Am I the only one irked by the never-ending Nazi-comparisons of Germans re Greece?

[DetlefK]

We get "Sieg Heil!"-jokes here on DU... Ominous warnings how the Germans are getting too arrogant again and bent on taking over other countries...

We have "Lebensraum"-jokes!
http://www.ironictimes.com/0771-p3.html

And those comparisons are valid because Greece is the true victim here! Ruthless bankers gave Greece money! And now foreign nations refuse to accept the will of the greek people how they choose to repay the debt! This is an attack on democracy!
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/07/12/1401057/-The-Greeks-for-one-moment-gave-populists-a-win?showAll=yes




1. The use of Nazi-comparisons is inappropriate. Just because the conservative party in the US consists of fascist fucktards who love money more than people and think science is just a hoax liberals use to look down on other people, that doesn't mean that conservatives in other countries are like that. The conservatives of Angela Merkel's party are actually closer to the US-Democrats than to the US-Republicans. What counts for Left in the US, counts as mainstream in Germany.
Germany has a social-democratic party polling at 35% and a socialist party polling at 5-10%! How much is the social-democratic wing of the US-Democrats polling nationally?
A few years ago, Germany was led by a coalition-government of conservatives and social-democrats, accounting for a total of 70% of the popular vote. What would it take for US-Republicans to form a coalition-government with the social-democratic wing of the US-Democrats?
=> If you want to talk about the motivations of german politicians and the Germans in general, fucking inform yourself and don't project your country's problems on the rest of the world. (And cut that paranoid conspiracy-theory bullshit how everything bad ever anywhere in the world can be traced back to the malevolence of the people you don't like.)


2. WWII was one of the biggest wars in history. The Third Reich was one of the most evil regimes in history. The attempted genocide of the Jews is one of the biggest crimes of history. I dare to claim that it's a bit over-the-top to invoke this imagery when talking about the financial difficulties of a country.


3. Greece has an old culture of tax-evasion, dating back to the days when they were under occupation by the Osman Empire and refused to support it with taxes.
Greece had bloated public wages and pensions, starting from the 1960s/70s, to keep the greek people satisfied, silent and disinterested in politics.
Greece had a massively bloated bureaucracy with cushy, well-paying jobs for all your cronies and family-members.
Greece lived beyond its means with massive military spending because of their rival Turkey.
Greece had a catastrophic debt. I cooked its books to pretend meeting the financial requirements to enter the Euro. Nobody from the EU believed them that their numbers were correct but they had no way of fact-checking them. Once inside the Euro, they started hiding their debt from the EU with dubious financial tools provided by Goldman-Sachs.
Greece had a massive debt, but that was no problem, because there was trust in the financial world that all the bills would be paid on time.
Then the recession happened, the trust evaporated and suddenly the debt BECAME a problem.
Greece could have said: "We will get rid of tax-evasion! We will start taxing the most profitable industry of Greece! We will root out corruption and fraud! We will get rid of unnecessary public-sector jobs! We will shrink pensions and wages to realistic levels!"
Instead, Greece waited.
They waited for someone to come up with a solution that would get rid of their debt AND allow them to keep their generous, relaxed and beloved way-of-life. "Taxing the 1%? Whoa, not so fast! Let's see how things develop first!"
Greece does not need money. Reforms lead to trust, trust leads to money, money leads to prosperity.
Investing money in Greece would have had no effect: The corruption would have sucked it up. (Don't believe me? What industrial products is Greece famous for?)
And Greece didn't enact reforms because it wanted to use them as a bargaining chip to extract concessions. Why do something for free if you can get paid for doing it?
If you can't grow your way out of a crisis by investing money, what is left to do with money? Pay down debts, decrease expenditures and wait for a time when investing money will lead to economic growth again.
That is a cold-hearted policy that doesn't give a fuck about ordinary greek people. Yes, I agree with you on that. However, the greek people don't matter. This is about the credibility and stability of the EU and the Euro. This about ALL the people of the EU. It wouldn't increase the stability of the Euro if member-countries knew that they could fuck up big-time and the EU would take the fall.


