deliberation and citizenship.[26] Sunstein's view in effect casts rights as mere means to the ends of whatever sector most fully controls the state as "desirable", amounting in effect to neo-McCarthyist rearrogation of free speech from the realm of inalienable right to state-awarded privilege, earning him severe criticisms (see below); one commenter observed, "...Sunstein is the lead author of a 2009 article, published in the Journal of Political Philosophy, that is so riddled with contradictions, lapses in logic, non-sequiturs, and other apparent absurdities--including the open advocacy of illegal acts by government officials, and the suggestion that it may one day be necessary to repeal the First Amendment and ban 'conspiracy theories'--that it would likely flunk its author out of Political Philosophy 101." [29]
<snip>
"Conspiracy Theories" and government infiltration
Sunstein co-authored a 2008 paper with Adrian Vermeule, titled "Conspiracy Theories," dealing with the risks and possible government responses to conspiracy theories resulting from "cascades" of faulty information within groups that may ultimately lead to violence. In this article they wrote, "The existence of both domestic and foreign conspiracy theories, we suggest, is no trivial matter, posing real risks to the governments antiterrorism policies, whatever the latter may be." They go on to propose that, "the best response consists in cognitive infiltration of extremist groups",[34] where they suggest, among other tactics, "Government agents (and their allies) might enter chat rooms, online social networks, or even real-space groups and attempt to undermine percolating conspiracy theories by raising doubts about their factual premises, causal logic or implications for political action."[34] They refer, several times, to groups that promote the view that the US Government was responsible or complicit in the September 11 attacks as "extremist groups."
The authors declare that there are five responses a government can take toward conspiracy theories: "We can readily imagine a series of possible responses. (1) Government might ban conspiracy theorizing. (2) Government might impose some kind of tax, financial or otherwise, on those who disseminate such theories. (3) Government might itself engage in counterspeech, marshaling arguments to discredit conspiracy theories. (4) Government might formally hire credible private parties to engage in counterspeech. (5) Government might engage in informal communication with such parties, encouraging them to help." However, the authors advocate that each "instrument has a distinctive set of potential effects, or costs and benefits, and each will have a place under imaginable conditions. However, our main policy idea is that government should engage in cognitive infiltration of the groups that produce conspiracy theories, which involves a mix of (3), (4) and (5)."
Sunstein and Vermeule also analyze the practice of recruiting "nongovernmental officials"; they suggest that "government can supply these independent experts with information and perhaps prod them into action from behind the scenes," further warning that "too close a connection will be self-defeating if it is exposed."[34] Sunstein and Vermeule argue that the practice of enlisting non-government officials, "might ensure that credible independent experts offer the rebuttal, rather than government officials themselves. There is a tradeoff between credibility and control, however. The price of credibility is that government cannot be seen to control the independent experts." This position has been criticized by some commentators[35][36] who argue that it would violate prohibitions on government propaganda aimed at domestic citizens.[37] Sunstein and Vermeule's proposed infiltrations have also been met by sharply critical scholarly critiques.[38][39][40][41]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cass_Sunstein
"cognitive infiltration"
Cass Sunstein has long been one of Barack Obamas closest confidants. Often mentioned as a likely Obama nominee to the Supreme Court, Sunstein is currently Obamas head of the Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs where, among other things, he is responsible for overseeing policies relating to privacy, information quality, and statistical programs. In 2008, while at Harvard Law School, Sunstein co-wrote a truly pernicious paper proposing that the U.S. Government employ teams of covert agents and pseudo-independent advocates to cognitively infiltrate online groups and websites as well as other activist groups which advocate views that Sunstein deems false conspiracy theories about the Government. This would be designed to increase citizens faith in government officials and undermine the credibility of conspiracists. The papers abstract can be read, and the full paper downloaded, here.