4. Germany was from the very planning-stage a proponent of a strictly regulated and stable Euro. The stability of the Euro was to be ensured with a tight fiscal discipline of the Eurozone-members. The other founding-members didn't like that, the Netherlands being the only supporter of Germany. The guidelines for stability were weakened and weakened until everybody except Germany was happy with it. But Chancellor Kohl really wanted this european currency, so he agreed.
The german position of fiscal discipline and austerity for stabilizing the Euro is neither new nor is it malevolence. We are all in this together and there must be consequences for hurting the community.
One year ago, Germany was actually lambasted for NOT openly leading the EU despite being the most powerful player. It was considered irresponsible for Merkel to let the others sort it out when in reality Germany would have the deciding veto and could upend anything.


5. Next time I owe somebody money, I will hold a democratic referendum within myself and set the terms of my repayment. And if the lender doesn't accept that, he's an undemocratic fascist who wants to oppress me and my act of resistance will get praise in the international press and will go down in history as the beginning of a world-wide populist movement that cleansed the world of capitalist, greedy bankers.


--------------------------------
TL;DR-version:
1. You are only allowed to talk about what Germans think if you have talked to Germans about what they think.
2. No more Nazi-jokes, you tasteless asshole.
3. Investing money in Greece is futile without reforms first. Austerity is the only thing that can be done right now.
4. The german fiscal approach to the greek crisis isn't malevolence. It's the same approach to the Euro they had 20 years ago.
5. Democracy is only the will of the people if it's the will of all the people.

[MADem]

1. Two points come to mind.

1. The Germans like to say that WW2 was caused because people were "too mean" to them following WW1.

2. The Germans benefitted enormously from the Marshall Plan.

I hate to quote Reagan quoting an old Russian proverb, but maybe they could try harder to find a "Trust but verify" solution. Maybe get a few more people around the table to hash something out.

Perception is as good as actuality to the casual observer, and the Germans are widely perceived--rightly or wrongly--as being a little 'shitty' about this matter.

Don't ask me to "defend" the Greeks because I am not interested in doing that. I'm simply talking from a "perceived" point of view. Maybe the Germans need to hire a good publicist to increase their "warm and fuzzy" quotient.

[DetlefK]

4. And how exactly are we supposed to trust Greece when it comes to spending our money?

1. Read the Versailles Treaty. France and Germany had been enemies for ages. The massive reparations were simply vindictive and so over-the-top that Germany had to destroy its own economy with catastrophic inflation just to be able to make the payments.
The inflation led to poverty. Poverty led to hatred of rich people (like Jews) and banks. This led to the conspiracy that the Jews are the heads behind a world-wide banking-conspiracy to impoverish, destroy and take over Germany. (Sound familiar?)
There was this misreading of darwinian evolution as meanign that some races are better than others.
There was this pseudo-science that Aryans are a distinct race. (They are not. They are a linguistic group.)
And then there was this traumatized, unemployed austrian veteran who hated communists.


2. The West had no choice but to rebuild Germany. They needed a bulwark against the Soviet Union. The Marshall Plan was a selfish geopolitical strategy.
And even if the EU made a similar plan for Greece: We would need people on the ground who keep an eye on how Greece is spending the money to make sure the decades-old habit of corruption doesn't ruin the plan. As I said: There is no trust left when it comes to Greece making economic decisions.

[MADem]

5. Insert sharp "tone" here:

WHAT did I JUST say????

Don't ask me to "defend" the Greeks because I am not interested in doing that. I'm simply talking from a "perceived" point of view. Maybe the Germans need to hire a good publicist to increase their "warm and fuzzy" quotient.

It looks like it will all be sorted out, at the end of the day. The Greeks may not like it, the Germans may still look "shitty," but that's life.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10141144541

[DetlefK]

11. If you want a "warm and fuzzy" german-speaker, get an Austrian.

No offense was intended.

I really lament the time lost in Greece. Greece could have started on its own with reforms and said "We busy here! You helpin' or what?"
Instead they waited and waited and waited for a deal that would allow them to avoid the hard decisions.

[MADem]

17. Fantastic clip!!!! I enjoy Conan and don't watch him often enough!!

I wasn't really annoyed, I was just joshin' ya a bit!

The Greeks are going to do what the Greeks are going to do. They're like the little kids who have done something wrong and who know they are gonna "get it" when they get home, and they're hanging around outside, the streetlights are coming on, all their friends have been called in to supper, but they're dragging their feet because they know they're going to get a bit of what-for from Mom or Dad when they get back to the house.

But people feel sorry for them anyway, because, hey, Zorba! And "Never on Sunday," and let's smash a few plates, and Shirley Valentine!

You can get the whole film on YT--it's well worth a watch if you've never seen it... "I'm going to Greece for the SEX!"

Anyway, the Greeks are like that unreliable brother in law, who means well, is always a great addition to a party, but who might not always pay his bills on time, and if you loan him money, you pretty much figure you're not getting it back!

[CTyankee]

27. Sorry, I won't set foot in Austria after their collusion with the Germans while crying

about how "they" were also invaded by the Germans. They welcomed the Germans with open arms and for the most part went along with the deporting of Jews.

I read The Lady in Gold about Adele Bloch-Bauer and was so infuriated that as late as 2006 the Belvedere Museum in Vienna was fighting to keep the Klimt painting because it was part of their "patrimony."

Patrimony my ass. That picture of a Jewish woman was stolen by the Nazis and kept by the Belvedere until Maria Altmann, neice of Bloch-Bauer and rightful surviving owner of that work had to sue the Austrian government to get it back. There was a settlement which was actually resolved by a 3 judge court due to some embarrassingly bad publicity about Austria during the litigation and Altmann got the painting back.

You can see Adele Bloch-Bauer today at the Neue Gallerie in New York City, courtesy of Ron Lauder who bought the painting and did what Maria had hoped for: he created an art gallery that would have as its anchor this wonderful painting.

[Bad Thoughts]

23. Dolchstoss and Ebert-Groener preceded Versailles

Sorry, but the indemnity in the Versailles Treaty did not make Nazis. Germans were already looking for scapegoats before the terms of the treaty were even made. Moreover, Friedrich Ebert made a fateful alliance with German conservatives to keep the bureaucracy and military leadership in place. These aspects meant that German governments, including Socialist-led, were required to call the elements of the treaty illegitimate and dispute them. This meant not just the indemnity, but also (and more importantly) the loss of territory to Poland and France. Refusing to pay the indemnity led to the occupation of the Ruhr, which led to the hyperinflation.

Maybe the problem would not have been severe if international creditors (mostly British) had given France a break. Germany wrecked the French economy, and the only means it had to pay its war debts was through the indemnity.

Ultimately, the Versailles Treaty did not make Nazis. Germans made them all by themselves.

[Igel]

8. The French also benefitted from the plan.

So did a lot of other countries. Some money was grants; some loans.

The problem is that people are resorting to stereotypes about the Germans and really trying to resurrect their past to be their present, and those stereotypes, those prejudices, aren't far below the surface.

A lot of what Merkel's saying isn't just Merkel. So yesterday there was a headline that Merkel said such and such; the first line of the article said "Merkel and Hollande said." The DU posts reflected the headline and that it was all the Germans' doing. (The article then went on to say that Merkel and Hollande said whatever *after* meeting with other leaders and were representing the group as a whole. People who read that far down still assumed that Merkel was the "whole"; all good things were Hollande's, the socialist, while all bad things were Merkel's, the German's.)

But the real problem is that Merkel's attitude isn't taken as Merkel's because of her training or her views. Often it's taken to be Merkel's attitude because of her ethnicity. While there are certainly elements of culture in her outlook, the general view is that a majority of Germans agree (but probably nowhere near 80%), and that one reason they agree is because it's a lot of money which, if written off, would need to be made up by probably German taxpayers. Again.

[MADem]

13. I'm going to refer you to post five as well.

Like it, or not, the PERCEPTION (and this is all I am talking about, PERCEPTION) is that Germany can bigfoot their way over anyone they differ with. It may not be true, but that doesn't matter--Germany comes off like "The Euro Boss" if not "The Euro Bully" because they are an economic powerhouse.

We all know that other Golden Rule: "He (or she) who has the gold, makes the rules."

If France was the economic powerhouse of Europe, with an economic engine that outpaced everyone else, it would be (someone other than, most likely) Hollande laying down the law.

It's not ethnicity--it's who has the economic clout.

[hack89]

15. Greece benefited enormously from the Marshall Plan.

they were the first country to get aid.