Sunstein advocates that the Governments stealth infiltration should be accomplished by sending covert agents into chat rooms, online social networks, or even real-space groups. He also proposes that the Government make secret payments to so-called independent credible voices to bolster the Governments messaging (on the ground that those who dont believe government sources will be more inclined to listen to those who appear independent while secretly acting on behalf of the Government). This program would target those advocating false conspiracy theories, which they define to mean: an attempt to explain an event or practice by reference to the machinations of powerful people, who have also managed to conceal their role. Sunsteins 2008 paper was flagged by this blogger, and then amplified in an excellent report by Raw Storys Daniel Tencer.
http://www.salon.com/2010/01/15/sunstein_2/
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leveymg
(36,418 posts)Last edited Sun Jul 5, 2015, 01:07 PM - Edit history (1)
Gov't by spooks seems to have become the New Normal, at least in the parallel universe of TV.
alc
(1,151 posts)But we should demand to know everything. And if we don't get answers we should not vote for that person. At least for federal office if someone doesn't want their life to be an open book they should not run. With over 300 million people we should be able to find a little over 500 who are willing to say "i have nothing to hide" and still want to and are capable of representing us in government. And who don't have a secret that may influence their actions or even give the appearance of influence if they happen to come out.
As for the CIA, if there's a reason the voters shouldn't know, that's a reason for that individual to not hold office. Someone knows (probably many people) and we shouldn't have people in office with a secret that the public shouldn't know. Whether it's because the person is more subject to blackmail or assassination, or they have unknown relationships or responsibilities (e.g. still work for CIA but in Congress) or any number of other reasons, they should not be in Congress with that secret.
Octafish
(55,745 posts)So what? Here's what:
The Kennedy Assassination:
The Nixon-Bush Connection
by Paul Kangas
Note: All references to "George Bush" refer to George Herbert Walker Bush, Father of George "Dubya" Bush who was "elected" pResident by a 5 to 4 vote of the Supreme Court.
A newly discovered FBI document reveals that George Bush was directly involved in the 1963 murder of President John Kennedy. The document places Bush working with the now-famous CIA agent, Felix Rodriguez, recruiting right-wing Cuban exiles for the invasion of Cuba. It was Bush's CIA job to organize the Cuban community in Miami for the invasion. The Cubans were trained as marksmen by the CIA. Bush at that time lived in Texas. Hopping from Houston to Miami weekly, Bush spent 1960 and '61 recruiting Cubans in Miami for the invasion. That is how he met Felix Rodriguez.
You may remember Rodriguez as the Iran-contra CIA agent who received the first phone call telling the world the CIA plane flown by Gene Hasenfus had crashed in Nicaragua. As soon as Rodriguez heard that the plane crashed, he called his long-time CIA supervisor, George Bush. Bush denied being in the contra loop, but investigators recently obtained copies of Oliver North's diary, which documents Bush's role as a CIA supervisor of the contra supply network.
In 1988 Bush told Congress he knew nothing about the illegal supply flights until 1987, yet North's diary shows Bush at the first planning meeting Aug. 6, 1985. Bush's "official" log placed him somewhere else. Such double sets of logs are intended to hide Bush's real role in the CIA; to provide him with "plausible deniability." The problem is, it fell apart because too many people, like North and Rodriguez, have kept records that show Bush's CIA role back to the 1961 invasion of Cuba. (Source: The Washington Post, 7/10/90).
That is exactly how evidence was uncovered placing George Bush working with Felix Rodriguez when JFK was killed. A memo from FBI head J. Edgar Hoover was found, stating that, "Mr. George Bush of the CIA had been briefed on November 23rd, 1963 about the reaction of anti-Castro Cuban exiles in Miami to the assassination of President Kennedy. (Source: The Nation, 8/13/88).
CONTINUED...
http://www.sumeria.net/politics/kennedy.html
Then there's the time that 2000 election in Florida had GOP insider help:
SOURCE: http://mediastudy.com/articles/bushcoup.html
"A republic, if you can keep it."
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