[MADem]

20. They may have been first, but they didn't get the most--not by a long shot.

In fact, UK (bombed out London) got the most:

The Marshall Plan aid was divided amongst the participant states roughly on a per capita basis. A larger amount was given to the major industrial powers, as the prevailing opinion was that their resuscitation was essential for general European revival. Somewhat more aid per capita was also directed towards the Allied nations, with less for those that had been part of the Axis or remained neutral. The largest recipient of Marshall Plan money was the United Kingdom (receiving about 26% of the total), followed by France (18%) and West Germany (11%). Some 18 European countries received Plan benefits.[3] Although offered participation, the Soviet Union refused Plan benefits, and also blocked benefits to Eastern Bloc countries, such as East Germany and Poland. The United States provided similar aid programs in Asia, but they were not called "Marshall Plan".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Plan

But, one more time, my focus is on PERCEPTION in this discussion. People will generally have more sympathy for the fun-loving, cheery reprobate than they will for the scolding, rule-enforcing schoolmaster. It's just human nature.

[hack89]

21. But it kicked off 20 years of economic growth known as the "Greek Miracle". nt

[MADem]

25. Sure...but for a time there, EVERYONE wanted to go to Greece!!

OOOoooooooh-PAH!!! Plate smashing! Dancing!

It was where the elite would meet...

And if you were real cool, and rich, you had your own ISLAND!!

[Fred Sanders]

2. The issue often mentioned and conflated is the unpaid debt of Germany from it's two wars. One of them had

folks in charge who were Nazis. Which was just a label for a form of fascism.

So it is a Nazi debt. Saying that the current German government are Nazis e.g. fascist is obviously wrong, but that is because folks in America using the term generally never know what the fuck they are saying about anything, or have any idea of what war really means when it is taking place on your own soil. They do not know what they are talking about and so one should not take great offence.

The corporate media speaking lies and distortions, THAT is what is offensive because it is purposeful and calculated, unlike the childish Nazi name callers.

Referring to the unpaid obligation from the Frist War as Nazi debt is clearly wrong, but who is going to teach folks in America about foreign history, there is no hope of teaching them their own history?

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

3. No rec from me.

Do we need Nazi jokes? no.

But I disagree vehemently with your notion that 'Austerity is the only thing that can be done right now.'
And with what seems to be your notion that the Greek vote was not 'Democracy' because it only included Greeks, not 'all the people', which, I'm guessing, includes Germans?

There must indeed be consequences for hurting the economy, but those consequences should fall upon those who actually created the hurt, not be collective punishment of entire societies, including many many people who had nothing to do with 'harming the community'.

[DetlefK]

7. So, retroactive jail-time for greek politicians of the last 20-30 years?

After all, they created this debt with their decisions. No, I have a better idea: How about jail-time for those who aided and abetted those politicians?

And the Euro is a european business. With their debt threatening the stability of the Euro, the Greeks made their debt a european business. That means that at least the 19 nations whose currency is threatened by the actions of Greece get a say, not JUST Greece.



Okay, I once had a thread about alternatives to austerity here on DU. 80 answers. 2 were at least partially useful, the rest was an echo-chamber how austerity is bad.

So, tell me: How would you invest billions of Euros in current Greece in a way that gets the economy going?
First you subtract 10% for bribery.
Then you subtract 10% for book-keeping mistakes.
Then you subtract 20% for embezzlement.
Then you subtract 20% for projects that fail and don't return their investment.
Then you face the bureaucratic red tape that prevents you from founding your own business. (Becoming a taxi-driver? Opening a hair-salon? Forget it. Those are professions with a limited number of licenses.)

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

10. Money is the problem. Go after the money - hit the 1%ers.

If you want to arrest folks, then arrest the bribe takers and embezzlers you list in your comment.

How would I invest billions in current Greece to get the economy started? The same way I'd do it in the US. Give it to the poor directly, perhaps as a universal income, while at the same time restructuring the tax code to impose 'austerity' on the oligarchs. 95% top marginal rate taxes on all forms of income, and graduated estate taxes to match, so that billionaires cough up 95% of their wealth on their death. Do that across the Eurozone.

[DetlefK]

14. THERE, you just said it!

"restructuring the tax code to impose 'austerity' on the oligarchs."

Reforms. Greece needs reforms. Greece needs to start collecting taxes where the money is. So why wasn't this among the first actions of Syriza? What are they waiting for?

Answer: They want to get paid for it. They want the EU to pay them for creating a better tax code for Greece.

[JonLP24]

6. I actually do know someone who knows a German

a German immigrant so in theory I could ask a German but I won't talk about what Germans think. On Nazis she did tell that she told her that her dad was a Nazi though said he had no choice or be killed. I don't know any more than that.

On Greece--I have two words Goldman Sachs

The deal with Greece was "extremely profitable" for Goldman. Christoforos Sardelis, former head of Greece’s Public Debt Management Agency, said that the country did not understand what it was buying. He also said he learned that "other EU countries such as Italy" had made similar deals.[52] This led to questions about what other countries had made similar deals.[53][54][55]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_government-debt_crisis


I can answer that question

Goldman Sachs Sued for Selling Libya Billions in "Worthless" Options

Goldman Sachs, the Wall Street investment bank, is being sued in London for selling Libya “worthless” derivatives trades in 2008 that the country’s financial managers did not understand. Libya says it lost approximately $1.2 billion on the deals, while Goldman made $350 million.

At the time, the Libyan Investment Authority (LIA), which invests profits from the country’s oil and gas exports, had assets worth $60 billion under former dictator Muammar Gaddafi. Goldman Sachs convinced LIA to buy long-term call options on six companies: Allianz, a German insurance and investment company; Banco Santander, a Spanish bank; Citbank, a U.S. bank; Électricité de France, a French state utility; ENI, an Italian oil company; and UniCredit, an Italian bank.

What the Libyans did not understand was that if the stocks in these six companies did not rise, their investments would become worthless. Instead the LIA executives were taken in by a trip to Morocco as well as "small gifts, such as aftershaves and chocolates” and an offer of an internship for Mustafa Mohamed Zarti, the brother of the Libyan fund's deputy executive director, in Dubai and London.

http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=15922

[polly7]

26. Great post. nt.

[ananda]

9. I guess it's a black ugly rose by another name: corporate fascism.

Maybe that's because they're not killing Jews and making it a racial issue.

[geek tragedy]

12. No one outside Donald Tusk and maybe François Hollande came out of this looking good.

Not only was the entire thing a shit show, but each of the major players managed to live up to their stereotypes--the EU dithered, the Germans were rigid and moralistic about 'order' and the Greeks were a chaotic, shady-dealing mess.

I'm very glad to be an American, after seeing what's been going on in Europe.

[pscot]

16. Allusions to the 3rd Reich are bogus

and completely out of line. But lending the Greeks money on condition they buy German weapons systems then complaining about Greek indebtedness seems a tad disingenuous, no? And if Greek fecklessness was well understood 20 years ago, and it was, why were they allowed to enter the EZ in the first place? And while German fiscal policy with regard to Greece may not be based in malevolence, taking a high moral tone toward the indigent Greeks looks self-righteous and unsympathetic at the very least. Austerity sounds well in theory, but it has driven Greek employment down, Greek GDP down and the debt ratio up, as Krugman has been warning it would all along.. Greeks are now being told that because they are morally inferior they must give up not only democracy but all control over their economic and national destinies. In some ways it resembles what was done to Germany at Versailles in 1919. Germans didn't like it then and the Greeks don't like it now. Because they are widely seen as underdogs being bullied by German bankers, they're getting a lot of sympathy right now. When Onkel Vladi comes riding to their rescue he will be seen by many as a Parsifal, which will do wonders for his credibility and likely provide Russia with a naval base in the Med. It is, as you say, a mess.

[DetlefK]

19. Why were they allowed to join the Euro?

Because no european institution at the time had the authority to look into greek files and fact-check the numbers Greece delivered to the EU. Nobody believed the Greeks but there was no hard evidence available that their numbers were fake. (Some of their numbers were even improvised: The Greeks themselves didn't know what the accurate data was and made something up!)

[Iggo]

18. What?

[LittleBlue]

22. It is difficult to miss the irony that modern Germany achieved European domination

where the Third Reich failed.

All comparisons end there, though.

[Adrahil]

24. I grew up to those jokes. So ya.

My mother was German. She was born in 1938, and was 7 at the end of the world. She immigrated in 1961.

Growing up, i was incessently treated to "seig heil!", called a "sour kraut," and forced to play a Nazi in every WWII themed playground game.

Yeah, you could say i'm sick to fucking death of equating Germans to Nazis.